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#1 |
Recipient of a Custom Title
Join Date: Jan 2011
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Cold Fusion Claims
Apparently, Andrea A. Rossi (I think his web site is at journal-of-nuclear-physics.com) is now claiming to have a device that takes 400W in and produces 15KW out. It's roughly the size of a large suitcase and claimed to be able to run for six months, powered on about 1 gram of nickel.
peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Andrea_A._Rossi_Cold_Fusion_Generator I'm guessing it's an investment scam, as these things usually are. But he's claimed an unusually tight timetable, which usually makes it hard to make much money on this kind of thing. Does anyone have any links to skeptical articles on this particular claim or Andrea Rossi generally? |
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#2 |
Philosopher
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#3 |
Recipient of a Custom Title
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I just assumed his claim was that the nickel was somehow helping him to fuse the hydrogen. But he does seem to be talking about consuming the nickel, so who knows.
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#4 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
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No skeptical articles, but your link includes a link to the international patent application they filed on this device. There's a few things in this application that stand out to me as signs they know they don't have a real device, and are trying to sneak it through the various patent offices. First off, the patent is classified as C01B 3/00 under the International Patent Classification (IPC) system. That class covers:
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Looking at claim 1, my suspicions are confirmed:
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Notice there is no mention of where the "energy" comes from, and of course it's possible for a chemical reaction to be able to produce energy. In fact, the word "fusion" isn't used anywhere in the claims. There's an allusion to fusion in claim 15:
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His description does discuss his theory that the energy is generated by fusion (and he also mentions fission, at one point, that's pretty weird!), but one quirk of patent law is that an inventor cannot be denied a patent just because their theory of how it works is incorrect, so long as the device actually works. He even covers his butt a bit on this front:
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So, based on a reading of their patent application, I suspect they know it's bogus, and as such, doesn't actually work. If they thought it did, why would they obscure their true invention, and in fact draw attention to the fact that they haven't even tried to prove it's really fusion? I'll also note that, despite all that, if you read the International Preliminary Report on Patentability, the international examiner still isn't buying it. So it seems we're making progress on these sorts of crap patent applications. |
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#5 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
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http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directo...sion_Generator
Um, considering that there 'independant' verification is skimpy, I sort of wonder. |
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#6 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Quote:
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#7 |
Illuminator
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#8 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
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There has always been a requirement for a device to have "utility", that is, some useful function. A non-functional device would have no utility. Unfortunately, the realities of examination and the jurisprudence has watered this down significantly, but the requirement is still there in the law, and can still be applied if the examiner is willing to make the effort. And also, being novel still isn't enough, it must also be non-obvious. |
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#9 |
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#10 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 46,459
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Doesn't the US Patent Office have rules against Perpetual Motion Machines?
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#11 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
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#12 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
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Cases like this one are also complicated by the fact that, as described, it's not actually perpetual motion. They're not claiming to get energy from nowhere; they're claiming to get it from fusion of nickle and hydrogen nuclei. That such fusions almost certainly don't occur under the conditions they assert it does is much harder to demonstrate with the legally required certainty, as compared to your traditional perpetual motion machines. |
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#13 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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I believe that if the invention as set out in the patent probably does actually work in the sense that it does what it claims to do. All the patent application really claims is that you put energy in, there's a reaction, and you get more energy out. This is entire possible if, for example, the nickel is oxidizing.
I think what he's done is made outrageous claims in public and then made very ordinary claims in a patent application. The usual reason to do this is to get the patent granted and then raise money. Then the person always needs more money and/or more time to get his invention perfected. The thing is, Rossi has claimed such a tight timeline here that I don't see how he could pull off such a thing. Maybe all he wants is attention? |
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#14 |
Surfing on the relativistic brain wave
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 494
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Levi and Carnera also do not exist at the stated location.
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#15 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
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I'll bet fusion doesn't exist in his suitcase sized device either.
