What do you guys believe?

Hi. I am obviously new to the board. I introduced myself in the new members thread. A majority of you here are obviously opposed to so called "conspiracy theories." I can respect that. Are there any so called "conspiracy theories" that you do believe in?

gsm1988 said:

Hi. I am obviously new to the board. I introduced myself in the new members thread. A majority of you here are obviously opposed to so called "conspiracy theories." I can respect that. Are there any so called "conspiracy theories" that you do believe in?

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I'm sure there will be a wide variety of replies to this question. There really isn't much of a group-think vibe at this site. Some people will say that Megrahi was framed for the Pan Am Lockerbie bombing, others that maybe the mob was somehow mixed up in the Kennedy Assasinations and some people think that the numbers of Hotdogs in a packet compared to the number of buns in a packet is the real NWO smoking gun...

Thank you for your response Brainache. I guess that my problem with the skeptic community is that seemingly any explanation for happenings in the world that is outside of the "accepted" viewpoints is automatically dismissed as "conspiracy theories." For example, America has seen President after President, Congress after Congress, Senate after Senate, Republicans and Democrats take the majority countless times, yet nothing seems to ever change. The Bush and Obama presidencies are a great example. Obama has done absolutely nothing to change the course that Bush put this country on, and in my opinion has made things even worse in some ways. Despite the fact that nothing ever seems to change, people who believe that there is more than meets the eye in regards to events in the world are constantly derided and ridiculed as "conspiracy theorists", and are excluded from mainstream, "serious" conversation of the world's events. Why is this? I can understand skepticism when it comes to the 9/11 Truth movement, which I believe goes way too far sometimes, but some so-called conspiracies are not so crazy and are in fact true.

gsm1988 said:

..... but some so-called conspiracies are not so crazy and are in fact true.

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For example?

gsm1988 said:

Thank you for your response Brainache. I guess that my problem with the skeptic community is that seemingly any explanation for happenings in the world that is outside of the "accepted" viewpoints is automatically dismissed as "conspiracy theories."

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Yes, we all believe everything the government tells us. That's the bond that keeps us together.

gsm1988 said:

Hi. I am obviously new to the board. I introduced myself in the new members thread. A majority of you here are obviously opposed to so called "conspiracy theories." I can respect that. Are there any so called "conspiracy theories" that you do believe in?

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I believe in plenty of conspiracies. Conspiracy theories on the other hand are basically defined by their unsubstantiated nature, hence I do not believe in any conspiracy theories.

gsm1988 said:

Thank you for your response Brainache. I guess that my problem with the skeptic community is that seemingly any explanation for happenings in the world that is outside of the "accepted" viewpoints is automatically dismissed as "conspiracy theories." For example, America has seen President after President, Congress after Congress, Senate after Senate, Republicans and Democrats take the majority countless times, yet nothing seems to ever change. The Bush and Obama presidencies are a great example. Obama has done absolutely nothing to change the course that Bush put this country on, and in my opinion has made things even worse in some ways. Despite the fact that nothing ever seems to change, people who believe that there is more than meets the eye in regards to events in the world are constantly derided and ridiculed as "conspiracy theorists", and are excluded from mainstream, "serious" conversation of the world's events. Why is this? I can understand skepticism when it comes to the 9/11 Truth movement, which I believe goes way too far sometimes, but some so-called conspiracies are not so crazy and are in fact true.

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Even though I have 1400+ posts here, I would not call myself a member of the "skeptic community" or even a "debunker". I came here initially because I wanted information about 9/11 conspiracies and I stay here because it is a good source of ideas for research papers.

I don't know what you mean by "the accepted viewpoints." It's not a matter of 'us' and 'them'. There are vast disagreements between politicians, journalists, and academics who study the state of the world. What i have a problem with is ideas that brush aside these vast differences claiming the real problem has to do with secret things - some of which are so secret that only a small group of mostly not well-educated, young, white, American men know about.

"I can understand skepticism when it comes to the 9/11 Truth movement, which I believe goes way too far sometimes"
Only sometimes? Like which times? The times you disagree with? Why don't ask Judy Wood which times go too far?

