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#41 |
diabolical globalist
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,997
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"My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky |
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#42 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,107
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Ah, a progression that included a remark from you - as it happens, I only just unignored you to see what you'd said in response to my post, but in the expectation of popping you back on ignore from weary experience of you dragging everything down to some sort of wrestling match.
Just before I do, I'll point out that Tubba was apparantly responding to my post, rather than the 'progression' you mention. I don't know if you'd appreciate him answering any of the questions I raised - I know I would but he hasn't... |
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#43 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,107
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A warning flag of what? I use the term Aspergians because I don't care to say that I 'have' Asperger's, anymore than homosexuals 'have' homosexuality. I certainly don't care to be told I 'suffer' from Aspergers.
Let's try and pick apart the earlier remark: "What I mean is that it shows very clearly that you somehow think that you are far more than reasonably entitled to something from society." Is that finally a response to the first of my questions arising from an earlier post? Does 'what I mean' answer 'what do you mean by 'emphasises an excessive entitlement?'? You think that my pointing out that civil rights have grown to encompass citizens that aren't white, male, straight and able-bodied is indicative of (and 'very clearly' indicative of) that I somehow think that I'm far more than reasonably entitled to something from society? Perhaps you haven't really been reading my posts? It took me a while to grasp that you appeared to think I wanted a law that made people like other people (even though that's a very silly idea). I'd grant that would probably qualify as 'an excessive entitlement'...if anyone was asking for it. It is, however, very clearly indicative of your ignorance of Aspergers that you might believe that it was being called for. (Although I will note that many places now make hate speech illegal and many societies make certain words or attitudes socially unacceptable). I note also that you asked why I'd assumed you were able-bodied when I referred to 'white, male, straight, able-bodied' people. You really shouldn't take these things so personally, but since you did I see that you didn't argue 'white, male and straight'. Do you understand how much you get from society? Do you really appreciate how much of what you take for granted has been hard-won (or is still to be won) by the rest of society? I'm sorry you feel the analogies were irrelevant. I'm not sure I can help you see what you're missing. There's none so blind... As it happens, I think you're also making the mistake of imagining Rose & I are the same person. I haven't come here 'wanting' something (and certainly not some excessive entitlement), although I do still want some answers to all those questions you avoided. I'm not holding my breath... In the meanwhile, since you asked, among the things I'd want would be a solution to my biggest problem: whatever the skills required for a job, what is likely to be tested is the ability to be interviewed (which I'm assured usually means 'demonstrating your similarity to the interviewer', something that Aspergians rarely achieve). Practical solutions to that problem include the interview structure that was used for a job I excelled at some years back. All interviewees were asked the same questions and, crucially, got 15 mins with the written questions before the interview, so I could compose my answers. I aced the interview. I excelled at the work. I got no 'excessive entitlement' - unless you think I'm entitled to less than proper people, which does appear to be the case. |
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#44 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,755
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A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare |
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#45 |
Bi Gi
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,687
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I have aspergers but I wouldn't want personally to be cured because I'd worry about experiencing a lot of new feelings and activities.
But, I still would like a cure to be found for those who can be given the cure before they're born. |
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#46 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 1,524
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Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.
Also, people have a tendency to be patronizing toward people with autism. Personally, I often experience people speaking to me as if I'm an idiot child even though I'm 38 and possess above average intelligence. Since I haven't been diagnosed, I don't go around saying I'm autistic, btw, but people treat me poorly anyway. I've heard from autistic people with diagnoses that they're often treated the same way. Then there's all the stuff that happens due to misinformation spread by the media. I've heard from autistic people that when they tell someone about their diagnosis, the other person will say something along the lines of "You can't be autistic -- you can talk." People assume that all autistic people are completely nonverbal, are savants, are mentally handicapped, and/or are dangerous. |
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Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/ |
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#47 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 1,524
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Children, yes. Adults, not so much. The main focus in the medical community seems to be on identifying autism in children and providing them with support and accommodations, where necessary, through their school years. However, once they reach adulthood, all that support evaporates. It's like people don't think that autistic adults exist -- that they magically grow out of it somehow. Adults have difficulty getting diagnosed as well since most psychologists who treat autism specialize in treating children. On one autism forum I used to frequent, people would ask for volunteers for studies on autism, but the cutoff age was nearly always 21 -- they didn't want to hear from anyone older than that. When the adults on the forum asked why no one wanted to hear from them, they were not given a response.
