Speak up for autism on Nov. 1st

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by CelticRose

What we object to is people trying to find a "cure" for autism. There's a movement out there that portrays autism as this horrible plague that must be eliminated.

Who is this "we" that you speak of? My nephew has severe autism. He's 10 and can't use a fork and you're darn right I want a cure.

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There's even research aimed at finding a genetic marker for autism so that any fetus showing signs of autism can be aborted.

Could you provide more infomation on this, especially the part about the abortions? Thanks.

[jiggeryqua]

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

I would appreciate if you would follow the progression below and respond. The original question was asking what the person wants from society.

Ah, a progression that included a remark from you - as it happens, I only just unignored you to see what you'd said in response to my post, but in the expectation of popping you back on ignore from weary experience of you dragging everything down to some sort of wrestling match.

Just before I do, I'll point out that Tubba was apparantly responding to my post, rather than the 'progression' you mention. I don't know if you'd appreciate him answering any of the questions I raised - I know I would but he hasn't...

[jiggeryqua]

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

The problem is that unless you state clearly what you want, you can just acrobat your way around anything I say and reply with "No, that's not really what I meant!" and make up more irrelevant analogies about black people and wheelchairs.

What I mean is that it shows very clearly that you somehow think that you are far more than reasonably entitled to something from society. I don't know what it is, since you haven't said so yet. Using the term "Aspergians" appears to be a warning flag.

A warning flag of what? I use the term Aspergians because I don't care to say that I 'have' Asperger's, anymore than homosexuals 'have' homosexuality. I certainly don't care to be told I 'suffer' from Aspergers.

Let's try and pick apart the earlier remark:
"What I mean is that it shows very clearly that you somehow think that you are far more than reasonably entitled to something from society."

Is that finally a response to the first of my questions arising from an earlier post? Does 'what I mean' answer 'what do you mean by 'emphasises an excessive entitlement?'? You think that my pointing out that civil rights have grown to encompass citizens that aren't white, male, straight and able-bodied is indicative of (and 'very clearly' indicative of) that I somehow think that I'm far more than reasonably entitled to something from society?

Perhaps you haven't really been reading my posts? It took me a while to grasp that you appeared to think I wanted a law that made people like other people (even though that's a very silly idea). I'd grant that would probably qualify as 'an excessive entitlement'...if anyone was asking for it. It is, however, very clearly indicative of your ignorance of Aspergers that you might believe that it was being called for. (Although I will note that many places now make hate speech illegal and many societies make certain words or attitudes socially unacceptable).

I note also that you asked why I'd assumed you were able-bodied when I referred to 'white, male, straight, able-bodied' people. You really shouldn't take these things so personally, but since you did I see that you didn't argue 'white, male and straight'. Do you understand how much you get from society? Do you really appreciate how much of what you take for granted has been hard-won (or is still to be won) by the rest of society? I'm sorry you feel the analogies were irrelevant. I'm not sure I can help you see what you're missing. There's none so blind...

As it happens, I think you're also making the mistake of imagining Rose & I are the same person. I haven't come here 'wanting' something (and certainly not some excessive entitlement), although I do still want some answers to all those questions you avoided. I'm not holding my breath...

In the meanwhile, since you asked, among the things I'd want would be a solution to my biggest problem: whatever the skills required for a job, what is likely to be tested is the ability to be interviewed (which I'm assured usually means 'demonstrating your similarity to the interviewer', something that Aspergians rarely achieve).

Practical solutions to that problem include the interview structure that was used for a job I excelled at some years back. All interviewees were asked the same questions and, crucially, got 15 mins with the written questions before the interview, so I could compose my answers. I aced the interview. I excelled at the work. I got no 'excessive entitlement' - unless you think I'm entitled to less than proper people, which does appear to be the case.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by Fnord

So, by your reasoning, oppressed peoples everywhere should just do nothing except shut up and get back to work.

Thank you, Mr. Bush. Say 'Hello' to Mr. Cheney for me, willya?

"oppressed peoples"? Aspies?

[Pauliesonne]

I have aspergers but I wouldn't want personally to be cured because I'd worry about experiencing a lot of new feelings and activities.

But, I still would like a cure to be found for those who can be given the cure before they're born.

[CelticRose]

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

In what ways does that not happen now?

Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.

Also, people have a tendency to be patronizing toward people with autism. Personally, I often experience people speaking to me as if I'm an idiot child even though I'm 38 and possess above average intelligence. Since I haven't been diagnosed, I don't go around saying I'm autistic, btw, but people treat me poorly anyway. I've heard from autistic people with diagnoses that they're often treated the same way.

Then there's all the stuff that happens due to misinformation spread by the media. I've heard from autistic people that when they tell someone about their diagnosis, the other person will say something along the lines of "You can't be autistic -- you can talk." People assume that all autistic people are completely nonverbal, are savants, are mentally handicapped, and/or are dangerous.

