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Old 10th January 2011, 08:34 AM   #41
NoZed Avenger
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
And how many atheists are there who call for violence against theists? We've all seen various CTists who call for violence against their opponents, but I've never seen the like from an atheist. So, when trying to determine which of his beliefs lead to his violence, honestly, which one would be the more likely culprit: the one that never calls for violence, or the one that often calls for violence?

The guy was mentally ill.

He could have been set off by a misprint in the rules of Candyland.


The CT stuf is just as likely - since everything is wild speculation - to be a symptom as a cause.

The "most likely culprit"? So if this were the guy from years back who went into the steam tunnels underground to fight monsters, D & D *would* be at fault? Really?
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Old 10th January 2011, 08:48 AM   #42
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I am sure that 9-11 Truth was not the only motivating factor in his politics.

But it sure was part of it. And it appears to be the only one of his beliefs, other than his anti-Fed stuff, that has any sort of organization.

was he driven to kill....by 9-11 Truth? probably not.

but it sure didn't make him respect government and his representatives.
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Old 10th January 2011, 09:06 AM   #43
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I highly doubt his beliefs about 911 have anything to do with his behavior.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=79e_1294661631

Last edited by Quiproquo; 10th January 2011 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 10th January 2011, 11:30 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
In the interest of accuracy, I think it's worth noting that in this fellow's case, his interest in 9/11 trutherism was most likely a symptom of a more general mental illness. Or in short, from what I've read, I don't see his belief in 9/11 conspiracy fantasy as being the driving force behind the shooting. Rather, I see it as simply being one among the smorgasboard of paranoid fantasies he subscribed to. ..
I'm with you there. The first Truther I ever encountered (the person who got me interested in the subject) believes in:

9/11 inside job
no planes pentagon/Shanksville
Silverstein ordered CD of WTC 7
Chemtrails
NWO plots
Various 'false flag' operations including 9/11 and Pearl Harbour
Illuminati/Bilderberg causes our society's ills
Jews control everything

Just a few that I can recall. He used to get so agitated, so worked up about it that I had to insist that he stop communicating w/me several times. Because of his hostility to anyone who opposed his raft of paranoid beliefs, a couple of times I became seriously concerned that he might do something violent.....to me.

Needless to say I have limited my contact with this person.

Regarding the recent shooting, I also think that the current violent and hostile rhetoric emanating from the Right Wing media is very dangerous. It may very well have contributed to the deaths of these people.
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Old 10th January 2011, 11:34 AM   #45
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BTW, as sad as it was to lose someone so young an innocent, the girl that was killed by this lunatic was born on September 11, 2001 - she had aspirations to become a politician, since she was just elected as class president and wanted to meet a real politician in person.

Her neighbor had brought her to the Congress on the Corner event.
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Old 10th January 2011, 11:37 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
And they say Truthers never do violent acts.
Who says?

Timothy McVeigh certainly was of that ilk. David Karesh. Jim Jones.

Can we find another term for these nutjobs besides "Truther"? What they believe is anything but truthiness.
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Old 10th January 2011, 11:38 AM   #47
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I'd say his Trutherism was a symptom of his mental problems - not the cause.
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Old 10th January 2011, 11:43 AM   #48
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Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik has been speaking out forcefully on the dangers of extremism, saying on Saturday, "When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. And unfortunately, Arizona I think has become sort of the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry."

Well said, IMO.
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Old 10th January 2011, 11:47 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Platypus View Post
"fewer than 50% of truthers don't want to murder people"!?!? ...So then your admitting that more then 50% does want to murder people... WOW...
Hmm... woops. "more than".
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Old 10th January 2011, 11:48 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by tempesta29 View Post
Hmm... woops. "more than".
correcting spelling rather THAN commenting on the subject of the thread.

that's cute.
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Old 10th January 2011, 11:57 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
What official story? You mean the facts? As opposed to the paranoid rantings of an internet subculture?
Would you like to discuss the topic of government officials, intelligence officers, high ranking military, foreign leaders et al who believe 9/11 was an inside job?

