IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 23rd December 2010, 06:28 AM   #1
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 52,360
Catholic church cuts support for hospital for saving womans life.

link

More proof that they simply don't care about the lives of women.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 01:22 PM   #2
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 27,568
Par for the course. I don't find the situation to be all that outrageous.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 02:03 PM   #3
fuelair
Banned
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Par for the course. I don't find the situation to be all that outrageous.
Absolutely -our reasons may differ though. I love to see religions do the conservative thing because the most important thing it will accomplish is help them hold onto their more conservative members - while, at the same time, driving away more and more of the brighter and younger an intelligent responce might have left them with. Cool by me!!!.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 02:05 PM   #4
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,863
Whatever will doctors do if they don't have committees of Catholic priests to back up their diagnoses and treatment plans?
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 02:08 PM   #5
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 91,482
This is what you get when you believe in some dogmatic truth. You get the inability to see things for what they are.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 02:21 PM   #6
Quinn
Breathtakingly blasphemous.
 
Quinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,310
Most outrageous-yet-not-unexpected quote in the article (bolding mine):

Quote:
"Unfortunately, subsequent communications with leadership at St. Joseph's and (Catholic Healthcare West) have only eroded my confidence about their commitment to the church's ethical and religious directives for healthcare," Olmsted said. "They have not addressed in an adequate manner the scandal caused by the abortion."
Because if there's anyone who really knows how to address a scandal, own up to it, make amends, and do everything possible to insure it will never happen again, it's the Catholic church.
__________________
It's not a matter of living life without mystery or wonder. It's a matter of living life without the approval of people who ignorantly assume that by rejecting the irrational, I experience no mystery or wonder. And frankly, I do just fine without that.
Quinn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 02:58 PM   #7
fuelair
Banned
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
Originally Posted by Quinn View Post
Most outrageous-yet-not-unexpected quote in the article (bolding mine):



Because if there's anyone who really knows how to address a scandal, own up to it, make amends, and do everything possible to insure it will never happen again, it's the Catholic church.
Right on, bro'!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 03:12 PM   #8
Bishadi
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,279
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
link

More proof that they simply don't care about the lives of women.

Every notice the stories about women who get stoned in other belief systems for such items, that appear to go against the belief of the 'system' but in this case, the church (the system) is trying to harm thousands because someone held compassion over belief.


I would bet with a public apology, some big tithing and a few hail mary's and our fathers, who could not forgive?


Bishadi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 03:20 PM   #9
CplFerro
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,962
Originally Posted by Quinn View Post
...Because if there's anyone who really knows how to address a scandal, own up to it, make amends, and do everything possible to insure it will never happen again, it's the Catholic church.
[/threadwin]

And, I say that as a Catholic.

Yours,

"Cpl Ferro"
CplFerro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 03:31 PM   #10
Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,623
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
More proof that they simply don't care about the lives of women.
... or children ... especially young boys.
__________________
Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory;
Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things;
and Knowledge is the reasoned belief in provable things.
Belief itself proves nothing.
Fnord is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 03:46 PM   #11
KingMerv00
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 14,458
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
link

More proof that they simply don't care about the lives of women.
Awful. But let's be clear:

Quote:
St. Joseph's does not receive direct funding from the church, but in addition to losing its Catholic endorsement, the 697-bed hospital will no longer be able to celebrate Mass and must remove the Blessed Sacrament from its chapel.
FUNDING was not cut, just endorsement.
KingMerv00 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 05:54 PM   #12
steve s
Philosopher
 
steve s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,865
Originally Posted by Quinn View Post
Most outrageous-yet-not-unexpected quote in the article (bolding mine):



Because if there's anyone who really knows how to address a scandal, own up to it, make amends, and do everything possible to insure it will never happen again, it's the Catholic church.

Not to mention the fact that they consider saving a woman's life to be a "scandal."

