ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Solutrean hypothesis , white nationalism

Reply
Old 27th August 2010, 01:09 AM   #1
Ferguson
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 898
Solutrean Hypothesis, Europeans first to America?

A long while ago, I remember reading an article in Discover about a discovery of European men in America predating native American migration, I think Kennewick(?) man or the Spirit Cave Mummy, dating to something like 7000 BC, and found with tools more similar to European tools of 16,000 years ago or so, rather than the tools of Native American tribes in the area. At the time I thought the evidence in the article seemed persuasive and perhaps there were multiple migrations to the New World, but haven't thought much of it beyond that or since then.

But apparently the "Solutrean Hypothesis" is in the realm of, or has been hi-jacked by, white supremacist groups/conspiracy theorists:
http://solutreanliberationfront.blogspot.com/
http://www.white-history.com/hwr6b.htm
http://johndenugent.org/2010/08/26/e...t-and-healthy/

Which has spawned responses from liberal blogs
http://michiganliberal.com/diary/169...ay-white-power
http://yafwatch.blogspot.com/2010/08...ows-foray.html
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com...hp?ref=reccafe

I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on this -- aside from the fact that whether "Europeans" of 10,000+ years ago (i.e. almost certainly not genetically or culturally "European" in the modern sense) were able to make it to America has no socio-political ramifications to modern legal and "racial" issues -- is this complete nonsense fabricated to buttress a political agenda (ala creationism), or is it a legitimate theory that has been hi-jacked for nefarious purposes (i.e. quantum physics and 'The Secret' et al.)?

Perhaps someone with an anthropology, biology, or archeology background can help me out here?
My knowledge is specialized in math/physics, I don't really have any university-level training regarding these issues, and would be grateful for any educated answers regarding the "Solutrean Hypothesis" and its validity, or the broader question of multiple migrations to the Americas (regardless of origin)?.

Given the kind of schlock on Discovery channel ("What did Aliens teach the Mayans durr?") I really don't know what to think of the original article I read (I no longer have it) but at the time Discover had some credibility in my mind.

Thanks and Cheers,
Ferg.

Last edited by Ferguson; 27th August 2010 at 01:11 AM.
Ferguson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 02:55 AM   #2
pipelineaudio
Illuminator
 
pipelineaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,257
I had a thread on the solutrians here too, it sure seemed interesting to me! No firm conclusions though I don't think
__________________
Don't fear the REAPER, embrace it
pipelineaudio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 05:42 AM   #3
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
 
Bikewer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 12,318
I recall seeing one of those National Geographic shows on the hypothesis, with "Euro" peoples "following the ice" at the time to eventually arrive in the Americas. Certainly seemed feasible...
However, it's also apparent that there have been waves of immigration from Asiatic peoples at several different time periods.
I don't recall anyone speculating as to the fate of the immigrants from the Atlantic side; you'd think that their numbers would have been necessarily small and perhaps they just died out or were outcompeted/overcome by the folks from the Pacific side.
I don't think there's any genetic indication of European influence in what became "native American" peoples....
Bikewer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 08:55 AM   #4
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 7,504
Kenniwick Man isn't European. The one group his skull matches best is the Ainu, which are inhabitants of parts of Japan since before the people we usually think of as Japanese got there from Asia. They tend to look more like white people than like their modern-Japanese neighbors (and did so more in the past before interbreeding started to bring modern-Japanese traits in to the gene pool), and are apparently more closely related to Europeans than to other people of eastern Asia.

Also, in a desert in China, there's a village's worth of white mummies and their tools and clothing and such, all of which are like those of very early European culture.

All that this means is that the two main groups that came to inhabit Eurasia, which we could now summarize as eastern and western, weren't always distributed exactly where they are now. Although the group that now dominates the eastern part of the continent has apparently never established a population in the West, the group that now dominates the western part has had representatives living in the East. Whether that means they got there first and then were overrun by modern-easterners in a subsequent immigration wave, or both groups coexisted in a sort of patchwork/mosaic landscape for a while until one just faded away, I don't know. But either way, there once were, thousands of years ago, more populations of "white" people in eastern Asia who had never been to Europe. So it's really no big deal for a few of them to have made it to North America from there, before the other group pretty much took over eastern Asia and became the source of all subsequent migration waves to North America.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 09:55 AM   #5
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
It doesn't really matter wether or not a few Europeans made it into the Americas, if they were there they weren't numerous enough to set up a founding population and there is no genetic data to support such a hypothesis anyway. Solutrean and Clovis are similar, but the same can be said of many artifacts from widely seperated cultures. It doesn't prove diffusion, it just proves humanity


Last edited by Marduk; 27th August 2010 at 09:57 AM.
Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 10:04 AM   #6
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,534
THe real problem is the Soutrean hypothisis is being used by White Supremists for their own nefarious purpose.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 11:42 AM   #7
Alferd_Packer
Philosopher
 
Alferd_Packer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,746
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THe real problem is the Soutrean hypothisis is being used by White Supremists for their own nefarious purpose.
as opposed to the SoulTrain hypothisis that White Men can't dance.
__________________
No laws of physics were broken in the writing of this post
Alferd_Packer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 02:00 PM   #8
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,964
Grr, lost my post. Oh well:

Genetics will eventually settle all this. They've recovered DNA from 14,000 yr old cave poop and mapped both mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome DNA in descendants of the first settlers in the Americas. It won't tell us about explorers who did not stay long, but it will tell us migration routes of who populated the place.

Mitochondrial DNA migration map
Y chromosome migration map
DNA recovered in 14,000 yr old cave poop
Y-Chromosome Evidence for Differing Ancient Demographic Histories in the Americas
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 27th August 2010 at 02:04 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 03:40 PM   #9
Ferguson
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 898
Thanks everyone for the informative replies.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Genetics will eventually settle all this. They've recovered DNA from 14,000 yr old cave poop and mapped both mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome DNA in descendants of the first settlers in the Americas. It won't tell us about explorers who did not stay long, but it will tell us migration routes of who populated the place.
I'm confident of that, but I do think the explorers who didn't stay long are still interesting from a historical perspective.

The white supremacist narrative is bizarre though, even if all the speculations are correct, it only serves as a huge Tu Quouqe to argue that the treatment of the natives by modern European colonists was somehow justified by an unrelated event in prehistory...

I'd just hate to see a legitimate historical hypothesis lose academic attention because of a few fringe nutters co-opting it.

I've read the Spirit Cave Mummy is a 9600 year old Caucasoid found in North America, but that a Native American group has blocked further research, is this true or a distorted version of the case?

Is the Spirit Cave Mummy a fairly conclusive evidence that Caucasians made it to the Americas prehistorically, or is there another explanation?
Ferguson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 03:42 PM   #10
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
Originally Posted by Ferguson View Post
I'd just hate to see a legitimate historical hypothesis lose academic attention because of a few fringe nutters co-opting it.
nobody say "Mormon"


Originally Posted by Ferguson View Post
Is the Spirit Cave Mummy a fairly conclusive evidence that Caucasians made it to the Americas prehistorically, or is there another explanation?
Caucasoids are not always Europeans, last I heard they were saying that the spirit cave mummy was Ainu. thats south east Asian, same as Kennewick
There is no evidence whatsoever of any Europeans making it to the Americas before Leif Ericson

Last edited by Marduk; 27th August 2010 at 03:47 PM.
Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 03:50 PM   #11
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,964
Originally Posted by Ferguson View Post
Thanks everyone for the informative replies.


I'm confident of that, but I do think the explorers who didn't stay long are still interesting from a historical perspective.

The white supremacist narrative is bizarre though, even if all the speculations are correct, it only serves as a huge Tu Quouqe to argue that the treatment of the natives by modern European colonists was somehow justified by an unrelated event in prehistory...

I'd just hate to see a legitimate historical hypothesis lose academic attention because of a few fringe nutters co-opting it.

I've read the Spirit Cave Mummy is a 9600 year old Caucasoid found in North America, but that a Native American group has blocked further research, is this true or a distorted version of the case?

Is the Spirit Cave Mummy a fairly conclusive evidence that Caucasians made it to the Americas prehistorically, or is there another explanation?
I don't know about that case but local Native Americans in WA state (my state) caused all sorts of problems and delays studying Kennewick Man. Some Native Americans are on a mission to protect their ancestral cemeteries and really don't value the scientific discoveries over their values of stopping grave desecration.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 10:06 PM   #12
Vortigern99
Sorcerer Supreme
 
Vortigern99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 7,905
There does appear to be some evidence of Solutrean (meaning a culture active in present-day Spain and France between 21,000 and 17,000 years ago) tool-making in some pre-Clovis Amerindian sites... but it is extremely thin.

