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Old 22nd November 2010, 01:41 PM   #1
babazaroni
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LA Mystery Missile (Nov 8,2010) need physics forum

Glenn Simpson, a High School Physics and Earth Science teacher from San Diego,CA has constructed a 3d pic (requires Pokescope or similar) to view what he says shows the 'missile' going away from the coast.

Can anyone recommend a good physics, optical science forum to discuss this?

Here's a few of his postings:

Announcing the 3d pic:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/th...497#msg1317497

The discovery of exactly where the 'missile' was launched:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/th...282#msg1318282

A conspiracy by the government to cover up the launch point:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/th...188#msg1321188

The original KCAL newscast (search for Glenn and you will see his request for hidef video)

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2010/...ifornia-coast/

Here's one of his pics:



Glenn is also big into the Bible Code and 9/11 Trutherism:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-fo...ible-Code-3-OT

So, any physics, optical science forums to discuss the 3d pics?

Last edited by babazaroni; 22nd November 2010 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 02:44 PM   #2
rjh01
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Originally Posted by babazaroni View Post
Glenn Simpson, a High School Physics and Earth Science teacher from San Diego,CA has constructed a 3d pic (requires Pokescope or similar) to view what he says shows the 'missile' going away from the coast.

Can anyone recommend a good physics, optical science forum to discuss this?

Here's a few of his postings:

Announcing the 3d pic:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/th...497#msg1317497

The discovery of exactly where the 'missile' was launched:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/th...282#msg1318282

A conspiracy by the government to cover up the launch point:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/th...188#msg1321188

The original KCAL newscast (search for Glenn and you will see his request for hidef video)

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2010/...ifornia-coast/

Here's one of his pics:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...ereoPair1B.jpg

Glenn is also big into the Bible Code and 9/11 Trutherism:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-fo...ible-Code-3-OT

So, any physics, optical science forums to discuss the 3d pics?

The bit I have highlighted is enough to tell me that it is not worth looking further.

If it was a rocket launch then the contrail would not be in a straight line. The winds at different heights go in different directions.

Last edited by rjh01; 22nd November 2010 at 02:46 PM. Reason: Fix english
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Old 22nd November 2010, 02:55 PM   #3
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I agree it's baloney, on many levels, but no one has been able to show that from an optical science viewpoint that one can construct a 3D pic that can fool the viewer.

It would be great if someone with a PokeScope could view it. Someone on an optical science forum might have one.

Glenn uses 3D to 'prove' other conspiracies like Apollo 20:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-fo...-high-interest

Last edited by babazaroni; 22nd November 2010 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 05:25 PM   #4
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Here is a blog that gave the best information and "debunking"

http://uncinus.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/4/
http://contrailscience.com/

though, it provides examples of other contrails from planes that match closely to what was seen in LA earlier this month
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Old 22nd November 2010, 05:41 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by babazaroni View Post
Glenn Simpson, a High School Physics and Earth Science teacher from San Diego,CA has constructed a 3d pic (requires Pokescope or similar) to view what he says shows the 'missile' going away from the coast.
"Constructed"? Constructed how?

It appears that "constructed" is here synonymous with "faked up". Seriously - is the guy saying "here's how it might have looked if it had been travelling away from us..." and then expecting people to accept that as some kind of evidence that it actually was?

Either I misunderstand his point entirely, or that's the dumbest argument ever.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 07:37 PM   #6
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Yes, that's a good question Jack. I believe he stopped the KCAL video at a certain point then selected view A. Then ran the vid a few seconds to find view B. Then using some software(I believe available on the PokeScope site), he is able to align them.

So this is similar to your eyes, each of which are viewing a scene from a slight different angle.

Only one person on the site had a stereoscope and said the contrail looked flat, with the only 3d effect due to the fact that there was a cloud deep in the scene, and one at the front, with the contrail between them. Of course Glenn accused him of being a dishonest debunker.

I'm familiar with the contrailscience site. Great resource for this conspircy.

But, I'm more interested in the science of the 3d. Questions like, for an object 150 miles away, what kind of seperation do you need for your 3D construction.

I just don't know of any good forums for questions like this.

Last edited by babazaroni; 22nd November 2010 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 07:46 PM   #7
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Science of 3d? you need to base it on real numbers, measurements and the like, in order to come up with a plausible 3d rendering of anything.

all he has is video, taken from a helicopter based camera.

He doesn't know the focal length of the lens used on the camera (and it was zoomed in, does he know exactly what that setting was?)

and GRAINY video footage to "make" a 3d model.