Steve S
__________________
"Nature abhors a moron." -- H. L. Mencken
steve s is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 07:01 PM   #13
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,367
Originally Posted by KingMerv00 View Post
Awful. But let's be clear:



FUNDING was not cut, just endorsement.
Punish the innocent, eh? Now all their Catholic patients will have to suffer.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 07:20 PM   #14
MG1962
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,252
***Newsflash***

Catholic Church opposses abortion

In other news...water is found to be wet, sky is confirmed as blue
MG1962 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 07:24 PM   #15
Denver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Denver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,015
I just caught something on NPR that I think said the Arizona church leadership decision is now being challenged by other parts of the church. I'll post a link if I come across one.
Denver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 07:38 PM   #16
The Fallen Serpent
Master Poster
 
The Fallen Serpent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,139
Is it "abortion" in the sense of the Chruch's general opposition when the fetus is going to die during pregnancy? Keeping in mind that all fetal deaths are medically abortions regardless of the cause, and that generally the opposition to abortion is about intentional avoidable abortions. The story seems to be talking about a case of pre-eclampsia. As far as I understand when pre-eclampsia happens in a pregnancy that is too early to result in a viable induced labor or cesarian birth the fetus is doomed as the mother will not survive to term regardless.

Anecdotally, the Catholic hospital in Portland, OR will not perform abortions but will allow training in it and put you in contact with a medical office that will perform it. Sometimes it is the same doctor. They also perform various birth control procedures and prescribe the pill. You just have to pick up your prescription elsewhere. They also give full benefits to domestic partnerships as marriages, which are usually same-sex situations.

What it appears to me is that the medical community under the auspice of Catholic authority in the US does not necessarily agree with the priestly community on these issues.
__________________
You don't use science to show that you are right, you use science to become right. - Randall Munroe
The Fallen Serpent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 07:58 PM   #17
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 52,360
Originally Posted by KingMerv00 View Post
Awful. But let's be clear:



FUNDING was not cut, just endorsement.
Ah so even before this the church would not put its money where its mouth was. I should have known that the catholic church wouldn't actually do anything to help people.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 08:00 PM   #18
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 52,360
Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
***Newsflash***

Catholic Church opposses abortion

In other news...water is found to be wet, sky is confirmed as blue
Yes the catholic church in its view of life wants women to die with their fetus's like god wants. Why do they support any health care at all, it all gets in the way of gods plans?

A bit of a scorched earth policy, on in this case scorched womb.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 08:02 PM   #19
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 52,360
Originally Posted by The Fallen Serpent View Post
Is it "abortion" in the sense of the Chruch's general opposition when the fetus is going to die during pregnancy? Keeping in mind that all fetal deaths are medically abortions regardless of the cause, and that generally the opposition to abortion is about intentional avoidable abortions. The story seems to be talking about a case of pre-eclampsia. As far as I understand when pre-eclampsia happens in a pregnancy that is too early to result in a viable induced labor or cesarian birth the fetus is doomed as the mother will not survive to term regardless.
But the church wants the fetus to go down with the ship as it where. Better they both die than have someone perform an abortion.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 08:19 PM   #20
MG1962
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,252
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes the catholic church in its view of life wants women to die with their fetus's like god wants. Why do they support any health care at all, it all gets in the way of gods plans?

A bit of a scorched earth policy, on in this case scorched womb.
Well it is good anyone who wants to follow the Catholic Faith doesn't know this. Better that once you are in, it is a lifetime commitment and you can not under any circumstances get out.

And perhaps most disapointing of all the Church has this annoying confessional ritual that lets you get square with the house

Complete bloodthirsty bastards I tell you
MG1962 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 08:29 PM   #21
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 52,360
Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
Well it is good anyone who wants to follow the Catholic Faith doesn't know this. Better that once you are in, it is a lifetime commitment and you can not under any circumstances get out.

And perhaps most disapointing of all the Church has this annoying confessional ritual that lets you get square with the house

Complete bloodthirsty bastards I tell you
Not blood thirsty, merely apathetic. They really don't care about the lives of women at all.

They have been clear that saving the life of an 8 year old is a much greater crime in the eyes of their god that raping said 8 year old. That is why sex crimes are no big deal to the catholic church but aborting the pregnancy in the 8 year old get you damned for all eternity.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 08:34 PM   #22
MG1962
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,252
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not blood thirsty, merely apathetic. They really don't care about the lives of women at all.

