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Tags Andrea Rossi , cold fusion

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Old 12th July 2012, 06:33 AM   #2881
ben m
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If I had a product with the property

Quote:
All data provided above may be subject to change due to the ECATs rapid development. Technical specifications will continuously be updated when changes are made.
I would not be promising to ship this product in four months.

Another fun spec:

Quote:
Water Input Temperature 4-85 C
Water Output Temperature 85-120 C
Pump 85 degree water in, get 85 degree water out? This part of the spec I actually believe.
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Old 12th July 2012, 07:07 AM   #2882
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And what if you pump in 90 degree water?
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Old 12th July 2012, 07:51 AM   #2883
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I'm off to Stundie this!
No cooling needed? Isn't the output supposed to be thermal energy?
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Old 12th July 2012, 08:04 AM   #2884
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Originally Posted by ben m View Post
If I had a product with the property



I would not be promising to ship this product in four months.

Another fun spec:



Pump 85 degree water in, get 85 degree water out? This part of the spec I actually believe.
Let me see if I've got this straight. In return for your money, he will promise to send you one of his electric water heaters in four months, and he further promises that the temperature differential will be somewhere between 0 and 116 degrees? Where do I sign up?
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Old 12th July 2012, 08:55 AM   #2885
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Originally Posted by TjW View Post
Well here's a goodie -- the fuel costs will be negligible. Wait, what?! I thought you put in electricity and got out heat. Now there's a fuel involved, too? Isn't that new, or have I just not been following it closely enough.
Ooooh my. You have not been paying attention. Rossi claims that he gets his energy by fusing hydrogen with nickel. The power input is used for preheating the nickel. Maybe. He has, of course, never specified exactly why he needs to do this once the reaction is up and running, claiming only "stability" issues. Except when he claims he has run it in standalone mode. And when he claims that the reaction has never run away. And...

Go back to the beginning of the thread, or even better the parent thread http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=198040. The first page will give you an introduction to the circus.
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Old 13th July 2012, 01:00 PM   #2886
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Originally Posted by Akuma Tennou View Post
errrr why spoiling the fun? think like a loony

that's the only thing they'll read
the guru himself says it


the only thing that annoys me is that i must wait 4 months to see a moment of clarity in some believers... but it'll be soooo fun
It will be purchased by a secret customer/s and you will never hear of it again.
All the real customers will be waiting indefinitely for the delivery :-)

Regards,
Yevgen
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Old 9th August 2012, 09:22 AM   #2887
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Bump. Now that Fleischmann is dead let the conspiratorial ravings begin again.
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Old 9th August 2012, 09:27 AM   #2888
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So, what's Rossi up to these days? Still waiting for a convincing demo.
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Old 9th August 2012, 11:57 AM   #2889
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Same old same old, wait until September this time...
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/08/ro...ublish-report/
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Old 9th August 2012, 01:56 PM   #2890
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Bump. Now that Fleischmann is dead let the conspiratorial ravings begin again.
He died?
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Old 9th August 2012, 03:11 PM   #2891
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
He died?
That's the claim - we're still waiting for conclusive evidence...
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Old 9th August 2012, 06:20 PM   #2892
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If Rossi actually has something, all he needs to do is let one of his "buyers" speak up and invite scientists in to see it. He hasn't, and there hasn't been a peep from the supposed "buyers". He seems to be the sole source of information on those claims.

This, to me, suggests Rossi, in fact, does not have anything.
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Old 9th August 2012, 11:23 PM   #2893
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
He died?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19180011
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Old 10th August 2012, 07:09 AM   #2894
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85 is a good run. I wish he really had found what he believed he had.
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Old 10th August 2012, 09:36 AM   #2895
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Bump. Now that Fleischmann is dead let the conspiratorial ravings begin again.
Well yeah! What else could an 85 year old man have died of other than being bumped off by the gubmint/Big Oil because he knew too much?
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Old 18th August 2012, 05:51 AM   #2896
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Originally Posted by Name Redacted View Post
I'll be here Dec 1. I'm not sure myself about Rossi, but there are people that wouldn't believe in this device if they were boiling to death in the water it was heating.
We know that heat came out and we know electricity went in, the problem is that the measurements were so poor we can't say much else.

