IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 23rd December 2010, 02:30 AM   #1
chainlink
Scholar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 97
Faith-Healer 'John of God' featured on CNN's AC360

CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta interviews Oprah Winfrey's hand-picked "skeptics" who went to see faith-healer 'John of God'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxF8ROlrDSs

@ 3:00 in the video:

Dr. Sanjay Gupta:

"A lot of people out there claim that these types of things that John of God are doing is just quackery, just sleight of hand ... "

Dr Jeff Rediger, M.D.:

"I do believe that some of what goes on down there is sleight of hand, I also believe however, there are things that happen that cannot be explained by sleight of hand, so I have come to believe, somewhat reluctantly, and with difficulty figuring out how to accommodate this in my world view, that the world is a more mysterious place than I had understood."


I think it's amazing that in this day and age, educated people -- faced with something they can't easily figure out -- (even if from a known trickster) will automatically attribute it as possibly supernatural.

One would think that in the 30+ years that this world-famous faith-healer has been in operation, there must have been at least some degree of objective analysis of his incredible claims. But this news show seems to treat him as if he is some complete unknown who just stepped into the limelight: a newly discovered 'phenomenon' that deserves additional study.It's a shame that CNN could not find a real skeptic to go on the show opposite these two gullible people.

So, the show leads us to believe, that because this stage performer has apparently not (yet) been 100% dis-proven, his claims of paranormal ability need to be taken seriously.

Last edited by chainlink; 23rd December 2010 at 02:32 AM.
chainlink is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 06:21 AM   #2
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 21,599
Can't the nitwit producers of these shows apply Google to the word skeptic? Almost any mouse-click would yield a better choice than the ones they put on the air.
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 06:36 AM   #3
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,423
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Can't the nitwit producers of these shows apply Google to the word skeptic? Almost any mouse-click would yield a better choice than the ones they put on the air.
They want viewers...and they know exactly what they are doing and who they are putting on the air.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 06:46 AM   #4
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 21,599
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
They want viewers...and they know exactly what they are doing and who they are putting on the air.
While that's certainly true, doesn't AC360 pander a tad less than Oprah's crew?
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 08:56 AM   #5
Sledge
Grammaton Cleric
 
Sledge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 7,114
Why would I take a medical doctor's word on whether something is sleight of hand? So stupid.
__________________
"The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline

"Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.
Sledge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 08:59 AM   #6
KingMerv00
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 14,459
What John of God does isn't magic tricks, it's flat out ********. He jams metal objects up noses, shines lights, scrapes eyeballs, and makes incisions in a non-sterile environment. John of God doesn't have enough self-respect to learn something as cool as sleight of hand.
KingMerv00 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 01:12 PM   #7
skepticalbeliever
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 201
I was just going to post this. Why doesn't the harvard educated professor present his information in a scientific way? I mean, it should be easy to prove what powers John of God has or doesn't have. I would like to see it.

He hinted there was evidence people were being healed, but didn't show any lol.

My uncle's friend took their child to him. The child suffers from all kinds of debilitating problems from what I know. I don't know what ones exactly. But the kid was not healed or cured by John of God.
skepticalbeliever is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 02:15 PM   #8
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,858
Originally Posted by skepticalbeliever View Post
I was just going to post this. Why doesn't the harvard educated professor present his information in a scientific way? I mean, it should be easy to prove what powers John of God has or doesn't have. I would like to see it.

He hinted there was evidence people were being healed, but didn't show any lol......
It is a mistake to think an intelligent educated person, even a practicing neurosurgeon like Gupta, have learned much about rational and irrational views of the Universe.

On the other hand, a physician has a dilemma when it comes to challenging false beliefs. If one is too blunt the patient will leave and fail to be helped by scientific evidence based medicine. So quite often physicians adopt the position of not challenging people's beliefs.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 02:31 PM   #9
wardenclyffe
Master Poster
 
wardenclyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,333
Remember, Gupta is also a proponent of "Facilitated Communication" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facilitated_communication).

Ward
__________________
~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~
- Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347
wardenclyffe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 02:43 PM   #10
chainlink
Scholar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 97
We can be sure it was no accident that only "woo-woo" people were picked to appear on the Oprah Winfrey show. It seems that these TV shows always manage to dredge up some doctorate-degreed kook, who can then be paraded about, as if to dress up these wacky ideas with the stamp of legitimacy.

