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#1 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,278
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Flight AA77 on 9/11
Flight AA77 on 9/11: New FDR Analysis Supports the Official Flight Path Leading to Impact with the Pentagon
Warren's paper is hot off the press. Worth a review. A brief look-over compares with the analysis and conclusions reached by folks here at JREF.
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#2 |
Dreaming of unicorns
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 11,938
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I'd like to see the CIT defenders here have a shufty at this.
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![]() Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase. |
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#3 |
Thinker
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 206
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The 9/11 "truth" cult fanatics will be all over it soon enough, declaring the paper a fraud just like they did the NIST report on WTC7. Just give them time...
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#4 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,735
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I was surprised to see Frank Legge listed as one of the authors. Didn't he have some "unique" theories about what happened at one time?
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#5 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 916
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I'm sure they will, since the paper is a big middle finger to CIT. It all but calls them out by name:
One group asserts that the plane approached from a direction which would not have permitted it to create the observed straight line of damage through the light poles and inside the Pentagon. This assertion is based on the group’s discovery of 13 eyewitnesses who allegedly place the course of the plane to the north of the former Citgo service station. |
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#6 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,372
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did you ever receive a copy of the files? if so, was this before warren did?
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OPERATION GLADIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio STRATEGY OF TENSION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird |
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#7 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,278
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If that is directed at me, yes. Warren picked up where I left off. I did not have the programming skills required to decompress the data. All of my pre-decode work was done correlating the radar data to the available FDR data which indicated ~6 +/- 2 seconds of missing data. Warren recovered ~ 5 seconds of data no available in the NTSB CSV file output.
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#8 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,372
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so the file you got via foia also had that data attached to it but you couldnt access it because you didnt know how?
a couple of things interests me: from that pdf file ya linked- "One form could not be understood by inspection and the other, a readable comma-separated values (CSV) file, had some columns of data missing, a critical omission being radio height. After considerable difficulty, assistance in interpreting the coded file was received and the result came into public hands." 1. what is that "one form that could not be understood by inspection"??? 2. when the article states that "after considerable difficulty, assistance in interpreting the coded file was received", are ya talking about the csv or the 1st form that "could not be understood by inspecion"? 3. did the file that you got from your foia contain "two forms" of data? if so, it sounds like you knew there was more data there and you just couldnt access it? 4. did pilots for 911 truth get both forms of data when they filed their foia? could they "see" that there was extra data there that they coulnt access. i know you might not be able to answer for them but you might know something. thanks |
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OPERATION GLADIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio STRATEGY OF TENSION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird |
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#9 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,278
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Well, the short version.
1) The fdr file which is a raw dump from the FDR. 2) The fdr file. 3) The data in the fdr file is compressed with a Hoffman algorithm so that more data can be stored in the fdr. This requires some work at the binary level to solve unless the manufacturer provides the algorithm used to compress the data. Warren was able to reverse-engineer the algorithm. 4) Yes. Warren belongs to P4T. Well at least he did until his work began to verify mine ![]() |
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#10 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,078
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The raw data structure was specified in a file and individual items were defined. Here is the descriptor for DME, it is found in word 222. 10 bits are used to store this DME value. The raw file has 256 12 bit words for each second of data, that is 256 words per sub-frame in database. The raw files have to be decoded.
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http://www.warrenstutt.com/AAL77FDRDecoder/ Anyone could have access to the files. Anyone could see if they analyzed the data that some information had not been decoded by the NTSB. I think there were over 24 hours of flight time on the FDR - As you can see in the OP paper, Warren can decode any time he wants from many flights contained in Flight 77's FDR which confirm it was Flight 77 and confirms or shows what kind of errors there are in position and pressure altitude in regular use, in reality, due to the way aircraft and systems are. Pilots for truth also got "both" sets of data. The pilot for truth decode included one extra second more than the NTSB decode. Warren was able to decode the 4 seconds the NTSB did not. Remember the NTSB was not trying to solve why 77 crashed, they were producing products for the FBI. I assume or guess the FBI might be interested in when the terrorists took the jet physically, which is seen in the data if you know what you are looking for. The fact is the NTSB did not do an NTSB investigation, they investigate accidents, not crimes. For those who think Warren's work is not valid; the NTSB and the Pilots for Truth decode match Warren's work, and Warren's software is able to decode the incomplete Frame (or whatever was stopping the p4t and the NTSB; why did the p4t EXPERTS fail to decode the last seconds and get teh truth out?), the last 4 seconds. http://www.warrenstutt.com/AAL77FDRDecoder/ Warren's website tells all. |
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#11 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,335
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Can the process that Warren and yourself have undertaken be replicated?
Is the data pure and raw? Can the data be gained via FOIA? Has P4T had the capability and knowledge to be capable of doing this themselves? If they have..........why would it be that they havnt? If they havnt...........have you given them enough guidance for them to now do it themselves? Are CIT capable of even following this thread? Thanks John. Warren. Sure is more interesting than chasing T2 and T3. |
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The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract. Oliver Wendell Holmes |
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#12 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,278
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Yes, Warren has the C# source code he developed available for download on his site (Beachnut gave the links above). He also has a link to Microsofts C# compiler linked (free).