[CelticRose]

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

And they are not now, in relation to how much help other disabled people get?

Children, yes. Adults, not so much. The main focus in the medical community seems to be on identifying autism in children and providing them with support and accommodations, where necessary, through their school years. However, once they reach adulthood, all that support evaporates. It's like people don't think that autistic adults exist -- that they magically grow out of it somehow. Adults have difficulty getting diagnosed as well since most psychologists who treat autism specialize in treating children. On one autism forum I used to frequent, people would ask for volunteers for studies on autism, but the cutoff age was nearly always 21 -- they didn't want to hear from anyone older than that. When the adults on the forum asked why no one wanted to hear from them, they were not given a response.

[CelticRose]

Originally Posted by Skwinty

I can understand ramps etc for the wheelchair bound.
That is a failing of society to provide access to public places for people in wheel chairs.

As for respect and acceptance, well my parents taught me that those reactions from society, are earned and not just given, regardless of race, creed, belief or condition.

In other words, my level of acceptance into society and the amount of respect society shows me, is directly proportional to my attitude and behaviour.

Now I understand that Aspies, at least those who are affected more severely, have problems with social interaction.
People should, if they are aware of the persons condition, react with compassion and understanding.

However, in many cases, society is not aware of this on first encountering the Aspie. So I think that a little understanding from both sides is in order.

The only way we can garner that understanding is through dialogue and interaction.

QFT. Especially the bit about "from both sides".

Unfortunately, many neurotypicals (i.e. so-called "normal" people) seem to be unwilling to meet autistic people halfway. I can't begin to count the times I've asked people to explain something to me because I was having difficulty understanding it, and not only were they unwilling to explain it to me, but they seemed insulted or annoyed that I had even asked the question.

[CelticRose]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

Who is this "we" that you speak of? My nephew has severe autism. He's 10 and can't use a fork and you're darn right I want a cure.

I'm sorry to hear that your nephew is so severely disabled that he cannot use a fork (that's sincere -- I'm not being sarcastic). However, are sure that's directly related to his autism? It sounds more like a comorbid, but I could be wrong.

You may want a cure, but does he? A question that commonly comes up on autistic forums is "If there were a cure, would you take it?" The majority respond "no", and that includes people who are completely nonverbal irl. There are people that do want a cure, and that's fine. The point is that it should be the autistic person's choice, not anyone else's.

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Could you provide more infomation on this, especially the part about the abortions? Thanks.

Here's a project doing genetic research on autism: http://www.autismgenome.org/index.html.

Now, genetic research is generally a good thing, but there's fear among the autistic community that it might be misused, particularly by parents-to-be who have been misinformed by the media. The following site, albeit biased and overly dramatic, illustrates how many on the spectrum feel about the subject. http://ventura33.com/clock/

[Uncayimmy]

Originally Posted by CelticRose

Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.

Societies use acceptance and rejection to modify behavior. People who are different will be rejected. I'm not sure much can be done beyond tempering it to a degree, which is certainly a laudable goal. But the fact is that if someone for whatever reason (say) has trouble holding a conversation such as not knowing when it's their turn to talk on the phone, people are naturally not going to want to talk on the phone with that person.

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Also, people have a tendency to be patronizing toward people with autism. Personally, I often experience people speaking to me as if I'm an idiot child even though I'm 38 and possess above average intelligence. Since I haven't been diagnosed, I don't go around saying I'm autistic, btw, but people treat me poorly anyway. I've heard from autistic people with diagnoses that they're often treated the same way.

That's not an issue of society but an issue of your personal social circle. What you describe is something many people experience for a variety of reasons. Since you don't go around announcing that you have autism, then you are being treated differently because of your behavior rather than a label. If this is "who you are" then people are treating you according to their perceptions. I have a problem with people treating individuals based on expectations and stereotypes, but when it comes to actual behavior, that's another matter.

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Then there's all the stuff that happens due to misinformation spread by the media. I've heard from autistic people that when they tell someone about their diagnosis, the other person will say something along the lines of "You can't be autistic -- you can talk." People assume that all autistic people are completely nonverbal, are savants, are mentally handicapped, and/or are dangerous.

While there are certainly some "myths" about people with autism, there are "myths" about every group. Stamping out myths is a laudable goal. The "dangerous" myth is a new one on me.

[technoextreme]

Originally Posted by CelticRose

Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.

For someone your age the original diagnosis of autism would be mental retardation.

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That's not an issue of society but an issue of your personal social circle.

Uhhhh... It is an issue of society. A significant proportion of the population refuses to believe that adults can have autism.

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While there are certainly some "myths" about people with autism, there are "myths" about every group. Stamping out myths is a laudable goal. The "dangerous" myth is a new one on me.

