Merged: Cold Fusion Claims

[JoelKatz]

Apparently, Andrea A. Rossi (I think his web site is at journal-of-nuclear-physics.com) is now claiming to have a device that takes 400W in and produces 15KW out. It's roughly the size of a large suitcase and claimed to be able to run for six months, powered on about 1 gram of nickel.

peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Andrea_A._Rossi_Cold_Fusion_Generator

I'm guessing it's an investment scam, as these things usually are. But he's claimed an unusually tight timetable, which usually makes it hard to make much money on this kind of thing.

Does anyone have any links to skeptical articles on this particular claim or Andrea Rossi generally?

[shadron]

Originally Posted by JoelKatz

Apparently, Andrea A. Rossi (I think his web site is at journal-of-nuclear-physics.com) is now claiming to have a device that takes 400W in and produces 15KW out. It's roughly the size of a large suitcase and claimed to be able to run for six months, powered on about 1 gram of nickel.

peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Andrea_A._Rossi_Cold_Fusion_Generator

I'm guessing it's an investment scam, as these things usually are. But he's claimed an unusually tight timetable, which usually makes it hard to make much money on this kind of thing.

Does anyone have any links to skeptical articles on this particular claim or Andrea Rossi generally?

Fusing nickel seems to be an excessively hard way to go...
...unless it is in a NiCad battery?

[JoelKatz]

I just assumed his claim was that the nickel was somehow helping him to fuse the hydrogen. But he does seem to be talking about consuming the nickel, so who knows.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by JoelKatz

Does anyone have any links to skeptical articles on this particular claim or Andrea Rossi generally?

No skeptical articles, but your link includes a link to the international patent application they filed on this device.

There's a few things in this application that stand out to me as signs they know they don't have a real device, and are trying to sneak it through the various patent offices.


First off, the patent is classified as C01B 3/00 under the International Patent Classification (IPC) system. That class covers:

Quote:

C01 INORGANIC CHEMISTRY

C01B NON-METALLIC ELEMENTS; COMPOUNDS THEREOF

3/00 Hydrogen; Gaseous mixtures containing hydrogen; Separation of hydrogen from mixtures containing it (separation of gases by physical means B01D); Purification of hydrogen (production of water-gas or synthesis gas from solid carbonaceous material C10J; purifying or modifying the chemical compositions of combustible gases containing carbon monoxide C10K) [3]

The IPC is usually based on the broadest independent claims (the part of a patent that legally defines their patent protection, or the desired protection in the case of a application for patent). That suggests to me that they've written their claims in such as way as to obscure the "cold fusion" aspects of their work. Note that, as classified, it would be examined by a chemist, who might not know much about fusion, and the cold fusion claims in particular.

Looking at claim 1, my suspicions are confirmed:

Quote:

1. A method for carrying out an isothermal reaction of nickel and hydrogen, characterized in -that said method comprises injecting hydrogen into a metal tube filled by a nickel powder, even of nanometric dimensions, or nickel granules or bars, in a high temperature and pressurized hydrogen gas saturated environment, thereby generating energy.

Notice there is no mention of where the "energy" comes from, and of course it's possible for a chemical reaction to be able to produce energy. In fact, the word "fusion" isn't used anywhere in the claims. There's an allusion to fusion in claim 15:

Quote:

15. An apparatus according to claim 5, characterized in that said exothermal reaction is a multiple exothermal reaction, adapted to provide different atoms depending on an amount of protons interacting with nickel nuclei.

But "adapted to provide different atoms" is so vague that it could mean almost anything if the examiner notices it, and challenges them on this point.

His description does discuss his theory that the energy is generated by fusion (and he also mentions fission, at one point, that's pretty weird!), but one quirk of patent law is that an inventor cannot be denied a patent just because their theory of how it works is incorrect, so long as the device actually works. He even covers his butt a bit on this front:

Quote:

The exothermal reaction thereon Applicant's invention is based differs from those adopted by prior searchers since the inventor has not tried to demonstrate an emission of elementary particles supporting a validity of a theory, but he has exclusively tried to provide an amount of energy larger than the consumed energy amount, to just achieve a practical method and apparatus for generating an energy amount larger than the consumed energy, and this by exploiting nuclear energy generating processes starting from electrochemical energy. Thus, the inventive apparatus has been specifically designed for producing the above mentioned energy in a reliable, easily controllable, safe, repeatable manner, for any desired applications.