"some so-called conspiracies are not so crazy"
Yes they are. And that's why they're conspiracy theories.

"and are in fact true."
No they're not. There are conspiracies. This happens regularly. But they are not conspiracy theories. And every single native speaker of English knows the difference. There are groups of people who work together to bring about goals, some of which are nefarious - like robbing banks or holding meetings. I am not a conspiracy theorist because I believe my boss is meeting with my managers preparing to fire me - or promote me. Although I do believe they are conspiring against me.

Your comments also point to one of the issues that steers me away from any of the explanations for world politics that get labeled as a 'conspiracy theory'. I'm not American and I don't live in North America. These so-called 'conspiracy theories' are so culturally American I can only imagine them making sense to people with little worldly experience - young white American men, for example. In all the theories that get discussed here, the USA runs the world and all these other governments seem to do what they say, go along with US interests, or don't know what's going on.

And watch your reply to this last point. You might just come across like one of these conspiracy theorists who believes in vast, secret, one world control by a force that hardly anyone has ever heard of - except a small group of young, white American
men.

gsm1988 said:

For example, America has seen President after President, Congress after Congress, Senate after Senate, Republicans and Democrats take the majority countless times, yet nothing seems to ever change. The Bush and Obama presidencies are a great example. Obama has done absolutely nothing to change the course that Bush put this country on, and in my opinion has made things even worse in some ways. Despite the fact that nothing ever seems to change, people who believe that there is more than meets the eye in regards to events in the world are constantly derided and ridiculed as "conspiracy theorists", and are excluded from mainstream, "serious" conversation of the world's events. Why is this? I can understand skepticism when it comes to the 9/11 Truth movement, which I believe goes way too far sometimes, but some so-called conspiracies are not so crazy and are in fact true.

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From the outside something is quite obvious that is often missed by Americans themselves, there is not really a lot of difference between your Democrat and Republican parties.

The other major issue with getting governments to move, is that they are a little like supertankers, it takes a lot of time to shift their direction, and turning them 180 degrees isn't going to happen over night. Governments aren't just a President (Prime Minister) but rather include a huge number of civil workers and aides and hangers on that fill up the ranks, many of whom don't change as each new leader comes in and out. The main running of things is done by them and it takes time to get them to do things differently. For instance, Obama didn't fire all the top generals and appoint new ones when he came into office. As such, what major changes would you expect to see in their policies on Afghanistan?

The major issue I have with most CTs is that they simply aren't based on reality, they are based on some comic book or Hollywood created reality totally ignoring how things really work. This doesn't mean that conspriacies don't happen, they do, it's just that 9,999,999 out of 10 million, they don't happen in the fantasy ways that CTs would like to believe that they do.

gsm1988 said:

Thank you for your response Brainache. I guess that my problem with the skeptic community is that seemingly any explanation for happenings in the world that is outside of the "accepted" viewpoints is automatically dismissed as "conspiracy theories." For example, America has seen President after President, Congress after Congress, Senate after Senate, Republicans and Democrats take the majority countless times, yet nothing seems to ever change. The Bush and Obama presidencies are a great example. Obama has done absolutely nothing to change the course that Bush put this country on, and in my opinion has made things even worse in some ways. Despite the fact that nothing ever seems to change, people who believe that there is more than meets the eye in regards to events in the world are constantly derided and ridiculed as "conspiracy theorists", and are excluded from mainstream, "serious" conversation of the world's events. Why is this? I can understand skepticism when it comes to the 9/11 Truth movement, which I believe goes way too far sometimes, but some so-called conspiracies are not so crazy and are in fact true.

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I'm not American and I can tell you that your political situation is no conspiracy. It's a product of your current system.

-Politicians need money.
-Special interests are encouraged to contribute because of high returns on the dollar. They'd be derelict in their duties not to.
-Politicians pass laws that benefit their contributors as much as possible while still remaining viable for reelection.

It's a game of legalizes bribery and if the politicians don't play they don't win.