Its not a myth. Autism is a spectrum disorder. The ones that are complaining about people finding a cure are the ones who are lucky. They can function in society and managed to get through with a little bit of trouble. The ones that are violent are more towards the unable to function part of the spectrum.

[Uncayimmy]

Originally Posted by technoextreme

Uhhhh... It is an issue of society. A significant proportion of the population refuses to believe that adults can have autism.

In her case there is no label whatsoever. There is only behavior, and by her own description, people seem to treat her according to her behavior. She didn't say anything about society believing or not believing adults can have autism. I've never heard of people not believing adults can have autism. Do they think children outgrow it or die before they reach adulthood?

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Its not a myth. Autism is a spectrum disorder. The ones that are complaining about people finding a cure are the ones who are lucky. They can function in society and managed to get through with a little bit of trouble. The ones that are violent are more towards the unable to function part of the spectrum.

You can take up the myth status with these folks:
http://autism.about.com/od/whatisautism/tp/topmyths.htm

To my knowledge violence is not part of the diagnostic criteria, and the correlations such as they are don't exist outside of other psychological disorders. Do you have evidence to support your statements?

[Damien Evans]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

"oppressed peoples"? Aspies?

I hate that word.

[Damien Evans]

Originally Posted by technoextreme

For someone your age the original diagnosis of autism would be mental retardation.

Uhhhh... It is an issue of society. A significant proportion of the population refuses to believe that adults can have autism.

Its not a myth. Autism is a spectrum disorder. The ones that are complaining about people finding a cure are the ones who are lucky. They can function in society and managed to get through with a little bit of trouble. The ones that are violent are more towards the unable to function part of the spectrum.

I've never heard of violence having anything to do with any ASDs. Tantrums over what would seem to a normal person nothing in some more severely affected people yes, but not proper violence.

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

I've never heard of violence having anything to do with any ASDs. Tantrums over what would seem to a normal person nothing in some more severely affected people yes, but not proper violence.

Tantrums from adults can be dangerous and violent.

But either way, I work directly with several people with autism and one of them gets proper violent pretty easily if you don't know how to work with her. If it's autism specifically that causes that behavior, or contributes to it, is hard to say as most of the people I work with have other disorders as well.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by CelticRose

Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.

If you act in a way that seems rude to neurotypicals and don't let them know that you have ASD, then the reasonable thing for them to assume is that you are rude.

We have a friend whose child has ASD and we always remind our kids of this before they see him. It allows them to reset their gauge of what is rude and to understand why some of his actions would not be acceptable for them to mirror.

How else can we expect them to be patient with him when he does things that we would not allow them to do?

Quote:

Also, people have a tendency to be patronizing toward people with autism. Personally, I often experience people speaking to me as if I'm an idiot child even though I'm 38 and possess above average intelligence. Since I haven't been diagnosed, I don't go around saying I'm autistic, btw, but people treat me poorly anyway. I've heard from autistic people with diagnoses that they're often treated the same way.

Then there's all the stuff that happens due to misinformation spread by the media. I've heard from autistic people that when they tell someone about their diagnosis, the other person will say something along the lines of "You can't be autistic -- you can talk." People assume that all autistic people are completely nonverbal, are savants, are mentally handicapped, and/or are dangerous.

[jiggeryqua]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

If you act in a way that seems rude to neurotypicals and don't let them know that you have ASD, then the reasonable thing for them to assume is that you are rude.

When Ugandan asian immigrants arrived in Britain (fleeing Idi Amin's regime), they were at first considered to be very rude people. Perhaps in some places they still are, but social discourse spread the awareness of conflicting expectations of what is 'polite'.

I'd venture to suggest that the reasonable thing to do when you feel someone is rude is to remind yourself that they are not you, and that they may not even have been exposed to the same forces or pressures that helped form you. Outside of your family, that will be a good few people. Outside of your neighbourhood and social circle that will a good few more. Outside of your country, more again, and outside of your neurotypicality, some more.

[Skwinty]

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua

When Ugandan asian immigrants arrived in Britain (fleeing Idi Amin's regime), they were at first considered to be very rude people. Perhaps in some places they still are, but social discourse spread the awareness of conflicting expectations of what is 'polite'..

True, however your example relies on cultural differences in determing the perception of rudeness. Once you know and understand the cultural difference, then a reasonable person will lose the perception that the Ugandans are rude.

The same applies to when I meet an Aspergian and I am not aware of this fact, sure I will think they are rude.

If however, I was aware of the Aspergian condition, then I would not think they are rude and adjust my perception accordingly.

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua

I'd venture to suggest that the reasonable thing to do when you feel someone is rude is to remind yourself that they are not you, and that they may not even have been exposed to the same forces or pressures that helped form you. Outside of your family, that will be a good few people. Outside of your neighbourhood and social circle that will a good few more. Outside of your country, more again, and outside of your neurotypicality, some more.

