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Tags conspiracy theories , flu vaccine , h1n1

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Old 19th November 2010, 04:25 PM   #1
trusetheeker
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H1N1 Flu Vaccine and "miscarriages"

Originally Posted by Asolepius View Post
No I don't. Most RSM stuff is fine, but they have been infiltrated by the usual suspects. Much the same happened to the Royal College of Physicians, until the President was alerted to what was going on, resulting in its Integrated Health Committee being disbanded. Of course, that has risen again as ... What irks me is a respected learned society stooping to the tactics of the snake oil salesmen. They should know better.
It's interesting that you should mention snake oil as the biggest snake oil scam ever is the vaccination industry by which pharma and the medical society both make huge profits.

The industry credits itself with saving millions via vaccination but denies any responsibility for any adverse affects that arise from its one-size-fits-all preventative treatment. 100s of miscarriages were reported during the last Swine Flu scare (oops pandemic) yet the CDC still claim that none occurred!
As a newbie, I cannot post the url but will imply that you'll find more information about this subject at progressiveconvergence.com's article: NCOW Press Release: "CDC allegedly falsifies reports--ignoring up to 3,587 Miscarriages from H1N1 Vaccine"

This comes as no surprise to those of us who watched the pandemic unfold knowing that it was a scam from the offset. However, it's not an anomaly as the entire modern medical system is based on an illusion that these caring individuals actually understand the true nature of health.

If they did, would they try to heal the body by administering poisons that you wouldn't give to a healthy person?

Trusetheeker
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Old 19th November 2010, 06:04 PM   #2
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Oh, this should be good.

I'd start a new thread though, derailing is against the rules.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th November 2010, 02:30 AM   #3
Badly Shaved Monkey
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H1N1 Flu Vaccine and "miscarriages"

A new member, trusetheeker, wishes us to consider that as part of the global conspiracy to foist vaccines upon us, miscarriages caused by the H1N1 vaccine have been ignored.

Trusetheeker cites a claim that there have been "up to 3,587 Miscarriages from H1N1 Vaccine". Though, one is obliged to point out that this is the extreme upper limit of an uncontrolled estimate for an absolute number without any reference to the size of the denominator that would be needed to estimate risk. Here's a link to one source for that quotation.

One almost feels pity for trusetheeker that they have brought an elderly three-legged chihuahua to the dogfight, but I feel duty bound to set up the ring and invite the pitbulls of science-based medicine to engage in a little light ripping.

I, for one, had never heard of the National Coalition of Organized Women. Now I have;

"The National Coalition of Organized Women is a verb, an organizing force, a coalescing energy based on the Unified Field and quantum physics which defines it. NCOW has no matrix, no special tax status, no agenda. It can not be found because it is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. All activities arise from the “individual”, his/her personal connection to Source and the enlightened spiritual impulses deriving there from. NCOW is simply “individuals” spending their own time and money as individuals speaking up for progressive change and a new vision for America…and the world."

Nuff said.
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Old 20th November 2010, 02:33 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh, this should be good.

I'd start a new thread though, derailing is against the rules.

Rolfe.
Your wish is my command.
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Old 20th November 2010, 05:15 AM   #5
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So on one hand, they have a collection of anecdotes and on the other, a collection of unverified reports with some possible overlaps that show one event happening after another. Then a great launch to "this caused that" without denominators or ascertaining whether there was any effect on background rates, as it's known a significant number of pregnancies fail naturally.

Dare anyone challenge an organisation that's got the force of coalescing energy behind them? It sounds so mysterious and powerful all at once, well, at least they think it does. It's rather more laughable than anything to see their attempt to be deep and meaningful.
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Old 20th November 2010, 07:31 AM   #6
Emet
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I'm afraid it's more serious than anyone could imagine (even in their wildest delusions ):

Quote:
Under-lying-H1N1—US Bio-weaponry Program
September 14th, 2009

By Eileen Dannemann, director National Coalition of Organized Women

Establishing bio-weaponry protocol, a fear based national and international dictum, has significantly invaded every State, local and personal body part at break neck speed.

But who realizes the under-lying reality… that is…that the H1N1 pandemic is, simply put, a worldwide consequence management drill for the sole purpose of refining national and worldwide bio-weaponry protocol.

Obviously, viral and pathogenic bio-threat is a real concern advancing from the dark high-security tombs of the Dept. Of Defense (DOD), Human Health Services, (HHS) Centers for Disease Control (CDC), World Health Organization (WHO) and God knows what other agency acronyms are on the short list. The protocols on bio-threat disease and dying have made their way in solid style right down through the official CDC networks, namely, our local Depts. Of Public Health where “bio-security” trained administrators, who are being legislated unprecedented authority over our sovereign personhood, have been in their faceless highly paid places for years now.
More of the conspiracy here.
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Old 20th November 2010, 12:23 PM   #7
Eos of the Eons
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Viruses have been around long before stupid humans.