Wait, who are you again?

Quote:
There is only the truth and the facts, which unfortunately seem to be weighing inexorably against the self-titled 'truther' cult.

Tell you what, read some of the comments directed at people who don't agree with truthers and you'll find out quickly what delusional paranoia looks like. In the messed-up minds of truthers, a person who accepts that a small group of hijackers took control of 4 planes is basically committing treason; or one who accepts the peer-reviewed math of Dr. Bazant et al. becomes 'complicit to mass murder'.

Don't even attempt to argue that truthers can resist demonizing those who do not subscribe to their cult beliefs. It's laughable.
Treason is an act; it doesn't imply a belief that said act must be punished with death. Use a dictionary.

Edited by kmortis:  Removed personal attack

Originally Posted by The Platypus View Post
I'll straight up say it.

911 cults are domestic terrorists, and they are treasonous traitors as well.
Well that's some well-timed irony.

Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
And how many atheists are there who call for violence against theists? We've all seen various CTists who call for violence against their opponents, but I've never seen the like from an atheist. So, when trying to determine which of his beliefs lead to his violence, honestly, which one would be the more likely culprit: the one that never calls for violence, or the one that often calls for violence?
The belief that 9/11 is an inside job does not call for violence in any way. It is an analysis of data. Some people may use those beliefs to justify some preexisting paranoid psychosis.

Last edited by kmortis; 10th January 2011 at 12:48 PM. Reason: Removed to comply with Rule 12 and Rule 0
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Old 10th January 2011, 11:59 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
correcting spelling rather THAN commenting on the subject of the thread.

that's cute.
And this is ironic: involving yourself in that which you think is trivial. Does clarifying my previous posts bother you, or do you simply have nothing better to do?

P.S. It was an issue with content, not spelling.
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Old 10th January 2011, 12:04 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Good Lt View Post
I'd say his Trutherism was a symptom of his mental problems - not the cause.
Exactly.

I think you have to be mentally ill to believe any of the no-plane crap. That includes the Pentagon and Shanksville.
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Old 10th January 2011, 12:05 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by tempesta29 View Post
Would you like to discuss the topic of government officials, intelligence officers, high ranking military, foreign leaders et al who believe 9/11 was an inside job?
Are you gonna whip out the old "Patriots Question 9/11" list of dead peope and the mentally ill?
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Old 10th January 2011, 12:06 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by tempesta29 View Post
And this is ironic: involving yourself in that which you think is trivial. Does clarifying my previous posts bother you, or do you simply have nothing better to do?
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Old 10th January 2011, 12:17 PM   #56
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While he may have dipped his toe in 9/11 conspiracies, And that hasn't even been shown yet, I do not believe you can call him a 911 truther, There wasn't even any 911 favorites in his youtube channel. And no mention of it in his videos or comments, What I find odd though is, Why does facebook or myspace or whatever rush to take down pages of notorious suspects? Does this hinder an ongoing investigation? or are they preserving evidence before someone logs into an account to delete it?
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Old 10th January 2011, 12:18 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by tempesta29 View Post

Treason is an act; it doesn't imply a belief that said act must be punished with death. Use a dictionary.
I quoted We Are Change LA. Direct your comment to them...

As for the precedent of execution for political beliefs, do we even need to debate that fact? When truthers threaten that failure to immediately act on their claims is Treason, we understand what the threat means.

Apparently you are denying the facts again.... quelle surprise.
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Old 10th January 2011, 12:26 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by A W Smith View Post
While he may have dipped his toe in 9/11 conspiracies, And that hasn't even been shown yet, I do not believe you can call him a 911 truther,
the prevailing logic among 9-11 Truthers is that anyone who has doubts about the "OCT", is in fact a Truther.

they cite such polls, and claim that they represent 25%...35%...even 50% of the population.

as to the other topic, yes....we have all heard meany Truthers call for the death penalty for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Feith, Pearle, Wolfowitz, etc...often without any trial or jury. I've even read Truthers saying that anyone in the USA who does not by now accept 9-11 Truth, should die (not saying that this view represents even a large minority of Truthers, only that they can go so far).

