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Old 15th November 2011, 09:01 AM   #321
Donn
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Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth View Post
You should have gotten a Mac way back when.
Ooohh — my Jedi powers can feel a flame war brewing.
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Old 15th November 2011, 09:09 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Ooohh — my Jedi powers can feel a flame war brewing.
Not really. I reserve those for the Ubuntu forum. Not that I am all that active there, but I have been in the middle of a flame war before. Pretty intense, and I went away from them pretty fast.
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Old 15th November 2011, 09:11 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp View Post
Not open enough.
I meant, a Mac way back when and then switched to Linux, of course.
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Old 15th November 2011, 09:13 AM   #324
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Ha ha. Good move! +1 Flame dodge.
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Old 15th November 2011, 09:20 AM   #325
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I gotta say - on the mac thing - that O/S borrows so much from open source and has so much in common with Linux that I can't find any distinguishing character that would make me part with so much money for their products.

With Linux I can use cheap hardware and I get a free O/S which I can upgrade as I need (free of charge).

In a nutshell, I think I would suffer buyer's remorse if I bought a shiny new Mac.
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Old 15th November 2011, 09:26 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth View Post
I meant, a Mac way back when and then switched to Linux, of course.
Then again, Mac is more expensive than getting someone to build a simple computer with illegal Windows.

But those days are long behind me now, and I wouldn't think of using Windows at home, not even if it was legal AND without cost.
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Old 15th November 2011, 09:28 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
I don't listen to podcasts (can't avoid falling asleep, I'm weird) so I have not looked. I use Thunderbird for mail as well as RSS (some RSS I just make bookmarks in Firefox - i.e. subscribe to a feed) and that works well.


Baby steps Padawan. It takes magnificent power to forget how to use Winders. I am such a Jedi. Modesty forbids me from further self-praise.
Yeah, no. That would just add another program, because podcasts aren't handled all that well by Thunderbird.

Add to that the fact that I prefer web-based mail.

If only there was a combination of Gpodder and Songbird, with full support for Linux.

But, since Songbird has ceased support for Linux, I'm left waiting for Nightingale. A long wait, I can imagine.
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Old 15th November 2011, 09:53 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Not sure if this thread has touched on it but of things non-ascii Linux has a super system to enter characters. It's really natural and flows with one's typing.

Setup your 'compose key' (however your desktop let's you) to something like right-Alt and then you can do:

ä = compose, double-quote, a (all individual presses, not simultaneous)
è = compose, `, e
— = compose, - three times (minus key, press thrice)
© = compose, c, O (capital o)

I hope those came out ok.

I am sure there are more - what are your tips?
ö, ä, ü are not a real problem for me. I have keys for that.
é, è and ê aren't either, I have keys for the accents and put them over the letters in deadkey-fashion (i.e. type ' and nothing seems to happen, but when you type an e after that you get é)

Originally Posted by Donn View Post
I am sure there are more - what are your tips?
I am not sure I could give any real good tips. For one, because the key designations are all kind of Greek to me. There's super, meta, right-alt, left-alt, win and ... oh, it is all very murky. And KDE's keyboard configuration isn't that much help either. Sure, there are lots of options, but it is all quite messy. "Put meta on left alt", "Make win-key the third level choser", "the button to start thermonuclear war is space" and so on. Another thing is that I am using a German Macintosh layout with deadkeys, so I figure it works totally different from what you have.
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Old 15th November 2011, 10:01 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth View Post
I have keys for that.
You stole a Mac meme.

Quote:
I have keys for the accents and put them over the letters in deadkey-fashion (i.e. type ' and nothing seems to happen, but when you type an e after that you get é)
But how do you get a ' alone when you want one? Like you just did.

Quote:
key designations are all kind of Greek to me.
Ha, join the club!

Quote:
"Put meta on left alt", "Make win-key the third level choser", "the button to start thermonuclear war is space" and so on.
I lolled. It's all so true.

Quote:
Another thing is that I am using a German Macintosh layout with deadkeys, so I figure it works totally different from what you have.
That's another wonder of Linux isn't it? It runs on and with just about anything!
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Old 15th November 2011, 10:17 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
You stole a Mac meme.