Oh, and the vaccine has always covered an H1N1 Strain, and this year the combined flu vaccine covers the one novel one that went around last year.
Quote:
The seasonal flu vaccine protects against three influenza viruses that research indicates will be most common during the upcoming season. The 2010-2011 flu vaccine will protect against 2009 H1N1, and two other influenza viruses (an H3N2 virus and an influenza B virus).
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/keyfacts.htm
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Old 20th November 2010, 02:07 PM   #8
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In a nutshell, NCOW went dumpster diving in VAERS, created their own poll, banged them together, pulled some correction factors out of their bums and came up with this drek. They made no attempt to ascertain medical records and certainly made no comparisons to national miscarriage rates for the same period. Oh wait, they did and the source is, of course, lying.

Este
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Old 20th November 2010, 09:45 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
..."The National Coalition of Organized Women is a verb, an organizing force, a coalescing energy based on the Unified Field and quantum physics which defines it. NCOW has no matrix, no special tax status, no agenda. It can not be found because it is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. All activities arise from the “individual”, his/her personal connection to Source and the enlightened spiritual impulses deriving there from. NCOW is simply “individuals” spending their own time and money as individuals speaking up for progressive change and a new vision for America…and the world."

Nuff said.
It is interesting that she has not quite organized an actual website for NCOW. Most of the googles go to http://www.progressiveconvergence.com/ .... which has a big headline on top saying "Join the Student Vaccine Liberation Army", plus lots of other anti-vaccine articles. Not exactly without bias.

Oh, and it blasts obnoxious music out of my speakers. Idiotic, plus stupid.
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Old 21st November 2010, 01:12 AM   #10
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How sad that a vaccine which protects pregnant women from a potentially fatal flu infection is actively campaigned against by people who imagine things for which there is no real evidence.

Did any of you see Jesse Ventura's CT program on the H1N1 vaccine? He interviewed people (some Dr "hiding in Costa Rica" and our CT friend Alex Jones) who claimed the H1N1 vaccine was supposed to kill 5/6th of the world's population because some secret world cabal doesn't want the masses using up the world's resources. Problem is, Ventura's program didn't air until long after the vaccine had been given to millions around the world. So the program was claiming all the people who got the vaccine should be dead by now.

Now that I think about it, maybe Ventura realized how irresponsible it would have been to air that program while the public health was promoting the vaccine.
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Old 21st November 2010, 04:07 PM   #11
trusetheeker
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
A new member, trusetheeker, ... that as part of the global conspiracy to foist vaccines upon us, miscarriages caused by the H1N1 vaccine have been ignored.

Trusetheeker cites a claim that there have been "up to 3,587 Miscarriages from H1N1 Vaccine". Though, one is obliged to point out that this is the extreme upper limit of an uncontrolled estimate for an absolute number without any reference to the size of the denominator that would be needed to estimate risk. Here's a link to one source for that quotation.

One almost feels pity for trusetheeker that they have brought an elderly three-legged chihuahua to the dogfight, but I feel duty bound to set up the ring and invite the pitbulls of science-based medicine to engage in a little light ripping.

I, for one, had never heard of the National Coalition of Organized Women. Now I have;

"The ... is a verb, an organizing force, a coalescing energy based on the Unified Field and quantum physics which defines it. NCOW has no matrix, no special tax status, no agenda. It can not be found because it is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. All activities arise from the “individual”, his/her personal connection to Source and the enlightened spiritual impulses deriving there from. NCOW is simply “individuals” spending their own time and money as individuals speaking up for progressive change and a new vision for America…and the world."

Nuff said.

Badly Shaved Monkey,

So kind of you to respond to my post.

It's curious that you chose to pick out one specific element of my post for consideration and completely ignore the other points. I'm used to this sort of behaviour in other forums but perhaps I thought a science-based forum would be above such tactics.

There's no need to feel sorry for me as I'm here to learn and any valid argument/evidence presented will only enlighten me. My opinion is merely the conclusion that I reached based on the evidence available to me at any one moment and it is not my intention to defend it to the death. Every new piece of information has the potential to change my mind and that's as it should be.

You quoted from the Eileen Dannemann's bio (see your NCOW link) but didn't see fit to post her reason for keeping NCOW free from non-profit status.

Quote:
Ms. Dannemann became aware during the Kucinich campaign, that non-profit status hampered the activity of activists and their organizations as it pertained to top down political action. Non–profits were unable to “endorse” candidates even though the candidate supported the very issues that they represented. She found that non-profit organizations were in such fear of losing their tax status that they invariably put more boundaries on their activities than were even required. As individuals, however no such restrictions pertained, hence… the National Coalition of Organized Women (and the men who love us), a coalescing force of like minded, extremely organized individuals.
Free and independent thought is becoming rarer over time and even in our "free" society, there are penalties for going against the grain. If Ms. Dannemann is correct, the threat of losing non-profit tax status is just another method for taming dissent.

