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Old 15th March 2011, 02:28 PM   #1
jargon buster
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Exposing the freemen/redemption gurus

Any information found on the web relating to the freeman/commercial redemption gurus peddling their wares can be submitted for discussion.

If this isnt in the right place, then can a moderator please amend its location.
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Old 18th March 2011, 03:43 AM   #2
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Ray St Claire

From Mr Ray St Claire's website:

"There were chaotic scenes as around 600 activists from the British Constitution Group massed around Birkenhead county court [Mar 7th 2011] chanting “freedom,” and “arrest that judge” as police with riot dogs attempted to hold them back.

Protesters stormed the courtroom and civilly arrested Judge Michael Peake before escorting him from the building. Peake was eventually wrestled away from protesters by police as the activists chanted, “Do your job” to the police. Dozens more police arrived to set up blockades and numerous protesters were arrested.

Peake was ruling on a case involving Roger Hayes, former member of UKIP, who has refused to pay council tax, both as a protest against the government’s treasonous activities in sacrificing Britain to globalist interests and as a result of Hayes clearly proving that council tax is illegal."


Anyone seen/know of evidence of the presence of 'riot dogs'? Was Justice Peake really escorted away by protesters? What on earth would they have done with him in any case?
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Old 18th March 2011, 04:39 AM   #3
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Quote:
Under the law of England and Wales, members of the public are allowed to use reasonable force to make a lawful arrest. The situations in which a citizen can lawfully make an arrest are, in fact, identical to those in which a police officer can make an arrest. A citizen can lawfully arrest a person:

Who is committing an arrestable offence or if the citizen has reasonable grounds to suspect that they are committing an arrestable offence. – Arrestable offences are ones which, in law, carry a power of arrest. These include theft and most types of assault;
Who has committed an arrestable offence or who the citizen reasonably suspects to have committed an arrestable offence;
Who is causing a breach of the peace.
Under recent legislation there may also be the additional requirements that:
The citizen could not reasonably have called on a police officer to carry out the arrest; and,
The arrest was necessary to prevent injury, loss or damage of property, or to prevent someone avoiding arrest by a police officer.
So by law they did not have the right to arrest the Judge as it did not fall under the legislation, as such I would have been looking at charging them with kidnap.
HOWEVER THEY DIDNT GET ANYWHERE NEAR HIM.
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Old 18th March 2011, 07:53 AM   #4
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It's worth remembering that 'St clair' is a notorious conman. His real name is Gary Martin Beaver. He was involved in selling worthless titles of nobility & web marketing scams prior to his new incarnation as a FMOTL guru 'par excellence'. FMOTL is simply another con for him. He gets to maintain his lifestyle by punting FMOTL material devised by other gurus (as his own) to unsuspecting cretins for money.

There is a little, tiny bit of me that admires his chuzpah in selling 2nd hand woo but at the end of the day he's a parasitical worm.

http://www.realscam.com/f11/ray-st-c...49/index2.html

http://www.faketitles.com/html/the_eager_beaver.html

Last edited by gtm; 18th March 2011 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 18th March 2011, 10:11 AM   #5
jargon buster
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If anybody wants to look at the house he lives in drop me a PM.
I have a lovely photo of it.

Oh and he pays his council tax, you wouldn't risk being evicted from where he lives for a couple of grand.

A poster on TPUC (el scampio) did a marvellous expose on him.
http://forum.davidicke.com/showpost....9&postcount=29
http://www.calameo.com/books/0002862895551c2dc783a

Last edited by jargon buster; 18th March 2011 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 18th March 2011, 02:16 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by gtm View Post
It's worth remembering that 'St clair' is a notorious conman. His real name is Gary Martin Beaver.
Not according to his best mate (the well known guru) John Harris he isn't.
John Harris (who now calls himself Sion) has just posted this in a thread about St Clair on tpuc:

Quote:
To all concerned....

I have locked this thread and it will be deleted in a few days after all concerned have had chance to read what I have to say.