True again, the person who I perceive to be rude is not me and does not have the same social forces and pressures that I do, but if I do not know that they are Aspergian, I will think they are rude and avoid them.
I cannot make adjustments to my perception based on something I do not know.

[Pauliesonne]

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

I hate that word.

Why? I've only heard the term a couple of months ago.

I think it's cute.

[CelticRose]

Originally Posted by technoextreme

Originally Posted by CelticRose

Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.

For someone your age the original diagnosis of autism would be would have been mental retardation instead of autism if you had been diagnosed as a child.

Fixed that for you.

Originally Posted by technoextreme

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

While there are certainly some "myths" about people with autism, there are "myths" about every group. Stamping out myths is a laudable goal. The "dangerous" myth is a new one on me.

Its not a myth. Autism is a spectrum disorder. The ones that are complaining about people finding a cure are the ones who are lucky. They can function in society and managed to get through with a little bit of trouble. The ones that are violent are more towards the unable to function part of the spectrum.

Uh, no. There are likely about the same number of violent people among autistics as there are among neurotypicals. The misperception of autistic people as being violent is due to media bias and sensationalism. Whenever a crime is committed by an autistic person, the media make a big deal of it and focus on the criminal's autism as the "cause". Oftentimes, if a neurotypical had committed the same crime, the media wouldn't bother to cover it.

[CelticRose]

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

I've never heard of people not believing adults can have autism. Do they think children outgrow it or die before they reach adulthood?

No, but you'd think so the way the medical community and researchers act sometimes. As I said above:

Originally Posted by CelticRose

The main focus in the medical community seems to be on identifying autism in children and providing them with support and accommodations, where necessary, through their school years. However, once they reach adulthood, all that support evaporates. It's like people don't think that autistic adults exist -- that they magically grow out of it somehow. Adults have difficulty getting diagnosed as well since most psychologists who treat autism specialize in treating children. On one autism forum I used to frequent, people would ask for volunteers for studies on autism, but the cutoff age was nearly always 21 -- they didn't want to hear from anyone older than that. When the adults on the forum asked why no one wanted to hear from them, they were not given a response.

Just to be clear, I don't actually think that people don't believe that adults can have autism. More likely, they tend to forget (accidentally or on purpose) about the adults because they don't have the "cute factor" or parents with money that children do.

[Damien Evans]

Originally Posted by Pauliesonne

Why? I've only heard the term a couple of months ago.

I think it's cute.

Not because of any connotations or anything. I just don't like the way it sounds in my head.

[CelticRose]

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

Not because of any connotations or anything. I just don't like the way it sounds in my head.

Cheer up -- it's going away soon. When the DSM V comes out Asperger's will be lumped in with autism.

[Jr1985]

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

In my opinion, some people are much too obsessed with seeing themselves as “oppressed”, and using that as an excuse to spend their efforts calling attention to themselves, and creating a drag on society as a whole, rather than contributing as they should to society. And even worse, such people are often occupied trying to convince others in similar situations that they are also “oppressed” and should do likewise.

I have no use for such whiny parasites. If you are oppressed, it is only because you choose to be so. Perhaps its way past time you grew up, and acted like an adult instead of a whiny toddler.

Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

King Arthur: Bloody peasant!

Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?

Since you haven't been officially diagnosed, it's safe to assume that if you have AS, it is probably very mild. Not everyone is as lucky as you, a lot of people with autism have trouble getting jobs, so that they can contribute to society. They also experience bullying as a result of being different.

Perhaps if NTs would engage their frontal lobes to override their primitive animal instincts, that seem to activate when they encounter someone "different", autistics wouldn't have anything to whine about.

[jiggeryqua]

Originally Posted by Skwinty

I cannot make adjustments to my perception based on something I do not know.

Well, the point was right there, but you seem to have missed it. You can adjust your expectations...in light of a mature awareness that 'rude' means 'not following the unwritten rules of my family/class/town/country'. You can adjust your responses. Indeed, to some degree you can make adjustments to your perception because you know there's plenty of things you do not know.

But let's get beyond that, for fear of reinforcing the erroneous ideas some posters appear to have - that the only impact of Asperger's is to make some folk unlikeable, and that we seek legislation to make people put up with that.

[Jr1985]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

Who is this "we" that you speak of? My nephew has severe autism. He's 10 and can't use a fork and you're darn right I want a cure.

Does he? If you search for "in my language" on youtube you will see a girl with autism, who cant even speak, and she doesn't want a cure.

If we cured autism I wonder if that would eliminate even the positive traits. Like honestly, loyalty, attention to detail, etc. People like Einstein and Alan Turing, who invented one of the first computers and helped break the enigma code, had autistic traits. Clusters of autism are found in areas like Silicon Valley, where technical ability is advantageous. So without autism genes we may not have the technology we have today. Perhaps we'd still be sitting around a fire in a cave, chatting about the weather...