But how do you get a ' alone when you want one? Like you just did.
' and then Space

Originally Posted by Donn View Post
That's another wonder of Linux isn't it? It runs on and with just about anything!
Oh make no mistake, I am running a thoroughbred PC. I am just using the Mac keyboard layout, because I happen to be more familiar with that. (That it differs from PC keyboard layouts goes without saying. How could it be any different?)

The Mac keyboards that I still have work too, but they aren't really good. Either too small and lacking a bunch of keys, or just a nightmare to type on. Any cheap (PC) stuff is better than what Apple ships with their machines apparantly. Back in the 90ies, when the company was almost dead, this was all different.

Last edited by Lord Emsworth; 15th November 2011 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 15th November 2011, 10:23 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth View Post
' and then Space
D'oh!


Quote:
Any cheap (PC) stuff is better than what Apple ships with their machines apparantly.
Wild, never heard that.
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Old 15th November 2011, 02:20 PM   #332
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How do you guys deal with email alerts? I use Hotmail and Gmail but after having a go with the Kmail client, I think I would rather just access the respective websites directly. I would however like to get incoming mail alerts like the Windows Live app gave me. I know there are some apps that watch for webpage changes that might do the trick. Any advice for a KDE distro (Pardus) user?
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Old 15th November 2011, 02:28 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
How do you guys deal with email alerts? I use Hotmail and Gmail but after having a go with the Kmail client, I think I would rather just access the respective websites directly. I would however like to get incoming mail alerts like the Windows Live app gave me. I know there are some apps that watch for webpage changes that might do the trick. Any advice for a KDE distro (Pardus) user?
Since I use Hotmail, I get my notifications through Emesene (a WLM client for Linux), and I know that there are several WLM clients for KDE, if you also use Hotmail.

Other than that, I wouldn't know.
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Old 15th November 2011, 03:18 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
I don't listen to podcasts (can't avoid falling asleep, I'm weird) so I have not looked. I use Thunderbird for mail as well as RSS (some RSS I just make bookmarks in Firefox - i.e. subscribe to a feed) and that works well.

I seldom listen to podcasts on my computer. I've use the DoggCatcher RSS feed aggregator on my phone for podcast listening.

I use the Liferea RSS aggregator to collect news articles and video podcasts for viewing on my desktop.


Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Baby steps Padawan. It takes magnificent power to forget how to use Winders. I am such a Jedi. Modesty forbids me from further self-praise.

I don't see the advantage in "forgetting" how to use Windows. I try to make it a point to stay up on all 3 major platforms. Why would you ever want to get to the point where you can't walk up to any computer anywhere and be able to operate it proficiently?
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Last edited by John Albert; 15th November 2011 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 15th November 2011, 04:19 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
I seldom listen to podcasts on my computer. I've use the DoggCatcher RSS feed aggregator on my phone for podcast listening.
I, on the other hand, mainly listen to podcasts on my computer. An added bonus is that synchronizing with my mp3 player is easier.

I do see the advantage of downloading to a phone directly, were it not that I don't delete all podcasts after listening (especially audio dramas).

Quote:
I don't see the advantage in "forgetting" how to use Windows. I try to make it a point to stay up on all 3 major platforms. Why would you ever want to get to the point where you can't walk up to any computer anywhere and be able to operate it proficiently?
Well, I wasn't really serious. It's a bit like someone who doesn't want to drive a specific type of car, or someone who hates a certain band, and then prides him/herself in not knowing about it.

It's fairly obvious that knowing Windows is helpful, especially if it's the only OS available at work.

Just having a bit of fun.
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Old 15th November 2011, 10:54 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
I don't see the advantage in "forgetting" how to use Windows. .. Why would you ever want to get to the point where you can't walk up to any computer anywhere and be able to operate it proficiently?
A mixture of hyperbole, geography and income.

I don't encounter Windows where I live.
I don't have trouble with various (distant) jobs because Open Office, Web work and Python (etc.) make the O/S go away.
I don't have the spare change to buy Winders.

Put that all together and boast (with a secret wince) about it.

Sorted.
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Old 15th November 2011, 11:05 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
How do you guys deal with email alerts?
I found some stuff:
http://www.kbiff.org
http://gnubiff.sourceforge.net/
And an outlier:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/kshowmail/

The 'biffs' where in my distro's repo, so give that a go before heading for some website and trying to install from there.