I am not doubting anything other than the fact that the effect is undemonstrated.



I saved this post from June 12,2011 , since then Dec. 1 has passed. There is no confirmation that Rossi has done anything remarkable. I would say at this point the silence of the e-cat is overwhelming.

So despite all the puff, bluster and arguments of Rossi supporters, all the power points out of place and allusions to events that did not happen.

There is still no confirmation.
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Old 18th August 2012, 07:00 AM   #2897
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
I saved this post from June 12,2011 , since then Dec. 1 has passed. There is no confirmation that Rossi has done anything remarkable. I would say at this point the silence of the e-cat is overwhelming.

So despite all the puff, bluster and arguments of Rossi supporters, all the power points out of place and allusions to events that did not happen.

There is still no confirmation.
Some events have indeed happened, but perhaps more on the marketing than on the scientific side. Rossi has appointed a licencee for Italy and San Marino by the name of Aldo Proia. For this gentleman's background, see:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/07/ne...th-aldo-prioa/
Quote:
He made contact with Leonardo corporation following changes in the law in Italy which negatively affected the large scale photovoltaic installation business he was previously involved in.
It's rather surprising that changes in the law have made Proia's PV operation go negative, and I would be grateful for an explanantion. It seems to be a booming business in Italy, and there are plenty of solar farms. See wiki:
Quote:
Italy ranked among the world’s largest producers of electricity from solar power with an installed photovoltaic nameplate capacity of 12,750 MW at the end of 2011 and 263,594 plants in operation as of 18 August 2011. The total energy produced by solar power in 2011 was 10,730 GWh, about 3.2% of the total energy demand of 332.3 TWh. The installed photovoltaic capacity, compared to the previous year, has tripled in 2010 and almost quadrupled in 2011.
Indeed, three years ago Proia was actively seeking investors in his business, part of the booming PV industry. http://it.viadeo.com/fr/questions/re...024f3yf604njqg
Quote:
Collaboro con una società di sviluppo e progettazione Parchi solari da 1/2 e 3 MW in Emilia Romagna per un totale di 11 MW, cerchiamao investitori.
I hope that these "investitori" didn't lose too much, a hope which I extend to anyone adventurous enough to put money into the Rossi e-cat!

It will be recalled that changes in the law are given also as the cause of the failure of Rossi's venturesome Petroldragon project back in the seventies. These changes seem to dog the footsteps of Italian energy pioneers.

Another similarity is that both Proia and Rossi have uttered stern threats to pursue "slanderers" with great rigour. See http://cold-fusion.us/aldo-proia-war...f-e-cat-573100 These men have much in common, and must surely be able to collaborate to great mutual advantage.
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Old 18th August 2012, 09:58 AM   #2898
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So where is the fully functional unit demonstrated?

You know the one that was going to be available Dec. 1, 2012

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Old 18th August 2012, 10:39 AM   #2899
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
I saved this post from June 12,2011 , since then Dec. 1 has passed. There is no confirmation that Rossi has done anything remarkable. I would say at this point the silence of the e-cat is overwhelming.

So despite all the puff, bluster and arguments of Rossi supporters, all the power points out of place and allusions to events that did not happen.

There is still no confirmation.
Quote:
On 28 October 2011 the unit was "customer tested" and was said to release 2,635 kWh during five and a half hours of self sustained mode, an average power of 479 kilowatts – just under half the promised power of one megawatt. Independent observers were not allowed to watch the measurements or make their own, and the plant remained connected to a power supply during the test allegedly to supply power to the fans and the water pumps

Humm...