Of course, I would fully support anyones decision to be cured of autism if they felt they really wanted it, if/when it's discovered.

[Uncayimmy]

Originally Posted by Jr1985

Does he? If you search for "in my language" on youtube you will see a girl with autism, who cant even speak, and she doesn't want a cure.

If we cured autism I wonder if that would eliminate even the positive traits. Like honestly, loyalty, attention to detail, etc. People like Einstein and Alan Turing, who invented one of the first computers and helped break the enigma code, had autistic traits. Clusters of autism are found in areas like Silicon Valley, where technical ability is advantageous. So without autism genes we may not have the technology we have today. Perhaps we'd still be sitting around a fire in a cave, chatting about the weather...

Of course, I would fully support anyones decision to be cured of autism if they felt they really wanted it, if/when it's discovered.

I wasn't aware that honesty and loyalty were traits of autism. Do you have a citation for that?

The person to whom you are referring is, I believe, Amanda Baggs. There's quite a bit of controversy surrounding her claims. This site offers some details noting that she was high functioning well into her teens, abused hallucinogens, and proclaimed to have other mental disorders.

That controversy aside, there's an an elephant in the room. I'll probably catch a raft of **** for saying this, but if someone who is unable to care for herself and requires society to essentially keep her alive, then if there's a "cure" available, society faces an ethical dilemma. Does society have an obligation provide care for someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?

[Damien Evans]

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

I wasn't aware that honesty and loyalty were traits of autism. Do you have a citation for that?

The person to whom you are referring is, I believe, Amanda Baggs. There's quite a bit of controversy surrounding her claims. This site offers some details noting that she was high functioning well into her teens, abused hallucinogens, and proclaimed to have other mental disorders.

That controversy aside, there's an an elephant in the room. I'll probably catch a raft of **** for saying this, but if someone who is unable to care for herself and requires society to essentially keep her alive, then if there's a "cure" available, society faces an ethical dilemma. Does society have an obligation provide care for someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?

How does "unable to care for herself" = "someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?"

[Skwinty]

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua

... that the only impact of Asperger's is to make some folk unlikeable, and that we seek legislation to make people put up with that.

That is certainly not the way I think about it.

My point is:

Were I to be in a public place and someone was rude to me specifically,and by rude I mean,

Rudeness "constituted by deviation from whatever counts as politic in a given social context, is inherently confrontational and disruptive to social equilibrium" (Kasper, 1990, p. 208). Rudeness, particularly with respect to speech, is necessarily confrontational at its core."

my initial reaction is to walk away as I don't actively seek confrontation.
That of course means I do not try to find a reason why the person is the way they are.

My point is: Why should I make the effort if I do not know the person, I will probably never see them again .

On the other hand, if I knew the person and I knew of their condition then I will certainly adjust my perception.

[Uncayimmy]

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

How does "unable to care for herself" = "someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?"

Why are you asking that question?

I wrote my statement very carefully. The requirement was "if there's a 'cure' available." JR1985 referred to someone who is not self-sufficient saying that she didn't want a "cure." If such a cure becomes available and she chooses not to partake, I'm saying that creates an ethical dilemma because in effect the person will be choosing to continue not to be self-sufficient.

[Jr1985]

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

I wasn't aware that honesty and loyalty were traits of autism. Do you have a citation for that?

Well unfortunately I'm bit aware of any scientific study, but I can provide a quote from Tony Attwood, who is a psychologist specializing in AS.

Quote:

"Tony's Perspective

From my clinical experience I consider that children and adults with Aspergers Syndrome have a different, not defective, way of thinking.

The person usually has a strong desire to seek knowledge, truth and perfection with a different set of priorities than would be expected with other people. There is also a different perception of situations and sensory experiences. The overriding priority may be to solve a problem rather than satisfy the social or emotional needs of others.

The person values being creative rather than co-operative.

The person with Aspergers syndrome may perceive errors that are not apparent to others, giving considerable attention to detail, rather than noticing the “big picture”.

The person is usually renowned for being direct, speaking their mind and being honest and determined and having a strong sense of social justice.

The person may actively seek and enjoy solitude, be a loyal friend and have a distinct sense of humour.

However, the person with Aspergers Syndrome can have difficulty with the management and expression of emotions.

Children and adults with Aspergers syndrome may have levels of anxiety, sadness or anger that indicate a secondary mood disorder. There may also be problems expressing the degree of love and affection expected by others. Fortunately, we now have successful psychological treatment programs to help manage and express emotions."

From Tony Attwood's website.

