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Old 13th December 2010, 09:45 PM   #361
ferd burfle
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Or, more charitably, someone with potential was deprived by circumstance of the educational resources they needed at a critical juncture in their development, and succumbed to woo.

But lazy or deprived may be the only benign explanations for crackpottery. The rest IMO involve some element of pathology, ranging from narcissism to "permanently adrift".


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Old 13th December 2010, 10:11 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Wow

I will re-iterate what I said originally... I think the psychology of the crackpot is probably the most interesting thing about them.
The second most interesting thing is the psychology of those who respond. It's like two dogs on either side of the fence barking and growling at one another over a bone even though the "smart" dog already has the bone on his side of the fence.
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Old 13th December 2010, 10:11 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Wow

I will re-iterate what I said originally... I think the psychology of the crackpot is probably the most interesting thing about them.

Agreed. I find their delusions and their supporting arguments quite tiresome after a few pages. I appreciate the patience of those who hold their feet to the fire page after page and month after month.

One thing I find interesting is that both the physics crackpots and creation "scientists" use the same last-ditch coping mechanism. Faced with the cognitive dissonance created when every real scientist they meet tells them they're wrong, both groups resort to claiming scientists are conspiring against them rather than admit they're wrong. I see the accusation of "religious dogma" as just a variant on the conspiracy accusation.

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Old 13th December 2010, 10:19 PM   #364
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Havenít read the thread so not sure if this has already been asked.

Worm holes, black holes, dark matter, anti-matter time dilation, curved space-time, etc all seem pretty crackpot to a layperson. By what yardstick do we measure what is and isnít crackpot?
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Old 13th December 2010, 10:30 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Worm holes
Hypothetical and undetected. Currently unlikely. If they exist, they probably exist for impossibly short times and then collapse.

Quote:
black holes
Predicted by physics. Detected by their indirect gravitational effects. Confirmed.

Quote:
dark matter
A stand in for an unknown. Detected by measuring the precise movements of certain large bodies. Confirmed but not fully understood.

Quote:
anti-matter
Found in particle colliders. Totally confirmed.

Quote:
time dilation
Predicted by Einstein and detected by NUMEROUS experiments. Totally confirmed.

Quote:
curved space-time
Predicted by Einstein. Detected in the precession of Mercury, gravitational redshifting, and gravitational lensing. Totally confirmed.

Quote:
By what yardstick do we measure what is and isn’t crackpot?
By listening to me.
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Old 13th December 2010, 10:32 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by UncaYimmy View Post
The second most interesting thing is the psychology of those who respond. It's like two dogs on either side of the fence barking and growling at one another over a bone even though the "smart" dog already has the bone on his side of the fence.
Is that how you think of yourself when you engage in one of these JREF threads?
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Old 13th December 2010, 10:39 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Havenít read the thread so not sure if this has already been asked.

Worm holes, black holes, dark matter, anti-matter time dilation, curved space-time, etc all seem pretty crackpot to a layperson. By what yardstick do we measure what is and isnít crackpot?
Excellent point! The concepts mentioned above have such a mysterious aura and are so remote from our everyday reality, so (for the crackpot) why not propose any other wild theory that can't be disproved in one's living room?
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Old 13th December 2010, 11:03 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Havenít read the thread so not sure if this has already been asked.

Worm holes, black holes, dark matter, anti-matter time dilation, curved space-time, etc all seem pretty crackpot to a layperson. By what yardstick do we measure what is and isnít crackpot?
I find it it difficult when someone is making a technical argument beyond my means to analyse but things get clearer when a debate with experts starts. I think that the type of criticism that an idea attracts and whether its proponents deal with it in an honest way is particularly telling.

I like what Richard Feynman had to say about pseudoscience, which he spoke of as cargo cult science in this instance:

Quote:
But there is one feature I notice that is generally missing in cargo cult science. That is the idea that we all hope you have learned in studying
science in school--we never explicitly say what this is, but just hope that you catch on by all the examples of scientific investigation. It is interesting, therefore, to bring it out now and speak of it explicitly. It's a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty--a kind of leaning over backwards. For example, if you're doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid--not only what you think is right about it: other causes that could possibly explain your results; and things you thought of that you've eliminated by some other experiment, and how they worked--to make sure the other fellow can tell they have been eliminated.
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm
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Old 13th December 2010, 11:30 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
At the very core of crackpot physics zealotry is the lack of mathematics training and ability of the adherents. How many times have we seen, "I will not bark math" when the real admission should be I do not know how to express myself with mathematics in this instance.
But of course Birkeland, Alfven, Peratt and Lerner did that in actual books for you to read. Which one's have you actually read for yourself?