Thanks for the responses. I appreciate the explanation about the difference between conspiracies and conspiracy theories. I guess that there are certain issues that you would call conspiracy theories that I would call conspiracies. Using your definitions, the push for world government is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is real. The Federal Reserve scam is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is a real scam. Governments using climate change as a way to redistribute wealth and increase control over peoples' lives is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is real. Yet I have seen all of these conspiracies get lumped in with conspiracy theories. I think that this diminishes the skeptic movement in some peoples' eyes, the constant need by some skeptics to discredit events taking place in the world which people can watch happen right before their very eyes.

I am looking forward to reading some of your responses and I thank you all for responding.

Sceptic-PK said:

I believe in plenty of conspiracies. Conspiracy theories on the other hand are basically defined by their unsubstantiated nature, hence I do not believe in any conspiracy theories.

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I'm with Sceptic-PK on this.

Don't be fooled by the word "theory". Conspiracy theories are nothing like scientific theories.

gsm1988 said:

Thanks for the responses. I appreciate the explanation about the difference between conspiracies and conspiracy theories. I guess that there are certain issues that you would call conspiracy theories that I would call conspiracies. Using your definitions, the push for world government is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is real. The Federal Reserve scam is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is a real scam. Governments using climate change as a way to redistribute wealth and increase control over peoples' lives is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is real. Yet I have seen all of these conspiracies get lumped in with conspiracy theories. I think that this diminishes the skeptic movement in some peoples' eyes, the constant need by some skeptics to discredit events taking place in the world which people can watch happen right before their very eyes.

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The difference between conspiracies and conspiracy theories is evidence. Are you going to present any evidence, or are you just going to make a lot of unsupported claims?

gsm1988, how is the fed a scam? What sources of information do you use to come to that conclusion?

How is climate change a method of redistributing wealth? What sources of information do you use to come to that conclusion?

gsm1988 said:

Thanks for the responses. I appreciate the explanation about the difference between conspiracies and conspiracy theories. I guess that there are certain issues that you would call conspiracy theories that I would call conspiracies. Using your definitions, the push for world government is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is real. The Federal Reserve scam is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is a real scam. Governments using climate change as a way to redistribute wealth and increase control over peoples' lives is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is real. Yet I have seen all of these conspiracies get lumped in with conspiracy theories. I think that this diminishes the skeptic movement in some peoples' eyes, the constant need by some skeptics to discredit events taking place in the world which people can watch happen right before their very eyes.

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I think you're still not getting what I meant with the distinction between 'conspiracy' and 'conspiracy theory'. None of the examples you raised are conspiracies. If they were, we wouldn't be posting about them on the JREF.

There are events in the world. There are interpretations of these events. Some people ascribe the cause of these events to secret actions whose meaning we can only vaguely understand - like the Illuminati or secret Jewish/Masonic/CIA control. Your explanations of causation are not conspiracy theory explanations. They are political explanations. They involve no conspiracies at all, since almost all the events in them are open to public scrutiny. And that's how you know them.

The problem is that many people believe the political explanations because they also believe there is a secret explanation for them linking them to the local Masonic lodge or Jewish temple. These people then claim there are aspects of these political actions that no one except a small group of mostly young, white american males knows about. There are secret documents that are being ignored - The Protocol of the Elders of Zion. There are secret relationships between the powerful used to suppress meaningful information - this is claimed about the collapse of WTC 7.

That's what makes these conspiracies and conspiracy theories. Since the actions of the central government in the USA are extremely transparent and there are bazillions of journalist, academics, and generally nosy citizens watching who every significant member of this government talks with, sleeps with, or even knows.

Or do they only appear to be? Is it all an illusion? Is it really just a secret group that controls the world and makes it look this way?

If I posted the evidence for why I think the way I do, you would end up discrediting me and ignoring me and all of the resources I use. I don't see the point. Here's a question for you: why do you guys consider the federal reserve and arguments about the real goals of climate change legislation to be conspiracy theories, yet refuse to question the official Holocaust story. I'm not attacking the Holocaust, just wondering what your reasons are.

If I am asked further, I will post some resources that explain my thinking on the fed and climate change legislation.

gsm1988 said:

If I posted the evidence for why I think the way I do, you would end up discrediting me and ignoring me and all of the resources I use. I don't see the point. Here's a question for you: why do you guys consider the federal reserve and arguments about the real goals of climate change legislation to be conspiracy theories, yet refuse to question the official Holocaust story. I'm not attacking the Holocaust, just wondering what your reasons are.