...essentially saying, "I haven't even tried to prove it's fusion, I just want it to work!"

So, based on a reading of their patent application, I suspect they know it's bogus, and as such, doesn't actually work. If they thought it did, why would they obscure their true invention, and in fact draw attention to the fact that they haven't even tried to prove it's really fusion?



I'll also note that, despite all that, if you read the International Preliminary Report on Patentability, the international examiner still isn't buying it. So it seems we're making progress on these sorts of crap patent applications.

[Dancing David]

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directo...sion_Generator

Um, considering that there 'independant' verification is skimpy, I sort of wonder.

[Andy_Ross]

Quote:

so long as the device actually works

Since when did an 'invention' have to work to be patented? It only has to be novel.

[Emet]

Quote:

Rossi and Focardi Energy Amplifier: Reality or Scam?
Posted on January 14, 2011 by Steven B. Krivit

Journal of Nuclear Physics? Really?

- A web site registered in California by a secret entity.
- A “journal” that is not a journal but a blog.
- A blog name that resembles the (real) former Soviet Journal of Nuclear Physics.
- A virtual “editor” comprised of a “team of scientists.”
- A “team of scientists” who’s only active participant appears to be Andrea Rossi.
- A “10 kW module reactor” that is anybody’s guess.

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/...ality-or-scam/

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Since when did an 'invention' have to work to be patented? It only has to be novel.

There has always been a requirement for a device to have "utility", that is, some useful function. A non-functional device would have no utility. Unfortunately, the realities of examination and the jurisprudence has watered this down significantly, but the requirement is still there in the law, and can still be applied if the examiner is willing to make the effort.

And also, being novel still isn't enough, it must also be non-obvious.

[ben m]

Originally Posted by Emet

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/...ality-or-scam/

The "board of advisors":

Quote:

Prof. Sergio Focardi (INFN – University of Bologna – Italy)
Prof. Michael Melich (DOD – USA)
Prof. Alberto Carnera (INFM – University of Padova – Italy)
Prof. Giuseppe Levi (INFN – University of Bologna – Italy)
Prof. Pierluca Rossi (University of Bologna – Italy)
Prof. Luciana Malferrari (University of Bologna – Italy)
Prof. George Kelly (University of New Hampshire – USA)
Prof. Stremmenos Christos (Athen University – Greece)

There is nobody named George Kelly at UNH.

[Andy_Ross]

Doesn't the US Patent Office have rules against Perpetual Motion Machines?

[geni]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Doesn't the US Patent Office have rules against Perpetual Motion Machines?

In theory yes. In practice they have to notice that somthing is actualy claiming to be a Perpetual Motion Machine.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by geni

In theory yes. In practice they have to notice that somthing is actualy claiming to be a Perpetual Motion Machine.

Cases like this one are also complicated by the fact that, as described, it's not actually perpetual motion. They're not claiming to get energy from nowhere; they're claiming to get it from fusion of nickle and hydrogen nuclei. That such fusions almost certainly don't occur under the conditions they assert it does is much harder to demonstrate with the legally required certainty, as compared to your traditional perpetual motion machines.

[JoelKatz]

Originally Posted by geni

In theory yes. In practice they have to notice that somthing is actualy claiming to be a Perpetual Motion Machine.

I believe that if the invention as set out in the patent probably does actually work in the sense that it does what it claims to do. All the patent application really claims is that you put energy in, there's a reaction, and you get more energy out. This is entire possible if, for example, the nickel is oxidizing.

I think what he's done is made outrageous claims in public and then made very ordinary claims in a patent application. The usual reason to do this is to get the patent granted and then raise money. Then the person always needs more money and/or more time to get his invention perfected.