Just another free energy scam. Throw some bafflegab theories about, build a bogus device and con some academics into lending their prestige>>>profit.
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Old 19th August 2012, 07:38 AM   #2900
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
So where is the fully functional unit demonstrated?

You know the one that was going to be available Dec. 1, 2012

Well an investigation by the Florida Bureau of Radiation Controlforced Rossi to admit that he has no factory and his magic water heater doesn't utilise any nuclear reactions, but that was back in March.
Oh and Rossi has his own 'Stop Rossi' site now.
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Old 20th August 2012, 12:26 AM   #2901
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Where is Defkalion testing? Any info about that? It should have taken place July/August.
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Old 20th August 2012, 06:31 PM   #2902
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Originally Posted by Alcassin View Post
Where is Defkalion testing? Any info about that? It should have taken place July/August.
They have done a few tests, but neither the names of those performing the tests, nor the results of the said tests, have been revealed. The forum on their website is still closed. In spite of all their boasting about saving the Greek economy, they have decided to abandon Greece, and transfer their operation to Canada. So they say. Vancouver, if you want to believe it. This will unfortunately be the cause of "delay" in starting mass production of their mysterious contraption.

Defkalion's "Canada" must be located near the "Sweden" to which Rossi announced that he was moving, after the disagreeable visit from the Florida Board of Radiation Control.
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Old 20th August 2012, 08:33 PM   #2903
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Defkalion's "Canada" must be located near the "Sweden" to which Rossi announced that he was moving, after the disagreeable visit from the Florida Board of Radiation Control.
If Rossi has nothing and "cold fusion", proclaimed as bad science and not permitted to be patented, doesn't exist, why would anyone worry? There is nothing radioactive going into the reactor and nothing radioactive coming out, so there can't be any nuclear reaction occurring, can there? The prospect of not controlling probably irritates the board no end, as controlling makes for full board employment, but if that is the case, there is no radiation for the board to control.
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Old 20th August 2012, 08:38 PM   #2904
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Originally Posted by pteridine View Post
If Rossi has nothing and "cold fusion", proclaimed as bad science and not permitted to be patented, doesn't exist, why would anyone worry? There is nothing radioactive going into the reactor and nothing radioactive coming out, so there can't be any nuclear reaction occurring, can there? The prospect of not controlling probably irritates the board no end, as controlling makes for full board employment, but if that is the case, there is no radiation for the board to control.
but Rossi must act as if there is, or his scam is laid wide open.
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Old 20th August 2012, 09:09 PM   #2905
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Originally Posted by pteridine View Post
If Rossi has nothing and "cold fusion", proclaimed as bad science and not permitted to be patented, doesn't exist, why would anyone worry? There is nothing radioactive going into the reactor and nothing radioactive coming out, so there can't be any nuclear reaction occurring, can there?
Well, so you'd think. Of course, Rossi's patent application specifically mentions 511 keV gamma radiation, and all of the proposed fusion/fission processes do produce high-energy gammas. Not to mention Rossi's casual assertion that he has a low-cost means of separating out all of the nickel isotope that will produce long-term radioactivity.

Quote:
The prospect of not controlling probably irritates the board no end, as controlling makes for full board employment, but if that is the case, there is no radiation for the board to control.
The prospect of a rogue nuclear process which would be widely disseminated without first being cleared by some sort of board ought to do more than irritate you. It ought to scare you silly.
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Old 20th August 2012, 09:22 PM   #2906
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Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast View Post
<snip>


The prospect of a rogue nuclear process which would be widely disseminated without first being cleared by some sort of board ought to do more than irritate you. It ought to scare you silly.
+1 ...and if not, why not.
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Old 20th August 2012, 11:44 PM   #2907
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Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast View Post
The prospect of a rogue nuclear process which would be widely disseminated without first being cleared by some sort of board ought to do more than irritate you. It ought to scare you silly.
Never mind. It's quite good at boiling water and emitting puffs of steam, as long as it stays connected to the local power supply. My aunt's electric kettle can do that, with nary a gamma ray in sight.
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Old 21st August 2012, 04:27 AM   #2908
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Never mind. It's quite good at boiling water and emitting puffs of steam, as long as it stays connected to the local power supply. My aunt's electric kettle can do that, with nary a gamma ray in sight.
I want a bench test and still water bath on your grandma's kettle.