In Cactus Hill, VA, "unfluted bifacial stone tools with dates ranging from c. 15,000 to 17,000 years ago" were found.

Clovis projectile points were fluted; Solutrean were un-fluted; both were bifacial (meaning each face is flaked on both edges alternatively). Proponents of the Solutrean/Amerindian hypothesis say the Cactus Hill points indicate a transitional style between the Clovis and Solutrean cultures.

Page-Ladson, FL and Meadowcroft, PA are also cited as being pre-Clovis sites. However, Page-Ladson lacks the bifacial tools associated with the Solutrean culture, so it cannot reasonably be used as evidence to bolster the Solutrean hypothesis, unless there's something I'm missing.

So, there is evidence of Solutrean culture pre-dating Clovis -- namely at Cactus Hill and Meadowcroft -- but it's so thin that it's practically non-existent. Bifacial flaking of projectile points is hardly a unique or ingenious invention, and could have arisen among the early Asiatic migrants through North America without Solutrean influence.

ETA: Here is a bit more about bifaces. They appeared 1.6 million years ago in Oldowan culture, and became more abundant in Acheulian (aka Mousterian) industries of Ethiopia about 1.4 - 1.2 mya. However, these are tear-drop shaped points, concave along the blade edge -- as opposed to the Solutrean and Clovis points, which are both convex. So Solutrean hypothesists have that going for them, at least.
__________________
"I'm 'willing to admit' any fact that can be shown to be evidential and certain." -- Vortigern99

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." -- Jimi Hendrix

Last edited by Vortigern99; 27th August 2010 at 10:14 PM.
Vortigern99 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 10:13 PM   #13
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 42,482
Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer View Post
as opposed to the SoulTrain hypothisis that White Men can't dance.
Well played. Nominated for pith.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 10:22 PM   #14
Vortigern99
Sorcerer Supreme
 
Vortigern99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 7,905
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Well played. Nominated for pith.
That's not pith, that's a pun. There is a difference, ya know.
__________________
"I'm 'willing to admit' any fact that can be shown to be evidential and certain." -- Vortigern99

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." -- Jimi Hendrix
Vortigern99 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2010, 10:31 PM   #15
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 42,482
Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
That's not pith, that's a pun. There is a difference, ya know.
Pithy pun.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2010, 02:30 PM   #16
Ferguson
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 898
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't know about that case but local Native Americans in WA state (my state) caused all sorts of problems and delays studying Kennewick Man. Some Native Americans are on a mission to protect their ancestral cemeteries and really don't value the scientific discoveries over their values of stopping grave desecration.
I can understand it though I disagree with it, from their religious perspective having all these researchers dig up sacred grounds or ancestors bodies and taking samples for study etc. I disagree with it because I think science and history are more important than religion, especially considering these bodies are sooo old, it's not like someone's digging up ma and pa.


Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
There does appear to be some evidence of Solutrean (meaning a culture active in present-day Spain and France between 21,000 and 17,000 years ago) tool-making in some pre-Clovis Amerindian sites... but it is extremely thin.

In Cactus Hill, VA, "unfluted bifacial stone tools with dates ranging from c. 15,000 to 17,000 years ago" were found.

Clovis projectile points were fluted; Solutrean were un-fluted; both were bifacial (meaning each face is flaked on both edges alternatively). Proponents of the Solutrean/Amerindian hypothesis say the Cactus Hill points indicate a transitional style between the Clovis and Solutrean cultures.

Page-Ladson, FL and Meadowcroft, PA are also cited as being pre-Clovis sites. However, Page-Ladson lacks the bifacial tools associated with the Solutrean culture, so it cannot reasonably be used as evidence to bolster the Solutrean hypothesis, unless there's something I'm missing.

So, there is evidence of Solutrean culture pre-dating Clovis -- namely at Cactus Hill and Meadowcroft -- but it's so thin that it's practically non-existent. Bifacial flaking of projectile points is hardly a unique or ingenious invention, and could have arisen among the early Asiatic migrants through North America without Solutrean influence.

ETA: Here is a bit more about bifaces. They appeared 1.6 million years ago in Oldowan culture, and became more abundant in Acheulian (aka Mousterian) industries of Ethiopia about 1.4 - 1.2 mya. However, these are tear-drop shaped points, concave along the blade edge -- as opposed to the Solutrean and Clovis points, which are both convex. So Solutrean hypothesists have that going for them, at least.
Thanks for this info, when people talk about the spear points and how "remarkably" similar they are, I really don't have a basis to know. I do know people say really stupid things about the similarity of pyramids (i.e. organized piles) though. My three-year old half brother builds pyramids out of blocks, I wonder if he's a refugee from Atlantis or had alien help .

So in a nutshell, the American "Solutreans" are most likely relatives of Ainu who crossed the landbridge, and the similarities between tools is interesting but not compelling enough to link them with the actual Solutreans?

I'm happy with that, either archaeologists will find better evidence to link to a Solutrean migration, or they won't. The beauty of science .
Also I've noticed now my googling leads me to this thread almost as often as some stormfront or "Aryan Studies" website, which I am also happy with.

Based on this picture,

I think the most compelling hypothesis is that the USS Enterprise crash landed in North America after falling through a time vortex, and we've actually discovered the remains of her captian, Jean-Luc Picard, who was forced to live out his days on the plains of prehistoric America.
Ferguson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2010, 02:43 PM   #17
The Fallen Serpent
Master Poster
 
The Fallen Serpent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,139
Originally Posted by Ferguson View Post
Based on this picture,
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...97edb55d4e.jpg
I think the most compelling hypothesis is that the USS Enterprise crash landed in North America after falling through a time vortex, and we've actually discovered the remains of her captian, Jean-Luc Picard, who was forced to live out his days on the plains of prehistoric America.
You sir win the thread.
__________________
You don't use science to show that you are right, you use science to become right. - Randall Munroe
The Fallen Serpent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2010, 10:19 PM   #18
Vortigern99
Sorcerer Supreme
 
Vortigern99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 7,905
Originally Posted by Ferguson View Post
Thanks for this info, when people talk about the spear points and how "remarkably" similar they are, I really don't have a basis to know. I do know people say really stupid things about the similarity of pyramids (i.e. organized piles) though....
The similarity appears to consist solely in the convex shape of bifaced projectile points. How "remarkably" similar they are is a subjective, individual opinion. Since bifaced points had been in existence for more than a million years prior to the appearance of Solutrean culture, it is not a stretch to suggest that some other culture in another region of the planet, in addition to Clovis and Solutrean, might also have developed a convex bifaced point.

Any suggested connection between the Solutrean and pre-Clovis cultures of North America is therefore purely conjectural.

Clovis point images (fluted): http://images.search.yahoo.com/searc...b-web&fr=moz35

Solutrean point images (non-fluted): http://images.search.yahoo.com/searc...x=wrt&y=Search

Originally Posted by Ferguson View Post
So in a nutshell, the American "Solutreans" are most likely relatives of Ainu who crossed the landbridge, and the similarities between tools is interesting but not compelling enough to link them with the actual Solutreans?
The Ainu trace their history back to Japan about 1200 CE; the Solutreans existed in France and Spain some 20,000 years ago. There is nothing to link the two as far as I am aware or have been able to find. Nor is there anything concrete to indicate that the pre-Clovis biface-point-makers could accurately be called "Solutrean". As to the tool similarity, see above.

Originally Posted by Ferguson View Post
I'm happy with that, either archaeologists will find better evidence to link to a Solutrean migration, or they won't. The beauty of science ....
The existing evidence is already pretty damning against the Solutrean hypothesis:
An article in the American Journal of Human Genetics by researchers in Brazil argued against the Solutrean hypothesis. "Our results strongly support the hypothesis that haplogroup X, together with the other four main mtDNA haplogroups, was part of the gene pool of a single Native American founding population; therefore they do not support models that propose haplogroup-independent migrations, such as the migration from Europe posed by the Solutrean hypothesis.

...

Arthur J. Jelinek, an anthropologist who noted similarities between Solutrean and Clovis styles in a 1971 study, noted that the great geographical and temporal separation of the two cultures made a direct connection unlikely. He also noted that crossing the Atlantic with the technology of the time would have been difficult if not impossible, an observation repeated by Lawrence G. Straus, who wrote that "there are no representations of boats and no evidence what- soever either of seafaring or of the ability to make a living mainly or solely from the ocean during the Solutrean."

...

Another challenge to the hypothesis involves the apparent lack of cultural or artistic practices being passed on from Solutrean culture to Clovis culture, for instance the style of Solutrean artwork found at Altamira in Spain and Lascaux in France.

...

