Pope Benedict: "Jews didn't help crucify Jesus"

Thunder

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http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=210480

while I appreciate the Pope's defense of the Jewish people, this does beg the questions:

"how the hell could anyone know?"

"was he there to report on it?"

"why is his reading of the Gospels any better than mine, yours or his?"



..this whole idea that one can read the same 2,000 year old book that's been read by millions and millions of people, and find something new, is just silly.

I've read the Gospels. And its clear that if the history of the Gospels is true, than the Jewish leadership did play some role in Jesus' arrest.

But its just a stupid story book, so who cares.

:)
 
It seems that if you leave out the mystical mumbo-jumbo, the account of the arrest, incarceration, trial and execution reads like a tabloid story.

Jesus stirs up trouble for the Pharisees, but authoritatively and economically. The Pharisees want Him taken down, so they fabricate charges against Him. When Pilate shows reluctance to do their bidding, they threaten to denounce him to Ceaser. Pilate capitulates and orders his troops to execute Jesus, who dies and is buried.

The Jewish leadership of that time wanted Jesus dead, and manipulated the Roman authorities to do their dirty work for them.

Simple, eh?
 
I assume that Jesus existed, as well ... as a man ... a nice Jewish boy who loved His momma, but perhaps not enough to stay out of trouble with the People Who Run Things. I also assume that much of the four Gospels were distorted, exaggerated, or both.
 
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It seems that if you leave out the mystical mumbo-jumbo, the account of the arrest, incarceration, trial and execution reads like a tabloid story.

Jesus stirs up trouble for the Pharisees, but authoritatively and economically. The Pharisees want Him taken down, so they fabricate charges against Him. When Pilate shows reluctance to do their bidding, they threaten to denounce him to Ceaser. Pilate capitulates and orders his troops to execute Jesus, who dies and is buried.

The Jewish leadership of that time wanted Jesus dead, and manipulated the Roman authorities to do their dirty work for them.

Simple, eh?

Now reverse that story and see who had most to gain from the change
 
If the Rat in the Hat is planning on blaming the Romans, he would do well to consult a map.
 
Now reverse that story and see who had most to gain from the change

The Pharisees and the Romans, of course. They both become the beneficiaries of a cowed populace.

However, it was the Romans that actually carried out the execution.
 
The Pharisees and the Romans, of course. They both become the beneficiaries of a cowed populace.

However, it was the Romans that actually carried out the execution.

What I mean - what if the Pharisees didn't care, or possibly supported Christ - but he some how ticked off the Romans to the point they knock him off

Now how ya gonna sell that story to Roman......See my point?
 
I wonder if he was speaking ex cathedra, or out of his ass (de ani? my latin's rusty. Google says it's right, FWIW)
 
From what I understood from reading the synopsis, it basically comes down to:

Those who executed Jesus were indeed Jews, but that's no reason to blame the whole of the jewish population in eternity for the sins of a few.

Which would make the pope more forgiving than his own god.
 
"how the hell could anyone know?"

"was he there to report on it?"

"why is his reading of the Gospels any better than mine, yours or his?"

If you're the pope, your beliefs regarding scriptures and doctrines is infallible.
 
It seems that if you leave out the mystical mumbo-jumbo, the account of the arrest, incarceration, trial and execution reads like a tabloid story.

Jesus stirs up trouble for the Pharisees, but authoritatively and economically. The Pharisees want Him taken down, so they fabricate charges against Him. When Pilate shows reluctance to do their bidding, they threaten to denounce him to Ceaser. Pilate capitulates and orders his troops to execute Jesus, who dies and is buried.

The Jewish leadership of that time wanted Jesus dead, and manipulated the Roman authorities to do their dirty work for them.

Simple, eh?

One problem is that the Pharisees held no real power with the priestly class at the time. The Sadducees were the group in charge of Temple worship when Jesus would have lived. It's one of the things that tip-off scholars the gospels were probably written after the destruction of the Temple by the Romans in 70 CE. Once the Temple was destroyed, the Sadducees lost all influence and power. The Pharisees survived. They began to decide how Jews should follow the law.

The Jewish/Christian writers of the gospels were trying to convince other Jews that Jesus was the Messiah (exp. Matthew), or trying to convince Romans that Christianity was not a threat (exp. Luke/Acts). They didn't want the ruling Romans thinking Christians held a grudge for killing their leader, it was the nasty ruling class of the Jews!

Historically, Pilate was a no-nonsense ruler. His portrayal in the gospels doesn't "jive" with what Jospheus and Philo had to say about him. He was recalled to Rome after he ordered a large group of Samaritans slaughtered who were traveling to Mount Gerizim. I find it very doubtful that Pilate would have had to had his arm twisted to kill a wandering rabbi talking about the coming Kingdom of God.