IT COULD SAVE THE WORLD, WE MUST INVESTIGATE!

Why does mainstream power and science suppress the tea kettle, they suppressed Einstein and Galileo as well!
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Old 21st August 2012, 04:34 AM   #2909
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Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast View Post
Well, so you'd think. Of course, Rossi's patent application specifically mentions 511 keV gamma radiation, and all of the proposed fusion/fission processes do produce high-energy gammas. Not to mention Rossi's casual assertion that he has a low-cost means of separating out all of the nickel isotope that will produce long-term radioactivity.


It's amusing isn't it? If we say they're full of crap, we're "ignoring real science", or even "suppressing the truth", but if we take their claims at face value, then all of a sudden we're "control freaks" who are "trying to protect our cushy jobs".


It never even occurs to them that we're actually what we say we are: open minded individuals who, why we don't currently believe them, are willing to consider their evidence, since the possibility of success would be so cool. That that "possibility" never actually pans out is hardly our fault.

No, instead of going ahead and proving their claims, they prefer to snipe at us.
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Old 21st August 2012, 04:56 AM   #2910
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Originally Posted by pteridine View Post
If Rossi has nothing and "cold fusion", proclaimed as bad science and not permitted to be patented, doesn't exist, why would anyone worry? There is nothing radioactive going into the reactor and nothing radioactive coming out, so there can't be any nuclear reaction occurring, can there? The prospect of not controlling probably irritates the board no end, as controlling makes for full board employment, but if that is the case, there is no radiation for the board to control.
Inconveniently for you, Rossi's other cheerleaders/dupes and believers in this nonsense in general, both Rossi's previous statements and his patent applications do claim nuclear reactions are happening in his magic water heater.
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Old 21st August 2012, 07:20 AM   #2911
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Originally Posted by pteridine View Post
If Rossi has nothing and "cold fusion", proclaimed as bad science and not permitted to be patented, doesn't exist, why would anyone worry? There is nothing radioactive going into the reactor and nothing radioactive coming out, so there can't be any nuclear reaction occurring, can there? The prospect of not controlling probably irritates the board no end, as controlling makes for full board employment, but if that is the case, there is no radiation for the board to control.
Who is worried?
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Old 22nd August 2012, 09:05 AM   #2912
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Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast View Post
Well, so you'd think. Of course, Rossi's patent application specifically mentions 511 keV gamma radiation, and all of the proposed fusion/fission processes do produce high-energy gammas. Not to mention Rossi's casual assertion that he has a low-cost means of separating out all of the nickel isotope that will produce long-term radioactivity.



The prospect of a rogue nuclear process which would be widely disseminated without first being cleared by some sort of board ought to do more than irritate you. It ought to scare you silly.