In a 2008 study of the relevant paleoceanographic data, Kieran Westley and Justin Dix concluded that "it is clear from the paleoceanographic and paleo-environmental data that the LGM North Atlantic does not fit the descriptions provided by the proponents of the Solutrean Atlantic Hypothesis. Although ice use and sea mammal hunting may have been important in other contexts, in this instance, the conditions militate against an ice-edge-following, maritime-adapted European population reaching the Americas.

Originally Posted by Ferguson View Post
Based on this picture,
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...97edb55d4e.jpg
I think the most compelling hypothesis is that the USS Enterprise crash landed in North America after falling through a time vortex, and we've actually discovered the remains of her captian, Jean-Luc Picard, who was forced to live out his days on the plains of prehistoric America.
You win 10000 internets.
__________________
"I'm 'willing to admit' any fact that can be shown to be evidential and certain." -- Vortigern99

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." -- Jimi Hendrix
Vortigern99 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2010, 04:16 PM   #19
Ferguson
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 898
Originally Posted by The Fallen Serpent View Post
You sir win the thread.
I relish in the victory, but can one win one's own thread? This seems prone to malfeasance.


Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
The similarity appears to consist solely in the convex shape of bifaced projectile points. How "remarkably" similar they are is a subjective, individual opinion. Since bifaced points had been in existence for more than a million years prior to the appearance of Solutrean culture, it is not a stretch to suggest that some other culture in another region of the planet, in addition to Clovis and Solutrean, might also have developed a convex bifaced point.
Given the age of the prior artifacts, I'd have to agree they are similar but not "remarkably" so.


Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
The Ainu trace their history back to Japan about 1200 CE; the Solutreans existed in France and Spain some 20,000 years ago. There is nothing to link the two as far as I am aware or have been able to find. Nor is there anything concrete to indicate that the pre-Clovis biface-point-makers could accurately be called "Solutrean". As to the tool similarity, see above.
This was essentially what I meant by putting "Solutrean" in quotes, but thanks for the clarification.

Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
The existing evidence is already pretty damning against the Solutrean hypothesis:
An article in the American Journal of Human Genetics by researchers in Brazil argued against the Solutrean hypothesis. ... [snipped]
That is fairly conclusive, some dramatic discovery would have to take place to make Solutrean migration even remotely plausible, thanks for those excerpts.


Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
You win 10000 internets.
Finally! I can afford to move into a bigger e-apartment.

It's a shame no "Solutrean proponents" turned up to defend themselves, however. I guess some hypotheses are too fringe to even have a single proponent wander into JREF (perish the thought!). Surprising to me given the soon-to-be-released Dan Brown-esque novel on the subject. I guess it only became news to me because the author is local...
Ferguson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st September 2010, 03:02 AM   #20
Tumblehome
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,440
I won't defend it, but I will offer (from memory and from Wikipedia) some genetic evidence for it . MtDNA haplogroup X is found in about four percent of Native North Americans, concentrated in the northeastern U.S. and eastern Canada, and was determined to have appeared there about 15,000-20,000 years ago from a very small number of individuals (between 50 and 500, if I remember correctly). Elsewhere in the world, haplogroup X appears mostly in the Middle East and southern Europe.

But there's also a small pocket of haplogroup X in Siberia, although it appears that group arrived there relatively recently ("probably from the South Caucasus"WP), within the last 5,000 years. However, the haplotype found in them is actually closer to the North Americans' than the Europeans'.

So there you have it. Flip a coin -- or wait for further evidence.
Tumblehome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st September 2010, 05:26 AM   #21
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
Originally Posted by Tumblehome View Post
I won't defend it, but I will offer (from memory and from Wikipedia) some genetic evidence for it . MtDNA haplogroup X is found in about four percent of Native North Americans, concentrated in the northeastern U.S. and eastern Canada, and was determined to have appeared there about 15,000-20,000 years ago from a very small number of individuals (between 50 and 500, if I remember correctly). Elsewhere in the world, haplogroup X appears mostly in the Middle East and southern Europe.

But there's also a small pocket of haplogroup X in Siberia, although it appears that group arrived there relatively recently ("probably from the South Caucasus"WP), within the last 5,000 years. However, the haplotype found in them is actually closer to the North Americans' than the Europeans'.

So there you have it. Flip a coin -- or wait for further evidence.
Haplogroup X is not just one letter in the alphabet which links everyone with those genetics at any point in time, they are seperated by a long period
Originally Posted by from wiki
The genetic sequences of haplogroup X diverged originally from haplogroup N, and subsequently further diverged about 30,000 years ago[2] to give two sub-groups, X1 and X2.
I think you should read this
Originally Posted by from wiki
Overall haplogroup X accounts for about 2% of the population of Europe, the Near East and North Africa.

Sub-group X1 is much less numerous, and restricted to North and East Africa, and also the Near East.

Sub-group X2 appears to have undergone extensive population expansion and dispersal around or soon after the last glacial maximum, about 21,000 years ago. It is more strongly present in the Near East, the Caucasus, and Mediterranean Europe; and somewhat less strongly present in the rest of Europe. Particular concentrations appear in Georgia (8%), the Orkney Islands (in Scotland) (7%) and amongst the Israeli Druze community (27%). Subclades X2a and X2g are found in North America, but are not present in native Latin Americans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)
The haplogroup X claim you just made is the usual misrepresentation put out by woo sites, usually when theyre trying to trace the Atlanteans,
X is not the same as X2 unless youre willing to ignore the last 30,000 years, so you could flip a coin if you want, but its got to be a coin thats 30,000 years old
got any ?


Last edited by Marduk; 1st September 2010 at 05:33 AM.
Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st September 2010, 08:51 PM   #22
Tumblehome
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,440
Originally Posted by Marduk View Post

I think you should read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)
I've already read it, since it's the same page I linked to.

Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger.
Tumblehome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st September 2010, 09:52 PM   #23
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 7,504
Was the Solutrean idea ever really that Europeans had gotten to North America? I always took it as indicating that Europeans and some early North Americans has simply come from a common group that was also once widespread across Asia, so Europeans would have been from this group's western extent and the early North Americans would have been from its eastern extent. Did anybody ever seriously claim otherwise?
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd September 2010, 03:27 AM   #24
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
Originally Posted by tumblehome View Post
i've already read it, since it's the same page i linked to.

don't shoot me, i'm just the messenger.
.....STOP......MESSAGE GARBLED......CONSULT FACTS.......RESEND......STOP........

Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2010, 04:11 AM   #25
jsullivan
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by Tumblehome View Post
I won't defend it, but I will offer (from memory and from Wikipedia) some genetic evidence for it . MtDNA haplogroup X is found in about four percent of Native North Americans, concentrated in the northeastern U.S. and eastern Canada, and was determined to have appeared there about 15,000-20,000 years ago from a very small number of individuals (between 50 and 500, if I remember correctly). Elsewhere in the world, haplogroup X appears mostly in the Middle East and southern Europe.

But there's also a small pocket of haplogroup X in Siberia, although it appears that group arrived there relatively recently ("probably from the South Caucasus"WP), within the last 5,000 years. However, the haplotype found in them is actually closer to the North Americans' than the Europeans'.

So there you have it. Flip a coin -- or wait for further evidence.
The closest match found to the Native American haplogroup X haplotype is one case from Iran: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/
"We surveyed our Old World haplogroup X mtDNAs for the five diagnostic X2a mutations (table 2) and found a match only for the transition at np 12397 in a single X2* sequence from Iran. In a parsimony tree, this Iranian mtDNA would share a common ancestor with the Native American clade (fig. 2)."

This brings to mind the absurdity of how white supremacists like to claim they are alleged "Aryans"! When in reality the only true people that have any claims to being historic Aryan peoples are those in Iran and places like India (especially the Indian region of Punjab). So if you want true "Aryans" you'd have to get people that look like this:

Iranian weightlifter Hossein Rezazadeh (olympic medalist and world's strongest man)


And some Punjabi Indian people:



They hardly look "white" like the white supremacists like to claim, with their fake "Aryan" claims:


This above woman is Nordic but not "Aryan" at all, no matter how much the idiot white supremacists (who absurdly use titles like "Aryan nations") fools want to try to claim she (or those like her) somehow allegedly are!

