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Old 17th November 2011, 09:50 PM   #361
jt512
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[duplicates the following post]

Last edited by jt512; 17th November 2011 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 17th November 2011, 10:55 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Thanks for the overview.

I'll stick with my initial impression:Sounds kind of like debian testing. I may have to fire it up in a VM and give it a whirl, but not so keen on having to learn the syntax of one more different package manager.

I wouldn't let that stop you. About all you have to know is:

# Upgrade the system
pacman -Syu

# Install one or more packages (and its dependencies)
pacman -S <package ... >

# Uninstall one or more packages
pacman -R <package ... >

# Query the repositories for packages whose names include 'string'
pacman -Ss <string>


There are other things you can do with pacman, but those are the most common operations. 'man pacman' concisely tells you everything you'd ever need to know.
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Old 17th November 2011, 11:25 PM   #363
John Albert
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman
Q: An update to package XYZ broke my system!
A: Arch Linux is a rolling-release cutting-edge distribution. Package updates are available as soon as they are deemed stable enough for general use. However, updates sometimes require user intervention: configuration files may need to be updated, optional dependencies may change, etc.

Sounds kind of like debian testing. ;-)

Except that Debian doesn't update their packages until they're at least one or two full versions out of date and nobody is using them anymore.


Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Anyhow, sounds like an interesting distro. If I wasn't already so attached debian, I might look into it.

Aside from being more current then debian (stable) due to rolling release, any other major differences that you think worth pointing out ?

I installed Arch on one of my computers a long time ago. I don't even remember any more exactly why I stopped using it.
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Old 18th November 2011, 01:03 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth View Post
The Mac keyboards that I still have work too, but they aren't really good. Either too small and lacking a bunch of keys, or just a nightmare to type on. Any cheap (PC) stuff is better than what Apple ships with their machines apparantly. Back in the 90ies, when the company was almost dead, this was all different.
I reject your reality, and substitute my own.

The (still) current aluminum Mac keyboards are the best keyboards I've typed on, ever. Both the large wired USB (with number block) and the small wireless. It helps running them with Mac OS X, but they do work fine on PCs, too. And Linux (I know Ubuntu for sure) has maps for them already built in.

I cannot imagine going back to these bulky standard PC keyboards. Or these really old IBM keyboards that feel they came out of an IBM Selectric that some oldsters still swear on. Ugh.
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Old 18th November 2011, 02:23 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
Or these really old IBM keyboards that feel they came out of an IBM Selectric that some oldsters still swear on. Ugh.
Did you just dis the old IBM keyboards? The ones that go "clack!"? You insensitive clod!

I still have a love-on for them. My brother in law recently found one in a stack of old pc's at work. He has it at home now, on his Ubuntu server. He clacks at me and smiles beatifically. I grimace. Me want.
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Old 18th November 2011, 04:54 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Did you just dis the old IBM keyboards? The ones that go "clack!"? You insensitive clod!

I still have a love-on for them. My brother in law recently found one in a stack of old pc's at work. He has it at home now, on his Ubuntu server. He clacks at me and smiles beatifically. I grimace. Me want.


Just to trigger such a response!

If you like them, so be it.

But myself, I'm so used to flat low-travel keyboards like the aluminum Apples that I find the old clickies just clunky.
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Old 18th November 2011, 05:15 AM   #367
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Ha, all in fun of course!
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Old 18th November 2011, 05:39 AM   #368
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My brother in law runs a youth centre. He's a social worker.
They run Linux on the systems there as there is no money for software licences.

I was wondering:

The school my kids go to, has quite a few computers.
There is a classroom full of them, for computer lessons and every classroom has a smartboard.
That's essentially a whiteboard with a beamer attached, hooked up to a PC.

Could such a school save a significant amount of money, switching to Linux?
They run Windows XP now.

Or is that a run race, as they already own the software?
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Old 18th November 2011, 06:02 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Or is that a run race, as they already own the software?
I think you suspect the answer will be mixed. Yeah .. no ... maybe.

Yes, the money has been handed-over to Windows. That's done.
New machines? Savings could be had; it depends on quantity and what kind of software the kids are being taught to use.

