Hi. I am obviously new to the board. I introduced myself in the new members thread. A majority of you here are obviously opposed to so called "conspiracy theories." I can respect that. Are there any so called "conspiracy theories" that you do believe in?
What do you guys believe?
- Thread starter gsm1988
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I'm sure there will be a wide variety of replies to this question. There really isn't much of a group-think vibe at this site. Some people will say that Megrahi was framed for the Pan Am Lockerbie bombing, others that maybe the mob was somehow mixed up in the Kennedy Assasinations and some people think that the numbers of Hotdogs in a packet compared to the number of buns in a packet is the real NWO smoking gun...
Thank you for your response Brainache. I guess that my problem with the skeptic community is that seemingly any explanation for happenings in the world that is outside of the "accepted" viewpoints is automatically dismissed as "conspiracy theories." For example, America has seen President after President, Congress after Congress, Senate after Senate, Republicans and Democrats take the majority countless times, yet nothing seems to ever change. The Bush and Obama presidencies are a great example. Obama has done absolutely nothing to change the course that Bush put this country on, and in my opinion has made things even worse in some ways. Despite the fact that nothing ever seems to change, people who believe that there is more than meets the eye in regards to events in the world are constantly derided and ridiculed as "conspiracy theorists", and are excluded from mainstream, "serious" conversation of the world's events. Why is this? I can understand skepticism when it comes to the 9/11 Truth movement, which I believe goes way too far sometimes, but some so-called conspiracies are not so crazy and are in fact true.
Ausmerican
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For example?
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
Yes, we all believe everything the government tells us. That's the bond that keeps us together.
Sceptic-PK
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I believe in plenty of conspiracies. Conspiracy theories on the other hand are basically defined by their unsubstantiated nature, hence I do not believe in any conspiracy theories.
Scott Sommers
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Even though I have 1400+ posts here, I would not call myself a member of the "skeptic community" or even a "debunker". I came here initially because I wanted information about 9/11 conspiracies and I stay here because it is a good source of ideas for research papers.
I don't know what you mean by "the accepted viewpoints." It's not a matter of 'us' and 'them'. There are vast disagreements between politicians, journalists, and academics who study the state of the world. What i have a problem with is ideas that brush aside these vast differences claiming the real problem has to do with secret things - some of which are so secret that only a small group of mostly not well-educated, young, white, American men know about.
"I can understand skepticism when it comes to the 9/11 Truth movement, which I believe goes way too far sometimes"
Only sometimes? Like which times? The times you disagree with? Why don't ask Judy Wood which times go too far?
"some so-called conspiracies are not so crazy"
Yes they are. And that's why they're conspiracy theories.
"and are in fact true."
No they're not. There are conspiracies. This happens regularly. But they are not conspiracy theories. And every single native speaker of English knows the difference. There are groups of people who work together to bring about goals, some of which are nefarious - like robbing banks or holding meetings. I am not a conspiracy theorist because I believe my boss is meeting with my managers preparing to fire me - or promote me. Although I do believe they are conspiring against me.
Your comments also point to one of the issues that steers me away from any of the explanations for world politics that get labeled as a 'conspiracy theory'. I'm not American and I don't live in North America. These so-called 'conspiracy theories' are so culturally American I can only imagine them making sense to people with little worldly experience - young white American men, for example. In all the theories that get discussed here, the USA runs the world and all these other governments seem to do what they say, go along with US interests, or don't know what's going on.
And watch your reply to this last point. You might just come across like one of these conspiracy theorists who believes in vast, secret, one world control by a force that hardly anyone has ever heard of - except a small group of young, white American
men.
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PhantomWolf
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From the outside something is quite obvious that is often missed by Americans themselves, there is not really a lot of difference between your Democrat and Republican parties.
The other major issue with getting governments to move, is that they are a little like supertankers, it takes a lot of time to shift their direction, and turning them 180 degrees isn't going to happen over night. Governments aren't just a President (Prime Minister) but rather include a huge number of civil workers and aides and hangers on that fill up the ranks, many of whom don't change as each new leader comes in and out. The main running of things is done by them and it takes time to get them to do things differently. For instance, Obama didn't fire all the top generals and appoint new ones when he came into office. As such, what major changes would you expect to see in their policies on Afghanistan?