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Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/ |
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#48 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 1,524
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QFT. Especially the bit about "from both sides".
Unfortunately, many neurotypicals (i.e. so-called "normal" people) seem to be unwilling to meet autistic people halfway. I can't begin to count the times I've asked people to explain something to me because I was having difficulty understanding it, and not only were they unwilling to explain it to me, but they seemed insulted or annoyed that I had even asked the question. |
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Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/ |
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#49 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 1,524
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I'm sorry to hear that your nephew is so severely disabled that he cannot use a fork (that's sincere -- I'm not being sarcastic). However, are sure that's directly related to his autism? It sounds more like a comorbid, but I could be wrong.
You may want a cure, but does he? A question that commonly comes up on autistic forums is "If there were a cure, would you take it?" The majority respond "no", and that includes people who are completely nonverbal irl. There are people that do want a cure, and that's fine. The point is that it should be the autistic person's choice, not anyone else's.
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Now, genetic research is generally a good thing, but there's fear among the autistic community that it might be misused, particularly by parents-to-be who have been misinformed by the media. The following site, albeit biased and overly dramatic, illustrates how many on the spectrum feel about the subject. http://ventura33.com/clock/ |
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Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/ |
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#50 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,345
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Societies use acceptance and rejection to modify behavior. People who are different will be rejected. I'm not sure much can be done beyond tempering it to a degree, which is certainly a laudable goal. But the fact is that if someone for whatever reason (say) has trouble holding a conversation such as not knowing when it's their turn to talk on the phone, people are naturally not going to want to talk on the phone with that person.
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#51 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,785
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For someone your age the original diagnosis of autism would be mental retardation.
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It's amazing how many of these "paranormal" icons seem to merge together. There always seem to be theories about how they link together in some way. I'm sure someone has a very good explanation as to how Bigfoot killed JFK to help cover Roswell.-Mark Mekes This isn't rocket surgery.-Bill Nye |
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#52 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,345
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In her case there is no label whatsoever. There is only behavior, and by her own description, people seem to treat her according to her behavior. She didn't say anything about society believing or not believing adults can have autism. I've never heard of people not believing adults can have autism. Do they think children outgrow it or die before they reach adulthood?
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http://autism.about.com/od/whatisautism/tp/topmyths.htm To my knowledge violence is not part of the diagnostic criteria, and the correlations such as they are don't exist outside of other psychological disorders. Do you have evidence to support your statements? |
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#53 |
Up The Irons
Tagger
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,934
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i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp. |
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#54 |
Up The Irons
Tagger
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,934
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i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp. |
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#55 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,974
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Tantrums from adults can be dangerous and violent.
But either way, I work directly with several people with autism and one of them gets proper violent pretty easily if you don't know how to work with her. If it's autism specifically that causes that behavior, or contributes to it, is hard to say as most of the people I work with have other disorders as well. |
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#56 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,263
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If you act in a way that seems rude to neurotypicals and don't let them know that you have ASD, then the reasonable thing for them to assume is that you are rude.
We have a friend whose child has ASD and we always remind our kids of this before they see him. It allows them to reset their gauge of what is rude and to understand why some of his actions would not be acceptable for them to mirror. How else can we expect them to be patient with him when he does things that we would not allow them to do?
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#57 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,107
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When Ugandan asian immigrants arrived in Britain (fleeing Idi Amin's regime), they were at first considered to be very rude people. Perhaps in some places they still are, but social discourse spread the awareness of conflicting expectations of what is 'polite'.