One would think that virtually every MD would recognize such things as placebo effect, controlled studies, and the concept of efficacy - all things related to standard scientific methodologies.

But such rational thinking is alien to Dr. Jeff Rediger. Instead he spouts the nonsense of thinking "Gee, I can't figure it out -- It might very well be magic."

The sad part is that these irrational "kook doctors" like Jeff Rediger can enjoy a rich career on the TV talk show circuit, a place where any normal, level-headed MD would rarely - if ever - appear.


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
On the other hand, a physician has a dilemma when it comes to challenging false beliefs. If one is too blunt the patient will leave and fail to be helped by scientific evidence based medicine. So quite often physicians adopt the position of not challenging people's beliefs.
Another factor is that the "alternative medicine" industry has for a long time has been filling people's heads with loud accusations that all doctors are corrupt (not just "ignorant"), and the FDA and drug companies conspire to run a scam. Many people seem to believe this, and refuse to trust the official medical establishment. And for those in the middle, MDs must be careful they don't do anything to alienate them, and push them squarely into the fold of quack medicine.
chainlink is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2010, 01:30 AM   #11
HumanityBlues
Graduate Poster
 
HumanityBlues's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,741
Cnn Embraces Woo (John of God)

I know I shouldn't be surprised by these things. Long story short, a reporter from CNN went down to South America to witness a supposed faith healer, and appears totally smitten. I guess there really is a sucker born every minute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fg269kzIiE

ETA: Here is James Randi's take on the guy. I had never heard of him before today.

Last edited by HumanityBlues; 25th December 2010 at 01:38 AM.
HumanityBlues is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2010, 02:49 AM   #12
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 37,044
Ah, well, if you mention "God", you see, it means it is religion and not woo, right?

For example, yesterday when I switched on the telly I caught a few seconds of a children's programme explaining the origins of the Christmas tree - they said it wasn't really part of the traditional British Christmas, but was an imported German tradition, "based on a superstition".
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2010, 09:06 PM   #13
MattusMaximus
Intellectual Gladiator
 
MattusMaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,948
This is one reason why I no longer watch TV or cable
__________________
Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher
"We ****** up the air, the water, we ****** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?" -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness
MattusMaximus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2010, 01:31 PM   #14
George II
Critical Thinker
 
George II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 309
I love this kind of "quality" journalism. The more I read about it the more disgusted I get. The thing that irritates me most about cases like this, is that so many people seem to think that they are too rational or too educated to be fooled by woo, and therefore, the BS they were fed with simply can't be woo.
George II is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2010, 01:59 PM   #15
Emet
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,295
Dr. Jeff is not just any old psychiatrist.

Quote:
Clinical Interests: Interdisciplinary interests in psychiatry and religion
Bio: Dr. Rediger is medical director at McLean Hospital Southeast, and an instructor in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. He has a Master of Divinity degree from Princeton Theological Seminary and publishes in the fields of medicine, psychiatry and spirituality. He is medical director of the Institute for Psychological & Spiritual Development in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

At least Dr. Sanjay isn't the current Surgeon General. Science-Based Medicine rated his book a 5 on the quackometer scale.

Last edited by Emet; 26th December 2010 at 02:00 PM.
Emet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2010, 07:12 AM   #16
stilicho
Trurl's Electronic Bard
 
stilicho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,757
Originally Posted by HumanityBlues View Post
I know I shouldn't be surprised by these things. Long story short, a reporter from CNN went down to South America to witness a supposed faith healer, and appears totally smitten. I guess there really is a sucker born every minute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fg269kzIiE

ETA: Here is James Randi's take on the guy. I had never heard of him before today.
These media outlets should try harder to differentiate between entertainment (or even advertising) and news or investigation. I guess the public really wants their investigative reporting to be in the form of anecdotes, glorification of flim-flam, and supernatural explanations for ordinary magic tricks.

I know it's anecdotal but here's something written by someone on Oprah's blog:



Posted: Tue 12/14/2010 9:40 PM

wintryweather : I personally know a boy, diagnosed with inoperable brain cancer at age 11, who visited John of God twice. Both times John told him emphatically - without any hesitation or conditions - that the boy would be healed. He was not, and died this past spring at the age of 13. Do you not see that J of G has rigged it so he is always right? If someone improves, or is healed, he takes credit even if they were seeking more conventional medical treatment, as many do. If the person dies, J of G can claim that it's because they didn't do their "40%" as he mentions in the article. He's covered either way. It's a scam!