Who cares about "me" or my math skills? Does GR theory rise or fall on my personal math skills? Does QM bite the dust if can't express it mathematically for you on command? Does Darwin's work become less valuable because I can't personally generate macroevolution in a petri dish on command in real time?

Quote:
Apparently they do not understand that it is totally bogus to reject a mainstream physics concept in favor of an alternate explanation if the mainstream one is not understood
I understand that your mythical sky entities are impotent on Earth. All the math in the universe isn't going to fix it's critical empirical flaws. Your logic is like a astrologer claiming "if only you understood the theory better, yada, yada, yada." What you refuse to acknowledge is that your impotent sky entities have no empirical clothes.

Quote:
-- and without the necessary mathematics the mainstream idea cannot be understood.
You can't "understand" Carlqvist's maths because you haven't bothered to even read them even though I've posted the links for you. Ditto on Alfven's "circuit" orientation on solar flares.

Quote:
This is why the crackpots receive so much derision, which they find so offensive.
The "offensive" part is the pointless villianization. Alfven already mathematically expressed these ideas for you. Have you even bothered to read them for yourself *IN FULL*? How about Peratt? I don't suppose you've read his book for yourself?

If as you look in the mirror and answer that question, ask yourself what business you have calling Alfven's PC theories "crackpot" theories?

Quote:
The real physicists know that the crackpot does not understand the theory he is rejecting, so consequently his rejection is meaningless, like a child rejecting medication because it tastes bad.
Ditto for you folks and empirical physics. You refuse to embrace it, even though it works in the lab because it has the bad electric taste to it.

Last edited by Michael Mozina; 13th December 2010 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 13th December 2010, 11:49 PM   #370
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I guess it depends on your personal beliefs as to how ironic some peoples posts in this thread are.

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Old 14th December 2010, 12:06 AM   #371
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Even if the crackpots were masters of the mathematics, I think they would still avoid stating their case using math. Their errors would be laid bare if presented mathematically. Math does not offer nearly as much opportunity for obfuscation as does prose and they know this very well.

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Old 14th December 2010, 12:07 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
I guess it depends on your personal beliefs as to how ironic some peoples posts in this thread are.

Yep.
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Old 14th December 2010, 01:14 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Yep.
The point you seem to be missing is that unless you demonstrate that you do understand the theories you reject, you are unqualified to do so. Not having the mathematical skills to express your rationale is a dead givaway that you are merely flailing away in the dark!
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Old 14th December 2010, 02:03 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
I understand that your mythical sky entities are impotent on Earth. All the math in the universe isn't going to fix it's critical empirical flaws. Your logic is like a astrologer claiming "if only you understood the theory better, yada, yada, yada." What you refuse to acknowledge is that your impotent sky entities have no empirical clothes.
Yet another failure to provide any quantitative evidence to support your claim. And yet another attempt to cover this up by talking about sky entities etc. You do realise this just makes it clear to everybody that you don't have any scientific arguments.

Quote:
The "offensive" part is the pointless villianization. Alfven already mathematically expressed these ideas for you. Have you even bothered to read them for yourself *IN FULL*? How about Peratt? I don't suppose you've read his book for yourself?
And Alfven was wrong about some stuff. Have you ever bothered to consider this possibility?

Quote:
If as you look in the mirror and answer that question, ask yourself what business you have calling Alfven's PC theories "crackpot" theories?
They have been shown to be inconsistent with huge amounts of data. For it to be consistent would require a whole knew theory of gravity amongst other things.Those who like to endorse "alternative" theories hypotheses that are inconsistent with reams of data and require re-writing of successful theories they don't understand, who's evidence comes in the form of signatories on a nonsense list with a high crackpot density and resort to attacking mainstream theories via the medium of casting allusions to Gods sky entities and such like provide an excellent example of what I think constitutes a crackpot.