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#13 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,278
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Poor Warren, thrown under the P4T bus ....
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#14 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,740
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I see Tino/Turbofan isn't having any of it either over on ATS.
He even started a new topic, declaring that Legge et al was disgracing the truth movement. Funny enough, if you ask the rest of the TM, they believe the no-planers are the ones doing the disgracing ![]() |
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#15 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,335
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Thanks John.
I was aware that most had been answered previously. I just wanted to clarify with some none techy questions for the none techy lurkers. Me included. I also wanted it made clear that the frauds over at the tree fort have access to it too. It would appear that they did, ignored it and are now building their defences. LOL. |
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The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract. Oliver Wendell Holmes |
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#16 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,203
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Wow, so after more then 9 years some members of the Truth Movement have proven what the rest of us knew on 9/11. (And the rest of the Truth Movement is still denying it.
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#17 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
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#18 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2008
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#19 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
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__________________
OPERATION GLADIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio STRATEGY OF TENSION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird |
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#20 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,372
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__________________
OPERATION GLADIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio STRATEGY OF TENSION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird |
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#21 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,735
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__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#22 |
Master Poster
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#23 |
Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2010
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#24 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
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I would like to see a detailed plot of the aircraft heading, to help the north or south of the Citgo station dialog.
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#25 |
Worthless Aging Hippie
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,493
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I wonder if a sufficiently good plot of ground track could be derived from the VOR/DME data.
If I have read the NTSB report "Study of Autopilot, Navigation Equipment, and Fuel Consumption Activity Based on United Airlines Flight 93 and American Airlines Flight 77 Digital Flight Data Recorder Information" correctly, the right VOR receiver on AA77 was tuned to the station DCA at Reagan airport shortly after the hijacking and remained tuned thus, receiving signal for most of AA77's subsequent flight. The left VOR receiver was tuned to a nearby station in Virginia and then tuned to DCA at 9:32, about 5 minutes before impact. If valid data from these receivers was recorded by the FDR, what should emerge is a series of points at which the distance and bearing to the ground station is specified. Since the location of DCA is known, perhaps this would permit the plane's ground track to be reconstructed solely from the FDR decode. |
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#26 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
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#27 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
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I did that yesterday in the other thread... but I hadn't seen a heading plot in the latest publication which supported an extended straight flight for any length of time. A less high-brow presentation of the time slice units is required on this heading plot here. Seconds, not '5 Hz, please. Graphics should be used to educate, not intimidate. |
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#28 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,078
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.5 Hz is like seconds, cycles per second.
The descriptor for the data includes the sample rate.
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The plot you have is an excellent approximation for the real path. Case closed. Perfect plot, remember Flight 77 is traveling over 800 feet per second at impact. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9&d=1295200358 Your plot on the graphic is good, and covers 4 seconds therefore the true track in the FDR is 61.5 degrees. In reality the plane is never going straight, your plot is perfect and is very close to the ground track 77 flew. |
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#29 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
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Why is the speed, or better yet, the distance from impact not noted? Seconds or hertz mean zip unless there's a modifier that converts time to speed/distance. Quite important when relating the north or south problem, in that the plane -could- have come in north of the Citgo and turned, but not in the space available, nor survive the stress in such a turn, which would be worth noting for the NoCsayers to accept. |
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#30 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2010
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#31 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,078
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over 800 feet per second. Hz means a lot. With speed and the fact the last two recored samples of 61.5, at .5 hz, solves all you need. It is neat to see CIT has no clue what Hz means.
here is the true airspeed. KTAS 470 ~5 seconds to impact 472 ~4 seconds to impact 476 ~3 seconds to impact 484 ~2 seconds to impact 488 last FDR value before impact KTAS - True Course 470 - no sample 472 - 61.5 476 - no sample 484 - 61.5 488 - no sample It gets worse, or better, with other data in the FDR we could calculate true course, independent of the true course stored in the FDR. |
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#32 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
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I just downloaded and corrected this image of the two flight paths to put North where it is always shown on such information.
I doubt the plane could have accomplished the heading alterations in the time available as shown on the red line, nor is there anything in the FDR data that supports the required control inputs. Now, put the time hacks on the flight paths. |
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#33 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,078
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Last edited by beachnut; 16th January 2011 at 07:03 PM. Reason: north up, track up, etc... map orientation is as needed |
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#34 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
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"They threw the babies out of the incubators!" - Vladimir Z |
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#35 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
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The aircraft speed.
It is not possible to change the headings as shown in the time available. |
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#37 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
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#38 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
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In the last two seconds, at the speed the airplane was going, that heading change would require a loading on the airplane of 4.6 G.
It -CAN'T- do that! Physically impossible for an airplane like that to turn, much less survive that G loading. |
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#39 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#40 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
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