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Tags Julian Assange , rape charges

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Old 8th December 2010, 08:34 AM   #161
Jaxe
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
...
Did you miss the part where the prosecutor stated that the case was reopened because of "new evidence", that appartently being that in the second case he had sex with the woman while she was asleep. The first attempt to create a rape case scandel failed when the prosecutor saw through it, so they rejigged the stories and added a bit more to make sure that it had enough the second time. With the woman saying that she was asleep, the prosecutor has no choice by to reopen the case as that is rape in any book.
...
Just to set the record straight, the new prosecuter reopened the case on request by Claes Borgström.
Quote from wiki:
Quote:
Claes Gustaf Borgström (born 21 July 1944 in Stockholm) is a Swedish lawyer and Social Democratic politician.

Borgström earned a law degree from Stockholm University in 1974. Thereafter he started to work as a lawyer. He has worked on several high-profile criminal cases, most notably as a defence counsel for convicted mass murderer Thomas Quick. Between 2000 and 2007, Borgström was appointed by the Swedish government as the Equal Opportunities Ombudsman. He retired from this post in 2007 to start to work as a lawyer again. At this time he started up his own law office together with Social Democratic politician and former Minister for Justice Thomas Bodström. Since 2008 he is also the Swedish Social Democratic Party's spokesperson on gender equality issues.
Thomas Bodström and Claes Borgström are particularly well known to get involved in high profile, often political, legal matters.
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Old 8th December 2010, 09:45 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No. This is what the Constitution says about freedom of the press.
Right, but there are laws of general application that cannot be applied to the press. And this is where the discretion lies.

If he had simply PUBLISHED every word of what he has, he would have been OK, but to broker it out for payment (and he was paid) makes it espionage.
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Old 8th December 2010, 09:11 PM   #163
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Interesting analysis:

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/41990.html
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Old 8th December 2010, 09:22 PM   #164
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Some more interesting analysis:

http://vancouver.mediacoop.ca/blog/sandracuffe/5363
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Old 8th December 2010, 09:45 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by egslim View Post
Woman gets raped, then throws party in rapists' honour. No further comment necessary.
How Must She Behave to Have Been Raped?
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Old 8th December 2010, 09:46 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
She performed oral sex on him in the theater?

That's so tacky.

What's this about her being asleep then?
In the end who cares. Everyone is entitled to a private life but if you go down on someone in cinema after just having met them, the defendent is entitled to a fairly large benefit of doubt.

Is this the first Interpol extradition for not wearing a condom?
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Old 8th December 2010, 10:57 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by whatthebutlersaw View Post
Most cases are first heard in town court (Tingsrätten) and can then be appealed to county court (Länsrätten) which will typically have more legal professionals and fewer nämndemän. There are a couple more tiers, through which appeals can go if you are not happy with Länsrätten (which mostly handles cases of care orders) - such as Kammarrätten and Högsta Domstolen (Which will typically only take a case if it has the merits to result in a change in the law.).
Förvaltningsrätten/Kammarrätten/Regeringsrätten is a special tier of courts, separate from Tings/Läns/Högsta Domstolen. They only handle cases related to government agencies.
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Old 8th December 2010, 11:30 PM   #168
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In the end it comes down to two things:

1) Did she tell him no sex without a condom?
2) Did he start having sex with her while she was asleep?

If either answer is yes, then case closed, he's guilty. Nothing else matters, it doesn't matter if she gave him head in a theatre or they had sex earlier, if the prosecutor is a political animal, or anything else. If he did either of those things, he had non-consential sex with her, and that in any western country is called rape.
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Old 9th December 2010, 03:02 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
Is this the first Interpol extradition for not wearing a condom?
It's the first I've ever heard of but I don't monitor Interpol.
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Old 9th December 2010, 03:21 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by egslim View Post
Either way, both women did not go to the police until after they had talked with each other and found out they had both had sex with mr Assange.

Meow!
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Old 9th December 2010, 12:43 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
In the end it comes down to two things:

1) Did she tell him no sex without a condom?
rape.
You know, i've often said "not without a condom" and then had sex without a condom anyway, i used to blame passion, but now i know i was raped. I feel so violated... Especially that time the condom broke, all her fault really...
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
2) Did he start having sex with her while she was asleep?
While i technicly don't disagree that herein lies a possibile crime, i've always wondered, did she wake up? how did she react when she woke up? If she didnt wake up, how did she know she had sex?