I've read ahead on several replies to this thread and with one exception, so far I'm just seeing a number of "we know better" posts with bold claims and no supporting evidence. No doubt the big guns will step in later.

Yours Truly,
Trusetheeker
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Old 21st November 2010, 05:35 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by trusetheeker View Post
I've read ahead on several replies to this thread and with one exception, so far I'm just seeing a number of "we know better" posts with bold claims and no supporting evidence. No doubt the big guns will step in later.

Yours Truly,
Trusetheeker
Are you saying that creating your own poll, with no methodology reported, using VAERS and absolutely no confirmatory information is evidence of anything? Why is it that you are so willing to accept such poor-quality information without question but then demand that everyone supply you with impeccable information to the contrary? Didn't you bother to do this work to begin with?

Este
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Old 21st November 2010, 07:23 PM   #13
Emet
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Originally Posted by trusetheeker View Post
It's interesting that you should mention snake oil as the biggest snake oil scam ever is the vaccination industry by which pharma and the medical society both make huge profits.
My flu vaccine cost $30. Do you have evidence for this claim?

Quote:
This comes as no surprise to those of us who watched the pandemic unfold knowing that it was a scam from the offset. However, it's not an anomaly as the entire modern medical system is based on an illusion that these caring individuals actually understand the true nature of health.
Who is this "us" you speak of?
Evidence? Do you have any idea how epidemiologists go about their jobs?

Quote:
If they did, would they try to heal the body by administering poisons that you wouldn't give to a healthy person?
Trusetheeker
Are you speaking of vaccines? They are not poisons. They do not heal the body. They are preventive in nature.

Do you know anything about the morbidity and mortality of any infectious diseases--especially viruses?
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Old 21st November 2010, 07:27 PM   #14
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*Grabs popcorn, soda, and flu-shot*
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Old 21st November 2010, 08:31 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Emet View Post
My flu vaccine cost $30. Do you have evidence for this claim?
I charge $20. I could charge $30 because that is what insurers will reimburse. But I have low overhead and mostly long term loyal customers, so I charge $20.

And I have had my vaccination, get one every year. I'll be giving my son his this weekend. He's 21 and I've personally given him a flu vaccine every year of his life.

Three years ago a previously healthy 20 yr old going to the same college as my son, living in the next dorm over contracted influenza and died. I can't tell you how sad I was that boy did not know to get a flu vaccination. It was a needless preventable death. A free vaccine in the case of this kid would have prevented his death. Flu vaccine is free from the student health service at the university my son attends. So very sad.

And in the case of this 20 yr old, he had excellent care at the hospital but there was nothing they were able to do for him. His lungs failed and there was nothing they could do.
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Old 21st November 2010, 11:34 PM   #16
Badly Shaved Monkey
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Originally Posted by trusetheeker View Post
It's curious that you chose to pick out one specific element of my post for consideration and completely ignore the other points.
Um, I picked out the quantifiable claim that was central to your argument and provided a link to a source that you could not give directly.

You have read the criticism of that claim. You have also been challenged to substantiate your other claims. Please, defend your assertions.

You claim to have a mind open to change. Let's see you demonstrate the validity of that statement.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 05:56 AM   #17
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My Flu shot is free. No doubt the Govt paid a company down the line somewhere to produce the vaccine but they obviously think the cost is outweighed by the benefits or it wouldn't be offered. In the UK Doctors can't offer drugs on the NHS that haven't been approved. News items pop up all the time about new treatments and how NICE won't give them the go ahaed for months or even years sometimes.

How is that a scam?
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Old 22nd November 2010, 06:40 AM   #18
trusetheeker
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Originally Posted by Emet View Post
I'm afraid it's more serious than anyone could imagine (even in their wildest delusions ):

Quote:
Under-lying-H1N1—US Bio-weaponry Program
September 14th, 2009

By Eileen Dannemann, director National Coalition of Organized Women

Establishing bio-weaponry protocol, a fear based national and international dictum, has significantly invaded every State, local and personal body part at break neck speed.

But who realizes the under-lying reality… that is…that the H1N1 pandemic is, simply put, a worldwide consequence management drill for the sole purpose of refining national and worldwide bio-weaponry protocol.

Obviously, viral and pathogenic bio-threat is a real concern advancing from the dark high-security tombs of the Dept. Of Defense (DOD), Human Health Services, (HHS) Centers for Disease Control (CDC), World Health Organization (WHO) and God knows what other agency acronyms are on the short list. The protocols on bio-threat disease and dying have made their way in solid style right down through the official CDC networks, namely, our local Depts. Of Public Health where “bio-security” trained administrators, who are being legislated unprecedented authority over our sovereign personhood, have been in their faceless highly paid places for years now.
More of the conspiracy here.
EMET,

Thanks for this information but unfortunately the link you provided isn't working for me. I'll have a search and see if I can find another source.