I'd venture to suggest that the reasonable thing to do when you feel someone is rude is to remind yourself that they are not you, and that they may not even have been exposed to the same forces or pressures that helped form you. Outside of your family, that will be a good few people. Outside of your neighbourhood and social circle that will a good few more. Outside of your country, more again, and outside of your neurotypicality, some more. |
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#58 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,593
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True, however your example relies on cultural differences in determing the perception of rudeness. Once you know and understand the cultural difference, then a reasonable person will lose the perception that the Ugandans are rude.
The same applies to when I meet an Aspergian and I am not aware of this fact, sure I will think they are rude. If however, I was aware of the Aspergian condition, then I would not think they are rude and adjust my perception accordingly. True again, the person who I perceive to be rude is not me and does not have the same social forces and pressures that I do, but if I do not know that they are Aspergian, I will think they are rude and avoid them. I cannot make adjustments to my perception based on something I do not know. |
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#59 |
Bi Gi
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,687
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#60 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 1,524
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Originally Posted by technoextreme
Originally Posted by technoextreme
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Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/ |
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#61 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 1,524
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No, but you'd think so the way the medical community and researchers act sometimes.
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Originally Posted by CelticRose
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Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/ |
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#62 |
Up The Irons
Tagger
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,934
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i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp. |
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#63 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 1,524
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Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/ |
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#64 |
Student
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 28
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Since you haven't been officially diagnosed, it's safe to assume that if you have AS, it is probably very mild. Not everyone is as lucky as you, a lot of people with autism have trouble getting jobs, so that they can contribute to society. They also experience bullying as a result of being different.
Perhaps if NTs would engage their frontal lobes to override their primitive animal instincts, that seem to activate when they encounter someone "different", autistics wouldn't have anything to whine about. |
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#65 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,107
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Well, the point was right there, but you seem to have missed it. You can adjust your expectations...in light of a mature awareness that 'rude' means 'not following the unwritten rules of my family/class/town/country'. You can adjust your responses. Indeed, to some degree you can make adjustments to your perception because you know there's plenty of things you do not know.
But let's get beyond that, for fear of reinforcing the erroneous ideas some posters appear to have - that the only impact of Asperger's is to make some folk unlikeable, and that we seek legislation to make people put up with that. |
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#66 |
Student
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 28
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Does he? If you search for "in my language" on youtube you will see a girl with autism, who cant even speak, and she doesn't want a cure.
If we cured autism I wonder if that would eliminate even the positive traits. Like honestly, loyalty, attention to detail, etc. People like Einstein and Alan Turing, who invented one of the first computers and helped break the enigma code, had autistic traits. Clusters of autism are found in areas like Silicon Valley, where technical ability is advantageous. So without autism genes we may not have the technology we have today. Perhaps we'd still be sitting around a fire in a cave, chatting about the weather... Of course, I would fully support anyones decision to be cured of autism if they felt they really wanted it, if/when it's discovered. |
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#67 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,345
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I wasn't aware that honesty and loyalty were traits of autism. Do you have a citation for that?
The person to whom you are referring is, I believe, Amanda Baggs. There's quite a bit of controversy surrounding her claims. This site offers some details noting that she was high functioning well into her teens, abused hallucinogens, and proclaimed to have other mental disorders. That controversy aside, there's an an elephant in the room. I'll probably catch a raft of **** for saying this, but if someone who is unable to care for herself and requires society to essentially keep her alive, then if there's a "cure" available, society faces an ethical dilemma. Does society have an obligation provide care for someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient? |
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#68 |
Up The Irons
Tagger
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
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i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp. |
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#69 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,593
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That is certainly not the way I think about it.
My point is: Were I to be in a public place and someone was rude to me specifically,and by rude I mean, Rudeness "constituted by deviation from whatever counts as politic in a given social context, is inherently confrontational and disruptive to social equilibrium" (Kasper, 1990, p. 208). Rudeness, particularly with respect to speech, is necessarily confrontational at its core." my initial reaction is to walk away as I don't actively seek confrontation. That of course means I do not try to find a reason why the person is the way they are. My point is: Why should I make the effort if I do not know the person, I will probably never see them again . On the other hand, if I knew the person and I knew of their condition then I will certainly adjust my perception. ![]() |
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#70 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,345
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Why are you asking that question?