The momentum to stay with what you know is huge. To shift to a new O/S and all that brings is a big ask.
Even I, who use and love Linux, am stuck in a Debian-Ubuntu related distro momentum. It's too scary to picture shifting away from what I know (like going to RPM land in Arch/Fedora ville).

I think it (the issues) should be less about the money and more about the idea behind free and open software (fropen - my word).
In a way I think of fropen source as being skepticism and closed source as being woo :
fropen is open, challengeable, visible, thoughtful, engaging, fun, etc.
closed is closed, hidden, accepted, dogmatic, revelation-based, branded, etc. It's the default and that is like woo.

Methinks I ramble
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Old 18th November 2011, 09:16 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
Except that Debian doesn't update their packages until they're at least one or two full versions out of date and nobody is using them anymore.
Debian stable is getting better. It used to really behind, now is only sort of behind. And Ubuntu takes care of that if you don't want to use stock debian. Or, just use testing and some apt-pinning. Testing is completely usable on a day-to-day basis.

Anyhow, I wasn't to familiar with arch, so I've learned something and may look into it, so thanks to all for that.
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Old 18th November 2011, 09:17 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Did you just dis the old IBM keyboards? The ones that go "clack!"? You insensitive clod!

I still have a love-on for them. My brother in law recently found one in a stack of old pc's at work. He has it at home now, on his Ubuntu server. He clacks at me and smiles beatifically. I grimace. Me want.
Replying on my model M. Love it :-)
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Old 18th November 2011, 09:48 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Replying on my model M. Love it :-)
(my Genius cheapo... so not worthy.)
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Old 18th November 2011, 03:37 PM   #373
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I imagine "man pacman" is the Bond-like way Pacman introduces himself.

That school won't stay with XP forever. I'd suggest looking into the alternatives. Edubuntu, for example.
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Old 19th November 2011, 09:06 PM   #374
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Hi! sorry to hijack this thread, but it seems like a better place to ask rather than start a new one

I recently downloaded the Commodore OS Vision and wondered if it would be possible to have both this OS and windows 7 on my machine, but rather than disrupt my existing OS what I was thinking was that I could unhook my main drive (windows) install the Linux OS on my second hard drive (used to keep media on) and choose which drive to boot from in the start up menu, the theory being that I won't have to mess about with a new install of windows 7?

Thanks in advance!
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Old 20th November 2011, 12:06 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Emerson Street View Post
I recently downloaded the Commodore OS Vision and wondered if it would be possible to have both this OS and windows 7 on my machine, but rather than disrupt my existing OS what I was thinking was that I could unhook my main drive (windows) install the Linux OS on my second hard drive (used to keep media on) and choose which drive to boot from in the start up menu, the theory being that I won't have to mess about with a new install of windows 7?
I don't see why you couldn't have a dual boot setup with the two OSs on separate drives. I don't know what you mean by "unhook your main drive." No "unhooking" that I can think of should be necessary. Give your Linux drive boot priority over your Windows drive in your BIOS settings. Then, after installing Linux, configure GRUB, the Linux boot manager, to provide menu options at start-up to boot into Linux or Windows.
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Old 20th November 2011, 01:39 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
I don't see why you couldn't have a dual boot setup with the two OSs on separate drives. I don't know what you mean by "unhook your main drive." No "unhooking" that I can think of should be necessary. Give your Linux drive boot priority over your Windows drive in your BIOS settings. Then, after installing Linux, configure GRUB, the Linux boot manager, to provide menu options at start-up to boot into Linux or Windows.
I meant as in disconnecting it, so there appears to be only one drive on the system, what would normally be my secondary drive would become the main system volume. The reason I am a little hesitant is that I tried to do something similar with my old copy of XP and windows 7 did not like it, in fact it took it's ball and went home.
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Old 20th November 2011, 02:06 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Emerson Street View Post
I meant as in disconnecting it, so there appears to be only one drive on the system, what would normally be my secondary drive would become the main system volume. The reason I am a little hesitant is that I tried to do something similar with my old copy of XP and windows 7 did not like it, in fact it took it's ball and went home.
There should be no reason to physically disconnect your Windows disk to boot into Linux. As far as I am aware, most people with Linux/Windows dual boot setups (including me) use the Linux boot manager, GRUB, for selecting which OS to boot into. If you're going to install Linux on a separate drive from Windows, then you have to adjust your BIOS settings to give the Linux drive boot priority over Windows. Then, all you need to do is to put an entry into your GRUB boot menu configuration file for your Windows OS. There are many guides on the Web explaining how to do this.

