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Tags Japan earthquake , Japan incidents , nuclear power issues

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Old 14th March 2011, 11:51 AM   #321
excaza
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It's a shame, this will probably set US nuclear back another 20 years
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Old 14th March 2011, 11:52 AM   #322
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I have not seen this map until now.

When Chernobyl exploded, Cs 137 from the event was detected by the Environmental Survey Lab where I work within a week or two.

This Cs 137 spike was attributed to the Chernobyl incident.

Of course Chernobyl and Fukushima are totally and absolutely different kettles of fish.
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Old 14th March 2011, 11:52 AM   #323
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12733393

Ugh. It's such a shame the BBC is so hell-bent on this. One choice gem:

Quote:
But as with the first explosion, Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) said the thick containment walls shielding the reactor cores remained intact. It also said radiation levels outside were still within legal limits.

'Not optimistic'
What wonderful juxtaposition.
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Old 14th March 2011, 11:53 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
but if the core melts, won't it spew highly radioactive crap into the air..for days?
It will spew highly radioactive crap into the air if godzilla rips the roof off of the core too.

Instead of playing 'what if' games, one should play the 'how likely is' game instead. There's a containment area for a reason.
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Old 14th March 2011, 11:53 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
but if the core melts, won't it spew highly radioactive crap into the air..for days?
No.

Not unless you imagine a nuclear core inside a perfectly working containment area is exposed to the open air, at any rate.
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Old 14th March 2011, 11:55 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
but if the core melts, won't it spew highly radioactive crap into the air..for days?
Not if the pressure vessel and concrete containment are intact and North Korea abstains from testing a nuclear bomb at Fukushima.
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Old 14th March 2011, 11:56 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
but if the core melts, won't it spew highly radioactive crap into the air..for days?
Was this a serious question?
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Old 14th March 2011, 11:57 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Was this a serious question?
yup
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:00 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Skwinty View Post
Not if the pressure vessel and concrete containment are intact and North Korea abstains from testing a nuclear bomb at Fukushima.
ok, good to know.

so even if the core melts, we can still be ok?

that's good to know.
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:02 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
ok, good to know.

so even if the core melts, we can still be ok?

that's good to know.
I suspect that the cores have melted substantially already, so you need not worry any further.
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:04 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
ok, good to know.

so even if the core melts, we can still be ok?

that's good to know.
TMI melted. Melted a lot more badly than anybody thought at the time, too.

All of it was still inside the reactor.
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:06 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
but if the core melts, won't it spew highly radioactive crap into the air..for days?
No. If the core melts, it will sit as a nasty puddle of goo in the bottom of the containment vessel until it is cleaned up.

Bottom Line: As long as the containment vessel holds, which it appears to be doing quite well, then no substantial radioactivity will escape into the environment.
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:06 PM   #333
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I am astonished by how little critical thinking there is among the press. (You'd expect it for the general public of course.) Maybe I'm a bit prejudiced: I'm a retired Health Physicist and worked for years in the radiological protection field. (Primarily nuclear attack but with a fair amount of nuclear plant emergency response work.) But with all the good credible sources available on-line, both the public and news outlets are still doing a lot of fear mongering. Sadly, nothing new: The "most trusted news source in journalism" Walter Cronkite, mentioned in a broadcast that radiation was detected penetrating the 3ft thick TMI containment shell. Experts knew better of course, but you can imagine the panic among the public when they thought how bad radiation levels must be to go through three feet of concrete. I'm not sure the press has learned much in the ensuing quarter century.
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:08 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Hamradioguy View Post
I am astonished by how little critical thinking there is among the press.
I'm not. Critical thinking seems to be declining in the press as years pass. Either that or I'm just noticing it more as I get older (I'm only 22).
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:10 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
so even if the core melts, we can still be ok?
Yes. Core meltdown does not result in a nuclear explosion.

The real world is a bit different from Civilization II in this respect.
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:18 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
ok, good to know.

so even if the core melts, we can WILL still be ok? !!!

that's good to know.
Ftfy, Thunder.