The thing is, Rossi has claimed such a tight timeline here that I don't see how he could pull off such a thing. Maybe all he wants is attention?

[ingoa]

Levi and Carnera also do not exist at the stated location.

[Skwinty]

I'll bet fusion doesn't exist in his suitcase sized device either.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by JoelKatz

The thing is, Rossi has claimed such a tight timeline here that I don't see how he could pull off such a thing. Maybe all he wants is attention?

Well, he's probably been paying attention to things in this field (various free energy scams), and has noticed that, no matter what you promise, and no matter how obviously you fail to live up to those promises, there will always be someone willing to invest in your particular nonsense scheme.

Blacklight Power and Steorn have been making money for years, decades no less in BL's case, on the basis of BS promises just like this one. Why would he expect it to be any different for him?

[ben m]

Originally Posted by ingoa

Levi and Carnera also do not exist at the stated location.

Levi's name shows up at the University of Bologna, but does not appear to be affiliated with the INFN. Carnera exists as reported.

[hgc]

Originally Posted by JoelKatz

I'm guessing it's an investment scam, as these things usually are. But he's claimed an unusually tight timetable, which usually makes it hard to make much money on this kind of thing.

That tight timeline is for today's investors. Tomorrow's investors will see a new, tight timeline.

[Mr.D]

Thanks for the work Horatius;

From your quote:

Quote:

1. A method for carrying out an isothermal reaction of nickel and hydrogen, characterized in -that said method comprises injecting hydrogen into a metal tube filled by a nickel powder, even of nanometric dimensions, or nickel granules or bars, in a high temperature and pressurized hydrogen gas saturated environment, thereby generating energy.

Note that as described, this is not Pons & Fleishmann/Jones brand of "Cold Fusion" via electrolysis in heavy water.

If they really had a six month experiment running with that much energy surplus, it ought to be fairly simple to demonstrate transmutation (via fusion with hydrogen) of nickel nuclei by starting with a very pure nickel sample and then running the end sample through a mass spectrometer alongside some controls.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

Note that as described, this is not Pons & Fleishmann/Jones brand of "Cold Fusion" via electrolysis in heavy water.

If they really had a six month experiment running with that much energy surplus, it ought to be fairly simple to demonstrate transmutation (via fusion with hydrogen) of nickel nuclei by starting with a very pure nickel sample and then running the end sample through a mass spectrometer alongside some controls.

Yes, the P&F type cold fusion has largely gone out of style. I'd like to get a real chemist to look into some of these things though, as I've noticed that this guy isn't the only one using a nickel based device. The Blacklight Power guys have been pushing something involving "Raney Nickel" as the latest version of their claims.

I have a suspicion that what these guys have really discovered is some novel chemistry, that is energetic enough to create these "anomalous" heat effects, but which isn't actually sustainable enough to be a useful energy source. So, they've decided to use it as the center piece of their scam, until someone else finally figures it out. It would take a real chemist doing real research to prove this, however.

[Hindmost]

I found the folllowing article disturbing when it was included in technology review. It should be more critical as there seems to be no working theory for cold fusion and there is little chance for some type of breakthrough.

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/13559/


glenn

[Jrrarglblarg]

This url was posted at Delusional Idiots forum:

http://pesn.com/2011/01/17/9501746_F...ng_for_market/

Quote:

Simply put, the effect involves pressurized dihydrogen gas (2 bars is the lowest mentioned in the patent and 80 bars is what was used in the demonstration) is placed in metal tube with nano powdered nickel and a heating element (resistor). Somehow the dihydrogen gas is split into atomic hydrogen. When heat is applied the atomic hydrogen reacts with the powdered nickel to produce energy up to 400 times the input energy. Undisclosed catalysts are used to increase the efficiency of the cell.

At first glance this sounds like a weird variation of Nickel Hydrogen battery with energy in put as hydrogen and output as heat. Most batteries will heat in overcharge conditions -- NiCD batteries are monitored for heating and chargers shut off automatically as soon as slight temp rise is detected, as that provides end-of-charge cycle data. In other words, the heat output might be a result of a chemical reaction, not some kind of fusion.