For Windows Vista and Windows 7, it is supposedly possible to use Windows BOOTMGR for selecting which OS to boot into, but I've never heard of anyone actually doing it, and it sounds to me like putting the inmates in charge of the asylum, or, at least, just another good way to break Windows.
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Old 20th November 2011, 02:39 AM   #378
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*Untested*
If your BIOS is advanced enough, it should allow you to boot off an external USB drive. If you set the boot order to include that drive FIRST then you might get what you want:
1. USB in: whatever o/s is on there gets booted.
2. USB not in/off : Next drive in line gets booted.

hth
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Old 20th November 2011, 02:33 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
There should be no reason to physically disconnect your Windows disk to boot into Linux. As far as I am aware, most people with Linux/Windows dual boot setups (including me) use the Linux boot manager, GRUB, for selecting which OS to boot into. If you're going to install Linux on a separate drive from Windows, then you have to adjust your BIOS settings to give the Linux drive boot priority over Windows. Then, all you need to do is to put an entry into your GRUB boot menu configuration file for your Windows OS. There are many guides on the Web explaining how to do this.

For Windows Vista and Windows 7, it is supposedly possible to use Windows BOOTMGR for selecting which OS to boot into, but I've never heard of anyone actually doing it, and it sounds to me like putting the inmates in charge of the asylum, or, at least, just another good way to break Windows.
grub works fine for dual booting or you can run virtual box and run either under emulation within the other.

I run server 2003 within Ubuntu

and backtrack5 within windows seven, or you can modify the latest hiren's menu and have damn small linux boot through a bootable usb stick as another alternative
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Old 2nd January 2012, 03:39 PM   #380
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RANT!

I've just read up on a but of Ubuntu information, and I've discovered that they have stopped including Synaptic in the distro.

Now, I don't care that it's still available in the repositories. This shift is indicative of a shift which had been happening for some time now, and which I had been trivialising at the time.

The shift toward even less ability to customise out of the box, which means that Ubuntu is even less of an all-round distro as it already was.

Well, I won't stand for it any more. I'm moving to LMDE (Linux Mind Debian Edition) as soon as I know whether Synaptic has or hasn't been included again with the new release of Ubuntu (as has happened with Rhythmbox).

Will this affect Ubuntu itself? No.



tl;dr

Ubuntu is excluding synaptic, and I'm miffed.
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Old 2nd January 2012, 08:17 PM   #381
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Emerson Street, if I were you, I'd get an external backup drive, make an image of my windows system (verify the backup) and then try what you propose. Personally, I'd find it a pain in the neck having to go into the BIOS to choose the hard disk to boot from. I haven't had any trouble with debian installing grub and picking up windows 7 in the grub menu, but I have had issues with other distributions, and Windows 7 does get its knickers in a twist when XP wouldn't have, so I think you're right to be cautious.

If you've got a backup to restore, you can experiment and not worry about things going screwy on you.
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Old 3rd January 2012, 05:31 AM   #382
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Doesn't Ubuntu have it's own 'Software Center' thing these days? It's all kind of moot since the back end is 'aptitude' (or apt-get) for most of these things.

I just use aptitude on the cli. I don't recall the last time I ran Synaptic*.

Oh, and I use Mint. Ubuntu is losing the plot with Unity methinks.


* Always made me think of synapse + tic == nervous tic in the brain! Not encouraging
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Old 3rd January 2012, 07:55 AM   #383
Bram Kaandorp
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Doesn't Ubuntu have it's own 'Software Center' thing these days? It's all kind of moot since the back end is 'aptitude' (or apt-get) for most of these things.

I just use aptitude on the cli. I don't recall the last time I ran Synaptic*.