Its just his "scheme" to make plausible something that isn't even supported by facts.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 08:12 PM   #8
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Well, the cameraman said he used a 2x multiplier, but there must have been more.

Glenn won't respond to any of the facts presented to him, like the two views(one head on, other from an angle) which show the object approaching. He says he can ignore everything else because his 3D is so powerful, there must be another explanation why the obvious is false. That's why I'm wondering about the 3D itself.

And as far as grainy goes, that's why he's seeking the hidef from the broadcaster. But he says the grainy version is enough to show the object going away from the coast.

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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:52 AM   #9
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going away from the coast/ he's daft

there is not use arguing with someone who is that self deluded

3d is only as powerful as teh nut who created itl.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 03:33 AM   #10
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You can only get a 3D image if their are two cameras. One camera taking two pictures over time from the same point will not work.

Also the further apart the two cameras the better.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 05:58 AM   #11
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OK. I think I see. He used two pictures, taken a few seconds apart, while the helicopter was moving. So you get views of (almost) the same scene from two different places.

That could give you a viable stereoscopic view, so long as the contrail does not move significantly, you take into account the foreshortening effect of zooming in and you get the two pictures the right way around!

I've been peering at some prints I cut out and so far I'm not impressed with the effect. It doesn't seem to make much difference if you switch the left and right views around.

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Old 23rd November 2010, 06:03 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
OK. I think I see. He used two pictures, taken a few seconds apart, while the helicopter was moving. So you get views of (almost) the same scene from two different places.

That could give you a viable stereoscopic view, so long as the contrail does not move significantly, you take into account the foreshortening effect of zooming in and you get the two pictures the right way around!
Not sure that qualifies, as stereo pix are taken at the same instant. The intent is to get "depth of field". If you pick and chose you might be able to find images that prove it was going up instead of down.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 07:03 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Not sure that qualifies, as stereo pix are taken at the same instant. The intent is to get "depth of field". If you pick and chose you might be able to find images that prove it was going up instead of down.


There are actually lots of schemes for producing pseudo-stereoscopic images from a single camera, using movement of the camera between frames to produce the stereo separation, but such schemes are much more computationally intense than a two-camera process. And as mentioned above, it's also sensitive to several other factors, which must all be considered before trying to make a stereo image.

In terms of distance, in general, the farther away the object is, the wider a base separation needs to be to form a good stereo pair. Without good information on how far the camera moved between frames, it's hard to say how good the image will be in this case.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 07:08 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
There are actually lots of schemes for producing pseudo-stereoscopic images from a single camera, using movement of the camera between frames to produce the stereo separation, but such schemes are much more computationally intense than a two-camera process. And as mentioned above, it's also sensitive to several other factors, which must all be considered before trying to make a stereo image.

In terms of distance, in general, the farther away the object is, the wider a base separation needs to be to form a good stereo pair. Without good information on how far the camera moved between frames, it's hard to say how good the image will be in this case.
I've used a pair of Hasselblads on a one meter frame for this purpose. Vernier range focusing is fussy but can be done. I'd be suspicious of "computationally intense" procedures as human bias can creep in.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 09:25 AM   #15
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Found this FAQ on aerial stereoscopy. http://www.stereoscopy.com/faq/aerial.html

The FAQ says a minimum distance between shots should be 1/50 the distance to the subject.

Since the subject is claimed to be 150 miles out, the helicopter would have to move 3 miles between shots. The shots were only a few seconds apart so at 100mph, the distance would only be about 1/10 of a mile.

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Old 23rd November 2010, 10:14 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
I'd be suspicious of "computationally intense" procedures as human bias can creep in.

For this attempt, absolutely. Most of the single camera techniques are intended right from the start to produce a stereo image, and they set things up so as to avoid the worst problems you'd expect in doing this. Trying to apply it retroactively to an image sequence taken from a helicopter, when there was no intention that the images would be used that way, is far more likely to be subject to error.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 10:45 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
For this attempt, absolutely. Most of the single camera techniques are intended right from the start to produce a stereo image, and they set things up so as to avoid the worst problems you'd expect in doing this. Trying to apply it retroactively to an image sequence taken from a helicopter, when there was no intention that the images would be used that way, is far more likely to be subject to error.
It is probably a case of "Here's the result I want, how can I get it."
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Old 23rd November 2010, 11:55 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The bit I have highlighted is enough to tell me that it is not worth looking further.