Quote:
Ditto for you folks and empirical physics. You refuse to embrace it, even though it works in the lab because it has the bad electric taste to it.
I do it every week day as my job thank you. You, on the other hand, have repeatedly failed to show you even understand what empirical means.

Last edited by Tubbythin; 14th December 2010 at 02:03 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 14th December 2010, 02:05 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
The point you seem to be missing is that unless you demonstrate that you do understand the theories you reject, you are unqualified to do so. Not having the mathematical skills to express your rationale is a dead givaway that you are merely flailing away in the dark!
I disagree. He's perfectly qualified to do so (all you really need is a functioning brain). He is, however, never going to be taken seriously.
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Old 14th December 2010, 06:07 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
But of course Birkeland, Alfven, Peratt and Lerner did that in actual books for you to read. Which one's have you actually read for yourself?....

You can't "understand" Carlqvist's maths because you haven't bothered to even read them even though I've posted the links for you. Ditto on Alfven's "circuit" orientation on solar flares....

Alfven already mathematically expressed these ideas for you. Have you even bothered to read them for yourself *IN FULL*? How about Peratt? I don't suppose you've read his book for yourself?
Why don't you acknowledge that some of us have actually read many of the papers you've recommended? Why don't you acknowledge that, when we read those papers, we usually (though not always) discover that you have misunderstood/misrepresented their results?

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Who cares about "me" or my math skills?
You should. You do seem to care about the scientific literature, but most of it is written in a language you don't understand: mathematics. If you'd make an effort to learn the rudiments of that language, you'd soon acquire a better understanding of the books and papers you've been urging us to read.

Consider, for example, the Dungey paper you wanted us to read. That's a relatively minor conference paper: Dungey wrote at least 30 other papers that have been more widely cited. It's highly mathematical, but refers to Dungey's 1953 paper to justify most of its claims. (It also contains several typos, which make it even harder to read. I don't blame Dungey for those typos. The paper was published in 1958, long before LaTeX. They'd have mailed galley proofs back and forth, and it looks like an editor gave up on that process before all the typos were fixed.)

Because you don't read math, you have misrepresented Dungey's paper, claiming it talks about electrical reconnection instead of magnetic reconnection. That's not true. The main point of that paper is that magnetic reconnection acts to increase (not to reconnect, as you would have it) current at the neutral point.
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Old 14th December 2010, 07:47 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
Why don't you acknowledge that some of us have actually read many of the papers you've recommended? Why don't you acknowledge that, when we read those papers, we usually (though not always) discover that you have misunderstood/misrepresented their results?

I'll have a go at that one. Crackpots don't acknowledge that their references have been analyzed and found to be lacking in the support they claim because if they did they'd have to give up their fantasy. All the lying they do is to convince themselves that their nutty notions have some validity as anything else. Surely nobody else is buying it.

I've been watching crackpots engage in this sort of blatant lying for many years now, and it baffles me. A claim they make or a source they mention gets thoroughly addressed... thoroughly. And they flat out lie and say nobody has addressed it. Experts in contemporary physics are consulted directly, the very people who put up the solar research satellites for example, straight from the horse's mouth the crackpot claims are shown to be wrong, yet the crackpot lies again and clings to his/her delusion.

The flagrant dishonesty seems much like descriptions of the symptoms of compulsive liars, and I'd venture a guess that there's more than a tangent connection. Point out the lies to the crackpot and you get more lies and some whining about being persecuted. Interestingly, rather than type all those words complaining about being busted in a lie, the crackpot could be studying, researching, learning English well enough to explain his/her conjecture, picking up some math and physics skills, a whole lot of things that would help him/her present their claims in an understandable way (or actually learn that they're wrong). The reason they don't? They don't have the courage to find out the truth. It would wreck their fantasies. Plus they'd have to get a new hobby.
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Old 14th December 2010, 07:59 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Tubbythin View Post
I disagree. He's perfectly qualified to do so (all you really need is a functioning brain). He is, however, never going to be taken seriously.
Really? Is your barber, who never studied medicine, qualified to give you medical advice?
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Old 14th December 2010, 08:14 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
The point you seem to be missing is that unless you demonstrate that you do understand the theories you reject, you are unqualified to do so. Not having the mathematical skills to express your rationale is a dead givaway that you are merely flailing away in the dark!
Mr. Mozina:
I recall many months ago, on another thread we were discussing dark energy, which you labeled something like "fairies in the sky." When I attempted to have a discussion with regarding the Λ term of the GR equation, you refused to respond. I admitted to you that as a non-physicist, I had only a general understanding of the equation, but was willing to entertain your comments. You vanished! You had absolutely nothing to say because you do not understand that equation. Others in this forum may see that in some other light, but for me, that disqualified you from having any meaningful opinion about dark energy. Get the point?
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Old 14th December 2010, 08:14 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
Could you provide a little more than that?