In the end though, it's ALL speculation, but considering what (according to the law in Sweden anyway) constitutes as rape, he may just have gently parted her legs for it to be considered a violation. And if that's the case, i'm sure he's guilty
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Old 9th December 2010, 12:52 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
In the end it comes down to two things:

1) Did she tell him no sex without a condom?
2) Did he start having sex with her while she was asleep?

If either answer is yes, then case closed, he's guilty. Nothing else matters, it doesn't matter if she gave him head in a theatre or they had sex earlier, if the prosecutor is a political animal, or anything else. If he did either of those things, he had non-consential sex with her, and that in any western country is called rape.
If he was caught red handed attempting rape, those who see him as a Hero would still defend him.
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Old 9th December 2010, 01:14 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If he was caught red handed attempting rape, those who see him as a Hero would still defend him.
And attack his victim.
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Old 9th December 2010, 01:22 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If he was caught red handed attempting rape, those who see him as a Hero would still defend him.
This is all getting way out of hand.

What is quite probably a politically motivated criminal procedure is pretty well all rumour at present. The charges and evidence are being evaluated in GB at present, to see if they warrant extradition. The magistrate has found them to be severely lacking. This may change.

I have no idea to what extent the 'victims', (we don't know if he is guilty yet), agree with what is being done in their name.

What would the people who think he is guilty say if the extradition worked and he was then released to the USA for prosecution. The justice system would then have been clearly manipulated not out of any concern for the 'victims', but purely to use their suffering to pursue other issues. That would be a merely cynical exploitation of rape, and an act of rape in itself.
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Old 9th December 2010, 01:38 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Here_to_learn View Post
Yes, thank you.That is why I asked:
My bolding.
No, I based my conclusion about the Swedish prosecutor on the evidence which included the following from my link in post #47:
Quote:
The case was announced by a junior prosecutor, then within days it was taken up by a senior prosecutor, Eva Finne. Finne dropped the rape charge hours after examining the evidence. Assange stayed in Sweden. On August 31 he was interviewed by Stockholm police.

The next day, [months later] the Director of Prosecutions in Sweden, Marianne Ny, took the case over and announced she was reopening the rape investigation due to ''new information''.

Assange and his team say they do not know what that information is.
So you have a department director taking up a minor case that has extreme notoriety months after the charges were dropped. That smacks of ulterior motives on the part of the prosecutor. One could speculate based on the blog gossip that the director has an issue with men or whatever. The more likely explanation for secondary gain in a case like this is political aspiration.

I understand the posts here with the standard skeptical default position of "the accusation could be true, we shouldn't jump to conclusions," yadda yadda. There seems to be fewer positions in the thread with the neutral default position of, "we have, he said, she said, there is no evidence supporting either side except gossip."

I found a blog with a few reminders about the facts discussed, namely that there were numerous unsupported allegations against the accusers. I would think the same complaint can be extended to the prosecutor.

The rush to smear Assange's rape accuser

I agree that the gossip against the accusers who appear to have acted independently relative to the political drama needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Assange supporters are biased and lots of garbage is being bandied around about the feminist position of one of the accusers. I've become more skeptical of the charges one of the women had a blog piece on 9 steps to get even with men or something like that, though I don't dismiss that charge either. It was a pretty specific accusation which tend to be more reliable than say, the accusations someone is a lesbian feminist with a grudge against men.

But regarding the prosecutor and the prosecutor's motives, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence her motives are way more political than justified by the circumstances.

Also in the Salon op ed:
Quote:
You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to find the timing of Interpol's warrant for the arrest of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, who turned himself in to British authorities today, curious.
I stand by my default position this is a political prosecution based on the obvious. Puhleeese, Interpol's most wanted and no bail for having consensual sex without a condom? A case reopened for no other apparent reason several months after it took a senior prosecutor only a couple hours to dismiss the charges and declare there was no case?

The most likely scenario here based just on the evidence we do have is a couple of women who had sex with a guy, got annoyed at said guy and went to the cops to demand they have the guy tested for STDs. The prosecutor told them they had no case. That would have been the end of it in any other circumstance.

The rest is hard to explain in any other way except a prosecution for some kind of political gain.