Last edited by Thunder; 10th January 2011 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 10th January 2011, 12:46 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by A W Smith View Post
While he may have dipped his toe in 9/11 conspiracies, And that hasn't even been shown yet, I do not believe you can call him a 911 truther, There wasn't even any 911 favorites in his youtube channel. And no mention of it in his videos or comments, What I find odd though is, Why does facebook or myspace or whatever rush to take down pages of notorious suspects? Does this hinder an ongoing investigation? or are they preserving evidence before someone logs into an account to delete it?
Interesting to note that 911Truth Tucson has a video showing signs:

G. Giffords Hides 9/11 Crimes
9/11 Was an Inside Job


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 10th January 2011, 12:55 PM   #60
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9-11 Truthers say: "Gifford hides 9-11 crimes".

that's nice.
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Old 10th January 2011, 01:04 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
D&D players don't talk about revolution, martial law, police states, and hanging the "true" 9-11 perps.

they also don't rant about if you are not for the Truth, you are a co-conspirator in mass murder.
Not true, i played an orc that i rolled a solid 3 for Int, and i made him a huge ct'er. Everything was a conspiracy, the only way he would fight is if someone convinced him the current encounter was something sent by " the man".

Fun times.
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Old 10th January 2011, 01:06 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Good Lt View Post
I'd say his Trutherism was a symptom of his mental problems - not the cause.

Agreed, and it say something about the Truth Movement that they attract so many loons like this.
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Old 10th January 2011, 01:09 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by tempesta29 View Post
Would you like to discuss the topic of government officials, intelligence officers, high ranking military, foreign leaders et al who believe 9/11 was an inside job?

Wait, who are you again?



Treason is an act; it doesn't imply a belief that said act must be punished with death. Use a dictionary.

Edited by kmortis:  Removed personal attack



Well that's some well-timed irony.



The belief that 9/11 is an inside job does not call for violence in any way. It is an analysis of data. Some people may use those beliefs to justify some preexisting paranoid psychosis.
The problem is though, the lack of facts and any solid evidence can be a trigger for these types of persons. Because they can't find any solid proof, because they can't find anyone in a place of power, they feel helpless and agitated and that violence is the only option.

And that is the problem with beliefs based on zero evidence, they are not going to evolve, they are not going to go anywhere ( its 2011 and what has 9/11 truth done in a **** decade?) , and this creates depression, and angst among its believers. This may have no effect when it is a 19 year old in good mental health besides annoyance, but when a person suffering legitimate mental disorders starts to buy in, it is dangerous.
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Old 10th January 2011, 01:10 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
It's not so much what beliefs/affiliations the shooter had that is meaningful as the reaction of those who share his beliefs/affiliations. For example I doubt that atheists are going to be distancing themselves from him by calling him a "patsy", "Manchurian Candidate" or part of some "false flag" event designed to discredit atheists. They'll simply call him mentally ill, whatever his beliefs may be. Generally speaking it seems that it is mostly Conspiracy Theorists who throw their more radical and violent fellow travelers under the bus with such abandon.

I do need to point that Atheists do not believe in gods just as they do not believe in kettles orbiting Jupiter. It make no sense to compare a lack of belief in something with a belief like "911 truth"
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Old 10th January 2011, 01:13 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Agreed, and it say something about the Truth Movement that they attract so many loons like this.
indeed.
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Old 10th January 2011, 01:15 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by tempesta29 View Post
I don't see how atheism could be any less an influence on one's perception of the value of human life. I wonder how many people who believe the official story of 9/11 kill every day.

really how so? what does believe in one particular brand of imaginary fairy have to do with the value of very real peoples lives. Man had morals and values long before God was invented and will have them long after he is forgotten.
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Old 10th January 2011, 01:26 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Arus808 View Post
BTW, as sad as it was to lose someone so young an innocent, the girl that was killed by this lunatic was born on September 11, 2001 - she had aspirations to become a politician, since she was just elected as class president and wanted to meet a real politician in person.