I take it that you don't give credence to any of these governments and mad-scientists conspiracy theories which of course would include all of the ones that are now confirmed as true.

For example, the U.S. Public Health Service Syphilis Study at Tuskegee. Bill Clinton's apology to blacks in Alabama who were used for scientific study without their knowledge may have closed the account for this specific abuse of authority but there's plenty more where that came from. Check the CDC's website for clintonp.htm in the tuskegee folder for more information. (I'll soon have 15 posts and can get around this URL limitation!)

The "authorities" prove to us time and time again that they cannot be trusted and yet almost every day, there's another supporter telling us that we should have faith in them. I'm personally dumbfounded by this sheep mentality.

Yours truly,
Trusetheeker
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Old 22nd November 2010, 07:06 AM   #19
Emet
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Originally Posted by trusetheeker View Post
EMET,

Thanks for this information but unfortunately the link you provided isn't working for me. I'll have a search and see if I can find another source.

I take it that you don't give credence to any of these governments and mad-scientists conspiracy theories which of course would include all of the ones that are now confirmed as true.

For example, the U.S. Public Health Service Syphilis Study at Tuskegee. Bill Clinton's apology to blacks in Alabama who were used for scientific study without their knowledge may have closed the account for this specific abuse of authority but there's plenty more where that came from. Check the CDC's website for clintonp.htm in the tuskegee folder for more information. (I'll soon have 15 posts and can get around this URL limitation!)

The "authorities" prove to us time and time again that they cannot be trusted and yet almost every day, there's another supporter telling us that we should have faith in them. I'm personally dumbfounded by this sheep mentality.

Yours truly,
Trusetheeker
Sorry the link didn't work. I make it a habit to check my links in the preview panel, and it worked--however, it is not working today. I'll repost it here:

http://www.pandemicfluonline.com/?p=1105

(I found it again by simply copying/pasting the title: "Under-lying-H1N1—US Bio-weaponry Program September 14th, 2009"--it showed back up as the second Google hit-- in case it doesn't work after some time)

I am quite familiar with The Tuskeegee experiment--it lasted way too long, and was criminal. I, for one, am glad the issue belatedly came to light, and Clinton made the public statement he did.

Do you know of anything remotely similar happening today?

I am not a member of the sheeple community. I am a scientist and a skeptic. But once again, you make blanket generalized statements that make you appear to be a conspiracy theory believer.

(BTW, you can either get your post count up by playing in community, or post the url without the http:// (I think).
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Old 22nd November 2010, 08:26 AM   #20
Eos of the Eons
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Originally Posted by Estellea View Post
In a nutshell, NCOW went dumpster diving in VAERS, created their own poll, banged them together, pulled some correction factors out of their bums and came up with this drek. They made no attempt to ascertain medical records and certainly made no comparisons to national miscarriage rates for the same period. Oh wait, they did and the source is, of course, lying.

Este
NOt only that, but they ignore that pregnant women die more of the flu, and ignore the miscarriage rates of women with the flu! They'd rather lie to sell their alternatives and don't give a rat's *** about pregnant women or unborn babies!
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Old 22nd November 2010, 08:34 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Emet View Post
Sorry the link didn't work. I make it a habit to check my links in the preview panel, and it worked--however, it is not working today. I'll repost it here:

http://www.pandemicfluonline.com/?p=1105

(I found it again by simply copying/pasting the title: "Under-lying-H1N1—US Bio-weaponry Program September 14th, 2009"--it showed back up as the second Google hit-- in case it doesn't work after some time)

I am quite familiar with The Tuskeegee experiment--it lasted way too long, and was criminal. I, for one, am glad the issue belatedly came to light, and Clinton made the public statement he did.

Do you know of anything remotely similar happening today?

I am not a member of the sheeple community. I am a scientist and a skeptic. But once again, you make blanket generalized statements that make you appear to be a conspiracy theory believer.

(BTW, you can either get your post count up by playing in community, or post the url without the http:// (I think).
Exactly. Not only that, but what the FRACK does Tuskeegee have to do with vaccines???? So, some men with syphilis, who got it all on their OWN, didn't get a treatment they didn't even know existed. I would the think the alties would be happy they didn't get drugs. It shows perfectly what would have happened if they were treated with homeopathy or back cracking instead of DRUGS. That's what they advocate anyways. I'm sure they are quite happy these men weren't poisoned with nasty drugs or vaccines. So, some babies died because they weren't treated, but that is what happens when you don't vaccinate them too. Rejoice in the fact that that part of the community was drug free! Turned out great didn't it?