Oh, and I use Mint. Ubuntu is losing the plot with Unity methinks.


* Always made me think of synapse + tic == nervous tic in the brain! Not encouraging
I use the Synaptic package manager (yes, that's what I was talking about) to install and uninstall specific packages.

When uninstalling with the software centre, certain packages stay behind, clogging up the works, so to speak.

Oh, and Unity is also a big factor in my considerations, but that's old news.
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Old 3rd January 2012, 08:05 AM   #384
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I am pretty darn sure that Ubuntu will always have something like Synaptic in it, so I wouldn't worry about it. Perhaps the new Software center will be easier to use.
If you are worried about the bits and bytes of packages etc. then you need to be on the command line (cli) anyway - so then use apt-get and apt-cache and company. (Or, as I mentioned, use 'aptitude'.)

Synaptic may be using older libraries that Ubuntu is moving away from. I know this is a 'problem' in the Linux world as things evolve and splinter it's hard to keep software stable. My own floss software is getting long-in-the-tooth and I fear I won't have the energy to keep it current. (Just a hypothesis.)
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Old 3rd January 2012, 08:42 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
I am pretty darn sure that Ubuntu will always have something like Synaptic in it, so I wouldn't worry about it. Perhaps the new Software center will be easier to use.
If you are worried about the bits and bytes of packages etc. then you need to be on the command line (cli) anyway - so then use apt-get and apt-cache and company. (Or, as I mentioned, use 'aptitude'.)

Synaptic may be using older libraries that Ubuntu is moving away from. I know this is a 'problem' in the Linux world as things evolve and splinter it's hard to keep software stable. My own floss software is getting long-in-the-tooth and I fear I won't have the energy to keep it current. (Just a hypothesis.)
That could be it. If it is, then they'd better make the Software Center with the inclusion of the ability to remove residual packages. I use the CLI plenty, but when browsing packages, a GUI just has its advantages.
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Old 3rd January 2012, 08:50 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Did you just dis the old IBM keyboards? The ones that go "clack!"? You insensitive clod!

I still have a love-on for them. My brother in law recently found one in a stack of old pc's at work. He has it at home now, on his Ubuntu server. He clacks at me and smiles beatifically. I grimace. Me want.
I can remember seeing 'keyboard repairs' adverts in mags like 'Creative Computing' and "Compute!"

Considering that you could bludgeon somebody with oldskool IBM keyboards, wipe off the blood and get back to work, I wonder, aside from coffee accidents, could possibly damage them!
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Old 3rd January 2012, 09:00 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by BaaBaa View Post
I wonder[what], aside from coffee accidents, could possibly damage them!
'Clack' acute persons within ear shot + your head
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Old 3rd January 2012, 12:23 PM   #388
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'Stop that friggin' clacking!"

"But I'm hacking eBay for your birthday present..."

"Oh. Ok, then. As you were."
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Old 3rd January 2012, 01:07 PM   #389
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I am on Fedora 16 now after giving Crunchbang a try. Crunchbang gave a significant performance boost with video playback on my netbook. I decided to try it our when I found Pardus struggling badly with a HD video file, as well as stuttering a fair bit with YouTube vids. Crunchbang was spartan but solid. I may well return but playing with different distros is an addiction.

Fedora is a different experience than I remember from a couple of years ago. It's interesting not having minimize and maximize buttons on native windows but its training me into new working habits. I haven't tested out the hefty video file but I suspect it will have similar problems to Pardus.
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Old 7th January 2012, 08:04 AM   #390
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RANT! Right, that's it. Gnome is almost as good as dead to me.

I just installed Ubuntu 11.10 yesterday, to see how good it was, in order to find out whether I would make the jump to 12.04 when it comes out.

I installed Gnome 3 immediately, because Unity (which will not be mentioned hereafter) doesn't do it for me. Maybe I'll try it later on, but I wanted to try the new and improved Gnome first. I'd been dying to get it out for a test drive, and this was my moment.

After a fairly shaky start (I accidentally didn't take the .gnote folder with me, losing all my notes in the process (I copied the .gnome2 folder in stead, stupid me)), I found my footing in Gnome shell.