But . . . also in this article it says

Quote:

* Regular Ni is used even though other isotopes may provide better efficiency. They think all the isotopes work to produce the effect.
* For some unknown reason, not all of the Ni in the cell reacts with the hydrogen to produce energy. The percentage of the Ni that reacts is very low.
* Even though the percentage of the Ni that reacts with hydrogen is very low one kilogram of nickel powder should deliver 10 kW of energy for 10,000 hours. The consumption rate of hydrogen and nickel are 0.1 g of Ni and 0.01 g of H to produce 10 kWh/h. Note that for every picogram of nickel that is actually fused or reacts to the hydrogen, much more must be added. Not all the nickel added will react. So if you add 0.1g of Ni to produce 10kWh/h only a small fraction of that Ni will actually be utilized. When the device shuts off due to running out of fuel most of the .1g could be remaining.
* Tungsten is in no way used. However, "other elements" are used.
* Radiation is produced. However in the device demonstrated which is made for commercial use no radiation escapes due to lead shielding. The fact that radiation is produced is proof of a nuclear reaction.
* In the demonstration device for every unit of input there was approximately 37 units of output.
* A small percentage of the nickel is transmuted into copper. The amount of copper found in the cell is far greater than the impurities in the nickel powder. None of this copper is "unstable."
* There is no radioactivity in the cell after it is turned off. No nuclear "waste."
* All of the information needed to successfully replicate a self sustaining system is in the patent application (which is being held proprietary presently).
* The power density for thermal energy only is 5 liters per kilowatt.
* The hydrogen has to be all hydrogen with no deuterium or heavy hydrogen. Apparently, any heavy hydrogen stops the reaction.
* This current system never goes below 6 times more energy out than in. During the test it produced 20 times more energy out than in. In the lab they have done similar tests and obtained 400 times more out than in, but it produced explosions.

Bolding added

I'd like to know more about this "radiation" output, and I'd like to see the production of Copper by "transmutation" verified by outside sources.

Given the lack of neutral outside sources, I don't think I'll be sending them any of MY money.

[catsmate]

The Nickel/Copper transmutation should be pretty easily detected by examination of metal.
If they're saying Nickel fuses with a proton to form Copper, which seems extremely unlikely especially at the energies involved, there should either be detectable traces of Copper formed, detectable decay products (positrons mostly) or detectable changes in the isotopic composition of the Nickel.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by ApolloGnomon

This url was posted at Delusional Idiots forum:

http://pesn.com/2011/01/17/9501746_F...ng_for_market/

Quote:

Also, to understand the source of the process of energy production, they sought to ensure that hydrogen was not being burned, by measuring the mass at the beginning and end of the experiment.

Well, that's just stupid.

1. If it's a closed system, even if they are buring hydrogen, the mass will still be the same
2. "Burning hydrogen" isn't the only chemistry that might be happening
3. "Burning hydrogen" isn't even the most likely chemistry that might be happening

The more I read, the more it sounds like classic pseudoscience. "It can't be this one thing I suggest as an alternative, therefore, FUSION!"

Quote:

All of the information needed to successfully replicate a self sustaining system is in the patent application (which is being held proprietary presently).

Quote:

They received PCT patent number WO/2009/125444 on October 15, 2009, with an additional patent having been filed. Once the second patent is awarded, then the information about how they achieve their results will become public knowledge. Meanwhile, they are keeping that information proprietary.

Well, I'm not sure how many wrong things there are in just these few lines.

1. A "WO" document isn't a patent, it's an application for a patent. They haven't been "awarded" anything yet.
2. Any WO document will be made public (that is, not proprietary) long before any actual patent might issue based on the application
3. There's no point in keeping it proprietary now, if the application has been filed. That protects their interests everywhere they will care to get patents
4. So, they admit that the currently published application doesn't contain enough information to produce a working device? No Patent For You, then!