Ray St Clair is a very good friend of mine who is generous, kind and has a big heart. I know Ray very well and can one hundred percent say that he is NOT Gary Beaver. A friend of mine has actually had communication with the real Gary Beaver and we know that this is not Ray, so please for once and for all accept this fact. Granted Ray does have a bit of a chequered past, but to be honest who doesn’t in one way or another - I have not exactly been an angel myself. Yes Ray has faults the same as I have faults and to be honest so does everyone, so please do me a favour and get off his back – unless of course you are cleaner than clean!!

This forum is about respecting everyone and finding friendships it is not for the kind of thing that has happened to Ray and nor will I tolerate this behaviour anymore. I have always tried to allow the forum to be a place where most subjects can be discussed, but to be honest after recent events – including this with Ray – I now must stop this going any further.

From this moment anyone who posts this sort of attack about someone better get their facts straight first and also ask themselves “do I really need to post this”. Because if this happens again, whoever posted the topic will be banned – this also includes moderators! I will not tolerate this anymore.

I do not want to do this, but if you cannot act with decency, kindness and simple respect towards one another then I will rule this forum with an iron fist until such time as you come to your senses and do as such. You can call it tough love if you like.

I trust I have made myself clear.

Sion x
http://www.tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic....30555&start=70

So, St Clair has had a "chequered past" but don't mention it or you will be banned.
Just the type of behaviour that if it were TPTB acting in this manner, Harris would criticise.

Last edited by Stacey Grove; 18th March 2011 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 18th March 2011, 02:24 PM   #7
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Its no secret that St Clair has backed Harris in the past so its to be expected that he fights his corner for him.

If anyone can watch a Harris video and believes that he knows what he is talking about is beyond help, the guy cant even string a sentence together.
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Old 19th March 2011, 02:04 AM   #8
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Mr Ray St Claire is Supreme Being Gary Beaver? Just a case of mistaken identity based on a passing resemblence surely

http://www.faketitles.com/html/the_eager_beaver.html

http://www.baronage.co.uk/2001/faq901.html

http://www.raymondstclair.com/
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Old 3rd April 2011, 06:28 AM   #9
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http://www.lawfulbank.com/

Quote:
There will be a fee of around £10 UK to open an account with this system we prefer to call this a donation, this will help with the software and admin costs, cards and all the usual banking system facilities will be made available to you once it is up and running
A bank set up by the WFS and the British Constitution Group.

Menard and St Clair with access to your cash, good luck with that.
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Old 3rd April 2011, 09:24 AM   #10
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If it's in the UK it will be subject to all the regulations that other UK banks are subject to.
How will it be any different.
If you want a bank that is 'safe' then get an account with the Co-Operative Bank. or one of the Building Societies that are still 'Mutual'
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Old 3rd April 2011, 09:31 AM   #11
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the difference with that one is that you pay your tenner for a promise that you will get an account.

By the way, I have signed up and am now waiting for my e-mail to tell me when I have to pay my ten pounds
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Old 3rd April 2011, 02:00 PM   #12
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Was it an April Fool's joke?

Quote:
cards and all the usual banking system facilities will be made available to you once it is up and running
Just no. The usual facilities will be made available? Cards?

Utter rubbish.
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Old 3rd April 2011, 02:19 PM   #13
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cash points/hole in the walls???

I cant wait.
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Old 3rd April 2011, 02:29 PM   #14
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The Lawful Bank
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Old 4th April 2011, 12:23 PM   #15
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Update on how the LAWFUL BANK will operate
http://www.tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic....31292&start=20
Quote:
Hi Everyone
i will explain a little about the system , firstly to offset any suspicions Fractional reserve banking is as it is because of the interest charged , this is where the greed came in . and where the mess came from that caused us all to be slaves

ok heres a little example of how it works for the purpose of loans

the current system is based on creating nothing out of thin air and cheekily charging you interest

a simple scenario currently a mortgage of £250,000 over 20 yrs costs based on a 5% interest rate £1671.72 per month total repaid £401 212.8 assuming no overpayment

under the new system it would cost 1041.67 per month over 20 yrs total repayable £250,000 plus a 10% setup fee total £275,000 a saving of over £126,000 that is a lot of money saved


this system is based on a pledge from each customer of £100 (there will be option to go to £1000)
so with 1 million customers the system has a real worth of £100 million +

set up fees pay for the system and staff wages etc profit is paid back to customers in each branch

the bank is owned by all the members , and locally by the customers

a committee of people decides who to install as staff , bank manager etc you can set up your own branch in your area and raise your committee , you can even work in the bank or be its manager etc subject to a vote

outside auditing each year by auditors who do not have any interest or account in that branch , with full transparency