Sure.

000404 Religious ideas in alchemy: an historical survey of alchemical ideas. 2. The psychic nature of the alchemical work. 1. The projection of psychic contents. In: Jung, C., Collected Works of C. G. Jung, Vol. 12. 2nd ed., Princeton University Press, 1968. 571 p. (p, 242-254).

It is asserted that the alchemical opus deals less with chemical experiments as such than with what is described as 1. something resembling psychic processes expressed in pseudochemical language." It is proposed that the real root of alchemy lies not in philosophical doctrine but in the projections of the individual investigator. By this is meant that the investigator, while working on his chemical experiments, had certain psychic experiences that appeared to him as part of the actual chemical process. As this is a matter of psychological projection, and therefore unconscious, the alchemist would experience his projection as a property of matter. Thus, he was in reality experiencing his own unconscious. Excerpts from several alchemic manuscripts are presented in support of the notion that psychic projection of unconscious material onto chemical substances is the key to understanding the alchemic opus. 19 references.

http://iaap.org/academic-resources/c...d-alchemy.html
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Old 14th December 2010, 09:33 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
Mr. Mozina:
I recall many months ago, on another thread we were discussing dark energy, which you labeled something like "fairies in the sky." When I attempted to have a discussion with regarding the Λ term of the GR equation, you refused to respond. I admitted to you that as a non-physicist, I had only a general understanding of the equation, but was willing to entertain your comments. You vanished! You had absolutely nothing to say because you do not understand that equation. Others in this forum may see that in some other light, but for me that disqualified you to have any meaningful opinion about dark energy. Get the point?
The point that you do not seem to get is that the PROBLEM with mainstream theory is not related to "maths", it is directly related to that lack of empirical support you keep ignoring.

Suppose we were simply discussing the mass/energy percentages of the universe and you were claiming:

4%(normal matter) + 23%(invisible matter) + 73%(invisible energy) = 100 percent mass/energy of the universe. My basic "beef" is not with your formula:

4(nm)+23(im)+73(ie)=100(m/e)

My "beef" is you can't produce any IM or IE! "Complicating up the math" isn't going to change the basic *ISSUE* and it's not with the MATHS! You keep trying to skirt the basic *EMPIRICAL* FAILURE of your theory by insisting that complicated maths and pointing at the sky are your salvation. That won't cut it. Your problem isn't related to the maths, but the PHYSICS. You have no empirical physical support for the claim "dark energy did it", because you can't demonstrate that dark energy even exists, let alone that it *CAUSES* acceleration of plasma. One *OBVIOUS* force of nature is *KNOWN* to accelerate plasmas however.

I've also noticed another important "point" in these discussions. You like everyone else in this thread (save perhaps tusenfem) have NEVER READ Cosmic Plasma. I doubt any of you have read Peratt's book. I doubt any of you have read Birkeland's book cover to cover even though it is *FREE*. I doubt any of you have read Lerner's book. FYI, I will admit that Lerner's book is the only one of the four I listed earlier that I haven't read yet and I intend to rectify that oversight shortly.

It's quite clear that when you say "no maths" support PC/EU theory, you really mean that "no maths you've personal bothered to read for yourself" supports the concept. It's sort of an "ignorance is bliss" approach to science. Whatever you *REFUSE* to take any time to read *MUST NOT EXIST* in your mind somehow. Oy Vey.

Alfven represents the "father" of PC theory, a theory you are referring to as a "crackpot" theory. Nevermind the fact you haven't read his book yet. Never mind the fact you do not have a Nobel Prize in plasma physics sitting on your shelf. Never mind the fact you never bothered to read his student's book, another professional plasma physicist that studied with Alfven. You've never bothered to read Lerner's book either. In your mind, it is therefore "true" (at least to you) that PC theory is somehow lacking "maths' to support it.