As to further important and relevant issues regarding haplogroup X the best scholarly article discussing this issue is the following: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1226041/

"The network further suggests that the Altaian X haplotypes occupy the intermediate position between European and American Indian haplogroup X mtDNA lineages (fig. 1).
...
The analysis of the tribal structure of Southern Altaians has shown that the present-day Altaians have retained their native language and ethnic identity. They have begun to mix with other ethnic groups (mostly Russians and Kazakhs) only recently, so the interethnic admixture is estimated to be <5% (Luzina 1987; Osipova et al. 1997). The haplogroup X mtDNAs have not been found in populations of central Asia, including Kazakhs, Uighurs, and Kirghizs (Comas et al. 1998). Since the frequency of haplogroup X in Russians is extremely low (3 of 336; Orekhov et al. 1999; Malyarchuk and Derenko 2000; authors’ unpublished data), the recent European (i.e. Russian) admixture cannot explain the presence of haplogroup X in the Altaians. Hence, the results of the present study allow us to suggest that haplogroup X was the part of the ancestral gene pool for Altaian populations, being found both in northern and southern Altaians.

Recently, the mtDNA studies have shown that both northern and southern Altaians exhibit all four Asian and American Indian–specific haplogroups (A–D) with frequencies of 57.2% (Sukernik et al. 1996) and 46.8% (Derenko et al. 2000a), respectively, exceeding those reported previously for Mongolians, Chinese, and Tibetans. Therefore, they may represent the populations which are most closely related to New World indigenous groups. Since the detection of all four haplogroups (A–D) in an Asian population is thought to be a first criterion in the identification of a possible New World founder, the candidate source population for American Indian mtDNA haplotypes therefore may include the populations originating in the regions to the southwest and southeast of Lake Baikal, including the Altai Mountain region (Derenko et al. 2000b). The presence of X mtDNAs in Altaians is generally consonant with the latter conclusion.

Because the location and identification of the population that was the source of the founding lineages for the New World is a question of considerable interest, several studies on Y-chromosomal DNA polymorphism were performed recently to investigate Pleistocene male migrations to the American continent (Underhill et al. 1996; Lell et al. 1997; Karafet et al. 1999; Santos et al. 1999). It has been shown that the major Y haplotype present in most American Indians could be traced back to recent ancestors they have in common with Siberians: namely, the Kets and Altaians, from the Yenisey River Basin and the Altai Mountains, respectively (Santos et al. 1999). Similarly, based on a comprehensive analysis of worldwide Y-chromosome variation, it has been proposed that populations occupying the general area including Lake Baikal (eastward to the Trans-Baikal and southward into Northern Mongolia), the Lena River headwaters, the Angara and Yenisey River basins, the Altai Mountain foothills, and the region south of the Sayan Mountains (including Tuva and western Mongolia) was the source for dispersals of New World Y-chromosome founders (Karafet et al. 1999). It is obvious that we have now the genetic evidence that will allow closer determination of which Siberian population was the source of the population expansion leading to modern American Indians and will allow relation of the studies of migrations from Siberia to the Americas that are based on paternally inherited genetic systems with those based on maternally inherited ones."

So the main points to keep in mind are the following:

1) The Altaian haplogroup X haplotypes occupy the intermediate position between the European and Native American haplogroup X haplotypes. This means that the Native American haplogroup X has to have come from Siberia and the Altaians of Siberia not Europe (because had it come from Europe as people pushing the "Solutrean hypothesis" falsehood contend then the European haplogroup X haplotype would be in between the Altaian Siberian haplogoup X haplotype and the Native American haplogroup X haplotype which it again is not it is the Altaian's haplogroup X haplotype which is between the European and Native American haplogroup X haplotypes).

2) As to the presence of haplogroup X in the Altaians it has been shown conclusively that it is part of the Altaians ancestral (ancient) DNA and is not a recent admixture as some allege. Again the scientific article I quoted showed that the Altaians have retained their Indigenous culture, languages, ways, etc. and they have begun to mix only very recently (with mostly Russians and Kazaks) so the Altaians inter-ethnic admixture is estimated to be less than 5%. The scholarly article I cited than showed clearly that haplogroup X has not been found in Kazak people and that haplogroup X is extremely rare in Russian people with only 3 out of 336 Russian subjects tested possessing haplogroup X: that is significantly less than 1%! On this point an interesting thing to read is the following http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml regarding haplogroup X in the Altaian mongoloid people of Siberia "Its presence cannot be explained by recent admixture with Russians, among whom haplogroup X occurs at very low levels (3 out of 336 subjects tested). (Though unlikely, one could imagine that admixture could have occurred with a group of Russians rich in haplogroup X.)"

This writer tries to leave the door open to the possibility that Russians allegedly "rich" in haplogroup X could be the source of the Altaian haplogroup X; but again even he admits this is unlikely and not the best answer. The best answer is again http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1226041/ "Hence, the results of the present study allow us to suggest that haplogroup X was the part of the ancestral gene pool for Altaian populations, being found both in northern and southern Altaians."

3) The mongoloid Altaian peoples of Siberia not only have haplogroup X (in the correct haplotype that is closest to the Native American haplogroup X haplotype) but they also have all 4 main other Native American haplogroups that is haplogroups A, B, C, and D (i.e. haplogroups A-D). Thus Altaians are certainly part of the ancient Siberian mongoloid peoples that crossed the Bering Strait into North America and became the Indigenous Native Americans first to settle the land.

4) And also again studies on the Y-chromosome DNA of the Native Americans (that is from the male side, i.e. again the Y-chromosome) detail that; "It has been shown that the major Y haplotype present in most American Indians could be traced back to recent ancestors they have in common with Siberians: namely, the Kets and Altaians, from the Yenisey River Basin and the Altai Mountains, respectively (Santos et al. 1999)."
Thus clearly these Altaian men and women crossed over the Bering Strait and again further adds to the proof that the Altaian mongoloid people are the source of the rare haplogroup X in North America and that the nearly entirely discredited and refuted "Solutrean hypothesis" is completely false.

Some good videos refuting all these Eurocentric and white supremacist lies regarding the Indigenous peoples of Mesoamerica are done by the youtube user "Salsassin" in his youtube videos.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Salsassin

Specifically these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqMi9YDRlEI
Parts 1 thru 4

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXGDo-SqFec
Parts 1 thru 5

Also refuting the false "Solutrean hypothesis": http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2008/0...ypothesis.html

and also the great 2008 scholarly paper (already mentioned in this thread) by qualified oceanographers Kieran Westley and Justin Dix called "The Solutrean Atlantic Hypothesis: A View from the Ocean" which shreds apart the "Solutrean hypothesis" and completely debunks it on oceanographic grounds: http://www.scribd.com/doc/19002252/2...From-the-Ocean

Last edited by jsullivan; 13th September 2010 at 04:22 AM.
jsullivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2010, 04:22 AM   #26
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,227
Actually, while white supremacists _are_ stupid, mis-representing what they mean by Aryan isn't IMHO much of a refutation.

The term "Aryan" was actually in use as a generic name for the whole Indo-European population or language group, when some got the idea to base some racist BS on it. So, yes, that blonde girl would be very much Aryan in that sense.

The only reason that that sense got largely abandoned by the rest of the world is _because_ of the association with the nazis and other assorted white supremacists, but that doesn't mean it was some horrible mis-use of it when they first chose it, nor that they have to abandon the term just because everyone else doesn't like that use any more.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2010, 05:06 AM   #27
jsullivan
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by Ferguson View Post
I think the most compelling hypothesis is that the USS Enterprise crash landed in North America after falling through a time vortex, and we've actually discovered the remains of her captian, Jean-Luc Picard, who was forced to live out his days on the plains of prehistoric America.
Very funny comment regarding the USS Enterprise lol! However, on a serious note the issue of "Kennewick man" has been completely dealt with and it has been shown conclusively that "Kennewick man" is a Mongoloid of Asian origin (mostly likely from the Ainu people of the Hokkaido island of Japan)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokkaid%C5%8D

An interesting article talking about "Kennewick man" and court case issues started in part by deluded hateful white supremacist fools notes how their is a complete scientific consensus that "Kennewick man" was a Mongoloid Asian just like all other Native Americans and the white supremacists' myth of an alleged "great white migration" was nothing but propaganda lies of these racist groups that clearly want to try to excuse and hide the horrific treatment and even genocide that the Indigenous Native Americans suffered at the hands of European colonialists in the "era of discovery" starting in 1492 CE and on.

http://www.msaj.com/kenne021804.htm

Quote- Though several scientists are at odds over many details, they have theorized that Kennewick Man is actually a relative of the Ainu people of northern Japan. Sometimes dubbed the "American Indians of Japan," the Ainu are an ethnic group with Caucasian-like features (but note they are not Caucasian and all professional genetic studies on the Ainu show they are completely Mongoloid) that lived on the islands for an indefinite period before the ancestors of the modern Japanese invaded the island from the Korean peninsula.

"(Kennewick Man) is undoubtedly related to the Ainu in Japan," said C. Lording Brace, a professor of anthropology at the University of Michigan, one of the plaintiffs seeking to study the remains.

end quote.

http://dienekes.50webs.com/blog/archives/000532.html

"Genetic clustering studies always group the Ainu with other Mongoloids."

