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What is the goal & objective of Holocaust denial?

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Thunder

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Why do they deny the Holocaust? What are they trying to achieve?

there are a few possibilities:

a. defend the honor and reputation of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.

b. make it possible to have a revival of Nazi political power in Germany and elsewhere.

c. portray the Jews as a lieing, manipulating people who have hoodwinked the world, and therefore must be "dealt with".

d. justify genocide and/or exile of the Jewish people.


..which one do YOU think it is?
 
I would add 'being against the mainstream as a matter of opinion"
 
i have yet to witness a Holocaust-denier who seems to simply be a contrarian...or a Devil's Advocate.

Some of them seem to adopt an apologist stance for the sake of doing it. Often at the expense of the US - example Pearl Harbor etc get into the mix.

With one or two exceptions I have found their knowledge of history to be of a low level, and their ability to understand causality exceedingly limited.
 
The real objective is to make it easy to identify them as batcrap crazies. That way, we don't have to put ear tags on them.
 
In all honesty the goals and objectives of Holocaust denial are rather divorced these days from their motivations.

Although some deniers are exceptionally delusional even by denier standards, and might actually believe that 'revisionism' is capable of bringing about a Third Reich revival or bringing down the state of Israel, the majority are probably realistic enough in their heart of hearts to know that they are little more than an irritant, and therefore, their goals and objectives are as follows:
  • to act like jackasses
  • to get attention and be told they are jackasses
  • to gratify their egos by getting attention and being told they are jackasses
  • to convince themselves they are special and important because everyone tells them they are jackasses
  • to provoke such disgust and contempt by being jackasses that they are insulted, disciplined, banned, ejected or - fantasy of fantasies - jailed, thereby validating their belief that they are Galileo
In short, the overwhelming majority of deniers embrace their views for the same reasons as any other garden variety conspiracist troll touts their shtick: narcissicism, the Dunning-Krueger effect, and a wholly irrational belief that they are privy to a great insight into recent history which as it is roundly rejected by 99.9% of the population, is self-evidently 'true' to them, since they are contrarians.

Though some of this breed claim they believe in something called 'Revisionism', in my experience the number of deniers who actually agree with 'Revisionist' texts longer than a short article penned by Faurisson and who have really read from cover to cover books by Butz etc, is less than 10% of all denier trolls online. Another 10-30% pretend they believe in something called 'Revisionism', but in fact have never read an entire denier book cover to cover. The rest simply make it up as they go along, supplemented with occasional glances at shorter denier articles or the odd YouTube-style video.

The majority of denier arguments are formulated as memes, which is why they repeat themselves over and over and over again, simultaneously seeking to annoy and bore their targets to death. Occasionally a denier might stir itself enough from its lethargy to engage in a classic Gish Gallop, but this is actually a rare event, and most prefer to engage in a pseudointellectual Thermopylae discussing one piece of evidence at a time, viz. most of the discussions on this forum. Requests to discuss more than one piece of evidence at a time usually result in the denier spewing out rationalisations as to why this is impossible or attempts to change the subject, or are met with deafening silence. In this respect, denier argumentation online has descended to roughly the same level as any other conspiraloon belief system, except that a certain minority of deniers are evidently deeply uncomfortable making conspiracy claims and try to avoid them like the plague, while the rest blether tediously about a wholly undefined and unproved 'holohoax'.

In a few cases - largely confined to the group of deniers who pretend to believe in 'Revisionism' - denial is also really little more than 80s retro, fantasising about supposed glory days which the deniers either experienced or believe they experienced because of what they have read on VHO, CODOH, IHR etc. They would much rather the clock be turned back to 1985 than 1935.

While it is quite true that the overwhelming majority of deniers are antisemites and fall down the 'revisonist' rabbit hole because of their antisemitism, in actual practice this antisemitism does not really define their goals and objectives. To the extent that there is any relationship at all between deniers' antisemitism and their goals, it is to act like jackasses by annoying 'the Jews'. Irritating 'the Jews' might therefore be considered the prime objective of the majority of deniers. Getting a rise out of them and sucking 'the Jews' into a prolonged argument would be best. Forcing 'the Jews' to ban/eject/jail them would be better still, as martyrdom evidently validates their embrace of the delusional architecture of denial. Since fundamentally deniers are only in it to act like jackasses, they have a fairly high success rate in getting themselves banned/ejected/jailed, which allows the delusional system to propel itself forward a little longer.

Fundamentally, therefore, denial is a form of masochism. This is the only possible conclusion I can come to which explains little grey rabbit, anyway.
 
i have yet to witness a Holocaust-denier who seems to simply be a contrarian...or a Devil's Advocate.

Oh, I have seen a few that are the types the latch on onto anything that is "daring""anti standard opinion" and "edgy". But the overwhelming majority are Nazi apologist and Anti Semites.
 