Take some deep breaths, pal. It'll be okay.
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:19 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by technoextreme View Post
Having actually worked with industrial equipment I'm calling ********. There is no *********** plug on those generators.

Head hurts immensely. That is a horribly stupid idea that has a good chance of completely destroying the cooling system.
Agreed (with the 2nd part).

WRT the plug, it's not entirely uncommon for mobile generators to have a plug for hooking up to a building (or aircraft, as the case may be). Chances are,however, that if the plug didn't fit it's because the generators weren't set up to produce the "right" kind of power. Which would by why the generators weren't just hardwired in. That's my initial impression and completely unsupported by anything other than my own personal experience working in an industrial/electrical/aircraft maintenance field.
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:20 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Reading the Wikipedia page on Chernobyl, they mention a recent study that mentions "985,000" deaths resulting from the incident.

Isn't that like 100 times more than liberal estimates used to say ? Is that even possible ?
That is a BS number. I encourage you to research the real number and fix that entry (with proper citations and etc.)
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:22 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Ftfy, Thunder.

Take some deep breaths, pal. It'll be okay.
its just a lot to take in, seeing two nuclear plant cooling towers blow up like in a Hollywood action flick.

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Old 14th March 2011, 12:23 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
its just a lot to take in, seeing two nuclear plant cooling towers blow up like in a Hollywood action flick.

Actually what blew off was mostly the metal skin of the building built on top of the containment.
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:29 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
its just a lot to take in, seeing two nuclear plant cooling towers blow up like in a Hollywood action flick.

No cooling towers were involved.

What you saw blowing up was the panel walls that shielded the crane and the crane operator.

See page 16 of the pdf. The mark 1 BWR building.
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:33 PM   #342
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Quote:
Officials were clearly struggling to keep ahead of the crisis and prevent a worst case scenario: a complete reactor meltdown.

In that case, the uranium core melts through the outer containment shell, releasing a wave of radiation and resulting in major, widespread health problems.
From a local paper: http://www.sacbee.com/2011/03/14/347...#ixzz1GbVU4nDn

My understanding is that this isn't really possible, but I'm not a nuclear engineer. Many here seem far more knowledgable than I. Is this even possible? If so, how likely?
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:37 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by OMGturt1es View Post
Is this even possible? If so, how likely?

If they ignored the cooling system failure and made no attempt to flood cool the pressure vessel then it is possible for the heat generated by the melting fuel to melt the steel pressure vessel.

Of course no responsible power utility would ignore the cooling requirements, so not possible.
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:42 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey View Post
WRT the plug, it's not entirely uncommon for mobile generators to have a plug for hooking up to a building (or aircraft, as the case may be). Chances are,however, that if the plug didn't fit it's because the generators weren't set up to produce the "right" kind of power. Which would by why the generators weren't just hardwired in. That's my initial impression and completely unsupported by anything other than my own personal experience working in an industrial/electrical/aircraft maintenance field.
I would agree with that but that would imply some inept stupidity on the part of someone.
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Old 14th March 2011, 12:45 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by technoextreme View Post
I would agree with that but that would imply some inept stupidity on the part of someone.


I can see the conversation going:

"Do you have portable generators? Get them here ricky-quick."

when it should have been:

"Do you have portable generators? What power do they output? Well, **** me, do you know anyone else that's open that does? No, the plant has no power and no cooling, have to find a generator or we're **********. You don't know of anyone else? Alright, thanks. Bye."