All this speculation like he could have raped them in their sleep is as bad as the false accusations against the accusers. There is no evidence the women even made those charges. It could be pure speculation made into 'facts' or it could be how the prosecutor fabricated a case where there was none perhaps by asking leading questions.
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Old 9th December 2010, 01:54 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
If he had simply PUBLISHED every word of what he has, he would have been OK, but to broker it out for payment (and he was paid) makes it espionage.

Are you saying that newspapers can't a) edit and b) earn money?
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Old 9th December 2010, 01:57 PM   #177
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From an ABC News account of the arraignment:
Quote:
One woman, identified as Miss A, claims that on Aug. 14, Assange "forcibly parted her legs, preventing her from moving," "then had intercourse without a condom" despite her protests. On Aug 18, he allegedly coerced her again.

A second woman, labeled Miss W, said on Aug. 17 that Assange had unprotected sex with her while she was asleep.
Coerced her again 4 days later? What do we have here an incompetent adult or a child? What garbage. This alone says the prosecutor is stretching the facts. Women should be insulted with this kind of viewing sex as men taking advantage of women victims.

If you say, "no", sure, date rape is a real thing. But why would you let the guy "coerce" you again 4 days later? It's not like Anita Hill continuing to work for a boss who makes disgusting comments. This was supposedly date rape. You don't go with the guy again if that happens unless you were in some long term abusive relationship maybe.
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Old 9th December 2010, 02:29 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Considerable details about what perspired between the two women and Assange is a matter of public information
Does the public information really go into that much salacious detail?

I think you meant "transpired".
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Old 9th December 2010, 02:53 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Slayhamlet View Post
Does the public information really go into that much salacious detail?

I think you meant "transpired".
Thanks for brushing up my English.
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Old 9th December 2010, 04:23 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
From an ABC News account of the arraignment:
Coerced her again 4 days later? What do we have here an incompetent adult or a child? What garbage. This alone says the prosecutor is stretching the facts. Women should be insulted with this kind of viewing sex as men taking advantage of women victims.

If you say, "no", sure, date rape is a real thing. But why would you let the guy "coerce" you again 4 days later? It's not like Anita Hill continuing to work for a boss who makes disgusting comments. This was supposedly date rape. You don't go with the guy again if that happens unless you were in some long term abusive relationship maybe.
We don't know the details here but a guy repeatedly raping a woman has happened.

This might all be complete BS but I think we need to keep in mind that we are largely ignorant of everything that is happening.
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Old 9th December 2010, 04:32 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
We don't know the details here but a guy repeatedly raping a woman has happened.
...
Sometimes women are forced to have sex and then so conflicted by whatever feelings they had for the person that they do not instantly decide to call the police.

Just like sometimes one will have something stolen by a good friend, but you justify it that they are a friend, and you can't call the cops on a friend, and only call the police when they do it again.
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Old 9th December 2010, 09:38 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Jaxe View Post
You know, i've often said "not without a condom" and then had sex without a condom anyway, i used to blame passion, but now i know i was raped. I feel so violated... Especially that time the condom broke, all her fault really...
If a woman says "no" then anything further after that without a "yes" is rape. If a guy says "no" and after coaxing from here sticks it in anyway, that's not. If he says "no" and then the woman holds him down and mounts him, then depending on the Law of the country (some countries only consider the person being penetrated to be able to be raped) there is a very good case for rape.

Quote:
While i technicly don't disagree that herein lies a possibile crime, i've always wondered, did she wake up? how did she react when she woke up? If she didnt wake up, how did she know she had sex?
It doesn't matter what she did on waking up.

Quote:
In the end though, it's ALL speculation, but considering what (according to the law in Sweden anyway) constitutes as rape, he may just have gently parted her legs for it to be considered a violation. And if that's the case, i'm sure he's guilty
It appears to have been more than that.
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Old 9th December 2010, 09:39 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
From an ABC News account of the arraignment:
Coerced her again 4 days later? What do we have here an incompetent adult or a child? What garbage. This alone says the prosecutor is stretching the facts. Women should be insulted with this kind of viewing sex as men taking advantage of women victims.