A rogue nuclear process which would be widely disseminated or open sourced in spite of bureaucratic control attempts would be bothersome. No isotope diffusion facilities needed; common metals [the effect may be general, more or less] and hydrogen are all that are needed. The posters on this board that are so certain in their knowledge that Rossi has nothing can't possibly be worried about this, and shouldn't even bother posting. Interestingly, they post with regularity. I have followed the posts and find them to be pretty much "piling on"; Dancing David and a few others seem particularly adept at this and fire off one liners regularly in attempts at humor or seeking group acceptance.
Are the closed-minded skeptics all reassuring themselves that 'this can't be' through some group exercise of attack and ridicule? Early nay-sayers [N. Lewis and R. Garwin come to mind] used their reputations as scientists to squelch any further open investigation. H-Bomb Garwin likely for the hot-fusion program at U Rochester and Lewis for just being his arrogant self.
Fortunately, scientists such as Dennis Bushnell at NASA have no fear of exploring the possibility that such reactions exist and do not publically ridicule those working on LENR. Florida's Board may have something to do, after all.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 10:01 AM   #2913
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Originally Posted by pteridine View Post
A rogue nuclear process which would be widely disseminated or open sourced in spite of bureaucratic control attempts would be bothersome. No isotope diffusion facilities needed; common metals [the effect may be general, more or less] and hydrogen are all that are needed. The posters on this board that are so certain in their knowledge that Rossi has nothing can't possibly be worried about this, and shouldn't even bother posting. Interestingly, they post with regularity. I have followed the posts and find them to be pretty much "piling on"; Dancing David and a few others seem particularly adept at this and fire off one liners regularly in attempts at humor or seeking group acceptance.
Are the closed-minded skeptics all reassuring themselves that 'this can't be' through some group exercise of attack and ridicule? Early nay-sayers [N. Lewis and R. Garwin come to mind] used their reputations as scientists to squelch any further open investigation. H-Bomb Garwin likely for the hot-fusion program at U Rochester and Lewis for just being his arrogant self.
Fortunately, scientists such as Dennis Bushnell at NASA have no fear of exploring the possibility that such reactions exist and do not publically ridicule those working on LENR. Florida's Board may have something to do, after all.
Gotta do something while waiting for the evidence.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 10:06 AM   #2914
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Originally Posted by pteridine View Post
I have followed the posts and find them to be pretty much "piling on"; Dancing David and a few others seem particularly adept at this and fire off one liners regularly in attempts at humor or seeking group acceptance.
I shall be blunt and plain.

You have no data, you have no evidence.

You never have, you can always bring real evidence and post it, so far Rossi hasn't.

You seem to have a problem with that. I am open minded, but there is no credible evidence.

Dec 1, 2011 has come and gone.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 10:15 AM   #2915
WhatRoughBeast
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Originally Posted by pteridine View Post
A rogue nuclear process which would be widely disseminated or open sourced in spite of bureaucratic control attempts would be bothersome. No isotope diffusion facilities needed; common metals [the effect may be general, more or less] and hydrogen are all that are needed.
All that are needed to do what? I've mentioned this before, but it was quite a while ago, so I'll toss it out again. An ecat would make a fabulous terrorist device. You strip out the cooling mechanisms, leaving only the core and a heater. This, combined with a small battery and a timer, would be located in any public area, producing massive quantities of gamma radiation. And if you replace the magically isotope-depleted nickel with regular nickel, you get a highly radioactive remnant. The package would be small and essentially undetectable until it was triggered (no precusor radiation). The number of people actually killed would be small, but the effect would be terrifying, since the radiation exposure would be unnoticed at the time.

Quote:
The posters on this board that are so certain in their knowledge that Rossi has nothing can't possibly be worried about this, and shouldn't even bother posting.
Two responses.

First, yes. If you don't believe a phenomenon exists, there is no use in worrying about a misuse of that non-existent phenomenon. The question really ought to be, why don''t the pro-Rossi folks worry about it? They're the ones who believe in the possibility.

Second, that would include me in the anti-Rossi camp. Just because I can follow a concept to its logical conclusion doesn't mean I have to accept the concept. I was first introduced to the ecat with the news of the first public demonstration, and upon reading the Swedish report it was instantly and obviously apparent that Rossi was lying. Reading the patent application confirmed it. Observing Rossi's behavior since then has confirmed it in spades.

But hey, I could be wrong. Regardless, the implications of Rossi's claims remain.

Quote:
Interestingly, they post with regularity. I have followed the posts and find them to be pretty much "piling on"; Dancing David and a few others seem particularly adept at this and fire off one liners regularly in attempts at humor or seeking group acceptance.
That's not seeking group acceptance. It's trying to cope with a quite remarkable level of self-delusion and selective inattention on the part of the pro-Rossi camp. In the face of such determined levels of irrationality, one-liners are really the only realistic response.