I wrote my statement very carefully. The requirement was "if there's a 'cure' available." JR1985 referred to someone who is not self-sufficient saying that she didn't want a "cure." If such a cure becomes available and she chooses not to partake, I'm saying that creates an ethical dilemma because in effect the person will be choosing to continue not to be self-sufficient. |
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#71 |
Student
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 28
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Well unfortunately I'm bit aware of any scientific study, but I can provide a quote from Tony Attwood, who is a psychologist specializing in AS.
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I can say from personal experience that I, and other people with AS have difficulty lying. Some people can be brutally honest, e.g. Answering "yes" when asked "does this dress make me look fat?". I think it partially comes from not understanding social "rules". Also, I don't like to say one thing, and mean another, or pretend to be nice to someone while back stabbing them. I realise of course that this is just anecdotal, and therefore unreliable. But another positive trait that I do have evidence for is that we are less likely to see the purpose behind events in our lives. In other words, we are less likely to make up fairytales, such as "God did it" or "it was meant to be", to explain things. www(dot)scientificamerican(dot)com/blog/post.cfm?id=people-with-aspergers-less-likely-t-2010-05-29
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#72 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,107
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Apparantly you do think about it that way, or why else use that example? I do not believe any autist is seeking legislation that would oblige you to socialise with anyone at all. Remarkably, we're rather more concerned with employment opportunities, workplace harassment, access to services etc. Would you care to address those issues at all? |
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#73 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,107
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Originally Posted by UncaYimmy
There's a little more to skepticism than a knee-jerk rejection of ideas you don't like or the refusal to do research of your own when you'd rather hang on to treasured, but ignorant, opinions. |
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#74 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,345
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Can you show me where I rejected any ideas? I asked the person making an assertion to provide evidence, which is standard practice. Why should I be obligated to do the research for someone else? At least that person provided an expert opinion. You, by contrast, simply told me to Google it. All I see on the first page are a bunch of anecdotes.
Not to be pedantic, but I believe there is a difference between having difficulty lying and being honest. A cursory glance at some of these non-scholarly links did not address lies of omission, which is allowing someone to believe something that is not true. They mostly centered around apparent difficulty lying and what some term inappropriate honesty. I didn't see where other aspects of honesty were discussed such as infidelity and theft. I'm not forming a conclusion either way. I'm simply asking for evidence. So far I haven't seen any scholarly works regarding honesty or a clear definition of what it entails. I will also note that you did not address loyalty. I suppose I'm supposed to Google that as well. I tried. No scholarly articles. I suppose it's plausible since those with Asperger's find difficulty dealing with change. Is that really loyalty? For example, if someone stays a job they hate because they are scared of going on job interviews, are they loyal? It's an interesting philosophical debate. Thing is, I really don't want to make generalizations about anyone without a reasonable statistical basis. I really don't care if the characteristic is good or bad. I also don't like seeing attributes receiving a "positive spin" just to make a group look good. Therefore, I inquired. It is up to those making claims to justify their positions. Right now, I have no opinion either way. |
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#75 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,593
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I don't think that Aspergian or autistics are trying to get legislation in place to force people to like them.