If you say, "no", sure, date rape is a real thing. But why would you let the guy "coerce" you again 4 days later? It's not like Anita Hill continuing to work for a boss who makes disgusting comments. This was supposedly date rape. You don't go with the guy again if that happens unless you were in some long term abusive relationship maybe.
Wow, you just did the whole, "all women react to being raped in exactly the same manner" fallacy.
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Old 9th December 2010, 09:55 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Wow, you just did the whole, "all women react to being raped in exactly the same manner" fallacy.
Mmmmm, yes. For instance psychologists have long known about the "tweeting I have just been with the world's coolest smartest people, it's amazing! " as common traumatic response to sexual assault. Call it Stockholm Syndrome for the social media age.
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Old 9th December 2010, 10:20 PM   #185
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You folks might be interested in knowing that Glenn Beck spent some time dissecting the rape accusation against Assange and found it very questionable.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,602442,00.html
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Old 9th December 2010, 10:47 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by BeAChooser View Post
You folks might be interested in knowing that Glenn Beck spent some time dissecting the rape accusation against Assange and found it very questionable.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,602442,00.html
Except that he gets a lot of it wrong based on what we now know. For instance he claims that there is a rape charge from the condom breaking, that's not true, the only rape charge is for the second lot of sex with woman B, the sex that is supposed to have started while she was asleep, and without a condom when she had previously stated that she wouldn't have sex without one. As for having breakfast and taking him to the train afterwards, how are victims of this sort of rape supposed to react?

Originally Posted by aardvarc
Many victims of acquaintance rape are initially unable to identify their experience. The closer the relationship with the attacker (lover, relative, etc.) the greater the victim's shock. Some react by denying the significance of the incident. Victims may not be able to identify their experience as rape.
The whole idea that victims of acquaintance rape should react badly towards their abuser is total BS.
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Old 9th December 2010, 11:09 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
From an ABC News account of the arraignment:
Coerced her again 4 days later? What do we have here an incompetent adult or a child? What garbage. This alone says the prosecutor is stretching the facts. Women should be insulted with this kind of viewing sex as men taking advantage of women victims.

If you say, "no", sure, date rape is a real thing. But why would you let the guy "coerce" you again 4 days later? It's not like Anita Hill continuing to work for a boss who makes disgusting comments. This was supposedly date rape. You don't go with the guy again if that happens unless you were in some long term abusive relationship maybe.
I posted this before in #165, but here is an answer:

How Must She Behave to Have Been Raped?
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Old 9th December 2010, 11:16 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by BeAChooser View Post
You folks might be interested in knowing that Glenn Beck spent some time dissecting the rape accusation against Assange and found it very questionable.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,602442,00.html
What Glenn Beck thinks about anything will have no effect on what I think about it. The man has zero credibility as far as I'm concerned. Zilch.
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Old 9th December 2010, 11:53 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
What Glenn Beck thinks about anything will have no effect on what I think about it. The man has zero credibility as far as I'm concerned. Zilch.
You actually give him that much? Why waste a perfectly good set of negative numbers?
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Old 10th December 2010, 08:32 AM   #190
tyr_13
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From what I've read so far is that while it's entirely possible that the 'rape' or 'sex by surprise' charges are trumped up, it's also entire possible that they are spot on.

For example-
Reported fact: The women only went to the police after they met.
Possibility: They found out he was sleeping around and got upset they were being played so went to the police out of spite.
Another possibility: The younger woman told the older woman what happened and the older one urged the younger to go to the police because it sounded very fishy, and a lot like rape. The younger woman being conflicted like most rape victims.

At this point I think anyone claiming, 'It couldn't have been rape' or 'It must have been rape' is on very thin ice. Nothing so far outright confirms either claim.
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Old 10th December 2010, 10:29 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
At this point I think anyone claiming, 'It couldn't have been rape' or 'It must have been rape' is on very thin ice. Nothing so far outright confirms either claim.
What gave you the right to go around being reasonable and logical?!?

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Old 10th December 2010, 08:23 PM   #192
tyr_13
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What gave you the right to go around being reasonable and logical?!?

It isn't on the politics subforum, so I have every capability of it.
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Old 10th December 2010, 08:59 PM   #193
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Not that I know enough about the circumstances to really be sure, but if I was forced to make an assessment I'd say that in the case of the second woman, it actually was rape (he had sex with her while she was asleep) and in the case of the first woman it was a jilted lover seeking to get some revenge on her cheating man.

I think it's a mistake to assume that if one's a victim the other must be, or that if one isn't a victim the other isn't either.
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Old 10th December 2010, 10:21 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Not that I know enough about the circumstances to really be sure, but if I was forced to make an assessment I'd say that in the case of the second woman, it actually was rape (he had sex with her while she was asleep) and in the case of the first woman it was a jilted lover seeking to get some revenge on her cheating man.