If the Romans got wind that Jesus was telling people he was the Messiah and was going to be King of the Jews, well...suddenly he is a threat ( a minor threat at most, but they probably wouldn't take any chances). Plus if Jesus did arrive in Jerusalem during Passover, the Romans would be extra-sensitive to any public disruptions. Thousands of Jews would come flooding into the city for this festival. I'm sure the Romans would want order and obedience (not someone flipping over tables in the courtyard of the Temple, yelling stuff about his dad's house:D).



I beg you, can we please not start this discussion again??:boxedin:
 
Wasn't the whole crucifiction thing part of Godsbigwonderfulplanforallofus(TM) anyway?

I never quite got the bit that somehow God sent his son to die for our sins and yet the people who did the killing were somehow the bad guys.
 
Wasn't the whole crucifiction thing part of Godsbigwonderfulplanforallofus(TM) anyway?

I never quite got the bit that somehow God sent his son to die for our sins and yet the people who did the killing were somehow the bad guys.


C'mon, it's easy:

"How dare you eat fruit I told you not to! That's such a big sin that you're cursed for generation unto generation.....Hmmm, they deserved that but I'm so kind and forgiving I'll give them another chance.... Right, the way to sort this out is to give you the thing most precious to me, my son (who is really me but don't let that confuse you) then you can kill him and that means you're forgiven for disobeying me and eating that fruit!"

See, makes perfect sense! :boggled:

Actually I guess an interpretation of that which does make a primitive sort of sense would be:

"Blimey, now I've calmed down I can see I really over-reacted over that fruit thing. Sorry about that, I was well harsh - especially cursing your children's children who had nothing to do with it. You must be really ticked off with me - tell you what, you must want some revenge so why not kill my son....I mean, he won't really die but it'll make you feel better and then we can be all square again."

Anyway, the real question is, if the sacrifice of Jesus was supposed to absolve us from original sin then how come child birth still smarts a bit?:D
 
C'mon, it's easy:

"How dare you eat fruit I told you not to! That's such a big sin that you're cursed for generation unto generation.....Hmmm, they deserved that but I'm so kind and forgiving I'll give them another chance.... Right, the way to sort this out is to give you the thing most precious to me, my son (who is really me but don't let that confuse you) then you can kill him and that means you're forgiven for disobeying me and eating that fruit!"

See, makes perfect sense! :boggled:

Actually I guess an interpretation of that which does make a primitive sort of sense would be:

"Blimey, now I've calmed down I can see I really over-reacted over that fruit thing. Sorry about that, I was well harsh - especially cursing your children's children who had nothing to do with it. You must be really ticked off with me - tell you what, you must want some revenge so why not kill my son....I mean, he won't really die but it'll make you feel better and then we can be all square again."

Anyway, the real question is, if the sacrifice of Jesus was supposed to absolve us from original sin then how come child birth still smarts a bit?:D

If I didn't have THE FAITH(TM) and know that all of this was true and the word of our Almighty God I might start to think all of this was made up.

At the very least someone has missed out a few important pages when translating this book from the original language.

Incidentally does this announcement mean that God has changed his position on this, or is it just that the Church have decided they were mistaken before? If they misinterpreted this, what else have they messed up?

Are we still sure that God wants little African babies to die of AIDS?
 
Jesus stirs up trouble for the Pharisees, but authoritatively and economically. The Pharisees want Him taken down, so they fabricate charges against Him. When Pilate shows reluctance to do their bidding, they threaten to denounce him to Ceaser. Pilate capitulates and orders his troops to execute Jesus, who dies and is buried.

The Jewish leadership of that time wanted Jesus dead, and manipulated the Roman authorities to do their dirty work for them.

Simple, eh?

Actually, that's more like proof that it's fanfic written by frakking idiots who didn't even know what they were talking about.

The opinions and teachings of Jesus in the Gospels are actually very much in line with the Pharisee doctrine, and his being called a teacher or rabbi is also a Pharisee thing. His going to read the Torah in his hometown is also something the Pharisees did. So if that were true, Jesus would have _been_ a Pharisee.

So why do the gospels insist on pitting him against the Pharisees and making them some kind of supervillain group bent on thwarting him? Simple. Because the Saducees and Essenes had practically gone extinct already aftet the destruction of the temple, and the Pharisees were _the_ dominant Jewish doctrine left. Doubly so abroad. (Nowadays they're the only Jewish doctrine left.)

They were also the group that was big on reading the Tanakh, and could (and did) say "that's BS" when preached some verse taken out of context as some "prophecy" that Jesus "fulfilled".

Basically they were the group that was a pain in the butt for the early Christians, who were essentially preaching that they're _the_ new Judaism. And a pain in the butt when it came to the question, "wait, so if it's consistent with their religion and fulfilling all their prophecies, why aren't those guys converting?"

So they had to be turned into some villain group that were all along just into trying to thwart Jesus at every step.

Some of the gospels which didn't make the cut when they selected what's canonical even went full-tilt into rabid anti-semitism and vilified the whole people.