The major issue I have with most CTs is that they simply aren't based on reality, they are based on some comic book or Hollywood created reality totally ignoring how things really work. This doesn't mean that conspriacies don't happen, they do, it's just that 9,999,999 out of 10 million, they don't happen in the fantasy ways that CTs would like to believe that they do.
I'm not American and I can tell you that your political situation is no conspiracy. It's a product of your current system.
-Politicians need money.
-Special interests are encouraged to contribute because of high returns on the dollar. They'd be derelict in their duties not to.
-Politicians pass laws that benefit their contributors as much as possible while still remaining viable for reelection.
It's a game of legalizes bribery and if the politicians don't play they don't win.
Thanks for the responses. I appreciate the explanation about the difference between conspiracies and conspiracy theories. I guess that there are certain issues that you would call conspiracy theories that I would call conspiracies. Using your definitions, the push for world government is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is real. The Federal Reserve scam is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is a real scam. Governments using climate change as a way to redistribute wealth and increase control over peoples' lives is a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory, because it is real. Yet I have seen all of these conspiracies get lumped in with conspiracy theories. I think that this diminishes the skeptic movement in some peoples' eyes, the constant need by some skeptics to discredit events taking place in the world which people can watch happen right before their very eyes.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I'm with Sceptic-PK on this.
Don't be fooled by the word "theory". Conspiracy theories are nothing like scientific theories.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
The difference between conspiracies and conspiracy theories is evidence. Are you going to present any evidence, or are you just going to make a lot of unsupported claims?
mysteronyx
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gsm1988, how is the fed a scam? What sources of information do you use to come to that conclusion?
How is climate change a method of redistributing wealth? What sources of information do you use to come to that conclusion?
How is climate change a method of redistributing wealth? What sources of information do you use to come to that conclusion?
Scott Sommers
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I think you're still not getting what I meant with the distinction between 'conspiracy' and 'conspiracy theory'. None of the examples you raised are conspiracies. If they were, we wouldn't be posting about them on the JREF.
There are events in the world. There are interpretations of these events. Some people ascribe the cause of these events to secret actions whose meaning we can only vaguely understand - like the Illuminati or secret Jewish/Masonic/CIA control. Your explanations of causation are not conspiracy theory explanations. They are political explanations. They involve no conspiracies at all, since almost all the events in them are open to public scrutiny. And that's how you know them.
The problem is that many people believe the political explanations because they also believe there is a secret explanation for them linking them to the local Masonic lodge or Jewish temple. These people then claim there are aspects of these political actions that no one except a small group of mostly young, white american males knows about. There are secret documents that are being ignored - The Protocol of the Elders of Zion. There are secret relationships between the powerful used to suppress meaningful information - this is claimed about the collapse of WTC 7.
That's what makes these conspiracies and conspiracy theories. Since the actions of the central government in the USA are extremely transparent and there are bazillions of journalist, academics, and generally nosy citizens watching who every significant member of this government talks with, sleeps with, or even knows.
Or do they only appear to be? Is it all an illusion? Is it really just a secret group that controls the world and makes it look this way?
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If I posted the evidence for why I think the way I do, you would end up discrediting me and ignoring me and all of the resources I use. I don't see the point. Here's a question for you: why do you guys consider the federal reserve and arguments about the real goals of climate change legislation to be conspiracy theories, yet refuse to question the official Holocaust story. I'm not attacking the Holocaust, just wondering what your reasons are.
If I am asked further, I will post some resources that explain my thinking on the fed and climate change legislation.
If I am asked further, I will post some resources that explain my thinking on the fed and climate change legislation.
Scott Sommers
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Maybe I misunderstood your post. It's a common thing here on JREF for real life conspiracy theorists to dress up their crazy ideas as genuine questions about - for example - my viewpoint on the world. I assumed your original question was sincere. Am I wrong and now you're trying to slip in questions about why I won't accept your evidence that there's a super secret force of super villains out there stealing our stuff?
Let's get this out in the open so you can stop stealing our lives: do you believe there is a super secret set of facts out there that you don't read in the mainstream press and to find them out, I have to talk with a small group of mostly young white american men? Are you really some long time member of the JREF who's been banned or laughed at so many times, you reregistered and are now pretending you're a new member with fresh questions? I ask this because it's so common here.