According to a quote on the bottom of Nizkor's homepage from a minor neo-Nazi party webpage, it's to make National Socialism a viable alternative again.
 
The Strange Case of David Cole

i have yet to witness a Holocaust-denier who seems to simply be a contrarian...or a Devil's Advocate.

Then you've never heard of Jewish Holocaust denier David Cole. (Yes, I said a Jewish Holocaust denier. Cole's parentage is Jewish on both sides.) Here he is on the Phil Donahue Show in 1994.


Michael Shermer who was on that Donahue episode with Cole wrote about him later in this book (starting on page 200).

Perversity and contrariness probably wasn't Cole's sole motivation but that played obviously a big part. Cole didn't just dabble in Holocaust denial. He was on the board of the Institute for Historical Review and went to Auschwitz to make a denier-financed video "debunking" the gas chambers.

(Side note to Thunder: The usual "self-hating Jew" epitaph is too simplistic to account for someone like Cole.)
 
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To show their love for Hitler and to show the world that they hate Jews.
 
Why do they deny the Holocaust? What are they trying to achieve?

there are a few possibilities:

a. defend the honor and reputation of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.

b. make it possible to have a revival of Nazi political power in Germany and elsewhere.

c. portray the Jews as a lieing, manipulating people who have hoodwinked the world, and therefore must be "dealt with".

d. justify genocide and/or exile of the Jewish people.

..which one do YOU think it is?
a and b are most likely - which is odd since c actually applies to things like nazi's and their little b-boys - such as we see some of posting in these parts.
 
a and b are most likely - which is odd since c actually applies to things like nazi's and their little b-boys - such as we see some of posting in these parts.
I think you're giving the rank and file holocaust-denier to much credit. Could be as dimwitted and simple as thinking if they could somehow disprove the holocaust anti-semitism will become acceptable enough again that they can spout their drivel in public without people regarding them as utter cretins.
A small minded goal for tiny minded people.
 
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Why do they deny the Holocaust? What are they trying to achieve?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

Holocaust denial consists of claims that the genocide of Jews during World War II—usually referred to as the Holocaust[1]—did not occur at all, or that minimizes its nature or extent. The key claims of Holocaust deniers are: the German Nazi government had no official policy or intention of exterminating Jews, Nazis did not use extermination camps and gas chambers to mass murder Jews, and the actual number of Jews killed was an order of magnitude lower than the historically accepted figure of 5 to 6 million.
 
I think it's very simple: the Holocaust gave white supremacism a bad name, so explaining it away as a hoax gives the haters a nice white-wash, plus gives them an excuse for hating on the darkies. 'sides, Hitler is a hero to them, since he did away with all those jooos...

In other words: It didn't happen, but they deserved it.

Scuse me, I have to go wash my brain out with soap now.
 
I've always had a hard time getting my head around the motivation of Holocaust deniers. Mostly because pretty much all of the ones I've heard seemed to wish it was true.

ArmillarySphere said:
In other words: It didn't happen, but they deserved it

Yep, that's exactly how I've interpreted their position. Allthough to be fair, the ones I'm thinking of are hate-spewing neo-Nazis. I've always found it ironic that they of all would bother with this kind of white-washing. It's almost as if they care about what people think of them. :rolleyes:

But I realize that it's not neccessarily all Holocaust deniers who agree with that position. At least not publicly.

I suspect that you could find examples of all four categories of goals and objectives among deniers. But I have no idea which is the most common. The neo-Nazis I've heard, seemed to have all four of them at once though.
 
You know when you walk into a room full of new people, and you try to make a good impression, because you don't want your actions to ruin your good reputation?

Well, the exact opposite of that.
 
I've always had a hard time getting my head around the motivation of Holocaust deniers. Mostly because pretty much all of the ones I've heard seemed to wish it was true.

Yep, that's exactly how I've interpreted their position. Allthough to be fair, the ones I'm thinking of are hate-spewing neo-Nazis. I've always found it ironic that they of all would bother with this kind of white-washing. It's almost as if they care about what people think of them. :rolleyes:
Haters don't exactly start from a position of intellectual honesty, so I suppose part is just trying to drown out the sound of reality breaking their precious illusions. Racism in general serves much the same function as other CTs - a pretty fantasy of placing yourself among the winners, when the reality is anything but. Most racists (though, admittedly, not all) have little education, are frequently unemployed or in minimum-wage jobs and few prospects of being relevant. Dreaming that they're fighting for some cause gives them some sorely needed self-confidence, without having to do something as daring as leaving their mom's basement.

I suspect that you could find examples of all four categories of goals and objectives among deniers. But I have no idea which is the most common. The neo-Nazis I've heard, seemed to have all four of them at once though.

Four? I didn't see that many ... care to list them?
 