( Source: http://www.oprah.com/spirit/Spiritua...od-Susan-Casey )
__________________
"Suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. Suddenly someone will say, 'Plate' or 'Shrimp' or 'Plate of shrimp,' out of the blue... It's all part of the cosmic unconsciousness." -- REPO MAN

LondonJohn: "I don't need to cite."
Rolfe: "I really hate lawyers."
stilicho is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2010, 08:28 AM   #17
George II
Critical Thinker
 
George II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 309
There appears to be two threads on this subject. Here is the other one:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=195627
George II is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2010, 03:40 PM   #18
Kopji
 
Kopji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 8,004
Aargh.

I guess what bothers me is the message that 'John of God' represents a viable alternative to traditional medical care - especially for the poor. I don't see lines of wealthy people lining up, abandoning their cat scans and hospital care. Is this Oprah's personal doctor? Oh no but what a blessing he must be for those unfortunates who can't afford regular health care.

Encouragement to superstitious nonsense by those who should know better.
Kopji is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2010, 04:21 PM   #19
wardenclyffe
Master Poster
 
wardenclyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,333
This is the subject of Randi's latest SWIFT entry:
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...r-blunder.html

Ward
__________________
~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~
- Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347
wardenclyffe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2010, 06:41 PM   #20
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
 
Bikewer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 13,197
I'm surprised that almost no one has mentioned that "John of God" is perpetrating almost exactly the same sort of quackery as his predecessor, "Arigo" or "Arigo of the rusty knife".

Yes, the very same eyeball scraping, rusty-knife incising.... Etc. All about 35 years ago when a credulous book was produced under the title "Arigo of the Rusty Knife".

His particular scam included the generation of unintelligible "prescriptions" written on scraps of paper. No one could read them...Except for his brother, the pharmacist. A few bottles filled with colored water sold for outrageous prices furnished the money aspect of the scam.
Bikewer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2010, 01:54 AM   #21
HumanityBlues
Graduate Poster
 
HumanityBlues's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,741
Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I'm surprised that almost no one has mentioned that "John of God" is perpetrating almost exactly the same sort of quackery as his predecessor, "Arigo" or "Arigo of the rusty knife".

Yes, the very same eyeball scraping, rusty-knife incising.... Etc. All about 35 years ago when a credulous book was produced under the title "Arigo of the Rusty Knife".

His particular scam included the generation of unintelligible "prescriptions" written on scraps of paper. No one could read them...Except for his brother, the pharmacist. A few bottles filled with colored water sold for outrageous prices furnished the money aspect of the scam.
That one faith healer guy that James Randi caught in the 70s getting info through his ear piece (can't remember his name) was back at it again like 20 years later. These things are forgotten pretty fast.

I don't know what it is about this CNN clip, but it makes me madder than hell.
HumanityBlues is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2010, 04:26 AM   #22
Wrathernaut
Thinker
 
Wrathernaut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 243
Originally Posted by HumanityBlues View Post
That one faith healer guy that James Randi caught in the 70s getting info through his ear piece (can't remember his name) was back at it again like 20 years later. These things are forgotten pretty fast.

I don't know what it is about this CNN clip, but it makes me madder than hell.
That would be Peter Popoff.

He sells Miracle Water now.
Wrathernaut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2010, 01:47 PM   #23
Ormsby
New Blood
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2
The popular media has one simple mission - to make money. It does this by attracting readers/viewers because lots of readers/viewers = increased advertising revenues.
News editors and producers know very well that the vast bulk of the population is both supersticious, suggestible and more than willing to believe in the paranormal.
They know that the debunking of faith healers, psychics, religious leaders and such like has limited appeal.
Most people want to be astounded. Most people want to believe something's going on that boring old science can't explain. The editors/producers know this because they themselves have the same needs, or their family and friends do.
There's a saying in journalism: Know when to stop asking questions.
Standing a story up is what's important - and standing up a story that's got the ingredients to attract readers/viewers can be a matter of survival in a very compettive industry.
Finding out the truth of a matter is simply not on the agenda if it means a "good" story may fall flat.

Last edited by Ormsby; 28th December 2010 at 01:53 PM.
Ormsby is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2010, 05:49 PM   #24
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 27,952
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
While that's certainly true, doesn't AC360 pander a tad less than Oprah's crew?
Apparently not.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:48 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.