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#16 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
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Well, he's probably been paying attention to things in this field (various free energy scams), and has noticed that, no matter what you promise, and no matter how obviously you fail to live up to those promises, there will always be someone willing to invest in your particular nonsense scheme. Blacklight Power and Steorn have been making money for years, decades no less in BL's case, on the basis of BS promises just like this one. Why would he expect it to be any different for him? |
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#17 |
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#18 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#19 |
Self Assessed Dunning-Kruger Expert
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,178
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Thanks for the work Horatius;
From your quote:
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If they really had a six month experiment running with that much energy surplus, it ought to be fairly simple to demonstrate transmutation (via fusion with hydrogen) of nickel nuclei by starting with a very pure nickel sample and then running the end sample through a mass spectrometer alongside some controls. |
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#20 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,690
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Yes, the P&F type cold fusion has largely gone out of style. I'd like to get a real chemist to look into some of these things though, as I've noticed that this guy isn't the only one using a nickel based device. The Blacklight Power guys have been pushing something involving "Raney Nickel" as the latest version of their claims. I have a suspicion that what these guys have really discovered is some novel chemistry, that is energetic enough to create these "anomalous" heat effects, but which isn't actually sustainable enough to be a useful energy source. So, they've decided to use it as the center piece of their scam, until someone else finally figures it out. It would take a real chemist doing real research to prove this, however. |
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#21 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2006
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I found the folllowing article disturbing when it was included in technology review. It should be more critical as there seems to be no working theory for cold fusion and there is little chance for some type of breakthrough.
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/13559/ glenn |
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#22 |
Guest
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This url was posted at Delusional Idiots forum:
http://pesn.com/2011/01/17/9501746_F...ng_for_market/
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But . . . also in this article it says
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I'd like to know more about this "radiation" output, and I'd like to see the production of Copper by "transmutation" verified by outside sources. Given the lack of neutral outside sources, I don't think I'll be sending them any of MY money. |
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#23 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 29,805
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The Nickel/Copper transmutation should be pretty easily detected by examination of metal.
If they're saying Nickel fuses with a proton to form Copper, which seems extremely unlikely especially at the energies involved, there should either be detectable traces of Copper formed, detectable decay products (positrons mostly) or detectable changes in the isotopic composition of the Nickel. |
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#24 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
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Quote:
Well, that's just stupid.
The more I read, the more it sounds like classic pseudoscience. "It can't be this one thing I suggest as an alternative, therefore, FUSION!"
Quote:
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Well, I'm not sure how many wrong things there are in just these few lines.
This sort of nonsense is why I make the effort to educate people about what patents and patent applications really mean. Just about everything they've said here is ******** of some sort or other. |
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#25 |
Guest
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I'm still trying to understand what, if anything, might be actually happening in this "experiment."
Could the high pressure H2 be reacting with residual oxygen bound to the nickel particles? Does anyone here know the chemistry of NiH batteries in general? I suspect the device is in essence a crummy battery that's simultaneously charging and self-discharging for a net increase in heat. It seems like the most likely source of heat in addition to the "resistor" (and 400w) they list as part of the device. But without seeing any data it's just guesswork. The lack of clear data coupled with claims of fusion/transmutation seriously undermines my confidence in their methodology. |
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#26 |
Gatekeeper of The Left
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 37,538
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They claim that a commercial power plant using this technology will be on line in three months.
If so, we will know that they have something real at that time. You could not fake that in any way I can imagine. |
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#27 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Well, there's outright subterfuge---power laundering, so to speak. You rent two buildings and run a cable between them. One building acts as the "power plant", and you invite everyone to watch its meter spin backwards, to watch the utility company hand over a big check, etc. The other building (say, rented by a shell corporation) buys power from the power company and pays for it normally---maybe it pretends to be an electroplating company or something with large power needs. But all that the power is actually doing is going in one meter and out the other.