I can say from personal experience that I, and other people with AS have difficulty lying. Some people can be brutally honest, e.g. Answering "yes" when asked "does this dress make me look fat?". I think it partially comes from not understanding social "rules".

Also, I don't like to say one thing, and mean another, or pretend to be nice to someone while back stabbing them.

I realise of course that this is just anecdotal, and therefore unreliable. But another positive trait that I do have evidence for is that we are less likely to see the purpose behind events in our lives. In other words, we are less likely to make up fairytales, such as "God did it" or "it was meant to be", to explain things.

www(dot)scientificamerican(dot)com/blog/post.cfm?id=people-with-aspergers-less-likely-t-2010-05-29

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The person to whom you are referring is, I believe, Amanda Baggs. There's quite a bit of controversy surrounding her claims offers some details noting that she was high functioning well into her teens, abused hallucinogens, and proclaimed to have other mental disorders.

I wasn't aware of this, interesting...

Quote:

That controversy aside, there's an an elephant in the room. I'll probably catch a raft of **** for saying this, but if someone who is unable to care for herself and requires society to essentially keep her alive, then if there's a "cure" available, society faces an ethical dilemma. Does society have an obligation provide care for someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?

That thought had occurred to me after I made my post... and I would have to agree with you there. I'm not sure that it's fair for someone, who needs constant care from family, etc, to stay that way if there is an alternative. I imagine it puts immense pressure on her family, or whoever cares for her.

[jiggeryqua]

Originally Posted by Skwinty

That is certainly not the way I think about it.

My point is: Why should I make the effort if I do not know the person, I will probably never see them again .

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua
... that the only impact of Asperger's is to make some folk unlikeable, and that we seek legislation to make people put up with that.

(my added emphasis)

Apparantly you do think about it that way, or why else use that example? I do not believe any autist is seeking legislation that would oblige you to socialise with anyone at all. Remarkably, we're rather more concerned with employment opportunities, workplace harassment, access to services etc. Would you care to address those issues at all?

[jiggeryqua]

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

I wasn't aware that honesty and loyalty were traits of autism. Do you have a citation for that?

let me google that for you

There's a little more to skepticism than a knee-jerk rejection of ideas you don't like or the refusal to do research of your own when you'd rather hang on to treasured, but ignorant, opinions.

[Uncayimmy]

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua

let me google that for you

There's a little more to skepticism than a knee-jerk rejection of ideas you don't like or the refusal to do research of your own when you'd rather hang on to treasured, but ignorant, opinions.

Can you show me where I rejected any ideas? I asked the person making an assertion to provide evidence, which is standard practice. Why should I be obligated to do the research for someone else? At least that person provided an expert opinion. You, by contrast, simply told me to Google it. All I see on the first page are a bunch of anecdotes.

Not to be pedantic, but I believe there is a difference between having difficulty lying and being honest. A cursory glance at some of these non-scholarly links did not address lies of omission, which is allowing someone to believe something that is not true. They mostly centered around apparent difficulty lying and what some term inappropriate honesty. I didn't see where other aspects of honesty were discussed such as infidelity and theft.

I'm not forming a conclusion either way. I'm simply asking for evidence. So far I haven't seen any scholarly works regarding honesty or a clear definition of what it entails.

I will also note that you did not address loyalty. I suppose I'm supposed to Google that as well. I tried. No scholarly articles. I suppose it's plausible since those with Asperger's find difficulty dealing with change. Is that really loyalty? For example, if someone stays a job they hate because they are scared of going on job interviews, are they loyal? It's an interesting philosophical debate.

Thing is, I really don't want to make generalizations about anyone without a reasonable statistical basis. I really don't care if the characteristic is good or bad. I also don't like seeing attributes receiving a "positive spin" just to make a group look good. Therefore, I inquired. It is up to those making claims to justify their positions. Right now, I have no opinion either way.

[Skwinty]

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua

(my added emphasis)

Apparantly you do think about it that way, or why else use that example? I do not believe any autist is seeking legislation that would oblige you to socialise with anyone at all. Remarkably, we're rather more concerned with employment opportunities, workplace harassment, access to services etc. Would you care to address those issues at all?

I don't think that Aspergian or autistics are trying to get legislation in place to force people to like them.

I agree and empathise with the issues sufferers face wrt employment opportunities, workplace harassment, access to services etc.

I do not have any personal experience with the condition, so I am ignorant of the symptons across the spectrum.

I would be hacked off if I suffered from the condition and couldn't get a job or access to public services because of it.

What would you suggest is the best way for neurotypicals to assist in the quest for better opportunities in life?

[Jr1985]

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

Can you show me where I rejected any ideas? I asked the person making an assertion to provide evidence, which is standard practice. Why should I be obligated to do the research for someone else? At least that person provided an expert opinion. You, by contrast, simply told me to Google it. All I see on the first page are a bunch of anecdotes.