This is so common that I will repost this remark from our JREF friend Dave Rogers who recently had a similar run-in.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6951989#post6951989
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Sceptic-PK
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Haha. You won’t find anyone here that thinks there is any push for a “world government” by the NWO (or anyone else for that matter).
There is no Federal Reserve scam, you are misinformed. Stop believing everything you read on the internet. The Fed, like most central banks, is an authority of the government which conducts monetary policy to maintain stable economic growth, stable prices and currency exchange, regulate the banking sector etc. There is no conspiracy.
Are you saying that AGW is not real? How is it a conspiracy when governments’ attempts to mitigate global warming are all out in the open?
The only people who feel that this “diminishes” anything are conspiracy theorists, and as per usual, nobody cares what they think. And there is no “skeptic movement”.
So basically, what we’re saying is you’re completely wrong if you think there is a conspiracy re the Fed or one world government. So yes, you are a conspiracy theorist as described by myself and others here.
Sceptic-PK
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Because the Federal Reserve conspiracy theories are nonsense and devoid of facts or logic, whereas the Holocaust is supported by irrefutable evidence. If you of the opinion that there is a similar amount of evidence substantiating the Fed CTs as there is underpinning our understanding of the Holocaust, you’re incorrect.
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
Why? And why do you think we'd treat you any better if unsupported claims is all you have?
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Scott Sommers
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To be fair, he started out with a sincere request for beliefs about how the world works. I took him at that because it is a reasonable request. The problem is he is increasingly appearing to be a sock puppet for someone we all probably know.
gsm1988, the answer is that I am not willing to entertain the idea that secret groups of Jew/Freemasons/the CIA/reptilian aliens/blah, blah, blah really run the world, and that the only people who do seem to be a small group of mostly young white American (or Europeans, in the case of Jews) males. If it makes you feel good, keeps you off the kiddie porn or stops you from shoplifting, it's probably a good thing. But trying to convince me that a bunch of young kids have some secret information that I've completely missed, is just silly.
That's the answer to your first question. If your real question has to do with my assessment of your evidence for a secret Jewist-Alien hybrid that really runs the Fed, then buzz off and stop pretending this is a dialog.
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Ausmerican
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Global warming conspiracy? That would have to be the...
Biggest. Conspiracy. Ever.
I mean, how many scientists would they have to have on board, apart from the government personnel of multiple countries.
That is possibly the most ludicrous conspiracy theory I have heard of.
Biggest. Conspiracy. Ever.
I mean, how many scientists would they have to have on board, apart from the government personnel of multiple countries.
That is possibly the most ludicrous conspiracy theory I have heard of.
Scott Sommers
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That's what I mean. You have to be living a pretty isolated life to believe these things. But then, the USA is full of this demographic. and some of them even have college degrees, making them an intellectual leadership for this group.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
There are no conspiracy theories I "believe in". There are accounts of historical events which are on balance supported by the evidence, accounts that are neither supported nor contradicted, and accounts that on balance flatly contradict the evidence. Provisionally, and subject to contrary evidence arising, I accept the first, suspend judgement on the second, and reject the third class. Belief is for the religious to argue about.
Dave
Rolfe
Adult human female
What Dave said. Also, "you guys" isn't a monolithic group-think. Everybody is a person, and different people have different views on different issues.
Rolfe.
Rolfe.
I think you are mistaking questioning claims of a conspiracy theory with being opposed to conspiracy theories. They are numerous examples of actual conspiracies that have come to light. Often the only explanation for a series of events is a conspiracy and since conspiracies are just part of human behaviour there is nothing extraordinary in suggesting that a conspiracy may be the explanation.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
Some examples might be useful.
(a) Did Nixon's re-election team conspire to sabotage the Democratic campaign based on information obtained from bugging devices? Yes, quite certainly; the historical record is quite clear.
(b) Was the attack on the USS Maddox on August 4th a fiction constructed by the Johnson administration to promote public support for entry into the Vietnam War? Hard to say. It seems highly likely that no attack occurred that night. The accepted explanation is human error, not unusual in such circumstances. It's not impossible that Captain Herrick was operating under secret orders, also not unknown for naval officers. There is no evidence to prove it either way.
(c) Were the 9/11 attacks orchestrated by the US Government in a complex plan that involved the use of demolition explosives to collapse the WTC Twin Towers? No, quite certainly; all the significant evidence contradicts any such explanation.
No belief is required, just evidence and sound judgement.