I agree and empathise with the issues sufferers face wrt employment opportunities, workplace harassment, access to services etc. I do not have any personal experience with the condition, so I am ignorant of the symptons across the spectrum. I would be hacked off if I suffered from the condition and couldn't get a job or access to public services because of it. What would you suggest is the best way for neurotypicals to assist in the quest for better opportunities in life? |
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#76 |
Student
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 28
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Well I found this -
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Annie S. Li, Elizabeth A. Kelley, Angela D. Evans and Kang Lee So people with AS can lie, they're just bad at it. I suppose some of us realise that it's easier to be honest, since we are so bad at telling lies? I know from my experience I can tell lies, but I really don't like it, and prefer to be honest. As for loyalty, nothing came up on pubmed, but it's possible it's related to our difficulty with lying? If you don't like lying, then it's probably difficult for you to be really friendly to someone's face, and then backstab them? Having read Tony Attwood's books, etc, I suppose I just attributed these characteristics in myself to AS. Maybe I'm just a nice person ![]() AS for trying to put a "positive spin" to try and make us look "good", when you live with something like AS it's very easy to get depressed about all of the negatives that come with it, such as loneliness and isolation. Especially when some people view autism as a terrible tragedy (maybe it is for the extreme end of the spectrum?). However, since it's something I'm stuck with I try to focus on the positives, to make life a bit easier. I don't want to see myself as a tragedy, and I do believe there are positives to having AS. Although, I am well aware that it isn't all "good" and if some autistic people want cured then so be it. If they ever invented a cure for autism I would really have to think about whether I wanted to take it or not. It wouldn't be as easy a decision as say taking a cure for cancer, because I feel AS is a fundemental part of who I am, and I'm not sure I'd want to change that. |
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#77 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,107
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Originally Posted by UncaYimmy
My apologies, by the way, it's really quite discourteous of me to respond to those parts of your posts quoted by others while keeping you on ignore. |
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#78 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,107
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In addition to my earlier post regarding the assessment of applicants for job vacancies, with particular reference to interview processes, might I respectfully suggest 'education'? I'm not proposing that 'Autism Studies' squeeze the Literacy Hour out of the primary curriculum, it's hardly a priority, but those neurotypicals in this thread whose enquiries are honest might easily spare sufficient time to find all the information they require online.
I repeat that I didn't come here with a crusading purpose, a manifesto or an 'emphasis on excessive entitlement'. (What ever happened to TubbaBubba, by the way? It surely can't have taken this long to come up with answers to all the questions he prompted. I do hope he's alright.) I don't consider myself an expert on autism of any degree, I merely experience it. I certainly don't set myself up as any kind of spokesperson for anyone other than myself. Again, there are plenty of experts, and self-appointed autism spokespeople, online if you care to seek them out. |
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#79 |
Guest
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#80 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,345
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Thanks again.
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From what I've read those with autism have difficulty lying and seem to recognize it. Therefore, it seems they are less likely to lie. Does that make them more honest? In one sense, yes. But in the sense of being honest in moral character, I don't think it does. There's a saying that goes, “The trite saying that honesty is the best policy has met with the just criticism that honesty is not policy. The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.” I think of an honest man as doing the right thing even when he knows he won't be caught.
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This discussion (at least in my mind) touches on a broader subject we've seen bandied about over the years. As new "disorders" are recognized, there's the reaction of, "Well, back when I was coming up those people were just <whatever>. They didn't have a disorder." ADHD comes to mind as a good example. I think time and technology, especially the Internet, will reveal more and more groups like that. In my own experience I have Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome. I've discussed it here and with people I know. Several have commented that they themselves or others they know seem to have the same thing. They didn't know such a label existed (if they seek treatment, it's often misdiagnosed as insomnia by general practitioners). Most of society considers us night owls who just prefer to go to bed late and don't like getting up in the morning, even though for many of us it can cause practical problems in life. In a way I am faced with changing a fundamental part of who I have been for the last 44 years. The prospect is daunting, and it's going to require a lot of effort to make the change and keep it going. I can only imagine the backlash if somebody starts as DSPS foundation to advocate reasonable accommodations for us. Obviously, if a business has to serve customers at a certain time in the morning, it may be unreasonable to require them to allow somebody to come in later. However, if the job could be done just as well from 10-7 as it can from 8-5, why not let us keep those hours? The natural reaction will be, "Just set a bunch of alarms and get your ass out of bed!" The reality is that it can be extremely difficult to wake up. More importantly, we end up running a sleep deficit during the week, which is bad for health (heart disease, diabetes, obesity, depression). Those who are "sleep typical" cannot grasp what we go through. It's not a choice. I'm sure there are lots of other "disorders" out there. There are probably lots of clusters of similar characteristics people have that we simply haven't recognized yet. It's all very fascinating. |
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