Nice attempt at going off topic by the OPer, but let's try to stick to vaccines in this thread!
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Old 22nd November 2010, 08:42 AM   #22
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Actually, if you go by VAERS, women who get vaccinated get LESS miscarriages. Of course, that would be a misuse of the information... but antivaxxers do it all the time!!! So...

Quote:
There were 20 reports of miscarriage, amounting to an overall rate of two per one million vaccinated pregnant women (what percent is that, hey??? -And it's VAERS, not confirmed reports! Could be they were at risk of miscarriage for other reasons!).
By comparison, between 10 per cent and 20 per cent of U.S. pregnant women suffer miscarriages, with the rate varying by age.
So far less vaccinated woment get miscarriages than the regular rate in the population. By antivaxxer logic when using VAERS as a source, all pregnant women should get flu shots to prevent miscarriages!!

http://www.canada.com/health/shots+s...658/story.html
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Old 22nd November 2010, 08:56 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by trusetheeker View Post

The "authorities" prove to us time and time again that they cannot be trusted and yet almost every day, there's another supporter telling us that we should have faith in them. I'm personally dumbfounded by this sheep mentality.
I have two words for you. Tu quoqe.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 09:01 AM   #24
Eos of the Eons
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Originally Posted by technoextreme View Post
I have two words for you. Tu quoqe.
Not only that, I've never had an "authority" tell me to trust them. Instead, folks who actually do the science say "look at this" and show you what they've done step by step and study by study, and leave you to assess the conclusions and findings on your own if you bother to do the work.

Instead, it's the alties that misquote, cherry pick and then tell you to trust their BS and buy their unproven worthless expensive crap
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Old 22nd November 2010, 11:27 AM   #25
trusetheeker
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Originally Posted by Estellea View Post
In a nutshell, NCOW went dumpster diving in VAERS, created their own poll, banged them together, pulled some correction factors out of their bums and came up with this drek. They made no attempt to ascertain medical records and certainly made no comparisons to national miscarriage rates for the same period. Oh wait, they did and the source is, of course, lying.

Este

Nice one, Este! Although I'm giving you undue credit by replying to your post, I'm just embarrassingly curious about your comment "Oh wait, they did and the source is, of course, lying."

Would it be too much to ask you to explain this comment?

While I'm here, let me just say that whether or not the miscarriages and maternal deaths were actually adverse affects of the flu vaccine, the point is that they are being dismissed out of hand. They're bloody quick to label any deaths as being caused by swine flu even without a lab test but teflon-coated and quick with the incident rates, etc if the death occurred post-vaccination.

As I'm still precluded from posting links, I can only point you in the direction of CBSnews_investigates story from 21 Oct 2009 (filename: main5404829.shtml) Swine Flu Cases Overestimated?

Quote:
(CBS) If you've been diagnosed "probable" or "presumed" 2009 H1N1 or "swine flu" in recent months, you may be surprised to know this: odds are you didn’t have H1N1 flu.

In fact, you probably didn’t have flu at all. That's according to state-by-state test results obtained in a three-month-long CBS News investigation.

The ramifications of this finding are important. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and Britain's National Health Service, once you have H1N1 flu, you're immune from future outbreaks of the same virus. Those who think they've had H1N1 flu -- but haven't -- might mistakenly presume they're immune. As a result, they might skip taking a vaccine that could help them, and expose themselves to others with H1N1 flu under the mistaken belief they won't catch it. Parents might not keep sick children home from school, mistakenly believing they've already had H1N1 flu.
Of course, CBSnews would never dream that the alternative could be true, that you actually had already had swine flu and therefore had no need of the vaccine. Either that or they knew better than to make waves!

But then they went on to make a few waves!!!

Quote:
In late July, the CDC abruptly advised states to stop testing for H1N1 flu, and stopped counting individual cases.
...
When CDC did not provide us with the material, we filed a Freedom of Information request with the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). More than two months later, the request has not been fulfilled. We also asked CDC for state-by-state test results prior to halting of testing and tracking, but CDC was again, initially, unresponsive.

While we waited for CDC to provide the data, which it eventually did, we asked all 50 states for their statistics on state lab-confirmed H1N1 prior to the halt of individual testing and counting in July. The results reveal a pattern that surprised a number of health care professionals we consulted. The vast majority of cases were negative for H1N1 as well as seasonal flu, despite the fact that many states were specifically testing patients deemed to be most likely to have H1N1 flu, based on symptoms and risk factors, such as travel to Mexico.

Pandemic my derrier!

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Old 22nd November 2010, 11:36 AM   #26
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H1N1 is only one strain that goes around every as part of the main flu bugs. The vaccine covers at least 3 strains every year. Every year people get the mutated strains as they go through the populations, and the viruses change as they do. Every year an H1N1 strain is covered, but last year the novel strain came too late to be covered by the vaccine normally made earlier, and had to be covered in a later vaccine since the novel strain became the main strain. The novel strain killed more younger and pregnant people than the usual flu bugs, hence the call out to raise awareness and get people the vaccine that covered it.