Everything done to full rules of law (Common law) if you do wrong you will be caught and dealt with under the law

each site that is set up is a duplicate of all the previous

so currently lawfulbank.com is administered by 3 people , another mirror will be set up with the same data and will be monitored by 1 person from the first site and 2 new trustworthy people , they in turn will set up another site and again new people will administer the site , this will come from all groups such as TPUC, FMOTL, WFS , UK COLUMN , FREEDOMREBELS etc etc

there will be a lot of duplicates as it is likely that people will try to destroy sites as we make an impact and start to discredit the system as it will be removing their power over us .

The system is not controlled by anyone other than its members , and each branch will have further scrutiny to ensure everything is being conducted in accordance with common law

Once Roger releases his update from the presentation concerning the bank i will post it here so there is a fuller explanation of what is happening and explained in more detail

i encourage you to join in as the faster we build the numbers the faster we take back our liberties

there will be a £10 account set up fee and a charge for deposits and withdrawals of £1 + 0.25% this will make up for the no interest loans and the payback each year from profit to customers

If you have large cash account you can loan your cash to other customers and earn 10% interest , thats better than any bank

I am working with Roger Hayes and Others to get this out and around as fast as possible .

And whats more in the new system , no Tax, no Vat etc etc , more of your money will be yours

Also off my own back i urge you to join the British Constitution group here and support the work it is doing to bring all the different groups together . The site charges a membership fee the cheapest being £1 per month . Please support the BCG as they are working to bring all this and all groups together under the lawful rebellion umbrella . Leaflets , flyers banners etc cost money and without your money none of this can happen and move forward .

if your already part of 1 group then join up anyway and be a part of more to come , let 2011 be the year we are free

http://www.thebcgroup.org.uk/civicrm/co ... set=1&id=1

**Please note Roger has not asked me to do this i am doing this because i believe everyone on these forums wants the same thing but if we sit and just observe we only add to the problem and do nothing to stop our own incarceration ***
I dont know where to start with this???

how are they going to get their money back after they have lent it out?
After all money is just an illusion and the banks don't actually give you anything of value (freeman logic), and as such you are not actually lawfully obliged to pay it back.

Last edited by jargon buster; 4th April 2011 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 4th April 2011, 12:34 PM   #16
Horatius
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Originally Posted by jargon buster View Post
how are they going to get their money back after they have lent it out?
After all money is just an illusion and the banks don't actually give you anything of value (freeman logic), and as such you are not actually lawfully obliged to pay it back.


Well, they did say that the 1 million people would each be giving £100. I can only assume they'll be working with cold hard cash only, none of that electronic funds stuff. So the bank will have a Giant Cube of Cash to work with....As the borrowers receive money, and pay back their loans, the Cube of Cash will just shrink and grow in size.

Of course, what they forget is that this "£100 each" plan would only let them finance 400 mortgages of £250,000 each. Who decides who gets the loans?
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Old 4th April 2011, 12:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
there will be a £10 account set up fee and a charge for deposits and withdrawals of £1 + 0.25% this will make up for the no interest loans and the payback each year from profit to customers
Errr...who gets this money?
It is simply chipping away at the pile of cash they have, they will have to take that fee from the persons account every time they deposit or withdraw.
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Old 4th April 2011, 01:00 PM   #18
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Those 3 'trustworthy' Administrators I suppose.

it reads like one of those MLM Scams.
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Old 4th April 2011, 02:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
it reads like one of those MLM Scams.
taken from the lawful bank webpage
Quote:
As you join in send a link to everyone you know and get them to join in too
Nah...... surely not.
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Old 4th April 2011, 02:37 PM   #20
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Well technicaly it looks like an extremely clumsy version of a building society.
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Old 4th April 2011, 03:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
Everything done to full rules of law (Common law) if you do wrong you will be caught and dealt with under the law
Dealt with under the law... If they can provide a true notarized copy of my wet ink signature under seal, then I may consent (on behalf of my person) to the jurisdiction of their "law" as long their judge can prove his oath to me and says in honour throughout the proceedings.
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Old 4th April 2011, 03:18 PM   #22
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I still cant get an answer as to what this "law" actually is.