Her neighbor had brought her to the Congress on the Corner event.
I know. That hurts. And even though it's not even remotely close to being that neighbor's fault, I imagine that poor neighbor is going through hell right now. For no good reason other than a lunatic feeling the need to make his problems known to others through gunfire.

Rule 10 forbids the sort of language I want to use to describe that person. Forget his 9/11 beliefs, it's the fact that he felt the need to spray gunfire for whatever reason in the middle of a crowd that had nothing to do with his delusions. Son of a...
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Old 10th January 2011, 01:26 PM   #68
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Hmm, good points above. When was the last time an atheist called for the bombing of a church; and when was the last time a truther called for the execution of Bush and Cheney?

I think many still are...
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Old 10th January 2011, 01:32 PM   #69
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Here's a tidbit from a blog called 'the existentialist cowboy'

'unless the criminal, murderous bastards inside the traitorous and illegitimate administration of GWB have managed to repeal the laws of physics, the laws of the conservation of energy and matter still apply'

'Another big hole in the official conspiracy theory is this: there were absolutely no Arab names on the official coroner's report that was released in response to an FOIA request! That means that there is absolutely no evidence that there were any Arabs whatsoever on Flight 77.
Flight 77 could not have struck the the Pentagon.'

'Bush lied to you to cover up his complicity in an act of mass murder and high treason, a crime that is punishable by execution. In the vernacular, the bastards --in our government --who did this should be hanged or deep fried or both!

At this point, words fail me. I find it impossible to express how revulsed I am by a government that would deliberately plan the mass murder of innocent civilians in order to implement a policy that is of itself evil, incompetent, repugnant!'

'We no longer have a government. We have, rather, an infestation.
Now --for those who wish to 'refute' me. Let me tell you how! Show me some 100 tons of airliner wreckage recovered from the Pentagon!'

'April Gallup says that there was absolutely no airliner wreckage.'

'Likewise, anyone inside our 'government' involved in any way is complicit in the planning and the execution of 911. Anyone filling those roles is guilty! Any government official so charged and found guilty should be executed for the crimes of mass murder and high treason!'

etc, etc.. what's scary is that this litany of nonsense is standard 9/11 Truther fare. It isn't exceptional or unique.

Can you imagine what this kind of rhetoric can have on a confused person like Jared Loughner? I certainly can. And it's all over the internet in plain view.

http://existentialistcowboy.blogspot...d-treason.html
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Last edited by alienentity; 10th January 2011 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 10th January 2011, 01:40 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
Interesting to note that 911Truth Tucson has a video showing signs:

G. Giffords Hides 9/11 Crimes
9/11 Was an Inside Job


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
April 13 2008? Seriously? Even back then looked like the protest signs outnumbered the protesters two to one, all six of them. Just because Tucson 911 truth had issues with her doesn't mean that loughner was a truther. Are they a subset of crazy people? Yes. But I don't see any connection to him. I diner place mat could have set off the voices in his head for all we know.
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Old 10th January 2011, 01:45 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by A W Smith View Post
April 13 2008? Seriously? Even back then looked like the protest signs outnumbered the protesters two to one, all six of them. Just because Tucson 911 truth had issues with her doesn't mean that loughner was a truther. Are they a subset of crazy people? Yes. But I don't see any connection to him. I diner place mat could have set off the voices in his head for all we know.
Nobody knows at this point. It merely corroborates the notion that a person who was influenced by 9/11 Truth propaganda, in this case local Tucson 9/11 propaganda, could be directed further towards Ms. Giffords.

It is merely a fact that 911Truth Tucson accused Ms. Giffords publicly of 'hiding 9/11 Crimes'. Context.
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Heiwa - 'Anyone suggesting that part C structure can one-way crush down part A structure is complicit to mass murder!'
000063 - 'Problem with the Truthers' theories is that anyone with enough power to pull it off doesn't need to in the first place.'
mrkinnies 'I'm not a no-planer' 'I don't believe Flight 77 hit the Pentagon'
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Old 10th January 2011, 01:51 PM   #72
alienentity
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According to this April 2009 report by the Dept of Homeland Security

'DHS/I&A assesses that a number of economic and political factors are
driving a resurgence in rightwing extremist recruitment and radicalization activity.
Despite similarities to the climate of the 1990s, the threat posed by lone wolves and small terrorist cells is more pronounced than in past years.'