Every year the flu is technically a pandemic, and it matters not what strains.

Every year they are similar strains, but our immune system is quite specific and we need exposure to the new strains or tweaked vaccines every year before gaining immunity again.



Quote:
While I'm here, let me just say that whether or not the miscarriages and maternal deaths were actually adverse affects of the flu vaccine, the point is that they are being dismissed out of hand. They're bloody quick to label any deaths as being caused by swine flu even without a lab test but teflon-coated and quick with the incident rates, etc if the death occurred post-vaccination.
I addressed this already. People who get the vaccine are far LESS likely to miscarry! The vaccine protects them so that complications from the flu don't cause the miscarriages. What you advocate for is more miscarriages since not getting the vaccine will cause more flu cases and more pregnant women to miscarry. The vaccine has not been proven to be a cause of any miscarriages, and it certainly prevents cases of miscarriages! You cherry pick poor stats to support your limited viewpoint. Look at the big picture for once and stop villifying something that prevents miscarriags! Nothing has been dismissed!!! EVERY reported case is looked into, and even if all cases reported were caused by the vaccine alone (which they aren't) there would still be LESS miscarriages in the vaccinated compared to the regular rate of miscarriages amongst the public. You of all people, who use this kind of data to make your opinion on something, should recognize that vaccines actually prevent miscarriages then!
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Old 22nd November 2010, 11:41 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Delphinium View Post
So on one hand, they have a collection of anecdotes and on the other, a collection of unverified reports with some possible overlaps that show one event happening after another. Then a great launch to "this caused that" without denominators or ascertaining whether there was any effect on background rates, as it's known a significant number of pregnancies fail naturally.

Dare anyone challenge an organisation that's got the force of coalescing energy behind them? It sounds so mysterious and powerful all at once, well, at least they think it does. It's rather more laughable than anything to see their attempt to be deep and meaningful.
Delphinium,

Just 2 points:

1) As I've just mentioned in my reply to Este, CDC stopped the H1N1 testing and just counted everyone with similar symptoms as having Swine Flu and then were caught out lying by independent data supplied directly from each state. Independent citizens doing their best to raise a valid concern is one thing, but the national authority playing loose with figures and therefore lives is a completely different game.

2) Statistical significance is of little consolation when you've lost wife/daughter/mother and/or their unborn child within days of vaccination. Neither is knowing that the organisations that are pressuring you to receive the vaccine are above question and extremely good buddies with the manufacturers who're making profits out of your sorrow.

Are you still laughing or just quietly embarrassed?
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Old 22nd November 2010, 11:53 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by trusetheeker View Post
Delphinium,

Just 2 points:

1) As I've just mentioned in my reply to Este, CDC stopped the H1N1 testing and just counted everyone with similar symptoms as having Swine Flu and then were caught out lying by independent data supplied directly from each state. Independent citizens doing their best to raise a valid concern is one thing, but the national authority playing loose with figures and therefore lives is a completely different game.

2) Statistical significance is of little consolation when you've lost wife/daughter/mother and/or their unborn child within days of vaccination. Neither is knowing that the organisations that are pressuring you to receive the vaccine are above question and extremely good buddies with the manufacturers who're making profits out of your sorrow.

Are you still laughing or just quietly embarrassed?
That's a load of BS. The flu BUGS gO around every year. Who cares what strain the flu is caused by???

You advocate more deaths and miscarriages because you want to nitpick strains. Nice. THE FLU CAUSES MISCARRIAGES. FAR LESS VACCINATED PEOPLE HAVE MISCARRIAGES THAN THE GENERAL PUBLIC OVERALL.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 12:06 PM   #29
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What is Eileen Dannemann's education? I could not find it in her online bio.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 12:07 PM   #30
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Is it worth pointing out again that the novel H1N1 flu last year KILLED many pregnant women?

How many pregnant women died from the vaccine....oh wait, none.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 12:09 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How sad that a vaccine which protects pregnant women from a potentially fatal flu infection is actively campaigned against by people who imagine things for which there is no real evidence.

Did any of you see Jesse Ventura's CT program on the H1N1 vaccine? He interviewed people (some Dr "hiding in Costa Rica" and our CT friend Alex Jones) who claimed the H1N1 vaccine was supposed to kill 5/6th of the world's population because some secret world cabal doesn't want the masses using up the world's resources. Problem is, Ventura's program didn't air until long after the vaccine had been given to millions around the world. So the program was claiming all the people who got the vaccine should be dead by now.

Now that I think about it, maybe Ventura realized how irresponsible it would have been to air that program while the public health was promoting the vaccine.

(Mis-aptly named) Skeptic Ginger,

You've obviously bought the CDC pandemic story hook, line and sinker and therefore are not a skeptic but instead an ardent believer in the party line despite the atrocious level of evidence supporting it.