Not to be pedantic, but I believe there is a difference between having difficulty lying and being honest. A cursory glance at some of these non-scholarly links did not address lies of omission, which is allowing someone to believe something that is not true. They mostly centered around apparent difficulty lying and what some term inappropriate honesty. I didn't see where other aspects of honesty were discussed such as infidelity and theft.

I'm not forming a conclusion either way. I'm simply asking for evidence. So far I haven't seen any scholarly works regarding honesty or a clear definition of what it entails.

I will also note that you did not address loyalty. I suppose I'm supposed to Google that as well. I tried. No scholarly articles. I suppose it's plausible since those with Asperger's find difficulty dealing with change. Is that really loyalty? For example, if someone stays a job they hate because they are scared of going on job interviews, are they loyal? It's an interesting philosophical debate.

Thing is, I really don't want to make generalizations about anyone without a reasonable statistical basis. I really don't care if the characteristic is good or bad. I also don't like seeing attributes receiving a "positive spin" just to make a group look good. Therefore, I inquired. It is up to those making claims to justify their positions. Right now, I have no opinion either way.

Well I found this -

Quote:

Abstract
The present study explored the relations among lie-telling ability, false belief understanding, and verbal mental age. We found that children with autism spectrum disorder (ASD), like typically developing children, can and do tell antisocial lies (to conceal a transgression) and white lies (in politeness settings). However, children with ASD were less able than typically developing children to cover up their initial lie; that is, children with ASD had difficulty exercising semantic leakage control—the ability to maintain consistency between their initial lie and subsequent statements. Furthermore, unlike in typically developing children, lie-telling ability in children with ASD was not found to be related to their false belief understanding. Future research should examine the underlying processes by which children with ASD tell lies.

Exploring the Ability to Deceive in Children with Autism Spectrum Disorders

Annie S. Li, Elizabeth A. Kelley, Angela D. Evans and Kang Lee


So people with AS can lie, they're just bad at it. I suppose some of us realise that it's easier to be honest, since we are so bad at telling lies? I know from my experience I can tell lies, but I really don't like it, and prefer to be honest.

As for loyalty, nothing came up on pubmed, but it's possible it's related to our difficulty with lying? If you don't like lying, then it's probably difficult for you to be really friendly to someone's face, and then backstab them?

Having read Tony Attwood's books, etc, I suppose I just attributed these characteristics in myself to AS. Maybe I'm just a nice person Then again, having read about other people's experiences, I'd be inclinded to believe it's true.

AS for trying to put a "positive spin" to try and make us look "good", when you live with something like AS it's very easy to get depressed about all of the negatives that come with it, such as loneliness and isolation. Especially when some people view autism as a terrible tragedy (maybe it is for the extreme end of the spectrum?). However, since it's something I'm stuck with I try to focus on the positives, to make life a bit easier. I don't want to see myself as a tragedy, and I do believe there are positives to having AS. Although, I am well aware that it isn't all "good" and if some autistic people want cured then so be it. If they ever invented a cure for autism I would really have to think about whether I wanted to take it or not. It wouldn't be as easy a decision as say taking a cure for cancer, because I feel AS is a fundemental part of who I am, and I'm not sure I'd want to change that.

[jiggeryqua]

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

Therefore, I inquired.

Honest enquiry, from someone who wanted to know? Wouldn't that have involved some simple searching of your own? As opposed to 'Pfft, prove it' on an internet forum? I mean, if I really wanted to know something, I'd put some effort into finding out - and if I just wanted to hang on to my position in an argument, I'd insist that someone else did the work, with no certain knowledge that they would have received the communicated request and no earthly idea when they might respond. Maybe that's just me...

My apologies, by the way, it's really quite discourteous of me to respond to those parts of your posts quoted by others while keeping you on ignore.

[jiggeryqua]

Originally Posted by Skwinty

What would you suggest is the best way for neurotypicals to assist in the quest for better opportunities in life?

In addition to my earlier post regarding the assessment of applicants for job vacancies, with particular reference to interview processes, might I respectfully suggest 'education'? I'm not proposing that 'Autism Studies' squeeze the Literacy Hour out of the primary curriculum, it's hardly a priority, but those neurotypicals in this thread whose enquiries are honest might easily spare sufficient time to find all the information they require online.

I repeat that I didn't come here with a crusading purpose, a manifesto or an 'emphasis on excessive entitlement'. (What ever happened to TubbaBubba, by the way? It surely can't have taken this long to come up with answers to all the questions he prompted. I do hope he's alright.) I don't consider myself an expert on autism of any degree, I merely experience it. I certainly don't set myself up as any kind of spokesperson for anyone other than myself. Again, there are plenty of experts, and self-appointed autism spokespeople, online if you care to seek them out.