'A recent example of the potential violence associated with a rise in rightwing
extremism may be found in the shooting deaths of three police officers in
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on 4 April 2009. The alleged gunman’s reaction
reportedly was influenced by his racist ideology and belief in antigovernment
conspiracy theories related to gun confiscations, citizen detention camps, and a
Jewish-controlled “one world government
'

Perhaps the DHS should include extremist Left-Wing recruitment (yes, this includes some 9/11 Truthers) in their threat assessments. But regardless, it appears the messages are being received by a growing number of despondent, even psychotic people.

It was linked to by a January 09 article by Paul Krugman titled 'Climate of Hate'
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Heiwa - 'Anyone suggesting that part C structure can one-way crush down part A structure is complicit to mass murder!'
000063 - 'Problem with the Truthers' theories is that anyone with enough power to pull it off doesn't need to in the first place.'
mrkinnies 'I'm not a no-planer' 'I don't believe Flight 77 hit the Pentagon'
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Old 10th January 2011, 02:01 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
When was the last time an atheist called for the bombing of a church; and when was the last time a truther called for the execution of Bush and Cheney?
atheists in the USA do no such thing.

truthers call for this on a daily basis.
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Old 10th January 2011, 03:10 PM   #74
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Lets see

mentally ill, pot smoking loser, no job, living home with mommy & daddy, believer in
bizarre theories

Yep

Fits profile of 90% of truthers ........
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Old 10th January 2011, 03:55 PM   #75
triforcharity
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Originally Posted by A W Smith View Post
While he may have dipped his toe in 9/11 conspiracies, And that hasn't even been shown yet, I do not believe you can call him a 911 truther, There wasn't even any 911 favorites in his youtube channel. And no mention of it in his videos or comments, What I find odd though is, Why does facebook or myspace or whatever rush to take down pages of notorious suspects? Does this hinder an ongoing investigation? or are they preserving evidence before someone logs into an account to delete it?
I think they take it offline and maybe lock it to preserve evidence. That would make sense.
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Old 10th January 2011, 05:33 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by tempesta29 View Post
I don't see how atheism could be any less an influence on one's perception of the value of human life. I wonder how many people who believe the official story of 9/11 kill every day.
Well its winter time here and I am not a hunter, nor do I care to fish through a hole in the ice. I let others kill pigs , chickens and cattle for me.

But in the summer,,,,,,,,,, yep, walleye for dinner and eating outside with one hand so the other one can swat mosquitoes.
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Old 10th January 2011, 05:42 PM   #77
sheeplesnshills
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Quote:
The belief that 9/11 is an inside job does not call for violence in any way. It is an analysis of data. Some people may use those beliefs to justify some preexisting paranoid psychosis.
[/quote]

Trutherism is in of itself a symptom of paranoia and or deep ignorance and stupidity. I have yet to encounter one that did not meet at least one of these requirements. Most suffer from all three.
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Old 10th January 2011, 07:17 PM   #78
BCR
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Originally Posted by sheeplesnshills View Post
Trutherism is in of itself a symptom of paranoia and or deep ignorance and stupidity. I have yet to encounter one that did not meet at least one of these requirements. Most suffer from all three.
Darn, and here I just thought I was searching for 'truth'. Turns out I'm paranoid and ignorant. Just when I was getting my self esteem back in line too
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Old 10th January 2011, 07:26 PM   #79
AJM8125
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Originally Posted by BCR View Post
Darn, and here I just thought I was searching for 'truth'. Turns out I'm paranoid and ignorant. Just when I was getting my self esteem back in line too
You're still the better looking Farmer.

I'm here to help.
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Old 10th January 2011, 07:27 PM   #80
BCR
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
You're still the better looking Farmer.

I'm here to help.
Thanks, I needed that
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