I think it's a mistake to assume that if one's a victim the other must be, or that if one isn't a victim the other isn't either.
It seems that everything the first woman has done has been in support of the second. Sure, she could be doing it because she's jilted, but she could also be genuinely concerned for the younger woman, or any combination thereof.
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Old 10th December 2010, 11:25 PM   #195
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ooooKay, anybody know what the actual charges are? Four counts of rape, two per woman, or one count of "sex by surprise" stemming from starting sex while the second woman was asleep? And does this rape claim depend on the not wearing of a condom?
Was she ever examined, swab taken, to even prove there was sex? Is there a sample to compare his dna to? Is his dna what the lab test request was all about, NOT std?

I'm no Don Juan, but I'm thinking that almost all sex acts are by tacit approval. I've never had a written permission slip. "The boy Scouts, and the Girl Guides". A woman in bed with a man seems to go a long ways towards expectations of further activity. And now it comes down to her claiming she had told him "not without a condom". Yet rape is usually defined as unwanted penetration. In this case penetration* with conditions would have been OK? Is this all a bit much to expect from a guy with an erection?

In most places, contractual sex is illegal. But it looks like we will soon need a written contract for liability purposes. A real legal dilemma.

* OT, is the root of the word "penetrate" 'pene' as in penis?
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Old 11th December 2010, 02:04 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
ooooKay, anybody know what the actual charges are? ?
According to the web site of the swedish procecutors:
Quote:
Julian Assange är häktad i sin frånvaro för våldtäkt, sexuellt ofredande och olaga tvång.
One translation I have seen is (posted earlier in this thread):
Originally Posted by Here_to_learn View Post
According to the Guardian Blog that quotes the Metropolitan Police, the charges are:
Quote:
He is accused by the Swedish authorities of one count of unlawful coercion, two counts of sexual molestation and one count of rape, all alleged to have been committed in August 2010.
There's no "surprise" part as far as I can see, I don't know where that comes from, or if it's just a rumor that being repeated.
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Old 11th December 2010, 02:28 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
In the end it comes down to two things:

1) Did she tell him no sex without a condom?
2) Did he start having sex with her while she was asleep?

If either answer is yes, then case closed, he's guilty. Nothing else matters, it doesn't matter if she gave him head in a theatre or they had sex earlier, if the prosecutor is a political animal, or anything else. If he did either of those things, he had non-consential sex with her, and that in any western country is called rape.
The problem I see with this, is that it msotly come down to he-said , she-said, unless he admits guilt, and bound to go nowhere. A pity but that is what it comes down in absence of any other evidence.

ETA: I am not pretending this is the case, I am jsut saying this will go nowhere if there are no otehr evidences.

Last edited by Aepervius; 11th December 2010 at 02:32 AM.
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Old 11th December 2010, 02:53 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
* OT, is the root of the word "penetrate" 'pene' as in penis?
There you go.
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Old 11th December 2010, 05:38 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
ooooKay, anybody know what the actual charges are? Four counts of rape, two per woman, or one count of "sex by surprise" stemming from starting sex while the second woman was asleep? And does this rape claim depend on the not wearing of a condom?
Was she ever examined, swab taken, to even prove there was sex? Is there a sample to compare his dna to? Is his dna what the lab test request was all about, NOT std?

I'm no Don Juan, but I'm thinking that almost all sex acts are by tacit approval. I've never had a written permission slip. "The boy Scouts, and the Girl Guides". A woman in bed with a man seems to go a long ways towards expectations of further activity. And now it comes down to her claiming she had told him "not without a condom". Yet rape is usually defined as unwanted penetration. In this case penetration* with conditions would have been OK? Is this all a bit much to expect from a guy with an erection?

In most places, contractual sex is illegal. But it looks like we will soon need a written contract for liability purposes. A real legal dilemma.

* OT, is the root of the word "penetrate" 'pene' as in penis?
Wow, this post is just fill of ignorance. No it's not an open invite for you to have sex just because she's in bed with you, and No means No, so when she says No Condom, No Sex, it means No. With attitudes like yours it's not surprising the number of women that think all men are arrogant jerks.
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Old 11th December 2010, 07:17 AM   #200
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This guy ****s attractive Swedish chicks and governments. He's kind of my hero.
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