The third clear fallacy in play here is that all empirical theories offered to refute your beliefs must "measure up" to the mathematical standards you created with "magic". In other words you took liberal doses of 'magic stuff', sprinkled them into some complicated math formulas, and now you want to claim that if I only understood math better, I would understand that "magic" exists and created everything we see in the universe. Baloney.

Your problem is that you can't demonstrate that magic has any effect on anything in a controlled experiment. No amount of "math tutoring' will fix that problem.

Last edited by Michael Mozina; 14th December 2010 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 14th December 2010, 09:39 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Tubbythin View Post
I disagree. He's perfectly qualified to do so (all you really need is a functioning brain). He is, however, never going to be taken seriously.
That's probably true in terms of this crew at this time. Birkeland's work on auroras wasn't taken seriously until long after his death. You're still calling Alfven's PC theories "crackpot" theories, even though it was written by Nobel Prize winning plasma physicist. Worse of all, most of you haven't even bothered to read his book on the topic. Why should I care what the mainstream thinks of me during my lifetime? You have a pattern of ignoring the science for *DECADES* and then suddenly doing an about face when the evidence becomes overwhelming.
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Old 14th December 2010, 09:40 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
Really? Is your barber, who never studied medicine, qualified to give you medical advice?
Have you read Cosmic Plasma yet PS? Yes or No? What exactly *DO* you do for a living? What specifically makes you 'qualified' to call the Nobel Prize winning physicists work a "crackpot" theory?
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Old 14th December 2010, 09:48 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Tubbythin View Post
Yet another failure to provide any quantitative evidence to support your claim.
I have provided you references TB. I'm not obligated to bark that info on command anymore than I am obligate to bark QM math's on command to justify the validity of QM theory.

Quote:
And Alfven was wrong about some stuff. Have you ever bothered to consider this possibility?
Which stuff? Be specific. Please point out the MATH error(s) in his work!

Quote:
They have been shown to be inconsistent with huge amounts of data.
Just for the sake of argument, let's assume there's a conflict with observation somewhere. Even if *SOME* ideas that Alfven presented must be discarded, why must *ALL* of them be discarded?

Quote:
For it to be consistent would require a whole knew theory of gravity amongst other things.Those who like to endorse "alternative" theories hypotheses that are inconsistent with reams of data and require re-writing of successful theories they don't understand, who's evidence comes in the form of signatories on a nonsense list with a high crackpot density and resort to attacking mainstream theories via the medium of casting allusions to Gods sky entities and such like provide an excellent example of what I think constitutes a crackpot.
The basic problem in your theory is that you cannot demonstrate a cause effect relationship between 'acceleration' and 'dark energy'. No amount of pointing at uncontrolled observations in the sky is going to fix that problem. Do you understand that TRUTH?

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I do it every week day as my job thank you. You, on the other hand, have repeatedly failed to show you even understand what empirical means.
When you can show me *IN THE LAB* that inflation and dark energy and "cold" dark matter aren't figments of your collective imagination, then and ONLY then will you have demonstrated that you understand what 'empirical' means. Electrical engineering produces TANGIBLE PHYSICAL GOODS. Your stuff does not. Do you understand that TRUTH?
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Old 14th December 2010, 09:49 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by ferd burfle View Post
Even if the crackpots were masters of the mathematics, I think they would still avoid stating their case using math.
Did Alfven avoid stating his case using math? Did Peratt? Did Lerner? Did Birkeland?

Ignorance is not scientific bliss folks.
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Old 14th December 2010, 09:58 AM   #386
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FYI, finding *ONE* issue you don't like with *ONE* author does not justify tossing out *ALL* of the work! That's another of the fallacies in play around here.
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Old 14th December 2010, 10:05 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
FYI, finding *ONE* issue you don't like with *ONE* author does not justify tossing out *ALL* of the work! That's another of the fallacies in play around here.
Anybody see a set of goalposts? I swore they were right here a few minutes ago!
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Old 14th December 2010, 10:12 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
The point that you do not seem to get is that the PROBLEM with mainstream theory is not related to "maths", [...]