After all the statutes are gone they say they are left with "the law" which we are all bound by, unfortunately no one knows what it is.
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Old 4th April 2011, 06:21 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by jargon buster View Post
Update on how the LAWFUL BANK will operate
http://www.tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic....31292&start=20
Million members?
Mortgages?!?

Oh please. Such a paranoid fantasy land they live in. There is a reason why none of these FOTLers can get a real mortgage, getting them to fall for this toy bank scam is just cruel.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
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Old 5th April 2011, 01:10 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by jargon buster View Post
Update on how the LAWFUL BANK will operate
http://www.tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic....31292&start=20


I dont know where to start with this???

how are they going to get their money back after they have lent it out?
After all money is just an illusion and the banks don't actually give you anything of value (freeman logic), and as such you are not actually lawfully obliged to pay it back.
I wonder if they realise they'll be operating a fractional reserve system just like real banks (or maybe the reserve is set at 0%, but that's ok, members will just send in more money).

Seems to me this is all about giving the faithful the illusion of change, control and real power (We can do it! We can do it! Let's arrest another Judge!) but the challenges and practicalities will no doubt kill the idea and that will be all down, of course, to the corrupt System rather than the absurdness of trying to reinvent the wheel.

Mind you, if some people actually send money in and give it to the local 'manager' then how long before there is civil war (under Common Law rules of course) amongst the followers when money isn't returned or has been 'subjected to charges'?

And what respectable firm of auditors will touch this if it's outside the taxation system?

&, no interest to be charged? Go to your local Islamic bank if you don't want to pay interest.
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Old 5th April 2011, 01:12 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
Million members?
Mortgages?!?

Oh please. Such a paranoid fantasy land they live in. There is a reason why none of these FOTLers can get a real mortgage, getting them to fall for this toy bank scam is just cruel.


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Do you think they'll be an application form for a loan, references to be followed up
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Old 5th April 2011, 01:47 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Grassy Knowlington View Post
Do you think they'll be an application form for a loan, references to be followed up

Of course there will. Freemen love forms. Probably with lots of wet ink signatures and on Robin Egg Blue paper.
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Old 5th April 2011, 03:34 AM   #27
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Unfortunately you can't just call yourself a bank, or even a credit union, in the UK unless you agree with minor inconveniences such as... The Law.

FOTL-Woo is not The Law.

Everything that the "bank" would be legally required to do in order to operate would be against FOTL-Land principles.

ETA:
Quote:
Everything done to full rules of law (Common law) if you do wrong you will be caught and dealt with under the law
That's not how the real world operates.
Solicitors, Surveyors, Valuers, the FSA, real banks would all laugh at The Bank of FOTL

Last edited by ComfySlippers; 5th April 2011 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 5th April 2011, 03:53 AM   #28
Grassy Knowlington
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Well technicaly it looks like an extremely clumsy version of a building society.
Yes, but in this case it appears you can borrow a large sum (£250,000) pay a 10% 'set-up' fee then lend this to other members at 10% interest that must be per annum since it's 'better than a bank'.

Sounds excellent!

Of course, being FMOTL the loan will not be secured on your dwelling, surely?

I wonder if anyone there has actually worked through some figures and 'what-ifs'? Nah, all that matters is that's it's all about the common people rising up to take control....
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Old 5th April 2011, 03:57 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Grassy Knowlington View Post
I wonder if they realise they'll be operating a fractional reserve system just like real banks (or maybe the reserve is set at 0%, but that's ok, members will just send in more money).