Things went okay, until I wanted to start my usual array of background programs, which resided in the notification area in gnome 2.x. Imagine my surprise when they didn't do that. In stead, I had to go search for the notification area, finding out that it's hidden from sight in the lower right hand corner. Are they crazy? It's a notification area, not a nothing to see here area.
Add to that the annoying fact that when you hover over an icon it folds out to show the name of the program. I am not an idiot. If I hover over anything, a tag with the name of it shows up, and since that functionality is not gone, having the name show up twice merely furthers my annoyance. Sure it means that in emsene you have a history function when you click the text, but I really don't care about that. When I use a notification area, I just want to hover over, click the icon and show the window. I don't want to hover over the icon, wait until the text rolls out, and THEN move to the icon again (because it moves to the left to accommodate the text) and THEN click to show the window.

Another thing is the absence of a window list. Sure, they have the slick dash, but you can's access the dash from the window in which you're working. Oh, no. They make you go to the upper left hand corner to do that.
I want to change to a new window with the click of the mouse, and not via a mouse movement. No, Alt-Tab is not a good alternative, because it means that, before I can select the program I want to use, I first have to use a keyboard command, royally ruining any work-flow I still had.

That brings me nicely to the hierarchical drop-down menu for selecting programs.
What's that you say? There is no hierarchical drop-down menu for selecting programs? Well, that's just it. I want such a menu.

As if that's not enough, I can't add any applets to the panel by myself. I can't change the place of the panel, and I can't add any other panels. I can't even change the colour or background image.
I guess user customisation isn't as needed as I thought it was.

Extensions are available, sure. But when I enabled the "Bottom Pane" extension, it hid the notification area, which doesn't move above the panel.
And when I enabled the "application menu", it had categories you had to open by clicking, and not by hovering, adding to the annoyance on another level.
In short, extensions aren't real fixes of all problems, they are merely ways to feel like you're not completely powerless.


Gnome wanted to make things more integrated, but they decided to de-emphasise the user in the process.

And if that makes me sound like a cry-baby who doesn't get what he's used to, then so be it. I mean, I have a lot of programs that are Gnome dependent, and moving to KDE or XFCE (or even Lxde) wouldn't solve the problem. Trust me, I've looked at all three.

Before Gnome Shell, I just went on with things. Now, I habitually walk into walls with things I want to do.

If anyone knows of a good Gnome alternative (as in, fork) that is usable already, don't hesitate to let me know.
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Old 7th January 2012, 08:20 AM   #391
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Gnome 3 terrifies me. I am still on Mint ...um ... something point something .. jeez .. maybe two years old now? I will need to jump to something modern soon and I am just ... nervous.

Stop posting such horrible stories! You make meh unhappeh
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Old 7th January 2012, 08:25 AM   #392
Bram Kaandorp
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Gnome 3 terrifies me. I am still on Mint ...um ... something point something .. jeez .. maybe two years old now? I will need to jump to something modern soon and I am just ... nervous.

Stop posting such horrible stories! You make meh unhappeh
You know what they say about warned people, right?

On a more positive note, the extensions aren't nearly as bad as I'd thought. They aren't a sufficient fix to keep me completely, but they're good enough to hold me until I've found a better alternative.
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Old 7th January 2012, 08:36 AM   #393
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Something is annoying me about Gnome 3 and Fedora 16 is that it wants me to put my laptop into suspend mode while I prefer a full power down. I don't think I should have to get under the hood to fix that sort of thing. Fedora is not gong to last much longer on this system.
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Old 7th January 2012, 08:40 AM   #394
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True. I am duly warned.

I was around for the KDE 3 to 4 fiasco. Oh the pain. That's when I jumped to Gnome. I could have lived with KDE 4 but so much stuff was broken. Crashes, rects on the screen dumping random bytes, old beloved apps totally hobbled. It was awful.

Sounds like the same has come for Gnome. Did Micro$oft get moles into the works?

Ah well, boo hoo. Am sure I will adjust.

I *think* the current release of Mint uses Gnome 2 still, so that will carry me a few years. Maybe past the rough seas of early versions.