They have been clear that saving the life of an 8 year old is a much greater crime in the eyes of their god that raping said 8 year old. That is why sex crimes are no big deal to the catholic church but aborting the pregnancy in the 8 year old get you damned for all eternity.
No problem...next election dont vote for them
MG1962 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 08:40 PM   #23
fuelair
Banned
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
... or children ... especially young boys.
Oh, a number of priests care deeply in young boys...OOOPS I mean for young boys.....
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 08:41 PM   #24
welshdean
Michael McDonald 1967 - 2021
 
welshdean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,134
Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
Well it is good anyone who wants to follow the Catholic Faith doesn't know this. Better that once you are in, it is a lifetime commitment and you can not under any circumstances get out.

And perhaps most disapointing of all the Church has this annoying confessional ritual that lets you get square with the house

Complete bloodthirsty bastards I tell you
Woah Tiger!!

I'm an atheist, was a catholic, [briefly] attended seminary and I managed to 'get out'. My name is still on the list, but I'm as catholic as you are today. The point here is that the diocese is only doing what the boss has done time and time again; feck the innocent, feck every one, I want my blood. Spill it or burn it, it all smells good to him.
__________________
"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."
Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP
welshdean is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 08:54 PM   #25
MG1962
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,252
Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
Woah Tiger!!

I'm an atheist, was a catholic, [briefly] attended seminary and I managed to 'get out'. My name is still on the list, but I'm as catholic as you are today. The point here is that the diocese is only doing what the boss has done time and time again; feck the innocent, feck every one, I want my blood. Spill it or burn it, it all smells good to him.
And thats my point...this is news why exactly.

Lets start a new "was Jesus real" thead, or sidebar this thread with a "All Catholic priests are scum"
MG1962 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 09:01 PM   #26
nvidiot
Botanical Jedi
 
nvidiot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,121
So hang on, it seems to me the hospital is a room up (can use the room they gave mass in) and a few nuts down (no more fiddling ethically vacant catholics running round like they own the place) on this deal, which is overall pretty decent?

If I was the hospital admin, I'd be pretty chuffed at the result. At least something good has come of tragedy.
nvidiot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 09:07 PM   #27
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,203
I would point out that this isn't about them wanting the woman to die, but that the Hospital didn't attempt to save both the women and the fetus.

Quote:
"In the decision to abort, the equal dignity of mother and her baby were not both upheld," Olmsted said at a news conference announcing the decision. "The mother had a disease that needed to be treated. But instead of treating the disease, St. Joseph's medical staff and ethics committee decided that the healthy, 11-week-old baby should be directly killed."
The issue is that instead of trying to find out what was causing the blood pressure issues and lowering it, the hospitial just said, get rid of the pregnacy and the blood pressure will be lowered so then we can solve it.

Whether that decision was right or wrong I'm not going to debate since I'm not a medical expert.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2010, 09:45 PM   #28
The Fallen Serpent
Master Poster
 
The Fallen Serpent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,139
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I would point out that this isn't about them wanting the woman to die, but that the Hospital didn't attempt to save both the women and the fetus.



The issue is that instead of trying to find out what was causing the blood pressure issues and lowering it, the hospitial just said, get rid of the pregnacy and the blood pressure will be lowered so then we can solve it.

Which probably is a misrepresentation of what the medical staff did. Not that this is your claim, but I doubt the Church's claim that the medical staff did not consider how to save both. It is possible the doctors decided to ignore doing their job and just said abort, but that sounds unlikely. Perhaps it was an emergency situation and they had to make a sudden decision. That is quite common with pre-eclampsia. I bore witness to a similiar situation from the side lines. It is pretty rough for the pregnant woman both emotionally and physically. The situation and can turn south in minutes. Discovering the cause of the situation is difficult. Medical staff can do a huge battery of tests and attempt different treatments to see what the underlying problem is, but if the woman starts to die there is a heavy time constraint and not much in the way of options. I am also not a medical expert, so without evidence to the contrary I am going to trust that the medical experts actually followed their duty.
__________________
You don't use science to show that you are right, you use science to become right. - Randall Munroe
The Fallen Serpent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th December 2010, 08:47 AM   #29
Denver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Denver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,015
Given what I heard on NPR yesterday, and read at USA Today, what I think is going to happen is the bishop who was pulling his support, and the hospital, will come to some agreement, that allows the hospital to continue as it was, the doctors to not be shown to have committed any fault, and the bishop to save face.