10-15s later, after finding the next entry in the yellow pages:

"Do you have portable generators? What power do they output?..."
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Old 14th March 2011, 01:00 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
That is a BS number. I encourage you to research the real number and fix that entry (with proper citations and etc.)
I'm not very knowledgeable about which sources to look for in this instance. They say it comes from the New York Academy of Sciences. Are they reliable but misquoted ? Or what ?
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Old 14th March 2011, 01:02 PM   #347
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So, even newspapers get their nuclear power info from Sid Meier.
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Old 14th March 2011, 01:04 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Rasmus View Post

Yes, things can go wrong. Horribly wrong beyond our wildest dreams and way more wrong than we ever anticipated. Then, things would get really bad. But before I start worrying about that I should spend a lot of time planning my finances for the time when I will hit the lottery jackpot 5 times in a row ...
People are busy browning themselves on the news channels about the 30 year old nuke plants in the USA, particularly the ones in California. A calmer head said that someone's bound to take a page from Japan's book and tighten the girding under them.

Looking at the before and after maps of Japan, the nuke plants are some of the better looking real estate post quake.
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Old 14th March 2011, 01:07 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Nosi View Post
Looking at the before and after maps of Japan, the nuke plants are some of the better looking real estate post quake.
This point needs to be continually emphasized. The bottom line is these plants were built to be very, very tough, and they held up under the worst conditions when pretty much everything else was laid waste.
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Old 14th March 2011, 01:11 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not very knowledgeable about which sources to look for in this instance. They say it comes from the New York Academy of Sciences. Are they reliable but misquoted ? Or what ?
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/.../en/index.html

Not sure reading this if the estimate is 4000 or 8000 as they mention 4000 twice and I am not clear if they mean the same group...

See also;

http://www.magma.ca/~jalrober/Howbad.htm
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/chernobyl/inf07.html

NOWHERE near the number you say the Wiki article has.

I am utterly snowed-in with work today or I would fix this stupidity.
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Old 14th March 2011, 01:13 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Rasmus View Post
Yes, but until Chernobyl that was also true for all the nuclear power plants, wasn't it? And until last week the Japanese plants were quake safe, too ...
No one gave a rat's backside about Japanese nuke plants two weeks ago!
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Old 14th March 2011, 01:13 PM   #352
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The media generally sounds more juvenile when discussing nuclear power than they do guns. I did not think it was possible, but I was wrong. My wife was asking about what she heard on the news. I assured her that while the overheating and subsequent use of seawater to cool the reactor cores ruined them, I was in no danger if the shipyard sent me to Japan to remediate any US ships involved.

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Old 14th March 2011, 01:15 PM   #353
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Apparently the British expert on the BBC warned of meltdown causing a leak.
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Old 14th March 2011, 01:20 PM   #354
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why don't they just dump a few million cubic yards of concrete onto all 4 cores?
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Old 14th March 2011, 01:29 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The media generally sounds more juvenile when discussing nuclear power than they do guns.
It seems like many of the journalists writing/talking about this are environment correspondents (like the BBC guy doing the analysis here). What you'd want is a technical correspondent, but I suppose they're few and far between -- most journalists these days seem to have degrees in journalism and social sciences, and their technological and scientific illiteracy is just as bad as that of Joe Average.
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Old 14th March 2011, 01:48 PM   #356
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Apparently it was some expert on nuclear power. I didn't actually see who it was, so I can't give a name, sadly.
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Old 14th March 2011, 01:53 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
I was speaking to a former design engineer who was part of the team working on the British nuclear programme in the 1980s and he is resolute that this (i.e. the power stations) is a commercial rather than environmental disaster. I think his phrase was "expensive pile of slag".
I bet they had quake insurance!
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Old 14th March 2011, 02:02 PM   #358
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The problem with the press is not a lack of critical thinking. They know damned well what is really going on. They also know that so long as they keep people scared of nuclear Armageddon they will keep watching. Ratings take precedence over facts.
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Old 14th March 2011, 02:05 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
It's a shame, this will probably set US nuclear back another 20 years
People fear high prices more than high fallout.
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Old 14th March 2011, 02:29 PM   #360
LoudHoward
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 37
Originally Posted by Nosi View Post
I bet they had quake insurance!
Unfortunately, the insurance won't be paid out as the damage wasn't from the quake but from the tsunami (obviously unrelated)! They only took out the low level drain overflow insurance as I understand it
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