The CDC and the medical profession have been using the same scare tactics to support vaccination that religious missionaries used to control populations on 7 continents over the centuries - do as you're told or you will die and go to hell!

Most educated people can see past the religious claptrap nowadays but are still blinded by the pseudo-science used to support the vaccine scam in general and in this case, the H1N1 scam.

The trick is being able to even consider the possibility that the authorities are lying to us for fun and profit (but mostly profit!) Once you've stepped out of the box, all sorts of options suddenly become conceivable and therefore worthy of investigation.

Is there a conspiracy to reduce the population using vaccines? Is this a bio-weapon development project? I have no idea but there's no escaping the fact that every vaccine successfully sold to the health departments for mass inoculation represents significant profits to the manufacturers. And at no risk to them thanks to their immunity-protection clauses. Heck, how do I get in on this money-spinner?

Ask Mr Rumsfeld how much profit he made selling the anti-viral Tamiflu during the pandemic or better yet, wait for his biography as he might do a George W and just admit how he suckered us!
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Old 22nd November 2010, 12:10 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
What is Eileen Dannemann's education? I could not find it in her online bio.
She also has NO CLUE what the difference is between ethyl and methyl mercury!
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Old 22nd November 2010, 12:10 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by trusetheeker View Post
Statistical significance is of little consolation when you've lost wife/daughter/mother and/or their unborn child within days of vaccination.
No, it's not. On the other hand, knowing that your wife and unborn child didn't die as a result of vaccination might very well be of great consolation.
Then again, it might be frustrating not having someone to villify for your loss.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 12:10 PM   #34
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I'm sure the families of people who get hit by a bus within days of vaccination are quite heartbroken as well. It's not an argument for a link.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 12:14 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by trusetheeker View Post
(Mis-aptly named) Skeptic Ginger,

You've obviously bought the CDC pandemic story hook, line and sinker and therefore are not a skeptic but instead an ardent believer in the party line despite the atrocious level of evidence supporting it.

The CDC and the medical profession have been using the same scare tactics to support vaccination that religious missionaries used to control populations on 7 continents over the centuries - do as you're told or you will die and go to hell!

Most educated people can see past the religious claptrap nowadays but are still blinded by the pseudo-science used to support the vaccine scam in general and in this case, the H1N1 scam.

The trick is being able to even consider the possibility that the authorities are lying to us for fun and profit (but mostly profit!) Once you've stepped out of the box, all sorts of options suddenly become conceivable and therefore worthy of investigation.

Is there a conspiracy to reduce the population using vaccines? Is this a bio-weapon development project? I have no idea but there's no escaping the fact that every vaccine successfully sold to the health departments for mass inoculation represents significant profits to the manufacturers. And at no risk to them thanks to their immunity-protection clauses. Heck, how do I get in on this money-spinner?

Ask Mr Rumsfeld how much profit he made selling the anti-viral Tamiflu during the pandemic or better yet, wait for his biography as he might do a George W and just admit how he suckered us!
Blah blah blah, and how do you know if skeptic ginger is a ginger or a skeptic? What part of her handle are you picking on exactlY?

And your conspiracy tripe is getting old. You have no NO CLUE about the flu, or viruses for that matter. Yet you yatter yatter on ignoring all questions that require you to think even a little bit about the topic you you keep yattering on, endlessly repeating without reading! That's called trolling, btw, but I'll let the mods make that call.

Nobody has lied, and you haven't posted any real evidence! The flu is many strains every year, how about you learn about that!!

What does Tamiflu have to do with vaccines any way? That is NOT a vaccine. Make up your mind what you want rant about in this thread eh?
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Old 22nd November 2010, 12:30 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by trusetheeker View Post
(Mis-aptly named) Skeptic Ginger,

You've obviously bought the CDC pandemic story hook, line and sinker and therefore are not a skeptic but instead an ardent believer in the party line despite the atrocious level of evidence supporting it.

The CDC and the medical profession have been using the same scare tactics to support vaccination that religious missionaries used to control populations on 7 continents over the centuries - do as you're told or you will die and go to hell!

Most educated people can see past the religious claptrap nowadays but are still blinded by the pseudo-science used to support the vaccine scam in general and in this case, the H1N1 scam.
Further evidence that you have little or no understanding of how the field of epidemiology works.

Quote:
The trick is being able to even consider the possibility that the authorities are lying to us for fun and profit (but mostly profit!) Once you've stepped out of the box, all sorts of options suddenly become conceivable and therefore worthy of investigation.
Evidence?

Quote:
Is there a conspiracy to reduce the population using vaccines? Is this a bio-weapon development project? I have no idea but there's no escaping the fact that every vaccine successfully sold to the health departments for mass inoculation represents significant profits to the manufacturers. And at no risk to them thanks to their immunity-protection clauses. Heck, how do I get in on this money-spinner?
This is getting old, but evidence? Take a drug manufacturer--just one will do. Please report your findings of their total costs, and mark-up, and what percentage of their total profits it represents.