Probably something along the lines of the bishop saying the hospital has agreed to further training (and maybe process development) to insure it supports the church's direction on abortion.
Denver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th December 2010, 12:26 PM   #30
Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,623
Hostility towards women ... apathy towards children ... sins must be paid in blood ...

Are we discussing the Roman Catholic Church or Islam?
__________________
Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory;
Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things;
and Knowledge is the reasoned belief in provable things.
Belief itself proves nothing.
Fnord is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2010, 04:55 PM   #31
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 91,482
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I would point out that this isn't about them wanting the woman to die, but that the Hospital didn't attempt to save both the women and the fetus.



The issue is that instead of trying to find out what was causing the blood pressure issues and lowering it, the hospitial just said, get rid of the pregnacy and the blood pressure will be lowered so then we can solve it.

Whether that decision was right or wrong I'm not going to debate since I'm not a medical expert.
IE the individuals in the church who made this decision feel competent to practice medicine without a license which is what they were doing by thinking they know more than the physicians who made the actual medical decision.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2010, 04:59 PM   #32
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 91,482
Quote:
Uneducated in medicine church spokesperson: "The mother had a disease that needed to be treated. But instead of treating the disease, St. Joseph's medical staff and ethics committee decided that the healthy, 11-week-old baby should be directly killed."

Medically competent hospital spokesperson: "If we are presented with a situation in which a pregnancy threatens a woman's life, our first priority is to save both patients. If that is not possible, we will always save the life we can save, and that is what we did in this case," Hunt said. "Morally, ethically, and legally, we simply cannot stand by and let someone die whose life we might be able to save."
Ignorant church a-holes don't have a clue about treating pulmonary hypertension. The choice is save one or save none. You can't always just "treat hypertension" as these church ignoramuses seem to think. If the woman died, so would the fetus. And in fact, pulmonary hypertension is a death sentence anyway.


Phoenix hospital that performed abortion no longer Catholic
Quote:
The bishop said that he learned, in only the last several weeks, that both the facility and CHW had administered contraceptives, performed sterilizations, and conducted other direct abortions “due to the mental or physical health of the mother” or after rape or incest.

“In all my seven years as Bishop of Phoenix, I have continued to insist that this scandalous situation needed to change; sadly, over the course of these years, CHW has chosen not to comply,” said Olmsted.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 25th December 2010 at 05:10 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2010, 05:20 PM   #33
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,203
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
IE the individuals in the church who made this decision feel competent to practice medicine without a license which is what they were doing by thinking they know more than the physicians who made the actual medical decision.
Since I would imagine that Bishop and co have better things to do than review every single case, I expect that in this case someone made a complaint to them and they acted on the belief that the Hospital had acted inappropriately. It seems that now they have talked with the Hospital who has clarified why they acted the way they did, the decision has been reversed.

Now don't get me wrong here, I'm far from a supporter of the Catholic Church, but at the same time I am a supporter of only accusing people of things they have actually done, and from this story this isn't an example of them thinking they know better, nor is it a case of them thinking nothing about the woman's life. In fact it's exactly the opposite; they got the idea right, even if they were given the wrong facts.