[Aitch]

Originally Posted by Skwinty

In other words, my level of acceptance into society and the amount of respect society shows me, is directly proportional to my attitude and behaviour.

So, not in favour of a ******* Speak up for ******* Tourettes, you ******* *******! then?

[Uncayimmy]

Originally Posted by Jr1985

Well I found this -


Exploring the Ability to Deceive in Children with Autism Spectrum Disorders

Annie S. Li, Elizabeth A. Kelley, Angela D. Evans and Kang Lee

Thanks again.

Quote:

So people with AS can lie, they're just bad at it. I suppose some of us realise that it's easier to be honest, since we are so bad at telling lies? I know from my experience I can tell lies, but I really don't like it, and prefer to be honest.

I've had some personal experience with those with Asperger's, and I find your experience consistent. It does pose a few interesting questions. I'm sure there's a spectrum for how comfortable people feel about lying. Since to my knowledge no one has ever been "cured" of autism, we really can't say that it's harder morally for them to lie since that's such a personal issue. For example, how can you and I compare our moral resistance?

From what I've read those with autism have difficulty lying and seem to recognize it. Therefore, it seems they are less likely to lie. Does that make them more honest? In one sense, yes. But in the sense of being honest in moral character, I don't think it does. There's a saying that goes, “The trite saying that honesty is the best policy has met with the just criticism that honesty is not policy. The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.” I think of an honest man as doing the right thing even when he knows he won't be caught.

Quote:

As for loyalty, nothing came up on pubmed, but it's possible it's related to our difficulty with lying? If you don't like lying, then it's probably difficult for you to be really friendly to someone's face, and then backstab them?

That very well could be. There's also the resistance to change, right?

Quote:

Having read Tony Attwood's books, etc, I suppose I just attributed these characteristics in myself to AS. Maybe I'm just a nice person Then again, having read about other people's experiences, I'd be inclinded to believe it's true.

To be fair, who's going to write articles and books portraying those with AS in a negative light? There's a natural tendency to look for the good, so we see articles telling us that without people with AS, we'd have missed out on technological advances (one article I read said we'd still be reading by candlelight). In principle I don't disagree with the larger premise. It's rare to find people highly successful in one area who are also well-balanced. An obsession about toasters is not all that productive. Obsession about music gives us Mozart.

Quote:

AS for trying to put a "positive spin" to try and make us look "good", when you live with something like AS it's very easy to get depressed about all of the negatives that come with it, such as loneliness and isolation. Especially when some people view autism as a terrible tragedy (maybe it is for the extreme end of the spectrum?). However, since it's something I'm stuck with I try to focus on the positives, to make life a bit easier. I don't want to see myself as a tragedy, and I do believe there are positives to having AS. Although, I am well aware that it isn't all "good" and if some autistic people want cured then so be it. If they ever invented a cure for autism I would really have to think about whether I wanted to take it or not. It wouldn't be as easy a decision as say taking a cure for cancer, because I feel AS is a fundemental part of who I am, and I'm not sure I'd want to change that.

I certainly respect what you're saying. Loneliness and isolation can be very painful. Whatever hand you're dealt is the hand you have to play, so look for the best ways to play that hand. I could certainly see why someone would resist a change that would drastically change who they are and how they perceive the world.

This discussion (at least in my mind) touches on a broader subject we've seen bandied about over the years. As new "disorders" are recognized, there's the reaction of, "Well, back when I was coming up those people were just <whatever>. They didn't have a disorder." ADHD comes to mind as a good example.

I think time and technology, especially the Internet, will reveal more and more groups like that. In my own experience I have Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome. I've discussed it here and with people I know. Several have commented that they themselves or others they know seem to have the same thing. They didn't know such a label existed (if they seek treatment, it's often misdiagnosed as insomnia by general practitioners). Most of society considers us night owls who just prefer to go to bed late and don't like getting up in the morning, even though for many of us it can cause practical problems in life. In a way I am faced with changing a fundamental part of who I have been for the last 44 years. The prospect is daunting, and it's going to require a lot of effort to make the change and keep it going.

I can only imagine the backlash if somebody starts as DSPS foundation to advocate reasonable accommodations for us. Obviously, if a business has to serve customers at a certain time in the morning, it may be unreasonable to require them to allow somebody to come in later. However, if the job could be done just as well from 10-7 as it can from 8-5, why not let us keep those hours?

The natural reaction will be, "Just set a bunch of alarms and get your ass out of bed!" The reality is that it can be extremely difficult to wake up. More importantly, we end up running a sleep deficit during the week, which is bad for health (heart disease, diabetes, obesity, depression). Those who are "sleep typical" cannot grasp what we go through. It's not a choice.

I'm sure there are lots of other "disorders" out there. There are probably lots of clusters of similar characteristics people have that we simply haven't recognized yet. It's all very fascinating.