Quote:
Are the closed-minded skeptics all reassuring themselves that 'this can't be' through some group exercise of attack and ridicule? Early nay-sayers [N. Lewis and R. Garwin come to mind] used their reputations as scientists to squelch any further open investigation. H-Bomb Garwin likely for the hot-fusion program at U Rochester and Lewis for just being his arrogant self.
Fortunately, scientists such as Dennis Bushnell at NASA have no fear of exploring the possibility that such reactions exist and do not publically ridicule those working on LENR. Florida's Board may have something to do, after all.
Aaaand we have the segue. Suddenly, we're not talking about Rossi, we're talking about the LENR concept in general. And in fact, that's what you were talking about all along.

Oh, and the BRC is unlikely to have anything to do as long as Rossi continues to lie. Their remit does not extend to the investigation of fraud.

Last edited by WhatRoughBeast; 22nd August 2012 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 10:20 AM   #2916
Aepervius
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
I shall be blunt and plain.

You have no data, you have no evidence.

You never have, you can always bring real evidence and post it, so far Rossi hasn't.

You seem to have a problem with that. I am open minded, but there is no credible evidence.

Dec 1, 2011 has come and gone.
and Dec 1, 2012 is coming with great stride.
Oh my i even see it around the corner.
And yet the data eternaly seem to hide,
There is as much as there was past december.

Last edited by Aepervius; 22nd August 2012 at 10:22 AM. Reason: for the rhyme
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Old 22nd August 2012, 02:02 PM   #2917
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by pteridine View Post
Fortunately, scientists such as Dennis Bushnell at NASA have no fear of exploring the possibility that such reactions exist and do not publically ridicule those working on LENR.
So who is Dennis Bushnell?
He is a mechanical engineer who has had a long career at NASA. He is quoted in the press as being an LENR supporter. This is his personal opinion and nothing to do with NASA.

He is also a gullible person because he supported Andrea Rossi's E-Cat in May 2011. That interview demonstrates Dennis Bushnell has a weak grasp of the scientific process. He says that there are theories to explain LENR and thus LENR exists (without any credible evidence from experiments). He has it backward. You can have theories about something but they are just hypotheses until there is empirical evidence to select one of them as valid.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 05:48 PM   #2918
pteridine
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It is obvious to anyone that the Ecat may make a terrorist device. You don't know who worries about such an event.
Yes, you could be wrong. All skeptics should state this somewhere just in case this thing works.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 06:26 PM   #2919
WhatRoughBeast
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Originally Posted by pteridine View Post
It is obvious to anyone that the Ecat may make a terrorist device.
Really? So why doesn't anybody talk about it? And if it is obvious to everyone, how can anyone justify large-scale distribution? And if so, why did you write
Originally Posted by pteridine View Post
The prospect of not controlling probably irritates the board no end, as controlling makes for full board employment,

Quote:
You don't know who worries about such an event.
Well, it's pretty clear that Rossi doesn't.

Quote:
Yes, you could be wrong. All skeptics should state this somewhere just in case this thing works.
And where do Rossi's supporters state that they could be wrong?

Last edited by WhatRoughBeast; 22nd August 2012 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 07:43 PM   #2920
pteridine
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I have stated all along that the ECat may not work as claimed. Many on here petulantly demand proof that satisfies their own personal criteria and, if not instantly gratified, immedately conclude that Rossi is a fraud.
I have recommended that you wait for a public demonstration by a disinterested third party and examine the evidence before concluding that there is nothing here. Many delight in making snide comments or attempt humor [e.g., the electric tea kettle 'joke'] rather than to patiently await results. There need be no rush to conclude anything.
I am convinced that the phenomenon, now referred to as LENR, is worthy of further study.
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