This has been addressed dozens of times. If the crackpots don't understand the math that describes a particular theory, they aren't qualified to criticize the theory. When someone asks the crackpot to explain the math and/or to demonstrate their qualifications to understand the math, and when the crackpot refuses to even show he/she understands grade school math, it is certain he/she doesn't understand the math involved in the theory he/she is criticizing. Therefore it is reasonable to dismiss his/her criticism as a pile of manure. And no lying, whining, ignoring, or trying to shift the burden of proof will make that manure into legitimate science.
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Old 14th December 2010, 10:14 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Anybody see a set of goalposts? I swore they were right here a few minutes ago!

The general strategy of dishonesty employed by the crackpots has been mentioned. The evidence for that propensity for dishonesty abounds.
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Old 14th December 2010, 10:16 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Anybody see a set of goalposts? I swore they were right here a few minutes ago!
MM's goalposts certainly get around.
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Old 14th December 2010, 10:32 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
The general strategy of dishonesty employed by the crackpots has been mentioned. The evidence for that propensity for dishonesty abounds.
The only dishonest behavior is you pretending to be an expert when you've never actually read the materials in question.
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Old 14th December 2010, 10:49 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
Why don't you acknowledge that some of us have actually read many of the papers you've recommended?
I would acknowledge that *YOU* have read some of them.

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Why don't you acknowledge that, when we read those papers, we usually (though not always) discover that you have misunderstood/misrepresented their results?
In what way did I "misrepresent" anyone?

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You should. You do seem to care about the scientific literature, but most of it is written in a language you don't understand: mathematics.
Yes, and you'll find "mathematics' in Alfven's book. You'll find mathematics in his papers. I've yet to see you pick out a mathematical error in Alfven's work. Care to? If you believe it to be a "crackpot" theory, where's the error in his work?

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If you'd make an effort to learn the rudiments of that language, you'd soon acquire a better understanding of the books and papers you've been urging us to read.
Sure, and that's what I'm doing. Even still, I've yet to see you find any errors in Alfven's papers, books or anything else. The same is true of Peratt. What I hear are lots of handwaves and tons of comparisons of PC theory to "magic theory". Any *EMPIRICAL* theory will *NECESSARILY* be at a disadvantage to "magic" stuff that you can make up in a purely ad hoc manner.

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Because you don't read math, you have misrepresented Dungey's paper, claiming it talks about electrical reconnection instead of magnetic reconnection.
Where does Dungey use the term "magnetic reconnection"? Does he use the term "discharge"? What does that term mean to you?

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That's not true. The main point of that paper is that magnetic reconnection acts to increase (not to reconnect, as you would have it) current at the neutral point.
That's called "induction", not "magnetic reconnection". There are still "current flows" doing the "Reconnecting".

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Old 14th December 2010, 11:01 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Tubbythin View Post
Yet another failure to provide any quantitative evidence to support your claim.
IMO this is a totally and completely irrational request. I have already stipulated that GR theory is NOT the problem. The problem is that you never established any physical cause/effect relationships between "gravity" and "dark" stuff.