Try Sanofi Pasteur, a division of Sanofi-adventis--do you even have any idea of their profits for drugs vs. vaccines might be?

Quote:
Ask Mr Rumsfeld how much profit he made selling the anti-viral Tamiflu during the pandemic or better yet, wait for his biography as he might do a George W and just admit how he suckered us!
CT---------------->

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Old 22nd November 2010, 12:39 PM   #37
trusetheeker
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Originally Posted by Estellea View Post
Are you saying that creating your own poll, with no methodology reported, using VAERS and absolutely no confirmatory information is evidence of anything? Why is it that you are so willing to accept such poor-quality information without question but then demand that everyone supply you with impeccable information to the contrary? Didn't you bother to do this work to begin with?

Este

Este,

To add to my previous reply to you, I'm not demanding anything from anyone on this site.

I am, however, disappointed that several of you have already shown that you demand less from the authorities than you do from anyone with a contrary opinion. Does skepticism mean blind acceptance of mainstream belief?

I was quite happy with the description of the methodology used as described in the attached document as supplied on the Progressive Convergence website. Perhaps as a layman, I'm too easily impressed.

Far from accepting poor quality information without question, this is an area that I've been studying for more than a year and to various degrees, I'm in very good company (name drop) such as Robert F Kennedy Jr. Is he crying wolf over vaccinations just for publicity and profit?

Trusetheeker
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Statistical correction Exhibit4.pdf (172.7 KB, 9 views)
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Old 22nd November 2010, 01:11 PM   #38
Eos of the Eons
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Originally Posted by trusetheeker View Post
Este,

To add to my previous reply to you, I'm not demanding anything from anyone on this site.

I am, however, disappointed that several of you have already shown that you demand less from the authorities than you do from anyone with a contrary opinion. Does skepticism mean blind acceptance of mainstream belief?

I was quite happy with the description of the methodology used as described in the attached document as supplied on the Progressive Convergence website. Perhaps as a layman, I'm too easily impressed.

Far from accepting poor quality information without question, this is an area that I've been studying for more than a year and to various degrees, I'm in very good company (name drop) such as Robert F Kennedy Jr. Is he crying wolf over vaccinations just for publicity and profit?

Trusetheeker
Sad sad sad *shakes head* How about defining "authorities"??? How about learning what a virus is?

How about learning instead of listening to someone as uneducated as Kennedy?

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=198
Quote:
RFK, Jr. first came to my attention when he published a screed simultaneously on Salon.com and Rolling Stone, entitled Deadly Immunity, which argued that mercury in the thimerosal preservative that used to be in vaccines. It was a screed that was so dishonest and full of misinformation and distortions that at the time bloggers labeled it the “biggest, steamingest, drippiest turd I’ve ever seen it [Salon.com] publish“; “RFK, Jr.’s completely dishonest thimerosal article“; as well as “lies, damned lies, and quote-mining.” Even liberal blogger Majikthise concluded that the actual transcript of the Simpsonwood Conference, described in such conspiratorial detail as a conference in which the CDC decided to cover up “smoking gun” data showing that thimerosal in vaccines causes autism didn’t come close to vindicating Kennedy’s grandiose claims and that “nothing said at Simpsonwood suggests an attempt to whitewash or cover up anything.” That didn’t stop RFK, Jr. from spewing one conspiracy theory after another about how the CDC and big pharma supposedly “covered up” a link between mercury in vaccines and autism, all the while misrepresenting the science.
No wonder you are so misinformed, when these are your sources!
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Old 22nd November 2010, 01:40 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by trusetheeker View Post
The CDC and the medical profession have been using the same scare tactics to support vaccination that religious missionaries used to control populations on 7 continents over the centuries - do as you're told or you will die and go to hell!
Yes, I've heard missionaries were a real problem for those poor penguins.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 02:12 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by trusetheeker View Post
Este,

To add to my previous reply to you, I'm not demanding anything from anyone on this site.

I am, however, disappointed that several of you have already shown that you demand less from the authorities than you do from anyone with a contrary opinion. Does skepticism mean blind acceptance of mainstream belief?

I was quite happy with the description of the methodology used as described in the attached document as supplied on the Progressive Convergence website. Perhaps as a layman, I'm too easily impressed.

Far from accepting poor quality information without question, this is an area that I've been studying for more than a year and to various degrees, I'm in very good company (name drop) such as Robert F Kennedy Jr. Is he crying wolf over vaccinations just for publicity and profit?

Trusetheeker
How it works is you make a claim it's up to you to support the claim. 'We' don't have to do anything.

Convince us. Various people have posted and backed up their posts with facts, figures and references. You have opinion and anectdote.

'Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Evidence' as the saying goes.
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