I don't think they've even thought about what reserves are, or should be. They picture a giant Cube of Cash sitting in the bank, ready to be loaned out. None of this "accounting" funny business needed!

I expect that will last right up until guy #401 wants to buy a house...


Originally Posted by Grassy Knowlington View Post
Seems to me this is all about giving the faithful the illusion of change, control and real power (We can do it! We can do it! Let's arrest another Judge!) but the challenges and practicalities will no doubt kill the idea and that will be all down, of course, to the corrupt System rather than the absurdness of trying to reinvent the wheel.

I take it as someone deciding to go for the big con this time, not just the petty ante stuff.
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Old 5th April 2011, 04:39 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I take it as someone deciding to go for the big con this time, not just the petty ante stuff.
Con / April Fool's joke / Stupidity ...

Whichever it is one thing is guaranteed. It will never happen.

You simply can not just decide you are a bank, building society or credit union.
To be any of those things you need to be registered with the FSA in the UK.
List of Banks in the UK
There is not the remotest possibly of that ever happening.

Mortgages and property ownership is a legal minefield. Most people don't see the minefield because behind the scenes Solicitors take care of the legal aspects.
FOTLs don't like solictors because they deal with that pesky Law thing.

Who is responsible to repay this £250,000 mortgage? After 20 years who owns the house? .. A real person? Their strawman? their legal entity? their strawman-corporation?
...and who is this mythical FOTL who can afford a £250,000 mortgage anyway? Most have a record of not being able to pay for much in life.

To open a bank account, and thus be eligible to apply for a mortgage, you will have to supply proof of identity. That's how real banks work.
Birth Certificate? nope they don't believe in them. Passport? nope they don't believe in them, Driving License? Nope they don't believe in them.
Piece of blue egg-box with "John of the Family Nob" scrawled on?
...Yup, that'll do nicely Sir.

Asking people to send in £100 is criminal.
Sending in £100 is sheer stupidity.

Last edited by ComfySlippers; 5th April 2011 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 5th April 2011, 04:59 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
Asking people to send in £100 is criminal.
Sending in £100 is sheer stupidity.



And when exactly have either of these points stopped a Fotler from doing anything?

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Old 5th April 2011, 07:28 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by jargon buster View Post
Update on how the LAWFUL BANK will operate
http://www.tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic....31292&start=20


I dont know where to start with this???
how are they going to get their money back after they have lent it out?
After all money is just an illusion and the banks don't actually give you anything of value (freeman logic), and as such you are not actually lawfully obliged to pay it back.
How about with the FSA & the OFT? This 'Bank' will need to be regulated by both agencies & won't touch these jokers with a 10 foot barge pole. 'Arris is fantasising again. There's more chance of a squadron of pigs doing loop the loops above Buckingham Palace on the 18th sunday of the month than the Lawful Bank ever opening it's doors for customers.
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Old 5th April 2011, 07:42 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Grassy Knowlington View Post
Yes, but in this case it appears you can borrow a large sum (£250,000) pay a 10% 'set-up' fee then lend this to other members at 10% interest that must be per annum since it's 'better than a bank'.
That was the first thing that leapt out at me.
I realise this isn't a surprise, but they really, really haven't thought htis through.
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Old 5th April 2011, 08:07 AM   #34
Grassy Knowlington
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
....
I realise this isn't a surprise, but they really, really haven't thought htis through.
It probably doesn't matter. Publish some 'rules' (is that the right term for a FMOTLer?) that appear superficially fair or at least attractive to the punters, get the money rolling in from honest folk who really want to do something better for society and doing anything is better is surely better than doing nothing like the sheeple (and it's only £100), then later say; "errr, sorry everyone. We'll have to alter the rules a bit....I'm afraid the rates of return won't be quite as good and it'll be more expensive to 'borrow'...our 'overheads' [aka, one hopes not, preferred loans for the scheme originators] are much higher because we've not had enough income...send more money....".

That's assuming, of course, that all the requirements of FSA etc. are ignored. But, hey, these people can arrest Judges!
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Old 5th April 2011, 08:37 AM   #35
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What does the FOTLer do when he finally has to admit he can't repay his loan to The Bank of FOTL?