This sort of nonsense is why I make the effort to educate people about what patents and patent applications really mean. Just about everything they've said here is ******** of some sort or other.

[Jrrarglblarg]

I'm still trying to understand what, if anything, might be actually happening in this "experiment."

Could the high pressure H₂ be reacting with residual oxygen bound to the nickel particles? Does anyone here know the chemistry of NiH batteries in general?

I suspect the device is in essence a crummy battery that's simultaneously charging and self-discharging for a net increase in heat. It seems like the most likely source of heat in addition to the "resistor" (and 400w) they list as part of the device.

But without seeing any data it's just guesswork. The lack of clear data coupled with claims of fusion/transmutation seriously undermines my confidence in their methodology.

[BenBurch]

They claim that a commercial power plant using this technology will be on line in three months.

If so, we will know that they have something real at that time. You could not fake that in any way I can imagine.

[ben m]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

They claim that a commercial power plant using this technology will be on line in three months.

If so, we will know that they have something real at that time. You could not fake that in any way I can imagine.

Well, there's outright subterfuge---power laundering, so to speak. You rent two buildings and run a cable between them. One building acts as the "power plant", and you invite everyone to watch its meter spin backwards, to watch the utility company hand over a big check, etc. The other building (say, rented by a shell corporation) buys power from the power company and pays for it normally---maybe it pretends to be an electroplating company or something with large power needs. But all that the power is actually doing is going in one meter and out the other.

I can imagine two ways of profiting from this. First, you've got a convincing demo with which to fleece another round of investors. Second---are there places where utilities (or governments) pay a premium for renewable energy? Maybe your "electroplating business" could be buying fossil power at $0.20/kWh, laundering it into the "fusion" which can sell "clean power" for $0.30/kWh. I would hope that there are inspection/verification ways of preventing this, but who knows.

(ETA: or, of course, you have diesel generator hidden in the basement and you sneak the fuel in at night.)

[Jrrarglblarg]

Let's not forget the possibility that the "3 months" claim is simply marketing, to be followed by engineering "just wait a bit longer" as the funds trickle in.

Then they blame the lack of funding for their failure to produce the results they claim possible.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by ApolloGnomon

Let's not forget the possibility that the "3 months" claim is simply marketing, to be followed by engineering "just wait a bit longer" as the funds trickle in.

Then they blame the lack of funding for their failure to produce the results they claim possible.

This is what I'm betting on. Faking a power plant has the potential to be caught out if someone is paying attention - buildings really do have to be rented, and power bought and sold, and at every step of that process, the possibility exists that someone in a position of authority might take a real interest in you, and discover what you're really up to.

Meanwhile, the "Any day now!" investor scam has worked well for other companies, to the tune of tens of millions of dollars over the last 20 years or so in at least one case, and you're largely immune to lawsuits, as the investors are told up front that this is a speculative investment, and "Oh, so sorry, unforeseen difficulties, no royalties for you this year!" is pretty much a get out of jail free card. So long as they can't prove you know you're full of ****, you can claim you've been working diligently to bring this to market, but have unfortunately failed in you efforts.

There's really no upside to these guys actually trying to build anything significant. If there was, one of them would have done so by now, I think.

[Skwinty]

Originally Posted by ben m

I would hope that there are inspection/verification ways of preventing this, but who knows.

As the device is no larger than a suitcase and is "capable" of generating 15kW, it should be easy to demonstrate in a medium sized fish tank.

[ben m]

Originally Posted by Horatius

There's really no upside to these guys actually trying to build anything significant. If there was, one of them would have done so by now, I think.

I completely agree. They'll never build a power plant, they'll just solicit investment for the powerplant that they promise they'll build as soon as they have enough investment.

The only fraudster I've heard of who actually faked the machine was Keely, who had some elaborate "aether powered" demonstrator. After his death his laboratory was ripped up and they found all the hidden pneumatic piping that had actually powered it.

(Steorn just went ahead and left a visible battery plugged into their "demonstrator"; you were supposed to accept their word for the fact that the battery wasn't discharging.)