Show me that dark energy has any effect on objects with mass in a controlled science experiment. *THEN* I'll be happy to let you point at the sky and claim "dark" stuff did it.
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Old 14th December 2010, 11:07 AM   #394
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Show me that dark energy has any effect on objects with mass in a controlled science experiment. *THEN* I'll be happy to let you point at the sky and claim "dark" stuff did it.
Here's an example of why there's so much crackpottery in physics, specifically astronomy/relativity. It's the same with geology and paleontology--there is a misconception that science can only function with precise, controlled experiments. Unfortunately, these are not always possible--we cannot control galaxies, any more than we can re-run evolution here on Earth. However, this is not an insurmountabout problem for historical sciences; scientists make observations which cancel out the potential biases, as well as acknowledging those biases that remain. Given large enough datasets we can remove a large number of working hypotheses, and sometimes even eleminate all but one. Crackpots, with a very shallow understanding of science, do not accept that as a valid methodology.
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Old 14th December 2010, 11:11 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Have you read Cosmic Plasma yet PS? Yes or No? What exactly *DO* you do for a living? What specifically makes you 'qualified' to call the Nobel Prize winning physicists work a "crackpot" theory?
I have not read Einsteinís Zur Elektrodynamik bewegter KŲrper nor have I not read Alfvenís papers. I am not a physicist. I rely on the opinions and commentary of professionals to understand the workings of the universe; however, my mathematics training (masterís degree) does come in handy at times.
Fed Hoyle made major contributions to cosmology but later advocated crackpot opinions, Linus Pauling won a Nobel prize but afterwards became an internationally infamous crackpot about vitamin C, Isaac Newton indulged in alchemy for decades after his great work in physics, Einstein never accepted quantum theory, so Alfven (who considered himself to be an electrical engineer) won a Nobel prize and later adopted crackpot opinions in an area (cosmology) outside of his specialty. Note that the accomplished scientists mentioned above did their great work when they were younger; an argument could be made that, when they indulged in their crackpottery, it was in their declining years (and perhaps for some -- their dotage).
But this has nothing to do with this thread, which deals with amateur crackpots who deluge the internet with their ignorant babble, whoever they may be. Such people do not have an understanding of the physics they claim to be criticizing. Without the mathematical tools required there can be no understanding of modern physics, consequently there can be no meaningful opinions. Put another way, mathematics is the language of physics; French is the language of Frenchmen. Without knowing French one cannot credibly critique an essay in French; without knowing mathematics one cannot critique an essay in physics.
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Old 14th December 2010, 11:14 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Here's an example of why there's so much crackpottery in physics, specifically astronomy/relativity. It's the same with geology and paleontology--there is a misconception that science can only function with precise, controlled experiments. Unfortunately, these are not always possible--we cannot control galaxies, any more than we can re-run evolution here on Earth. However, this is not an insurmountabout problem for historical sciences; scientists make observations which cancel out the potential biases, as well as acknowledging those biases that remain. Given large enough datasets we can remove a large number of working hypotheses, and sometimes even eleminate all but one. Crackpots, with a very shallow understanding of science, do not accept that as a valid methodology.
Actually, *IF* you were limiting your "theories" to *KNOWN* forces of nature (AKA forces that show up in a lab), then I'd have no problem with that methodology. Since you're trying to use that methodology to justify "magic energy" based on properties that you simply "made up" in a purely ad hoc manner to FIT your creation theory, based on those very same observations, it's a completely bogus argument.
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Old 14th December 2010, 11:15 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
I have not read Einsteinís Zur Elektrodynamik bewegter KŲrper nor have I not read Alfvenís papers.
Then you personally are not qualified to discuss them. PERIOD.
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Old 14th December 2010, 11:18 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Originally Posted by Tubbythin View Post
Yet another failure to provide any quantitative evidence to support your claim.
IMO this is a totally and completely irrational request.

A request for quantitative support for a claim is irrational?
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Old 14th December 2010, 11:24 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
I am not a physicist. I rely on the opinions and commentary of professionals to understand the workings of the universe;
FYI, this is actually no different than a theist saying the same thing about their "clergy". No matter how much evidence and maths I put before creationists, they tend to "rely on the opinions" of others, not what they read for themselves.
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Old 14th December 2010, 11:24 AM   #400
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Actually, *IF* you were limiting your "theories" to *KNOWN* forces of nature (AKA forces that show up in a lab), then I'd have no problem with that methodology. Since you're trying to use that methodology to justify "magic energy" based on properties that you simply "made up" in a purely ad hoc manner to FIT your creation theory, based on those very same observations, it's a completely bogus argument.
No. When observations do not fit with known paradigms, you must discard the paradigms and endevor to uncover the laws of nature governing the observations. This is analogous to the discovery of mass extinctions (which, at the time, had no known cause).

In other words, "It doesn't fit the paradigm" is not a valid criticism (though, admitadly it is a common one) in science. If the data, even "mere" observational data, support a hypothesis the hypothesis may in fact be valid.

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Einstein never accepted quantum theory,
Slightly off topic, but I'm not sure this qualifies as an example of crackpottery. To me, this always seemed more akin to the debate we expect in science. Yes, Einstein was wrong, but that doesn't make one a crackpot, it merely means that you drew the wrong conclusion. Otherwise all geologists who rejected continental drift would be crackpots (which means, functionally, all of geology at one point).
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