Can he still go onto FOTL-Forums and say "i owez a big loan itz not my folt its the banks they lended me to much are there any magic words i can say to make the lown go away?"

Or will a new movement need to be created to fight the evil FOTL-Banks-Conspiracy, (which aren't legal banks as they operate under equine laws and all their managers are actually working for the horse-surgeons.. [ever wondered why a Doctor says his patient is 'Stable' !?] )

A child's piggy-bank offers more security.
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Old 5th April 2011, 09:28 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
Or will a new movement need to be created to fight the evil FOTL-Banks-Conspiracy, (which aren't legal banks as they operate under equine laws and all their managers are actually working for the horse-surgeons.. [ever wondered why a Doctor says his patient is 'Stable' !?] )


That's why they 'saddle' you with a debt
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Old 5th April 2011, 09:31 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
What does the FOTLer do when he finally has to admit he can't repay his loan to The Bank of FOTL?

Can he still go onto FOTL-Forums and say "i owez a big loan itz not my folt its the banks they lended me to much are there any magic words i can say to make the lown go away?"

Or will a new movement need to be created to fight the evil FOTL-Banks-Conspiracy, (which aren't legal banks as they operate under equine laws and all their managers are actually working for the horse-surgeons.. [ever wondered why a Doctor says his patient is 'Stable' !?] )

A child's piggy-bank offers more security.
My bet would be the first thing they will do is go round to the solicitors, get legal advice and try to sue the organisers based on the scheme being illegal!
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Old 5th April 2011, 10:47 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
And when exactly have either of these points stopped a Fotler from doing anything?

Or any con man.

While it is common knowledge that Joseph Smith founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, few know of his attempt to found a bank in Kirtland, Ohio. This important event in Mormon history was reportedly done because of a revelation that Joseph Smith received. The following excerpt is from Mormonism - Shadow or Reality? page 531:

Warren Parrish, who had been an officer in the bank and had apostatized from the Church, made this statement: "I have listened to him [i.e. Smith] with feelings of no ordinary kind, when he declared that the AUDIBLE VOICE OF GOD, INSTRUCTED HIM TO ESTABLISH A BANKING-ANTI BANKING INSTITUTION, who like Aaron's rod SHALL SWALLOW UP ALL OTHER BANKS (the Bank of Monroe excepted,) and grow and flourish and spread from the rivers to the ends of the earth, and survive when all others should be laid in ruins." (Painesville Republican, February 22, 1838, as quoted in Conflict at Kirtland, page 297)

Wilford Woodruff, who remained true to the Church and became the fourth President, confirmed the fact that Joseph Smith claimed to have a revelation concerning the bank. Under the date of January 6, 1837, he recorded the following in his journal: "I also herd [sic] President Joseph Smith, jr., declare in the presence of F. Williams, D. Whitmer, S. Smith, W. Parrish, and others in the Deposit office that HE HAD RECEIVED THAT MORNING THE WORD OF THE LORD UPON THE SUBJECT OF THE KIRTLAND SAFETY SOCIETY. He was alone in a room by himself and he had not only [heard] the voice of the Spirit upon the Subject but even an AUDIBLE VOICE. He did not tell us at that time what the Lord said upon the subject but remarked that if we would give heed to the commandments the Lord had given this morning all would be well." ("Wilford Woodruff's Journal," January 6, 1837, as quoted in Conflict at Kirtland, page 296)



http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...smithsbank.htm
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Old 5th April 2011, 05:21 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post


That's why they 'saddle' you with a debt
Or why they demand that you 'pony' up the cash when the loan is due.

It's clearly all about the 'buck'(ing broncos).

I wonder if that is why they always refer to the King as 'sire' (which means "father of a horse" apparently)?

I think we're really on to something here.
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Old 5th April 2011, 06:13 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by solzhenitsyn View Post
I think we're really on to something here.


The scary part is, it makes at least as much sense as the "admiralty" nonsense they really spew.


And on that note, you "charge" things to your credit cards, and the cavalry "charge" to destroy their enemies.


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