Any standard internet search of "Ainu and Mongoloid" will reveal the complete scientific consensus of the real scholarly community that declares clearly that Ainu people of Japan (including "Kennewick man" in North America) are Mongoloid peoples of Asian origin (just like all other Native Americans) and not alleged "white" Caucasoid people like only the few remaining white supremacist twits on websites like "Stormfront", etc. still try to absurdly claim nowadays (with no actual evidence, other than their own pathetic racist white supremacist garbage and false propaganda).

A good video refuting the white supremacist myths regarding "Kennewick man" was made by the youtube user "Salsassin"; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqMi9YDRlEI (Salsassin starts refuting the white supremacist myths about "Kennewick man" at 3:26 ending at 4:40).

In this segment of Salsassin's video it is shown that "Kennewick man" actually compares closest on "skull shape" charts with an Indigenous Eskimo skull. Also it is detailed that all ancient North American skulls fall within the Native American range overall, and that even the more extreme variations are still explainable as plesiomorphic features that evolved into the present Native Americans.

Salsassin also notes the famous Native American actor and activist Wes Studi and how he has a "long, narrow skull shape and his nose just jumps off his face"; which was the big alleged "point" one unknown Eurocentric twat "scholar" and now today's white supremacist fools on "Stormfront", etc. make a lot of silly noise about (Salsassin in general does a good job showing how craniometrics, a favorite "science" of racialists has been largely shown to be a psuedo-science and very, very unreliable in terms of modern/real science)! Also Salsassin notes that all the skulls in question have been found on the Western United States and Mexico not on the East Coast as would be needed for the fake "Solutrean hypothesis" promoters!

Wes Studi (Native American actor and activist); http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wes_Studi


Last edited by jsullivan; 13th September 2010 at 05:18 AM.
jsullivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2010, 05:28 AM   #28
jsullivan
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Actually, while white supremacists _are_ stupid, mis-representing what they mean by Aryan isn't IMHO much of a refutation.

The term "Aryan" was actually in use as a generic name for the whole Indo-European population or language group, when some got the idea to base some racist BS on it. So, yes, that blonde girl would be very much Aryan in that sense.

The only reason that that sense got largely abandoned by the rest of the world is _because_ of the association with the nazis and other assorted white supremacists, but that doesn't mean it was some horrible mis-use of it when they first chose it, nor that they have to abandon the term just because everyone else doesn't like that use any more.
I'm not the best person to bring the scholarly consensus on this issue; but from what I've always read (in reliable sources) is that true "Aryans" are only in lands like Iran, India, etc. Someone else here can bring sources and info I'm sure; as to Indo-Europeans yes there is a far relation. An interesting article: http://www.stephen-knapp.com/death_o...ion_theory.htm

Quote- Let us also remember that the Aryan invasion theory was hypothesized in the nineteenth century to explain the similarities found in Sanskrit and the languages of Europe. One person who reported about this is Deen Chandora in his article, Distorted Historical Events and Discredited Hindu Chronology, as it appeared in Revisiting Indus-Sarasvati Age and Ancient India (p. 383). He explains that the idea of the Aryan invasion was certainly not a matter of misguided research, but was a conspiracy to distribute deliberate misinformation that was formulated on April 10, 1866 in London at a secret meeting held in the Royal Asiatic Society. This was “to induct the theory of the Aryan invasion of India, so that no Indian may say that English are foreigners. . . India was ruled all along by outsiders and so the country must remain a slave under the benign Christian rule.” This was a political move and this theory was put to solid use in all schools and colleges.

So it was basically a linguistic theory adopted by the British colonial authorities to keep themselves in power. This theory suggested, more or less, that there was a race of superior, white Aryans who came in from the Caucasus Mountains and invaded the Indus region, and then established their culture, compiled their literature, and then proceeded to invade the rest of India.

As can be expected, most of those who were great proponents of the Aryan invasion theory were often ardent English and German nationalists, or Christians, ready and willing to bring about the desecration of anything that was non-Christian or non-European. Even Max Muller believed in the Christian chronology, that the world was created at 9:00 AM on October 23, 4004 B.C. and the great flood occurred in 2500 B.C. Thus, it was impossible to give a date for the Aryan invasion earlier than 1500 B.C. After all, accepting the Christian time frame would force them to eliminate all other evidence and possibilities, so what else could they do? So, even this date for the Aryan invasion was based on speculation.
...
CONCLUSION



This chapter provides evidence of the real origination of the Vedic Aryans. It also makes it clear that it is to the East, specifically the area of India, where the origins of advanced civilization and the essence of religion and spiritual philosophy can be traced. From there, the Aryan influence had spread to many other regions and can still be recognized in numerous cultures. Only a few open-minded people who look at the whole picture of this kind of religious development will understand the inherent unity the world and its history contains. Such unity is disturbed only by mankind’s immature, dogmatic, and self-centered feelings for regional and cultural superiority. We have seen this in the propaganda that was effectively used by the Nazis and is presently used by neo-Nazis and white supremacist groups who now employ the modern myth that the original location of the Aryan race was in northern Europe. Thus, they imply that members of this race are superior over all other races in physique, language, mental capabilities, and culture. This myth must be seen for what it is because there is no doubt that the real Aryan people originated and spread from the region of India and the Indus Valley, not Europe.

As N. S. Rajaram so nicely explains in Vedic Aryans and The Origins of Civilization (pp. 247-8), “To conclude: on the basis of archeology, satellite photography, metallurgy and ancient mathematics, it is now clear that there existed a great civilization--a mainly spiritual civilization perhaps--before the rise of Egypt, Sumeria and the Indus Valley. The heartland of this ancient world was the region from the Indus to the Ganga--the land of the Vedic Aryans.

“This conclusion, stemming from scientific findings of the past three decades, demolishes the theory that nomadic Aryans from Central Asia swooped down on the plains of India in the second millennium BCE and established their civilization and composed the Rig-veda. The picture presented by science therefore is far removed from the one found in history books that place the ‘Cradle of Civilization’ in the river valleys of Mesopotamia. Modern science and ancient records provide us also a clue to a long standing historical puzzle: why since time immemorial, people from India and Sri Lanka, to England and Ireland have spoken languages clearly related to one another, and possess mythologies and beliefs that are so strikingly similar.

“The simple answer is: they were part of a great civilization that flourished before the rise of Egypt, Sumeria and the Indus Valley. This was a civilization before the dawn of civilizations.”

May I also say that this corroborates the history as we find it in the Vedic literature, especially the Rig-veda and the Puranas. It therefore helps prove the authenticity of the Vedic culture and our premise that it was the original ancient civilization, a spiritual society, using the knowledge as had been given by God since the time of creation, and established further by the sages that followed. According to a recent racial study (The History and Geography of Human Genes), it has been confirmed that all people of Europe, the Middle East, and India belong to a single Caucasian type race. This means that they had to have come from the same source. Thus, we are all descendants of this great Vedic culture, the center of which is India. As more evidence comes forth, it will only prove how the testimony of the Rig-veda and the Puranas is confirmed, and will point to the area of northern India as the original homeland of the Vedic Aryans.

The point of all this is that even if Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc., all keep their own ideology, legends, and traditions, we should realize that all of these legends and conceptions of God and forms of worship ultimately refer to the same Supreme God and lesser demigods, although they may be called by different names according to present day variations in region and culture. In other words, all these doctrines and faiths are simply outgrowths of the original religion and worship of the one Supreme Deity that spread throughout the world many thousands of years ago from the same basic source, and which is now expressed through the many various cultural differences in the world. Therefore, no matter what religion we may consider ourselves, we are all a part of the same family. We are merely another branch of the same tree which can be traced to the original pre-historic roots of spiritual thought that are found in the Vedic culture, the oldest and most developed philosophical and spiritual tradition in the world.

In the following chapters this will become more apparent as we begin to take a closer look at each individual culture and religion, and various locations throughout the world, and recognize the numerous connections and similarities they have with the Vedic traditions and knowledge.

end quote.

All info I've seen in my searching calls the "Aryan invasion" ideology of the Nazis and other neo-Nazi white supremacists nothing but fake myths.
jsullivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2010, 05:30 AM   #29
Cainkane1
Philosopher
 
Cainkane1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 8,502
Originally Posted by Ferguson View Post
A long while ago, I remember reading an article in Discover about a discovery of European men in America predating native American migration, I think Kennewick(?) man or the Spirit Cave Mummy, dating to something like 7000 BC, and found with tools more similar to European tools of 16,000 years ago or so, rather than the tools of Native American tribes in the area. At the time I thought the evidence in the article seemed persuasive and perhaps there were multiple migrations to the New World, but haven't thought much of it beyond that or since then.