The Hospital does have a duty of care to both patients and arbitrarily deciding that one should die without considering options to save both would have been a serious malpractice, so believing that to be the case, the Bishop did the right thing. The issue is that whoever informed the Bishop appears to have gotten the wrong end of the stick, and to the Bishop's credit, when presented with the correct facts he's reversed the decision.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2010, 06:16 PM   #34
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 48,056
After the hullaballoo surrounding Jodie and "Mary", the Maltese baby and her non-viable parasitic "twin", I didn't think the Catholic church could stoop any lower.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2010, 09:20 PM   #35
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 91,482
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Since I would imagine that Bishop and co have better things to do than review every single case, I expect that in this case someone made a complaint to them and they acted on the belief that the Hospital had acted inappropriately. It seems that now they have talked with the Hospital who has clarified why they acted the way they did, the decision has been reversed.

Now don't get me wrong here, I'm far from a supporter of the Catholic Church, but at the same time I am a supporter of only accusing people of things they have actually done, and from this story this isn't an example of them thinking they know better, nor is it a case of them thinking nothing about the woman's life. In fact it's exactly the opposite; they got the idea right, even if they were given the wrong facts.

The Hospital does have a duty of care to both patients and arbitrarily deciding that one should die without considering options to save both would have been a serious malpractice, so believing that to be the case, the Bishop did the right thing. The issue is that whoever informed the Bishop appears to have gotten the wrong end of the stick, and to the Bishop's credit, when presented with the correct facts he's reversed the decision.
This is pretty weak argument. Did you look at the link in my post? The issues have been going on for a long time. The church wanted the hospital to stop providing birth control. Don't know what that was about but if you had a medical condition where pregnancy would put your life at risk, what are those women supposed to do?

As for the current 'abortion', this did not happen yesterday or even a week ago. There has been more than enough time for the Bishop responsible for making this decision to investigate the medical necessity of a woman with pulmonary hypertension not continuing a pregnancy. This happened at 11 weeks gestation. That suggests either a new diagnosis and probably a devastating news for a newly pregnant woman, or a woman who knew a pregnancy was a death sentence who got pregnant accidentally.

There are two life threatening conditions involving hypertension and pregnancy. The most common one is eclampsia. It can result in a hypertensive crisis during pregnancy and if it cannot be controlled immediate cessation of the pregnancy is the only option to save the woman's life. And if you don't save the woman, it isn't like you can choose to save a fetus of 11 weeks gestation by letting the woman die. THERE IS NOTHING ARBITRARY ABOUT IT!

The article I linked to said the medical condition was pulmonary hypertension. Life expectancy after a diagnosis of primary pulmonary hypertension is 3 years!!!!!
Quote:
The life expectancy of someone with primary pulmonary hypertension may be approximately three years after diagnosis if it goes untreated or sooner if it is severe or there is evidence of right-sided heart failure.
Do you honestly think a person that ill can carry a pregnancy to term? You just cannot add the volume and increased strain of fetal circulation on a failing heart and expect it not to kill the woman.

On top of that devastating diagnosis in a young woman, and who knows what circumstances surrounded the pregnancy, the woman's plight was piled on by this idiot Bishop who clearly didn't understand and didn't make an effort to understand the medical circumstances in the case.


Your apology for the Bishop is a fail. Regardless of complaints from whomever breached this woman's medical confidentiality, the Bishop could have discovered what MEDICAL NECESSITY meant in this case. Apparently he ignored the medical opinions in favor of his own ignorant one.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 25th December 2010 at 09:25 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2010, 05:24 AM   #36
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,203
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This is pretty weak argument.
It's not supposed to be an argument, it was pointing out something that it seems people here have overlooked in their fondness to attack anything religious without looking at it.

Quote:
Did you look at the link in my post?
There wasn't anything much in it that wasn't in the OP's link.

Quote:
The issues have been going on for a long time. The church wanted the hospital to stop providing birth control. Don't know what that was about but if you had a medical condition where pregnancy would put your life at risk, what are those women supposed to do?
See their GP or local clinic rather then the hospital?

Without arguing the wrongs or rights of the policy (since I personally disagree with most of it) if the Hospital knew that to have Catholic Association it was to follow the U.S. bishops’ Ethical and Religious Directives and it disagreed with those directives, then it should have pulled the plug on the whole deal 7 years ago. To not do so they were basically giving lip service to the church and then holding up two fingers behind their back.