[JoelKatz]

There was another great elaborate free energy fraud.

A guy had a device that was sealed in a box. He had observers measure the current and voltage coming from a wall socket and going into the box and the current and voltage going out into a load that consisted of many light bulbs. The box was less than a cubic foot in size. The output power was around 500W, the input around 200W.

He was able to take his setup to any location and reproduce it with much more power seeming to come out of the box than going in with the box running for days. The box was sealed with the exception of the cables. The box got warm but otherwise had no obvious changes.

His gimmick was ingenious. The device drew large amounts of input power in short spikes too quick for the current meter to read and too quick for a circuit breaker to react. Essentially, the inertia of the meter movement made it appear that the current never exceed a particular amount while the average current actually vastly exceeded that amount.

[soylent]

Originally Posted by shadron

Fusing nickel seems to be an excessively hard way to go...
...unless it is in a NiCad battery?

I'd say. Nickel-62 has the highest nuclear binding energy per nukleon of any isotope and the other nickel isotopes aren't much better.

[Hindmost]

Originally Posted by soylent

I'd say. Nickel-62 has the highest nuclear binding energy per nukleon of any isotope and the other nickel isotopes aren't much better.

Hmmmmm, Nukleon would be a great forum name..

glenn

[ben m]

Originally Posted by JoelKatz

His gimmick was ingenious. The device drew large amounts of input power in short spikes too quick for the current meter to read and too quick for a circuit breaker to react. Essentially, the inertia of the meter movement made it appear that the current never exceed a particular amount while the average current actually vastly exceeded that amount.

Brilliant! But evil. Do you have any more info on that?

[ben m]

Originally Posted by soylent

I'd say. Nickel-62 has the highest nuclear binding energy per nukleon of any isotope and the other nickel isotopes aren't much better.

Yeah---odd choice, isn't it? (Nevertheless, Ni-H fusion would still be exothermic.)

[Hindmost]

Originally Posted by ben m

Yeah---odd choice, isn't it? (Nevertheless, Ni-H fusion would still be exothermic.)

It would probably not be exothermic. If fusion did occur, the binding energy would decrease and so it would require energy.

glenn

[ben m]

Originally Posted by Hindmost

It would probably not be exothermic. If fusion did occur, the binding energy would decrease and so it would require energy.

glenn

No, it's exothermic. The binding energy of 62Ni is 545259.118 MeV. The binding energy of 63Cu is 551381.562. http://ie.lbl.gov/toimass.html

You're thinking of the binding energy per nucleon, which is indeed slightly higher for 62Ni than 63Cu. But the thing you want to calculate is the binding energy per nucleon of "62Ni + p" vs. the b.e.p.n. of "63Cu".

[Hindmost]

Originally Posted by ben m

No, it's exothermic. The binding energy of 62Ni is 545259.118 MeV. The binding energy of 63Cu is 551381.562. http://ie.lbl.gov/toimass.html

You're thinking of the binding energy per nucleon, which is indeed slightly higher for 62Ni than 63Cu. But the thing you want to calculate is the binding energy per nucleon of "62Ni + p" vs. the b.e.p.n. of "63Cu".

I am too lazy to run the calc, but Ni with a be/n of about 8.7 or so, the mass change you get with adding a proton would be less. So you would have to add 8.7 MeV to get something less out.

glenn

[ben m]

Originally Posted by Hindmost

I am too lazy to run the calc, but Ni with a be/n of about 8.7 or so, the mass change you get with adding a proton would be less. So you would have to add 8.7 MeV to get something less out.

Binding energy per nucleon of the large nuclei is not the conserved quantity in this problem. Total binding energy (all nucleons) is conserved. The binding energy per nucleon of the unbound state (p+62N) is 545259.118/63 = 8654.906 MeV, while the binding energy per nucleon of the bound state (63Cu) is 551381.562/63 = 8752.088 MeV. (Or multiply both sides by 63 to get the answer I gave before.)

Therefore this fusion is energetically favorable, radiating about 100 keV per nucleon or 6.2 MeV total.