But apparently the "Solutrean Hypothesis" is in the realm of, or has been hi-jacked by, white supremacist groups/conspiracy theorists:
http://solutreanliberationfront.blogspot.com/
http://www.white-history.com/hwr6b.htm
http://johndenugent.org/2010/08/26/e...t-and-healthy/

Which has spawned responses from liberal blogs
http://michiganliberal.com/diary/169...ay-white-power
http://yafwatch.blogspot.com/2010/08...ows-foray.html
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com...hp?ref=reccafe

I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on this -- aside from the fact that whether "Europeans" of 10,000+ years ago (i.e. almost certainly not genetically or culturally "European" in the modern sense) were able to make it to America has no socio-political ramifications to modern legal and "racial" issues -- is this complete nonsense fabricated to buttress a political agenda (ala creationism), or is it a legitimate theory that has been hi-jacked for nefarious purposes (i.e. quantum physics and 'The Secret' et al.)?

Perhaps someone with an anthropology, biology, or archeology background can help me out here?
My knowledge is specialized in math/physics, I don't really have any university-level training regarding these issues, and would be grateful for any educated answers regarding the "Solutrean Hypothesis" and its validity, or the broader question of multiple migrations to the Americas (regardless of origin)?.

Given the kind of schlock on Discovery channel ("What did Aliens teach the Mayans durr?") I really don't know what to think of the original article I read (I no longer have it) but at the time Discover had some credibility in my mind.

Thanks and Cheers,
Ferg.
White supremeists aside there have been several discoveries of skeletons of not only europeans but of every seagoing variety of human being on the planet earth. Europeans thousands of years ago made their living by hunting animals such as seals who lived on the ice eventually followed the ice age ice sheets all the way to america. They mixed with the native americans already living there.

Ainue have been found and I read somewhere that an australian aborigini had been discovered somewhere in south america having arrived via raft.

It wasn't always that difficult to get here. During the ice age all you had to do was follow the ice.
__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

Last edited by Cainkane1; 13th September 2010 at 05:32 AM.
Cainkane1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2010, 05:36 AM   #30
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,227
Oh, Jesus Haploid Christ... just because I already said that white supremacist woo is stupid, doesn't mean I'm going to replace it with even more stupid and unsupported woo about some great civilization before Mesopotamia. Seems like these days just about everyone can't even get a boner without having to invent that they're the only race that invented everything and created human civilization.

There is no actual archaeological evidence that there was even the kind of agriculture to support such a civilization outside the Fertile Crescent at the time, nor even the most primitive kind of writing to support any large scale of human organization, etc.

Look, I'm not trying to make my race super-human. I know that my ancestors were running around in furs and used bone-tipped arrows back when the Sumerians were building a civilization and later the Egyptians were building pyramids and sphinxes. But the Indians' ancestors really have just about as much claim to greatness as mine, if we're talking even before the first cities in Sumer. Which is to say: bugger all.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2010, 07:07 AM   #31
jsullivan
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
White supremeists aside there have been several discoveries of skeletons of not only europeans but of every seagoing variety of human being on the planet earth. Europeans thousands of years ago made their living by hunting animals such as seals who lived on the ice eventually followed the ice age ice sheets all the way to america. They mixed with the native americans already living there.

Ainue have been found and I read somewhere that an australian aborigini had been discovered somewhere in south america having arrived via raft.

It wasn't always that difficult to get here. During the ice age all you had to do was follow the ice.

Actually no you are 100% incorrect and the scholarly sources (most notably the work of professional oceanographers and academics like Kieran Westley and Justin Dix refute your claims). http://www.scribd.com/doc/19002252/2...From-the-Ocean

First on "seafaring"; http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2008/0...ypothesis.html

Quote- The problem with Stanford’s hypothesis is that there’s no evidence of boats in the America’s from that time period, nor is there a genetic European signature in Native American populations. Stanford says that the reason why boats haven’t been found is that sea levels have risen since then and obliterated any trace of boats… convenient. Anyways, his idea is a bit out there, and not substantiated much. It is really possible that the reason why Clovis typology is unique is that arose in the Americas independently.
...
Arthur J. Jelinek, an anthropologist who noted similarities between Solutrean and Clovis styles in a 1971 study, noted that the great geographical and temporal separation of the two cultures made a direct connection unlikely. He also noted that crossing the Atlantic with the technology of the time would have been difficult if not impossible, an observation repeated by Lawrence G. Strauss. Others have pointed to a lack of evidence of Solutrean seafaring. Proponents point out that evidence of Solutrean-era seafaring may have been obliterated or buried underwater, as much of the coastlines of western Europe and eastern North America that existed during the Last Glacial Maximum are now submerged. However, Strauss excavated along the Cantabrian coast, which was not submerged at the time, finding seashells and estuarine fish at the sites, but no evidence of exploiting deep sea resources. In addition, the dates of the proposed transitional sites and the Solutrean period in Europe only overlap at the extremes.

end quote.

And a more important, oceanographic refutation of your unsourced views comes again from the scholarly work of professional oceanographers Kieran Westley and Justin Dix in their 2008 scholarly article; "The Solutrean Atlantic Hypothesis: A View from the Ocean" http://www.scribd.com/doc/19002252/2...From-the-Ocean

Quote- Admittedly, the Solutrean does overlap to a small degree with Heinrich Event 1 (more specifically, the Heinrich 1 precursor rather than the maxima of the ice-rafting event) and completely with Heinrich Event 2, during which ice extents increased considerably. Nonetheless, even if it were argued that the hypothesized dispersal took place during these events, there is still the obstacle that the Atlantic sea-ice was composed of discontinuous icebergs rather than a largely continuous and flat mass of ice, a platform less suited to the aggrega- tion of dense concentrations of marine mammals.In addition, these were drifting south and east with the dominant wind and ocean currents, as shown by the presence of North European and Canadian IRD in the Bay of Biscay (Zaragosi et al. 2001), directly opposite to the proposed migration. Fur- thermore, if dispersal occurred at Heinrich 2, this would increase the time gap between Clovis and the Solutrean to more than 10,000 years, weakening the idea that the two were connected.
...
Synthesis and Conclusion

The information above reveals a number of ob- stacles to the hypothesized migration, specifically concerning the mechanism of dispersal: movement along the edge of the sea-ice in the North Atlantic. These can be summarized as follows:

1. There was less sea-ice at the LGM than commonly believed, with large zones of the North Atlantic and, in particular, the Bay of Biscay experiencing less than 1–2 months of sea-ice per year on average. Thus, we question whether sufficient ice existed to permit the development of an intensively ice-based subsistence strategy or to allow hunters to travel all the way across the Atlantic within a single year.

2. The greatest ice extents of the Late Pleisto-
cene took place at Heinrich Events 1 and 2.

However, both events were characterized by low marine productivity, which in turn argues against a marine-based migration. Moreover, a migration during Heinrich 2 increases the time gap between Solutrean and Clovis assemblages to 10,000 years, while the Solutrean overlap with Heinrich 1 is minimal, i.e., very few Solutrean sites actually date to 17–18 cal ka BP.

3. The pattern of LGM ice cover raises the possibility that the annual ice melt pattern may not have been synchronous across the North Atlantic. More specifically, an ice- free channel in the central Atlantic may have expanded, splitting the ice-edge. If Solutrean hunters were indeed following it, they were more likely to move north than west across the Atlantic.

4. Dominant wind and current patterns were against the direction of dispersal. Although overcoming them was not impossible (i.e., by paddling or sailing), it would have increased the journey times making it less likely that any migrants would have reached the central Atlantic while the ice-edge there was intact.

5. Consistently high marine and ice-edge productivity should be regarded as a possibility not as a given. There is no doubt that marine resources existed in the Bay of Biscay and all along the exposed Atlantic margin. However, the main contention is that evidence for the level of productivity advocated by Bradley and Stanford (2004), particularly in deep ocean waters that characterized the vast majority of the hypothesized dispersal route, is simply not there. The well-documented dynamism of Late Pleistocene climate in conjunction with the sensitivity of a sea-ice based ecosystem is more likely to have resulted in much more variable productivity levels across both space and time. Although this can be argued to have been a driver for movement (i.e., migration in response to movement of prey), it can equally be regarded as a barrier (i.e., areas of low productivity inhibit dispersal).