Quote:
As for the current 'abortion', this did not happen yesterday or even a week ago.
It was over a year ago, but that doesn't mean that the Bishop knew about it that long ago.

Quote:
There has been more than enough time for the Bishop responsible for making this decision to investigate the medical necessity of a woman with pulmonary hypertension not continuing a pregnancy.
Of coutse you are assuming here that the Hospital was co-operative in the matter. According to the article you posted "Communication with leadership at St. Joseph’s Hospital and Catholic Healthcare West has only eroded my confidence about their commitment to the church’s ethical and religious directives for health care. They have not addressed in an adequate manner the scandal caused by the abortion."

Quote:
This happened at 11 weeks gestation. That suggests either a new diagnosis and probably a devastating news for a newly pregnant woman, or a woman who knew a pregnancy was a death sentence who got pregnant accidentally.

There are two life threatening conditions involving hypertension and pregnancy. The most common one is eclampsia. It can result in a hypertensive crisis during pregnancy and if it cannot be controlled immediate cessation of the pregnancy is the only option to save the woman's life. And if you don't save the woman, it isn't like you can choose to save a fetus of 11 weeks gestation by letting the woman die. THERE IS NOTHING ARBITRARY ABOUT IT!
I have already noted that I'm not interested in a medical discussion about it, and have conceeded that it's clear that the Bishop didn't know the facts of the case, so what was the point of this?

Quote:
on by this idiot Bishop who clearly didn't understand and didn't make an effort to understand the medical circumstances in the case.
You don't know that he didn't make any effort to understand the case.

Quote:
Your apology for the Bishop is a fail.
I never tried to apologise for him, if he wants to do that he's perfectly capable of doing it himself.

Quote:
Regardless of complaints from whomever breached this woman's medical confidentiality
How do you know that there was a breach of medical confidentiality? How do you know it wasn't her or her family that told the church?

Quote:
the Bishop could have discovered what MEDICAL NECESSITY meant in this case. Apparently he ignored the medical opinions in favor of his own ignorant one.
Again you are assuming facts not in evidence. In fact the OP's article notes that he had medical ethics advisors, so your claim doesn't met reality.

Final note: I thought that in the end you and the other anti-religion people here should be cheering him for getting religion out of Health care by severing the link between the Hospital and the Church.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2010, 01:01 PM   #37
Morrigan
Crone of War
 
Morrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,262
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The church wanted the hospital to stop providing birth control. Don't know what that was about but if you had a medical condition where pregnancy would put your life at risk, what are those women supposed to do?
Why, abstain, of course. We all know sex for a reason other than procreation is sinful, and abstinence and celibacy is a good solution to all these problems!
Morrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2010, 01:26 PM   #38
MatildaGage
Muse
 
MatildaGage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 799
Quote:
the 697-bed hospital will no longer be able to celebrate Mass and must remove the Blessed Sacrament from its chapel.
I am sorry but that is just the church being vindictive.

Non-Catholic hospitals have Mass in their chapels all the time--including those who perform abortions under all circumstances. I've attended Mass several times in a hospital that performs abortions every single day.

In fact, the assigned priest refused to hear confession of patients who had just terminated their pregnancies, and the hospital administration reported him to the diocese. Apparently that was against church rules.
__________________
End the grisly, barbaric practice of metzitzah b'peh.
MatildaGage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2010, 01:39 PM   #39
Schrodinger's Cat
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,456
Originally Posted by Quinn View Post
Most outrageous-yet-not-unexpected quote in the article (bolding mine):



Because if there's anyone who really knows how to address a scandal, own up to it, make amends, and do everything possible to insure it will never happen again, it's the Catholic church.
More than that, there's the complete obliviousness by the Church that the scandal was not caused by the abortion itself, but rather by the fact that it was opposed by the Church and that the Church took the position that the mother should die along with the baby rather than an abortion be performed.
Schrodinger's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2010, 01:49 PM   #40
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 32,099
Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
Hostility towards women ... apathy towards children ... sins must be paid in blood ...

Are we discussing the Roman Catholic Church or Islam?
Yes.
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:59 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.