On the gnome/gtk apps in <other> desktop issue: it's been my experience that these things generally work. Just install the relevant libs (which apt will do) and you probably won't notice beyond oddball style shifts.

Only the Gnote front. Hey baby! I use that too. I shun mono and was so happy to see Tomboy redone in something native.
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Old 7th January 2012, 09:54 AM   #395
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I'm curious, given all the animosity I read toward Unity and Gnome 3, why I'm not seeing more commentary being given to KDE.

I like KDE. I soured on Gnome way back in Red Hat Linux 5 (that was before Fedora Core restarted the numbering at 1 again, and Fedora is now up to 16) when its internet dialing tool didn't work. I tried the one in KDE and it worked flawlessly the first time. I've been using KDE ever since.

I find it flexible, configurable, easy to use, and with lots of little things that make my life easier. For example I like to use Alt-Tab to switch windows. As I press the tab key to go to the next window, the border of the window in question is highlighted. That means I can look at the window I want to switch to, even if it's on a different monitor, and press Alt-Tab until I see the border highlighted.

Something I don't see with KDE is this idea of "let's just throw out everything we've done in the past an implement a whole new way of doing things." The changes in KDE are much more incremental. KDE 4 is in many ways quite different from KDE 1, but because the changes were evolutionary instead of revolutionary the "WTF?!" moments are radically reduced in number.
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Old 7th January 2012, 10:08 AM   #396
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I also started on Redhat 5. Free CD from a nascent brother in law.

KDE was my desktop for years. I would have stayed there but, as mentioned, KDE4 just did not work on my pc. It was too hacky when it came out, plus I think my 3D card is now too old for anyone to care about. This is why I am worried about Unity/Gnome3 and KDE4 - I can't afford new hardware willy nilly.
I was on Kubuntu at the time, jumped to Ubuntu and thence to Mint.

My fave KDE apps were Konqueror (the best file manager ever) and Kmail. The Konsole was also superior to anything I have seen in gnome land. The desktop was better than Gnome 2.
In vers 4 (kubuntu distro), both Konqueror and Kmail were badly gutted and hobbled; that shocked me. I left KDEville soon after.

I guess it's chance and reaction. I don't think any of the desktops are significantly superior. Maybe Gnome2 will surprise me.
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Old 7th January 2012, 10:10 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I'm curious, given all the animosity I read toward Unity and Gnome 3, why I'm not seeing more commentary being given to KDE.

I like KDE. I soured on Gnome way back in Red Hat Linux 5 (that was before Fedora Core restarted the numbering at 1 again, and Fedora is now up to 16) when its internet dialing tool didn't work. I tried the one in KDE and it worked flawlessly the first time. I've been using KDE ever since.

I find it flexible, configurable, easy to use, and with lots of little things that make my life easier. For example I like to use Alt-Tab to switch windows. As I press the tab key to go to the next window, the border of the window in question is highlighted. That means I can look at the window I want to switch to, even if it's on a different monitor, and press Alt-Tab until I see the border highlighted.

Something I don't see with KDE is this idea of "let's just throw out everything we've done in the past an implement a whole new way of doing things." The changes in KDE are much more incremental. KDE 4 is in many ways quite different from KDE 1, but because the changes were evolutionary instead of revolutionary the "WTF?!" moments are radically reduced in number.
Have you been living in a cave? There was an immense falling out over how buggy KDE 4 was.

But you're right though. Incremental really is the way to go. I can still remember when I switched from Firefox 2 to 3 (I was using Windows at the time I think). Boy, that was a change.


You know what, if I can find adequate KDE 4 alternatives for many of the Gnome dependent programs I use, I might switch to that after all. It can't be worse than Gnome 3. Right? I mean, does KDE still give the user all freedom to change things?
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Old 7th January 2012, 10:28 AM   #398
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Screw Gnome and KDE. Xmonad for the win.
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Old 7th January 2012, 10:47 AM   #399
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A Haskell-driven WM? Ouch. I bow to your brain... as I shudder.

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Old 7th January 2012, 10:54 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
A Haskell-driven WM? Ouch. I bow to your brain... as I shudder.

Not knowing what Haskell is, but having seen the screen-shots and videos on their home page, I concur.
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