6. Any migrants that made it across the hypothetical ice-edge corridor were confronted by a very different landscape to the one they had left, specifically one dominated by a continental ice sheet. This environment was a harsh and potentially unproductive landscape (certainly for the areas of exposed land), and we question whether there would have been any desire to stay.
...
In this instance, the lack of a corridor would imply that dispersal was impossible, or that the Solutreans were capable of deepwater, trans-oceanic voyages, without any terrestrial support. In conjunction with the lack of evidence for this capability and the archaeological critiques of this hypothesis (e.g., Straus et al. 2005), it seems unlikely that this dispersal event occurred.

end quote.

If you want it in video form: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHO4DfA0y_k

So to summarize the main things refuting your claim that all you had to do was allegedly somehow "follow the ice" to get from Europe to the Americas; the academics Kieran Westley and Justin Dix in their oceanographic study demonstrated that during the LGM the Atlantic sea-ice was again composed of discontinuous icebergs not one large flat mass of ice. Discontinuous icebergs in and of themselves make it difficult to cross (you have to somehow hop from iceberg to iceberg!) as Westley and Dix's stated more scientifically: "a platform less suited to the aggregation of dense concentrations of marine mammals.". Also Westley and Dix showed that these discontinuous icebergs were actually also drifting south and east (i.e. southeast) with the dominant wind and ocean currents of that time which is exactly in the opposite direction of the Americas! So the fact that these were again discontinuous icebergs that were drifting in the complete opposite direction means there is no logical way people could've come from the heart of Europe (i.e. the "Solutrean hypothesis" which has been discredited entirely) to the Americas in this period.

Not to be rude, but you really should bring scholarly sources for your statements rather than just your personal beliefs.

Last edited by jsullivan; 13th September 2010 at 07:21 AM.
jsullivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2010, 07:15 AM   #32
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
Originally Posted by jsullivan View Post
May I also say that this corroborates the history as we find it in the Vedic literature, especially the Rig-veda and the Puranas. It therefore helps prove the authenticity of the Vedic culture and our premise that it was the original ancient civilization, a spiritual society, using the knowledge as had been given by God since the time of creation, and established further by the sages that followed.
If I were you, I would steer clear of anything written by someone with such an obvious bias towards furthering woo, everything else youve posted has been excellent

Quote:
Sumer, Akkadian: Šumeru; possibly Biblical Shinar) was a civilization and historical region in southern Mesopotamia, modern Iraq. It is the earliest known civilization in the world and is known as the Cradle of Civilization. The Sumerian civilization spanned over 3000 years[3] and began with the first settlement of Eridu in the Ubaid period (mid 6th millennium BC) through the Uruk period (4th millennium BC) and the Dynastic periods (3rd millennium BC) until the rise of Babylonia in the early 2nd millennium BC. Sumer was the birthplace of writing, agriculture, the arch and irrigation.
as opposed to
Quote:
The Vedic Period (or Vedic Age) is the period during which the Vedas, the oldest sacred texts of the Indo-Aryans, were being composed. Scholars place the Vedic period in the second and first millennia BCE continuing up to the 6th century BCE based on literary evidence.
The recognised orthodox order of civilisation is
1. Mesopotamia
2. Egypt
3. India
wishful thinking from Stephen Knapp won't change that,

Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Ainue have been found and I read somewhere that an australian aborigini had been discovered somewhere in south america having arrived via raft.
some truth in that, but not the way you are reporting it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuegian...anesian_origin

Last edited by Marduk; 13th September 2010 at 07:23 AM.
Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2010, 07:40 AM   #33
jsullivan
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
If I were you, I would steer clear of anything written by someone with such an obvious bias towards furthering woo, everything else youve posted has been excellent



as opposed to


The recognised orthodox order of civilisation is
1. Mesopotamia
2. Egypt
3. India
wishful thinking from Stephen Knapp won't change that,


some truth in that, but not the way you are reporting it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuegian...anesian_origin
Thanks for your advice and comments I didn't really read over Knapp's article to in depth he seemed somewhat reliable but the quote about oldest civilization does raise questions about him. The main reason I quoted him was because he dealt with who the real "Aryan" people were and how the Nazis and Hitler morphed a fake idea of allegedly being "descendants" of Aryans that were suppose to have invaded India. Knapp is trying to show that this "Aryan invasion" didn't happen and from what I've read Hitler and the Nazis made a big myth out of this. Main point being today's white neo-Nazi fools are not even really "Aryans" like they try to claim as authentic Aryan peoples are in places like Iran, Indian, Punjab, etc. I would like for someone else to post some good articles and info on the Aryans and in-depth refutations of Nazi and neo-Nazi myths and propaganda. On the last issue were the former poster discussed the Ainu and people of South America an interesting video from the good youtube user "Salsassin" came to my mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksKSAIjI84I (Start at 3:55 for info on the Ainu, Jomon, and relation to people in South Americans near the Andes mountains). The Ainu are close to the Andes peoples.
jsullivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2010, 09:12 AM   #34
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
Originally Posted by jsullivan View Post
Thanks for your advice and comments I didn't really read over Knapp's article to in depth he seemed somewhat reliable but the quote about oldest civilization does raise questions about him. .
I'm really glad you said that, for a few seconds there I thought you were going to start talking about Vimanas and horses on vedic cylinder seals. You'd be surprised at how often we get someone in here who really knows their stuff, and then pisses it into the wind trying to prove their religious belief with it (just like Knapp)
Originally Posted by jsullivan View Post
The main reason I quoted him was because he dealt with who the real "Aryan" people were and how the Nazis and Hitler morphed a fake idea of allegedly being "descendants" of Aryans that were suppose to have invaded India. Knapp is trying to show that this "Aryan invasion" didn't happen and from what I've read Hitler and the Nazis made a big myth out of this. Main point being today's white neo-Nazi fools are not even really "Aryans" like they try to claim as authentic Aryan peoples are in places like Iran, Indian, Punjab, etc. I would like for someone else to post some good articles and info on the Aryans and in-depth refutations of Nazi and neo-Nazi myths and propaganda. On the last issue were the former poster discussed the Ainu and people of South America an interesting video from the good youtube user "Salsassin" came to my mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksKSAIjI84I (Start at 3:55 for info on the Ainu, Jomon, and relation to people in South Americans near the Andes mountains). The Ainu are close to the Andes peoples.
Way ahead of you on that, I've been studying that area for about 7 years and know Salsassin from the Hall of Maat. But the recent genetic data disproves all previous speculation nicely, (pseudohistory fail ) however from what I remember off the top of my head the connection between the Ainu/Jomon and a few andean tribes is that they were the same group, which originally travelled through Asia, with one group heading north and crossing the bearing straight and the other heading south and populating the Japans. Salsassins film wasn't very clear there and seemed to be implying that some Ainu had got into a boat and travelled to South America.

Max Mueller later recanted his Aryan invasion theory, iirc he claimed that the invasion was a linguistical one, although this itself seems to me to have been just a face saving exercise as there is no linguistical connection between truly ancinet sanskrit and other civilisations



Also I notice that youre quite passionately vehement against white Neo Nazis, personally I think youre giving them too much of your valuable time, who cares what a bunch of tards think about themselves. We all know that the gene responsible for white skin in Europeans wasn't dominant until 12,000 years ago. Thats been proven. Plato is more responsible for the lies of Mueller and Hitler than anyone else.

also its possible to embed youtube videos here
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

I have embedded salsassins "Native Americans, Dolichocephalism and the Ainu" film, if you click quote on the bottom you should be able to work out how I did that

Last edited by Marduk; 13th September 2010 at 09:20 AM.
Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2010, 04:26 PM   #35
MaGZ
Philosopher
 
MaGZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,914
Originally Posted by jsullivan View Post
The closest match found to the Native American haplogroup X haplotype is one case from Iran: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/
"We surveyed our Old World haplogroup X mtDNAs for the five diagnostic X2a mutations (table 2) and found a match only for the transition at np 12397 in a single X2* sequence from Iran. In a parsimony tree, this Iranian mtDNA would share a common ancestor with the Native American clade (fig. 2)."

This brings to mind the absurdity of how white supremacists like to claim they are alleged "Aryans"! When in reality the only true people that have any claims to being historic Aryan peoples are those in Iran and places like India (especially the Indian region of Punjab). So if you want true "Aryans" you'd have to get people that look like this:

Iranian weightlifter Hossein Rezazadeh (olympic medalist and world's strongest man)
http://www.tehrantimes.com/News/10375/13_13-3.jpg

And some Punjabi Indian people:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...07_140x190.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/100/2...347a505503.jpg

They hardly look "white" like the white supremacists like to claim, with their fake "Aryan" claims:
http://www.gossipnews.it/sport/oscar_2005/images/18.jpg

This above woman is Nordic but not "Aryan" at all, no matter how much the idiot white supremacists (who absurdly use titles like "Aryan nations") fools want to try to claim she (or those like her) somehow allegedly are!

