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Tags gun issues , guns , Utah issues

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Old 28th January 2011, 03:44 AM   #1
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Utah considers new state symbol: will Browning M1911 be the official state firearm?

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A Browning M1911 semiautomatic pistol may soon join the sego lily, Rocky Mountain elk and sugar beet as official symbols of the state of Utah.

The State Senate is considering a measure passed by the House of Representatives on Wednesday that would declare the .45-caliber handgun the official state firearm the first in the country.

"This firearm was created by John Moses Browning, who was a son of Utah pioneers," said Republican Rep. Carl Wimmer of Herriman, Utah, during debate on the House floor. "This firearm really has defended liberty and freedom around the country and around the world. And I think this is a very appropriate designation to capture a portion of the state history."
I personally don't have a problem with a state having an official firearm. In this case there is even a tie in to local history - as should be the case in state symbols. The particular timing may be a bit indelicate, but the concept itself is not inappropriate.
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Old 28th January 2011, 09:27 AM   #2
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Nice. I grew up in Utah in high school and middle school. I absolutely hated how Mormonism was ingrained in every bit of society there. But they are definitely getting something right by incorporating a firearm as a state symbol
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 28th January 2011, 10:26 AM   #3
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Sweet. Will they be giving them out at the welcome centers, like orange juice in Florida?
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Old 28th January 2011, 11:11 AM   #4
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Since we have state birds, fossils, flowers, and whatever... I suppose a firearm isn't TOO farfetched. Browning is generally considered a genius in firearms-design circles.

I wonder which state will vie for the "Saturday night special" on the state flag?
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Old 28th January 2011, 12:03 PM   #5
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The only pistol I've had that feels better in the hand than the Gummint model is the Luger.
Sweet.
The knuckle rapping from the Ruger Super Blackhawk was a real flinch inducer over the course of fire at the IHMSA matches.
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Old 28th January 2011, 04:09 PM   #6
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I believe Browning was a Utah state resident. But the Rocky Mountains aren't in Utah, so the elk is stupid.
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Old 28th January 2011, 04:23 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Tiktaalik View Post
I believe Browning was a Utah state resident.
Yes. That's why they chose this particular weapon.
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Old 28th January 2011, 04:32 PM   #8
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I dunno. While the 1911 was a very good design for its time handguns have progressed over the last 100 years.
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Old 28th January 2011, 05:06 PM   #9
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Not to hear real 1911 fans tell it.... Of course, you can either modify your "old" 1911 to the extent Browning would hardly have recognized it, or purchase one from a variety of firms that incorporate all manner of improvements.

I'm thinking Illinois should go for the "Tommy" gun.... Part of their heritage, after all.
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Old 28th January 2011, 05:19 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I wonder which state will vie for the "Saturday night special" on the state flag?
New Jersey?
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Old 28th January 2011, 05:35 PM   #11
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How about the M-2 instead?
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Old 28th January 2011, 06:33 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
How about the M-2 instead?
Yes, Browning's contributions are many.

Quote:
Browning's most successful designs include the M1911 pistol, the Browning .50 caliber machine gun, the Browning Automatic Rifle, and a ground-breaking semi-automatic shotgun, the Browning Auto-5. These arms are nearly identical today to those assembled by Browning in the 1920s, with only minor changes in detail and cosmetics. Nearly all parts may be freely swapped between the earliest and latest of each series of these weapons, no matter when made, which has extended their service lifespan nearly indefinitely.
los wikies

The M2 is still in the military's arsenals, deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan today. That's some good engineering!
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Old 28th January 2011, 06:51 PM   #13
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I still find this funnier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_soils
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Old 28th January 2011, 07:35 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
How about the M-2 instead?
While Browning is one of the best gun designers in history, and he as many, many great designs, the 1911 makes sense. It is one of the best known pistols on earth, one that is very much tied to WWII.

Even though I think the HiPower is better.
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Old 28th January 2011, 08:32 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
While Browning is one of the best gun designers in history, and he as many, many great designs, the 1911 makes sense. It is one of the best known pistols on earth, one that is very much tied to WWII.
And WWI, Korea, Vietnam and is still used by the US military in limited capacities today.

Quote:
Even though I think the HiPower is better.
Them's fightin' words!

Seriously, though, it's not really known just how much Browning himself was responsible for the HP-35. It is a good gun, though, no question about that.

As for the M2, Browning didn't see the need for a new heavy machine gun and had no interest in actually designing one, so he basically just took his design for the M1919 .30 caliber machine gun and doubled its size. While it's a pretty good testament to his skill as a gun designer that it worked at all, much less was ultimately more successful than the original design.

But I'm not sure that is the weapon he should be remembered for.

I'd go for one of his earliest designs, the M1887 Winchester, one of the first repeating shotguns ever, but the M1911 is a good choice too.
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Old 28th January 2011, 09:13 PM   #16
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My point was that in popular conception, the 1911 Army is the 'good guy's gun'.