The ones chosen are actually somewhat more moderate, in the same way the wedge doctrine of creationism is. (I.e., not very.) They're trying to play the "don't listen to your rabbis (Pharisees), join us, they are just blinded by their quest to thwart Jesus, see? And oh, they already debated him and lost, man. They just don't want to admit it. Listen to us, not to them, really" card to the Jews instead of just going for the ol' FU.

It also doesn't help that in the gospels the Pharisees are thwarted only because the authors say so. Almost none of those incidents would have worked that way in a theocracy. (Think going "I can break the Law because I'm God's son" in Iran nowadays and you'll get a good idea how _that_ would have worked in ancient Judaea.) Doubly so against a hostile gang that's determined to find something to get you stoned for. And not the herbal kind of stoned.

It's plain old pieces of invented fanfic to say "Jesus already debated their rabbis and won, they just won't admit it", because the early church badly needed that.
 
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It was the Romans all along! Does this mean it's okay to be anti-Italic?
 
If you're the pope, your beliefs regarding scriptures and doctrines is infallible.

Not really. Unless you actually use the special masonic handshake... err... the special phrasing to invoke the infallibility, then it's still just one scholar's opinion. There have been actually very few pronouncements that are infallible. In fact IIRC, there has been exactly one since the formal definition of papal infallibility, or two if you extend it back by a couple of years. But even ignoring that start date, there are IIRC less than a dozen that fit as ex cathedra (infallible) pronouncements.

And they tend to stick to safe stuff like the assumption of Mary or the immaculate conception of Mary. Try to prove the Pope was wrong about that, eh? :p
 
I never quite got the bit that somehow God sent his son to die for our sins and yet the people who did the killing were somehow the bad guys.

What I want to know is, bad guys or not, how come they weren't absolved of their sin of killing Jesus when Jesus died? Did he die for everybody's sins or not?
 
What I want to know is, bad guys or not, how come they weren't absolved of their sin of killing Jesus when Jesus died? Did he die for everybody's sins or not?

Fair point.

Another quibble. Wasn't Jesus a Jew? Therefore Jesus was to blame for killing himself. Isn't suicide a sin that gets you sent to the bad fire?
 
Wasn't the whole crucifiction thing part of Godsbigwonderfulplanforallofus(TM) anyway?

I never quite got the bit that somehow God sent his son to die for our sins and yet the people who did the killing were somehow the bad guys.

You can't spell "crucifiction" without the word fiction.

OK I know it's "crucifixion". :D
 
However, it was the Romans that actually carried out the execution.

OK, but aside from the aqueduct, roads, medicine, irrigation, wine, civil order, public health, peace, and executing the Messiah, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Anyway, the real question is, if the sacrifice of Jesus was supposed to absolve us from original sin then how come child birth still smarts a bit?:D

If God had meant childbirth to hurt, he wouldn't have given us drugs.
 
It raises these questions. It does not beg them.

That depends on if you believe that dictionaries are proscriptive and that the English language is unchanging, or if you believe that words and phrases mean what people commonly use them to mean, even if that's not how they were originally defined.
 
http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=210480

while I appreciate the Pope's defense of the Jewish people, this does beg the questions:

"how the hell could anyone know?"

"was he there to report on it?"

"why is his reading of the Gospels any better than mine, yours or his?"



..this whole idea that one can read the same 2,000 year old book that's been read by millions and millions of people, and find something new, is just silly.

I've read the Gospels. And its clear that if the history of the Gospels is true, than the Jewish leadership did play some role in Jesus' arrest.

But its just a stupid story book, so who cares.

:)

It's a mix of myth and reality, but no one knows how much. If the Jews were responsible for his death, partly or wholly, then so what? It's no justification for 2,000 years of collective punishment, especially when, according to the Christian bible, he had to die and wanted to die. They should be thanking the Jews who were responsible.
 
Fair point.

Another quibble. Wasn't Jesus a Jew? Therefore Jesus was to blame for killing himself. Isn't suicide a sin that gets you sent to the bad fire?

Well, yes, but if you believe the bit about having to wrest sin from the devil, or whatever reason Jesus was in Hell for in Dante's Divine Comedy, you kinda need to get there first...
 
Heaven's cold and boring. Don't knock that fire, man.

Heaven is hotter than Hell.

In hell there is apparently lake of sulfur, taking some fictional description of it (bible/revelation). That's about 115°C melting point and 450°C boiling point so hell must be between those temperature, assuming a normal pressure (all bet are off if the pressure is different, but pressure is mentioned nowhere , so it is a safe assumption that pressure in hell and heaven is the same as earth).

Heaven on the other hand has something like 7 time the light of 7 day in one day, so using black body law you get about 800°C temperature.

So heaven is hotter than hell , assuming thermodynamic apply.

There is some web page for that somewhere.
 
What I want to know is, bad guys or not, how come they weren't absolved of their sin of killing Jesus when Jesus died? Did he die for everybody's sins or not?


One of the few sensible things that Bishadi said in his numerous posts was that if Jesus died for our sins, but he didn't stay dead, what's the deal?
 

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