As to further important and relevant issues regarding haplogroup X the best scholarly article discussing this issue is the following: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1226041/

"The network further suggests that the Altaian X haplotypes occupy the intermediate position between European and American Indian haplogroup X mtDNA lineages (fig. 1).
...
The analysis of the tribal structure of Southern Altaians has shown that the present-day Altaians have retained their native language and ethnic identity. They have begun to mix with other ethnic groups (mostly Russians and Kazakhs) only recently, so the interethnic admixture is estimated to be <5% (Luzina 1987; Osipova et al. 1997). The haplogroup X mtDNAs have not been found in populations of central Asia, including Kazakhs, Uighurs, and Kirghizs (Comas et al. 1998). Since the frequency of haplogroup X in Russians is extremely low (3 of 336; Orekhov et al. 1999; Malyarchuk and Derenko 2000; authors’ unpublished data), the recent European (i.e. Russian) admixture cannot explain the presence of haplogroup X in the Altaians. Hence, the results of the present study allow us to suggest that haplogroup X was the part of the ancestral gene pool for Altaian populations, being found both in northern and southern Altaians.

Recently, the mtDNA studies have shown that both northern and southern Altaians exhibit all four Asian and American Indian–specific haplogroups (A–D) with frequencies of 57.2% (Sukernik et al. 1996) and 46.8% (Derenko et al. 2000a), respectively, exceeding those reported previously for Mongolians, Chinese, and Tibetans. Therefore, they may represent the populations which are most closely related to New World indigenous groups. Since the detection of all four haplogroups (A–D) in an Asian population is thought to be a first criterion in the identification of a possible New World founder, the candidate source population for American Indian mtDNA haplotypes therefore may include the populations originating in the regions to the southwest and southeast of Lake Baikal, including the Altai Mountain region (Derenko et al. 2000b). The presence of X mtDNAs in Altaians is generally consonant with the latter conclusion.

Because the location and identification of the population that was the source of the founding lineages for the New World is a question of considerable interest, several studies on Y-chromosomal DNA polymorphism were performed recently to investigate Pleistocene male migrations to the American continent (Underhill et al. 1996; Lell et al. 1997; Karafet et al. 1999; Santos et al. 1999). It has been shown that the major Y haplotype present in most American Indians could be traced back to recent ancestors they have in common with Siberians: namely, the Kets and Altaians, from the Yenisey River Basin and the Altai Mountains, respectively (Santos et al. 1999). Similarly, based on a comprehensive analysis of worldwide Y-chromosome variation, it has been proposed that populations occupying the general area including Lake Baikal (eastward to the Trans-Baikal and southward into Northern Mongolia), the Lena River headwaters, the Angara and Yenisey River basins, the Altai Mountain foothills, and the region south of the Sayan Mountains (including Tuva and western Mongolia) was the source for dispersals of New World Y-chromosome founders (Karafet et al. 1999). It is obvious that we have now the genetic evidence that will allow closer determination of which Siberian population was the source of the population expansion leading to modern American Indians and will allow relation of the studies of migrations from Siberia to the Americas that are based on paternally inherited genetic systems with those based on maternally inherited ones."

So the main points to keep in mind are the following:

1) The Altaian haplogroup X haplotypes occupy the intermediate position between the European and Native American haplogroup X haplotypes. This means that the Native American haplogroup X has to have come from Siberia and the Altaians of Siberia not Europe (because had it come from Europe as people pushing the "Solutrean hypothesis" falsehood contend then the European haplogroup X haplotype would be in between the Altaian Siberian haplogoup X haplotype and the Native American haplogroup X haplotype which it again is not it is the Altaian's haplogroup X haplotype which is between the European and Native American haplogroup X haplotypes).

2) As to the presence of haplogroup X in the Altaians it has been shown conclusively that it is part of the Altaians ancestral (ancient) DNA and is not a recent admixture as some allege. Again the scientific article I quoted showed that the Altaians have retained their Indigenous culture, languages, ways, etc. and they have begun to mix only very recently (with mostly Russians and Kazaks) so the Altaians inter-ethnic admixture is estimated to be less than 5%. The scholarly article I cited than showed clearly that haplogroup X has not been found in Kazak people and that haplogroup X is extremely rare in Russian people with only 3 out of 336 Russian subjects tested possessing haplogroup X: that is significantly less than 1%! On this point an interesting thing to read is the following http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml regarding haplogroup X in the Altaian mongoloid people of Siberia "Its presence cannot be explained by recent admixture with Russians, among whom haplogroup X occurs at very low levels (3 out of 336 subjects tested). (Though unlikely, one could imagine that admixture could have occurred with a group of Russians rich in haplogroup X.)"

This writer tries to leave the door open to the possibility that Russians allegedly "rich" in haplogroup X could be the source of the Altaian haplogroup X; but again even he admits this is unlikely and not the best answer. The best answer is again http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1226041/ "Hence, the results of the present study allow us to suggest that haplogroup X was the part of the ancestral gene pool for Altaian populations, being found both in northern and southern Altaians."

3) The mongoloid Altaian peoples of Siberia not only have haplogroup X (in the correct haplotype that is closest to the Native American haplogroup X haplotype) but they also have all 4 main other Native American haplogroups that is haplogroups A, B, C, and D (i.e. haplogroups A-D). Thus Altaians are certainly part of the ancient Siberian mongoloid peoples that crossed the Bering Strait into North America and became the Indigenous Native Americans first to settle the land.

4) And also again studies on the Y-chromosome DNA of the Native Americans (that is from the male side, i.e. again the Y-chromosome) detail that; "It has been shown that the major Y haplotype present in most American Indians could be traced back to recent ancestors they have in common with Siberians: namely, the Kets and Altaians, from the Yenisey River Basin and the Altai Mountains, respectively (Santos et al. 1999)."
Thus clearly these Altaian men and women crossed over the Bering Strait and again further adds to the proof that the Altaian mongoloid people are the source of the rare haplogroup X in North America and that the nearly entirely discredited and refuted "Solutrean hypothesis" is completely false.

Some good videos refuting all these Eurocentric and white supremacist lies regarding the Indigenous peoples of Mesoamerica are done by the youtube user "Salsassin" in his youtube videos.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Salsassin

Specifically these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqMi9YDRlEI
Parts 1 thru 4

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXGDo-SqFec
Parts 1 thru 5

Also refuting the false "Solutrean hypothesis": http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2008/0...ypothesis.html

and also the great 2008 scholarly paper (already mentioned in this thread) by qualified oceanographers Kieran Westley and Justin Dix called "The Solutrean Atlantic Hypothesis: A View from the Ocean" which shreds apart the "Solutrean hypothesis" and completely debunks it on oceanographic grounds: http://www.scribd.com/doc/19002252/2...From-the-Ocean
Aryans in Iran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0TQ1gj8GQo&NR=1
MaGZ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2010, 04:35 PM   #36
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
How do you know they are all descended from speakers of proto indo european ?
Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2010, 09:43 PM   #37
Salsassin
New Blood
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4
Interesting. Yeah, I debated with John Nugent on this subject a few times.
Salsassin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2010, 09:45 PM   #38
Salsassin
New Blood
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
Way ahead of you on that, I've been studying that area for about 7 years and know Salsassin from the Hall of Maat. But the recent genetic data disproves all previous speculation nicely, (pseudohistory fail ) however from what I remember off the top of my head the connection between the Ainu/Jomon and a few andean tribes is that they were the same group, which originally travelled through Asia, with one group heading north and crossing the bearing straight and the other heading south and populating the Japans. Salsassins film wasn't very clear there and seemed to be implying that some Ainu had got into a boat and travelled to South America.
Hey Marduk. Yeah, no evidence the Ainu migrated to South America. Although boats and coastal hoping along Beringia definitely seems to have been involved.
Salsassin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2010, 02:30 PM   #39
jsullivan
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 24
One last thing to keep in mind about the debate regarding haplogroup X is the strong conclusion of a very recent 2008 scholarly paper by Fagundes & co. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez

The article is entitled: "Mitochondrial Population Genomics Supports a Single Pre-Clovis Origin with a Coastal Route for the Peopling of the Americas"

Quote- Here we show, by using 86 complete mitochondrial genomes, that all Native American haplogroups, including haplogroup X, were part of a single founding population, thereby refuting multiple-migration models.
jsullivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2010, 06:04 PM   #40
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
Originally Posted by jsullivan View Post
Quote- Here we show, by using 86 complete mitochondrial genomes, that all Native American haplogroups, including haplogroup X, were part of a single founding population, thereby refuting multiple-migration models.
Do they explain what they mean by "All" when they didn't include haplogroup Q (YDNA) ?#
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...)#The_Americas
Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:07 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.