I can imagine two ways of profiting from this. First, you've got a convincing demo with which to fleece another round of investors. Second---are there places where utilities (or governments) pay a premium for renewable energy? Maybe your "electroplating business" could be buying fossil power at $0.20/kWh, laundering it into the "fusion" which can sell "clean power" for $0.30/kWh. I would hope that there are inspection/verification ways of preventing this, but who knows. (ETA: or, of course, you have diesel generator hidden in the basement and you sneak the fuel in at night.) |
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#28 |
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2010
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Let's not forget the possibility that the "3 months" claim is simply marketing, to be followed by engineering "just wait a bit longer" as the funds trickle in.
Then they blame the lack of funding for their failure to produce the results they claim possible. |
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#29 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,690
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This is what I'm betting on. Faking a power plant has the potential to be caught out if someone is paying attention - buildings really do have to be rented, and power bought and sold, and at every step of that process, the possibility exists that someone in a position of authority might take a real interest in you, and discover what you're really up to. Meanwhile, the "Any day now!" investor scam has worked well for other companies, to the tune of tens of millions of dollars over the last 20 years or so in at least one case, and you're largely immune to lawsuits, as the investors are told up front that this is a speculative investment, and "Oh, so sorry, unforeseen difficulties, no royalties for you this year!" is pretty much a get out of jail free card. So long as they can't prove you know you're full of ****, you can claim you've been working diligently to bring this to market, but have unfortunately failed in you efforts. There's really no upside to these guys actually trying to build anything significant. If there was, one of them would have done so by now, I think. |
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#30 |
Philosopher
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#31 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2006
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I completely agree. They'll never build a power plant, they'll just solicit investment for the powerplant that they promise they'll build as soon as they have enough investment.
The only fraudster I've heard of who actually faked the machine was Keely, who had some elaborate "aether powered" demonstrator. After his death his laboratory was ripped up and they found all the hidden pneumatic piping that had actually powered it. (Steorn just went ahead and left a visible battery plugged into their "demonstrator"; you were supposed to accept their word for the fact that the battery wasn't discharging.) |
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#32 |
Recipient of a Custom Title
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 734
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There was another great elaborate free energy fraud.
A guy had a device that was sealed in a box. He had observers measure the current and voltage coming from a wall socket and going into the box and the current and voltage going out into a load that consisted of many light bulbs. The box was less than a cubic foot in size. The output power was around 500W, the input around 200W. He was able to take his setup to any location and reproduce it with much more power seeming to come out of the box than going in with the box running for days. The box was sealed with the exception of the cables. The box got warm but otherwise had no obvious changes. His gimmick was ingenious. The device drew large amounts of input power in short spikes too quick for the current meter to read and too quick for a circuit breaker to react. Essentially, the inertia of the meter movement made it appear that the current never exceed a particular amount while the average current actually vastly exceeded that amount. |
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#33 |
Muse
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#34 |
Illuminator
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#35 |
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#36 |
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#37 |
Illuminator
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#38 |
Guest
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No, it's exothermic. The binding energy of 62Ni is 545259.118 MeV. The binding energy of 63Cu is 551381.562. http://ie.lbl.gov/toimass.html
You're thinking of the binding energy per nucleon, which is indeed slightly higher for 62Ni than 63Cu. But the thing you want to calculate is the binding energy per nucleon of "62Ni + p" vs. the b.e.p.n. of "63Cu". |
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#39 |
Illuminator
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#40 |
Guest
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Binding energy per nucleon of the large nuclei is not the conserved quantity in this problem. Total binding energy (all nucleons) is conserved. The binding energy per nucleon of the unbound state (p+62N) is 545259.118/63 = 8654.906 MeV, while the binding energy per nucleon of the bound state (63Cu) is 551381.562/63 = 8752.088 MeV. (Or multiply both sides by 63 to get the answer I gave before.)
Therefore this fusion is energetically favorable, radiating about 100 keV per nucleon or 6.2 MeV total. |
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