If I am asked further, I will post some resources that explain my thinking on the fed and climate change legislation.

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Maybe I misunderstood your post. It's a common thing here on JREF for real life conspiracy theorists to dress up their crazy ideas as genuine questions about - for example - my viewpoint on the world. I assumed your original question was sincere. Am I wrong and now you're trying to slip in questions about why I won't accept your evidence that there's a super secret force of super villains out there stealing our stuff?

Let's get this out in the open so you can stop stealing our lives: do you believe there is a super secret set of facts out there that you don't read in the mainstream press and to find them out, I have to talk with a small group of mostly young white american men? Are you really some long time member of the JREF who's been banned or laughed at so many times, you reregistered and are now pretending you're a new member with fresh questions? I ask this because it's so common here.

This is so common that I will repost this remark from our JREF friend Dave Rogers who recently had a similar run-in.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6951989#post6951989

Originally Posted by aaarrrggh
Please don't instantly assume everybody is out to lie to you. It's not very rational of you ;-)

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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers
On the contrary, it's solidly based in experience. A great many posters have come here with a post that resembles your OP in every detail - the statement of support for the conventional narrative, the example of skeptical behaviour in an unrelated area, followed by the citation of an attempted rebuttal by truthers of a counter-argument to some fine detail of one of their theories, and the suggestion that that citation, far beyond demonstrating (or, more usually, failing to demonstrate) that some truther theory is stupid not in every conceivable way but rather in every way but one, somehow suggests that the conventional narrative of 9/11 has some shortcomings. The pattern is so familiar that it's known locally as "the mark of Woo", and is usually traced to a sockpuppet of a former member.

As further evidence emerges, I may find that this impression is wrong, in which case I'll be happy to revise my conclusions, but you should be aware that conspiracy theorists pretending not to be conspiracy theorists, for their first few posts anyway, are common enough on this forum to be considered a cliché.

Dave

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gsm1988 said:

Using your definitions, the push for world government is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is real.

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Haha. You won’t find anyone here that thinks there is any push for a “world government” by the NWO (or anyone else for that matter).

gsm1988 said:

The Federal Reserve scam is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is a real scam.

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There is no Federal Reserve scam, you are misinformed. Stop believing everything you read on the internet. The Fed, like most central banks, is an authority of the government which conducts monetary policy to maintain stable economic growth, stable prices and currency exchange, regulate the banking sector etc. There is no conspiracy.

gsm1988 said:

Governments using climate change as a way to redistribute wealth and increase control over peoples' lives is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is real.

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Are you saying that AGW is not real? How is it a conspiracy when governments’ attempts to mitigate global warming are all out in the open?

gsm1988 said:

Yet I have seen all of these conspiracies get lumped in with conspiracy theories. I think that this diminishes the skeptic movement in some peoples' eyes, the constant need by some skeptics to discredit events taking place in the world which people can watch happen right before their very eyes.

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The only people who feel that this “diminishes” anything are conspiracy theorists, and as per usual, nobody cares what they think. And there is no “skeptic movement”.

So basically, what we’re saying is you’re completely wrong if you think there is a conspiracy re the Fed or one world government. So yes, you are a conspiracy theorist as described by myself and others here.

gsm1988 said:

Here's a question for you: why do you guys consider the federal reserve and arguments about the real goals of climate change legislation to be conspiracy theories, yet refuse to question the official Holocaust story. I'm not attacking the Holocaust, just wondering what your reasons are.

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Because the Federal Reserve conspiracy theories are nonsense and devoid of facts or logic, whereas the Holocaust is supported by irrefutable evidence. If you of the opinion that there is a similar amount of evidence substantiating the Fed CTs as there is underpinning our understanding of the Holocaust, you’re incorrect.

gsm1988 said:

If I posted the evidence for why I think the way I do, you would end up discrediting me and ignoring me and all of the resources I use.

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Why? And why do you think we'd treat you any better if unsupported claims is all you have?