IIRC, you give biff the specs (gmail or whatever) and it watches and alerts. Should work, I hope.
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Old 16th November 2011, 02:01 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp View Post

I'm still finding stuff that intrigues me, and I still find things which I want to work on (such as finding a good rolling release distro with a wide array of programs available).

Arch?
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Old 16th November 2011, 02:05 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
Arch?
Might be worth looking into. How good is the updating system?

As an aside, I'm also considering Fuduntu, but it is still very new (relative to Ubuntu and even Linux Mint), so the availability of software might be a bit limited.
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Old 16th November 2011, 02:10 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
How do you guys deal with email alerts?
I use GnuBiff. The cleverly named "Mail-notification" is another option.
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Old 16th November 2011, 02:13 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp View Post
Might be worth looking into. How good is the updating system?
It uses Pacman for package management, which is probably the best package manager in existence. Extremely tight dependency control.
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Old 16th November 2011, 02:45 PM   #342
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WRT rolling realeases

There is also openSuSE Tumbleweed. There is a good number of software (at least for standard openSuSE), and package management via zypper/YaST is good. It is relatively new, though.

Last edited by Lord Emsworth; 16th November 2011 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 16th November 2011, 02:55 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth View Post
WRT rolling realeases

There is also openSuSE Tumbleweed. There is a good number of software (at least for standard openSuSE), and package management via zypper/YaST is good. It is relatively new, though.
Another one for the list. Thanks.
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Old 16th November 2011, 03:19 PM   #344
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I've never used Rawhide, but it's like Tumbleweed, except for Fedora.

There's also Linux Mint Debian Edition. A new version came out a month or two ago so there won't be much to update making now the time to jump into that.

Also, opensuse 12.1 is out.
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Old 16th November 2011, 03:26 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Alan View Post
I've never used Rawhide, but it's like Tumbleweed, except for Fedora.

There's also Linux Mint Debian Edition. A new version came out a month or two ago so there won't be much to update making now the time to jump into that.

Also, opensuse 12.1 is out.
Google says (or rather, wikipedia says) that Rawhide is the development tree of Fedora. Not really a rolling release, since it isn't meant as a stable distro.

Good info though. Ubuntu support forum, eat your heart out.
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Old 16th November 2011, 03:32 PM   #346
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By the way, wrt a feed reader:

I completely overlooked what was so abundantly clear that I overlooked it... wait, that went wrong.

Any way, after doing some stunting in Liferea, I found out that double-clicking the enclosure downloads it to a specific (and easily specified) folder. One folder without subdivision for the different feeds, but that isn't a problem, since I place the files in different folders any way.

Not that my search for a good combo has stopped, but for the moment I have a so-rtof-lution.
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Old 17th November 2011, 12:14 AM   #347
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What is a rolling release? I can guess, but you seem to have a specific meaning.

I find I install (/home on a sep partition, so it all mostly carries-on) by 'wipe and start again' from iso files I burn to disk. I upgrade maybe once every two or three years. Sometimes I jump clear away from a distro like from Fedora to Ubuntu.
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Old 17th November 2011, 12:31 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
What is a rolling release? I can guess, but you seem to have a specific meaning.

I find I install (/home on a sep partition, so it all mostly carries-on) by 'wipe and start again' from iso files I burn to disk. I upgrade maybe once every two or three years. Sometimes I jump clear away from a distro like from Fedora to Ubuntu.

A distro with a rolling release model releases upgrades to individual packages as they become available. This contrasts with distros using the standard release model, where upgrades to individual packages are accumulated and eventually packaged into an upgrade of the complete distribution. An example of the latter is Fedora, which releases a complete system upgrade every six months, with attendant increments to the Fedora version number: Fedora 6, Fedora 7, etc.

In contrast, Arch, which employs the rolling release model, issues upgrades to specific packages every day. The result is that Arch is continuously upgraded, and so there is no such thing as Arch version number X.

Jay

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Old 17th November 2011, 01:05 AM   #349
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Re rolling releases. Thanks, I had not heard of that.