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Edited to remove quote of post that was moved to the split thread


Evidently, the goal and objective of deniers on this forum is to turn themselves into poster children for lack of reading comprehension.

How, pray tell, was your post in any way, shape or form actually responsive to the post you ostensibly replied to? Here is it again:

It would be interesting to hear from the 'revisionists' what they THINK their goals and objectives are ON THIS FORUM.
Try again, this time in your own words.
 
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Evidently, the goal and objective of deniers on this forum is to turn themselves into poster children for lack of reading comprehension.

How, pray tell, was your post in any way, shape or form actually responsive to the post you ostensibly replied to? Here is it again:



Try again, this time in your own words.

It doesn't matter where exactly really. It's to engage in a discussion and "spread the word" in a way. I can assure you that even in this forum it is working. I have most certainly taken notice of some members that have showed signs of curiosity. They just won't come out in the open about it. Then there are many more "lurkers" which leads to my other reason. This forum is a fairly popular one and shows up prominently in google searches and that I post here specifically in these forums understanding the potential broad reach. That is to say my reasons are for everyone else.

You also sort of need revisionists coming to post here don't you think? Or else it dies like that Rodoh forum.
 
It doesn't matter where exactly really. It's to engage in a discussion and "spread the word" in a way. I can assure you that even in this forum it is working. I have most certainly taken notice of some members that have showed signs of curiosity. They just won't come out in the open about it. Then there are many more "lurkers" which leads to my other reason. This forum is a fairly popular one and shows up prominently in google searches and that I post here specifically in these forums understanding the potential broad reach. That is to say my reasons are for everyone else.

OK, so you're admitting you're proselytising, sort of, and hoping to appeal to 'lurkers' or indirectly to google searchers.

How effective do you think you are when you make such basic errors as admitting not knowing that Auschwitz was also a labour camp?

You also sort of need revisionists coming to post here don't you think? Or else it dies like that Rodoh forum.

No, I don't need deniers coming here, any more than I need deniers to turn up at RODOH.

I'm on public record, quoted in a newspaper, stating that denial is in decline, and I base that assertion on the fact that in observing this peculiar little scene for several years, there are actually very few of you. Even CODOH forum sees barely 50 posters/month, RODOH at its peak had maybe a dozen/month, on here we have about half a dozen (versus nearly 27,000 registered members, and nearly 3,000 active members).

And it's virtually always the same people, since they recycle their usernames or can be identified by what they say on one forum about another forum as the same people.

In total, there are not more than 100-200 people who post on the internet in English who advocate denial in 'conventional' locations. On a month by month basis, there are less than 100.

There are somewhat more who would consider themselves revisionists or deniers - cute how the current internet warriors so often embrace the term that a previous generation avoided - on white nationalist and neo-Nazi forums, with a smaller cadre - still very small though - on loony sites like the David Icke forum.

In both examples, revisionists who are OBVIOUSLY white nationalists or neo-Nazis or who OBVIOUSLY embrace lunatic-fringe conspiracy theories are simply shooting 'the cause' in the foot by associating this supposedly serious idea with partisan fringe politics and with uter batcrap craziness.

Unfortunately for the 'cause', a significant number of the c. 100 revisionists who post on CODOH or in 'conventional' forums like this one, are also obviously members of the partisan fringe or simply batcrap crazy.

As has been pointed out above by others and by myself, the level of historical knowledge displayed by the circa 100 'revisionists' on here and elsewhere not posting on Stormfront or David Icke forum is utterly abysmal. Maybe a dozen have realised it might be a good idea to read some books and learn about what it is they supposedly are disputing. The other 90% think it's a clever idea to regurgitate the dumbest of memes like 'six million gassed' or expose themselves as hopeless ignoramuses incapable of even reading a Wiki page.

Every year, maybe a few people fall down the rabbit hole, despite literally thousands of newspaper articles mentioning this thing called Holocaust denial, and literally thousands of links on the internet offering denier books and articles for free download or online perusal. I'm not sure that there is much difference in effectiveness between denier propaganda and Viagra spam.
 
This thread has strayed far from its subject and turned into more of a 'general' Holocaust denial discussion so those posts have been split to a new general discussion thread here. Please use that thread for ALL general Holocaust denial discussion instead of starting new threads on the subject. Also, several posts have been split to Abandon All Hope for being either off topic or otherwise breaching the Membership Agreement and it is likely that some infractions will follow. Stick to the subject, remain civil and polite, and otherwise in compliance with the Membership Agreement.
Posted By: LashL
 
so, could we possibly get some Holocaust deniers to tell us what their goal and agenda is for spreading their Holocaust-denial?
 
so, could we possibly get some Holocaust deniers to tell us what their goal and agenda is for spreading their Holocaust-denial?