If it was a rocket launch then the contrail would not be in a straight line. The winds at different heights go in different directions.
Do you think it was photoshopped or something because it shows a straight consistent form, or did something real cause that (whatever 'that' is)?

Also, if you know, did this helicopter crew see it moving up in the air from a lower altitude, or is that just some sort of weather deal, IYP?
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Old 23rd November 2010, 11:58 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by jakesteele View Post
Do you think it was photoshopped or something because it shows a straight consistent form, or did something real cause that (whatever 'that' is)?

Also, if you know, did this helicopter crew see it moving up in the air from a lower altitude, or is that just some sort of weather deal, IYP?
If it was moving closer it could easily look like it was moving up, especially if that's what the observers wanted to see.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:03 PM   #20
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Most of your questions answered in the link below, Jake.

The cameraman was fooled too and did think the object was rising and going west. There have been several events like this, all in the mostly clear, cold skies of the fall/winter. All turned out to be flights.

http://contrailscience.com/
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:54 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by babazaroni View Post
Glenn Simpson, a High School Physics and Earth Science teacher from San Diego,CA has constructed a 3d pic (requires Pokescope or similar) to view what he says shows the 'missile' going away from the coast.

Can anyone recommend a good physics, optical science forum to discuss this?

Here's a few of his postings:

Announcing the 3d pic:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/th...497#msg1317497

The discovery of exactly where the 'missile' was launched:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/th...282#msg1318282

A conspiracy by the government to cover up the launch point:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/th...188#msg1321188

The original KCAL newscast (search for Glenn and you will see his request for hidef video)

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2010/...ifornia-coast/

Here's one of his pics:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...ereoPair1B.jpg

Glenn is also big into the Bible Code and 9/11 Trutherism:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-fo...ible-Code-3-OT

So, any physics, optical science forums to discuss the 3d pics?
If you cross your eyes while looking at those pics,you get a 3D image that floats about a foot in front of the monitor screen.A reverse magic eye effect.
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Old 27th November 2010, 12:30 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by babazaroni View Post
I agree it's baloney, on many levels, but no one has been able to show that from an optical science viewpoint that one can construct a 3D pic that can fool the viewer.

It would be great if someone with a PokeScope could view it. Someone on an optical science forum might have one.

Glenn uses 3D to 'prove' other conspiracies like Apollo 20:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-fo...-high-interest
If I'm not mistaken, if you simply reverse the left and right images, it would make it look like it was going away rather than coming in.
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Old 27th November 2010, 02:12 PM   #23
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It probably wouldn't matter. The distance between the pics is only a few seconds of helicopter travel. Anything longer and the image itself would have changed too much.

1/10 mile separation would mean only 1/1500 ratio of seperation of pics to target distance. Measurements can be made when the ratio is 1/10 to 1/50. One could probably tell depth at maybe 1/100. This is all assuming the high resolution of our eyes. Now digitize then display on low-res monitors (all monitors are low rez, compared to our eyes) and the helicopter would have to travel a number of miles to be useful.
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Old 27th November 2010, 08:17 PM   #24
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You know what I don't get? The why. As in why cover this up at all? Missiles are in fact launched in that area all the time. If it was an accident or anything weird they could have just said it was a missile test and no one would have cared.

There is nothing to be gained by lying about something that is mundane.
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Old 27th November 2010, 09:14 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
There is nothing to be gained by lying about something that is mundane.


Unless the mundane is ............ Sinister! [/BadSciFi]
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Old 29th November 2010, 08:25 PM   #26
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Here's a 3D contructed by Alexy, found in the comments section of contrailscience. This was constructed from one of Rick Warrens pics and one from the helicopter so there is much more seperation. He says it shows the 'missile' coming toward the coast as we expect. May need to be scaled to 60-70 mm between centers. I don't have a stereoscope so can't tell.


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Old 30th November 2010, 10:27 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
You know what I don't get? The why. As in why cover this up at all? Missiles are in fact launched in that area all the time. If it was an accident or anything weird they could have just said it was a missile test and no one would have cared.

There is nothing to be gained by lying about something that is mundane.
That's why they didn't lie. People jumped on something that kinda-sorta looked maybeish like a missile launch, but wasn't. Imagine the flail if they'd actually launched one unannounced.
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Old 30th November 2010, 10:28 AM   #28
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Folks, you can't hide a missile launch. A secret missile launch is in the same category as a secret hurricane. The whole of Miami will notice it.
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