What happens when a single update in some library breaks a bunch of stuff?
It sounds like testing each 'roll' before rolling it out might be close to impossible since people have different apps installed in differing combinations and on differing hardware.

Tricky stuff.
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Old 17th November 2011, 01:44 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp View Post
I'm also considering Fuduntu, but it is still very new (relative to Ubuntu and even Linux Mint), so the availability of software might be a bit limited.



It's Linux. It will run any and all software that any other distro will run, provided you have all the dependencies covered.
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Old 17th November 2011, 04:15 AM   #351
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My objections to linux is that I can't get it to run an internet dongle and "Nem Id" the security login for my bank and public offices.

That means that I have to reboot from Ubuntu to windows to see my bank account or get on the net when away from home.
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Old 17th November 2011, 06:00 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post


It's Linux. It will run any and all software that any other distro will run, provided you have all the dependencies covered.
I should have clarified that, of course. I hate having to update programs by hand, so dependencies are an absolute must for me.
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Old 17th November 2011, 10:42 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Re rolling releases. Thanks, I had not heard of that.

What happens when a single update in some library breaks a bunch of stuff?
It sounds like testing each 'roll' before rolling it out might be close to impossible since people have different apps installed in differing combinations and on differing hardware.
Arch's database of dependencies is rock solid. If a new libxyz is released, then they rebuild all the packages that use libxyz and release upgrades of them along with libxyz. For major upgrades, they first release the upgraded packages to a Testing repository, for users running the testing version of Arch. They work the bugs out there before releasing it to the full user base.
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Old 17th November 2011, 11:41 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
Arch's database of dependencies is rock solid. If a new libxyz is released, then they rebuild all the packages that use libxyz and release upgrades of them along with libxyz. For major upgrades, they first release the upgraded packages to a Testing repository, for users running the testing version of Arch. They work the bugs out there before releasing it to the full user base.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman
Q: An update to package XYZ broke my system!
A: Arch Linux is a rolling-release cutting-edge distribution. Package updates are available as soon as they are deemed stable enough for general use. However, updates sometimes require user intervention: configuration files may need to be updated, optional dependencies may change, etc.

Sounds kind of like debian testing. ;-)

Anyhow, sounds like an interesting distro. If I wasn't already so attached debian, I might look into it.

Aside from being more current then debian (stable) due to rolling release, any other major differences that you think worth pointing out ?
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Old 17th November 2011, 11:46 AM   #355
Bram Kaandorp
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman
Q: An update to package XYZ broke my system!
A: Arch Linux is a rolling-release cutting-edge distribution. Package updates are available as soon as they are deemed stable enough for general use. However, updates sometimes require user intervention: configuration files may need to be updated, optional dependencies may change, etc.

Sounds kind of like debian testing. ;-)

Anyhow, sounds like an interesting distro. If I wasn't already so attached debian, I might look into it.

Aside from being more current then debian (stable) due to rolling release, any other major differences that you think worth pointing out ?
I've read good things about Linux Mint Debian Edition [LMDE] (yes, based on Debian, so a good transition).

I don't know how large the differences between Debian and LMDE are (or between LMDE and Ubuntu in my case), but I can imagine that the apt system would be the same.
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Old 17th November 2011, 12:51 PM   #356
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Pardus has an extension to its package manager called Pisiyap that seems to take all the messing around out of compiling and installing apps that are not found in the repositories.

It is rather torturously explained through thirty minutes of on screen typing by someone I suspect shy of their spoken English in this YT video:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


If I stick with this distro as it seems I will, I probably should give something back by helping out with the English wiki entries.
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Old 17th November 2011, 01:09 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman
Q: An update to package XYZ broke my system!
A: Arch Linux is a rolling-release cutting-edge distribution. Package updates are available as soon as they are deemed stable enough for general use. However, updates sometimes require user intervention: configuration files may need to be updated, optional dependencies may change, etc.

Sounds kind of like debian testing. ;-)

Anyhow, sounds like an interesting distro. If I wasn't already so attached debian, I might look into it.

Aside from being more current then debian (stable) due to rolling release, any other major differences that you think worth pointing out ?
I'm not familiar enough with Debian to compare it with Arch. The main features of Arch are that it is bleeding edge, clean and simple, and flexible as to scale. I don't care much about the bleeding edge part, but the clean and simple, and flexibility aspects are wonderful.