You know how you always hear people talking about how much they identify with the philosophy of Nazism but they just can't get past that Jew killing thing from the 1940s? So I thought, if we just tell people that Nazis never killed the Jews, Nazism would become a viable political option, right? Once we convince people we never killed the Jews and we never will, millions of people will join the Nazi party and Nazis will be swept into office. Then, when that happens, we'll go on TV and shout "PSYCH!!! Ha Ha! Fooled you all!" And then we'll start killing all the Jews!

You gotta admit, it's a brilliant strategy!

Pretty tricky of use, wouldn't you say? I bet you thought the only reason we do this is because our hatred of Jews is so complete we think six million of them not being exterminated would be great.
 
You know how you always hear people talking about how much they identify with the philosophy of Nazism but they just can't get past that Jew killing thing from the 1940s?

It's the philosophy? Come on, admit it, the real appeal of Nazism is the spiffy uniforms and the salute ! Those were the days. Can you imagine giving the Nazi salute to Obama? Unthinkable !
 
The real appeal of nazism is from people who imagine themselves gods among men, but in reality are nearly powerless. That's why it is so appealing to them. If a borderline retarded chronic failure like hitler can come to power, they think they can as well.
 
So the Jews think of themselves as god's chosen. As do the Christians and the followers of Islam. WTF is your point?

P.S. I never said that the nazis think of themselves as god's chosen people, I said that they think of themselves as gods among men, when in reality they are what filth might wipe off its shoe.
 
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P.S. I never said that the nazis think of themselves as god's chosen people, I said that they think of themselves as gods among men, when in reality they are what filth might wipe off its shoe.

Rabbi Manis Friedman explicitly says that Zionists are Gods among humans, when in reality they are the ..... well you get my drift.
 
So the Jews think of themselves as god's chosen. As do the Christians and the followers of Islam. WTF is your point?

P.S. I never said that the nazis think of themselves as god's chosen people, I said that they think of themselves as gods among men, when in reality they are what filth might wipe off its shoe.

The term you are looking for is "Herrenrasse".
 
Rabbi Manis Friedman explicitly says that Zionists are Gods among humans, when in reality they are the ..... well you get my drift.

lets say this is true. who cares?

who is this Rabbi? I never heard of him. some Priests and Ministers say horrible things about non-Christians.

many Immams say terrible things about non-Muslims.

we know there are racists & bigots in all faiths. what's new.
 
Rabbi Manis Friedman explicitly says that Zionists are Gods among humans, when in reality they are the ..... well you get my drift.

There are a lot of people out there who take issue with the whole "Chosen ones" issue.

It's funny though because that's what it says in the bible. Many of the Christians out there accept it as well and so do many Muslims. God did choose this tribe in the bible to be his people.

Read the story of Abraham and you'll see. If you accept the bible as the word of God then why would you argue against the Jews being the chosen ones when that is exactly what it says?

I'm an atheist btw, but I'm baffled why you are making this argument. The one thing you cannot accuse a Jew of doing is being lazy when it comes to religion. Most active Jews are very observant and that can be a real pain the but in day to day life. But they do it because they believe that the Torah is true.

So I'm not sure what your point is? Should they be ashamed of themselves for being chosen by God? I don't get it.
 
So I'm not sure what your point is? Should they be ashamed of themselves for being chosen by God? I don't get it.

There seems to be a lot you don't 'get'. The Jews are the prototypical racists. Should they be ashamed of that? They're murdering Palestinians in their homes, should they be ashamed of that? They're lying through their teeth about the holohoax, and I'll tell you, they sure as hell should be ashamed of that.
 
There seems to be a lot you don't 'get'. The Jews are the prototypical racists. Should they be ashamed of that? They're murdering Palestinians in their homes, should they be ashamed of that? They're lying through their teeth about the holohoax, and I'll tell you, they sure as hell should be ashamed of that.

Ok but let's see

The Jews that were in the Holocaust are mostly dead. So what does that have to do with Palestine?

I'm still not seeing how you are getting from point A to point B? Unless you think a "Jew" is just a sort of monster entity that has the same brain and being forever and ever as part of some borg type machine entity?

Otherwise you are talking about two different groups of people? So I'm not getting why you are treating them like they are the same people?

Those who supposedly decided to start this secret fake Holocaust in 1906 were either really brilliant and powerful 2-3 year olds, or they are DEAD? It's 2011? What are you trying to suggest? It's different people in each of the situations you have brought up?


And what does this have to do with the Torah saying they are God's chosen people? That IS what it says in the bible and Torah? So what is wrong with them saying it?
 
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And what does this have to do with the Torah saying they are God's chosen people? That IS what it says in the bible and Torah? So what is wrong with them saying it?

Because it's not blond-haired Aryans saying it!
And the Torah lies!
And Jews aren't people, so how can they be CHOSEN people?

C'mon, isn't it obvious?
 
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