Yeah, I know the whole FN/Browning history thing, and the confusion around it. I just like to bring that up as often as possible because US gun guys make fun of my FN admiration that Browning couldn't make guns in the US for a while so those 'pussy Europeans' embraced him.

I like Browning's long arm designs better personally.
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Old 29th January 2011, 09:01 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
While Browning is one of the best gun designers in history
Ehhh, Mikhail Kalashnikov could be a contender for that spot. It would depend on how you define "best."

Consistently awesome firearms, whether pistols, rifles, or shotties, over the course of a career? Browning.

Most influential firearm in the history of the world? Kalashnikov (who, in a related note, already has his firearms on government flags...).

Last edited by Grizzly Adams; 29th January 2011 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 29th January 2011, 10:45 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
Ehhh, Mikhail Kalashnikov could be a contender for that spot. It would depend on how you define "best."

Consistently awesome firearms, whether pistols, rifles, or shotties, over the course of a career? Browning.

Most influential firearm in the history of the world? Kalashnikov (who, in a related note, already has his firearms on government flags...).
.
I've seen arguments that K was an adapter/plagarizier, more than pure designer like Browning.
Lots of Soviet politics, which could be deadly, involved there.
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Old 29th January 2011, 12:35 PM   #19
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I must say, I am VERY surprised. There hasn't been a single anti gun nutter in this thread crying about how if the gun is made a state symbol, anyone who lives in the state of Utah will be more likely to shoot a family member.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 29th January 2011, 12:56 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
I must say, I am VERY surprised. There hasn't been a single anti gun nutter in this thread crying about how if the gun is made a state symbol, anyone who lives in the state of Utah will be more likely to shoot a family member.
Shhhhhhhh
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Old 29th January 2011, 02:04 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
Ehhh, Mikhail Kalashnikov could be a contender for that spot. It would depend on how you define "best."

Consistently awesome firearms, whether pistols, rifles, or shotties, over the course of a career? Browning.

Most influential firearm in the history of the world? Kalashnikov (who, in a related note, already has his firearms on government flags...).
Even then, I'd still go with Browning. His innovations in firearms design rapidly became standard in the industry, especially his work self loading pistols. The 1903 and 1911 both literally changed the way semi-auto handguns work. Kalashnikov simply took existing innovations and combined them into a pretty good rifle that the Soviets then sold just about everyone.

A pretty good argument could be made for Hiram Maxim, but not Kalashnikov.
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Old 30th January 2011, 08:10 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by ApolloGnomon View Post
Yes, Browning's contributions are many.


los wikies

The M2 is still in the military's arsenals, deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan today. That's some good engineering!
The M2s service time is definitely impressive, and it has done us well. I must say though, the M2 has some major deficiencies. For example, it is extremely heavy. It really sucks having to lug the thing out to the trucks everyday and it makes it almost useless as a dismounted machine gun. Then the biggest downfall is having to set headspace and timing every time you change the barrel out. This process can take a few minutes, and it is definitely not something you want to be messing with if you are under fire. Not to mention if you do not do it correctly, the gun can explode and cause injury:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...8-arnews06.htm

Hopefully a replacement will work out. There is already a quick change barrel out that makes it so you don't have to set headspace and timing anymore (Hasn't made it to the line troops in Iraq yet), but it is still heavy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning_machine_gun

Hopefully this one works out though:
http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/10/02...lf-the-weight/
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 30th January 2011, 08:37 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
How about the M-2 instead?
1911, M2, BAR, anything but the Auto-5.
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Old 30th January 2011, 09:01 AM   #24
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More than not seeing anti-gun comments I am surprised to not be seeing anti-government waste comments. Nearly anytime a state symbol debate hits Oregon there are articles in the paper decrying how much of a huge waste of money it is and pointing out how much each hour of Congress meeting costs us. This is even in years of surplus rather than just years of deficit. Personally, I think symbols can have a meaningful affect on a populace so see no problem as long as it does not get excessive. Adding a state firearm does not seem excessive, especially one with history and a tie to the state like in this situation. I am personally fairly ignorant of firearms so cannot comment on the specific merits of the M1911, but Brownings in general are a staple of literature, fiction or not. As far as a thematic connection this is a decent choice the residents of Utah can take pride in.
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Old 30th January 2011, 11:17 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
My point was that in popular conception, the 1911 Army is the 'good guy's gun'.

Yeah, I know the whole FN/Browning history thing, and the confusion around it. I just like to bring that up as often as possible because US gun guys make fun of my FN admiration that Browning couldn't make guns in the US for a while so those 'pussy Europeans' embraced him.

I like Browning's long arm designs better personally.
.
"Good guy's gun"...
My Dad getting a Bronze Star in France....
And me astronomizing out in the desert...
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