A base Arch install includes the kernel and a basic set of libraries and utilities; no X server, much less a window manager or desktop. For my server, I added mysql, Apache, and cups, and that was about it. On the other hand, I have all the software I need on my laptop, but no more. For instance, I have three desktop managers (Xmonad, my favorite; Openbox; and Compiz-fusion), but no window manager, such as Gnome or KDE; only two editors (vim and emacs, the latter left over from before I knew better); etc.

The clean and simple part is harder to describe. Firstly, the installation (which needless to say is non-GUI) walks you through a basic set of system configuration files, which you edit to suit your needs (in fact, little editing is needed by most users, but it's important to understand what these files are for, in case you need them in the future). Second, Arch uses a simpler system of managing daemons than Ubuntu and Fedora. Third, it is considered poor practice to install unpackaged software. In the rare event that you can't find an application you need in the official or community repositories, you're encouraged to assemple it into package and install it by using Pacman. This keeps your system clean and makes later uninstallation or upgrading easy. Finally, unlike other distros, when a shared library gets upgraded, all packages that use the library are upgraded. Thus you avoid littering your system with multiple versions of shared libraries and their attendant web of symlinks.

Last edited by jt512; 17th November 2011 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 17th November 2011, 03:06 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
I'm not familiar enough with Debian to compare it with Arch. The main features of Arch are that it is bleeding edge, clean and simple, and flexible as to scale. I don't care much about the bleeding edge part, but the clean and simple, and flexibility aspects are wonderful.

A base Arch install includes the kernel and a basic set of libraries and utilities; no X server, much less a window manager or desktop. For my server, I added mysql, Apache, and cups, and that was about it. On the other hand, I have all the software I need on my laptop, but no more. For instance, I have three desktop managers (Xmonad, my favorite; Openbox; and Compiz-fusion), but no window manager, such as Gnome or KDE; only two editors (vim and emacs, the latter left over from before I knew better); etc.

The clean and simple part is harder to describe. Firstly, the installation (which needless to say is non-GUI) walks you through a basic set of system configuration files, which you edit to suit your needs (in fact, little editing is needed by most users, but it's important to understand what these files are for, in case you need them in the future). Second, Arch uses a simpler system of managing daemons than Ubuntu and Fedora. Third, it is considered poor practice to install unpackaged software. In the rare event that you can't find an application you need in the official or community repositories, you're encouraged to assemple it into package and install it by using Pacman. This keeps your system clean and makes later uninstallation or upgrading easy. Finally, unlike other distros, when a shared library gets upgraded, all packages that use the library are upgraded. Thus you avoid littering your system with multiple versions of shared libraries and their attendant web of symlinks.
Thanks for the overview.

I'll stick with my initial impression:Sounds kind of like debian testing. I may have to fire it up in a VM and give it a whirl, but not so keen on having to learn the syntax of one more different package manager.
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Old 17th November 2011, 03:33 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Thanks for the overview.

I'll stick with my initial impression:Sounds kind of like debian testing. I may have to fire it up in a VM and give it a whirl, but not so keen on having to learn the syntax of one more different package manager.
Although it might sound like a testing version, there is a clear difference.

A testing version is not intended to be stable at all, it is meant to be used to find out whether a program is stable or nor (from what I can gather).

A rolling release is intended to be stable, even though it might not always be that way.

Another difference is that a testing version is not intended for consumer use.

I hope that clears it up.
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Old 17th November 2011, 08:08 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp View Post
Although it might sound like a testing version, there is a clear difference.

A testing version is not intended to be stable at all, it is meant to be used to find out whether a program is stable or nor (from what I can gather).

A rolling release is intended to be stable, even though it might not always be that way.

Another difference is that a testing version is not intended for consumer use.

I hope that clears it up.
Thanks, I understand what a rolling release is. And the description of arch sounds very similar to Debian testing. You may want to look into the differences between Debian stable,testing,unstable,and experimental if you are not familiar with them and want to understand better why I make the comparison. I could go on and on about it, but I am sure google will do a best job if you wanted to know
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