Dave
(a) Did Nixon's re-election team conspire to sabotage the Democratic campaign based on information obtained from bugging devices? Yes, quite certainly; the historical record is quite clear.
(b) Was the attack on the USS Maddox on August 4th a fiction constructed by the Johnson administration to promote public support for entry into the Vietnam War? Hard to say. It seems highly likely that no attack occurred that night. The accepted explanation is human error, not unusual in such circumstances. It's not impossible that Captain Herrick was operating under secret orders, also not unknown for naval officers. There is no evidence to prove it either way.
(c) Were the 9/11 attacks orchestrated by the US Government in a complex plan that involved the use of demolition explosives to collapse the WTC Twin Towers? No, quite certainly; all the significant evidence contradicts any such explanation.
No belief is required, just evidence and sound judgement.
Dave
Gawdzilla Sama
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
Fuzzy question, I think. Conspiracy theorists like to toss in actual conspiracy to make their constructed conspiracies seem more likely. Actual conspiracies revealed by a flag-waving, carpet-chewing, truth-knowing conspiracy theorist to date: Zero.
Horatius
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Actually, if you posted good evidence, we'd give it due consideration, and if it was compelling, most of us would alter our position.
The problem is, very few "conspiracy theorists" ever provide good evidence. All they ever provide is insinuation, speculation, misrepresentation and outright lies.
So, do you think you have good evidence? If so, start a thread, and show it to us. But if it's the same old crap we've seen countless times before, then, yes, expect to be discredited. Because you'd deserve to be discredited at that point.
mysteronyx
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Why are you so sure that we would discredit and ignore you and your resources?
To answer your question, I don't dare question the Holocaust because I know very little about the event and the evidence for it. What I do know is it would be very difficult to explain where millions of people went had it not occurred. Also, I tend to trust it since the world went to war over it. I don't know much about climate change or the Fed, but I do know that most people disbelieve in their being conspiracies. So, that is why I question you about them.
Are your sources from sites like Infowars?
Gawdzilla Sama
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
Problem is the CTers don't discriminate between GOOD evidence and ANY OLD evidence. Without that filter they wind up touting BAD evidence and get upset when it is pointed out that their evidence is BAD. I have been debunking Pearl Harbor myths for decades now, and the inability to filter is the prime characteristic I've noted in CTers.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
What push for world government, by whom? Some people have openly advocated world government, but this is not even a conspiracy because it's not done in secret. Some supranational bodies, like the UN and the EU, openly exist; again, not a conspiracy.
The Federal Reserve is an economic institution whose existence, scope of action and methods are well known. Again, not a conspiracy. The use of the word "scam" is a value judgement, not a statement of fact.
Governments always redistribute wealth and take some measure of control over people's lives. That's what governments are for. Climate change is a reason why some types of control are needed. Yet again, this is public knowledge and not even a conspiracy.
Now, if you're arguing, for example, that there is no such thing as climate change and that governments have invented it as a fiction in order to increase control over peoples' lives, then, yes, that is a conspiracy theory. But I reject it, not because it's a conspiracy theory, but because it is contradicted by all the significant and relevant evidence.
What the skeptic movement does, when it's working correctly, is to subject claims such as these to the same level of skepticism as the more mainstream understanding that they seek to replace. Many of them, including what I suspect are the conjectures underlying the examples you've quoted above, fare very, very much worse under such scrutiny. Skeptics are then criticised by the True Believers for not sharing their double standards. To which we say, not our problem; show us convincing evidence and then we'll believe you. Just saying "Dude, it's so obvious" isn't good enough.
Dave
There also seems to be a naivety about how the world works; they see general incompetence, genuine mistakes and the sheer messiness of the real world as evidence that "something" is behind it all.
Papers go missing every single day, people write the wrong name down every single day, people forget something every single day - that doesn't mean that the NWO has its operators stealing your papers and altering them and using mind rays to make you forget things!
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Gawdzilla Sama
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
Evil master-minds who develop incredibly complex plots involving thousands and thousands of people, and then they forget to turn off the cameras when the deed is done. (Of course, the footage is "officially lost", but one valiant person has, at great risk, obtained a copy by imitating Hillary Clinton and has put it out where it will do the most good. That being Youtube, of course.)
aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
Untrue! Some are dismissed as being simply bat-crap crazy.
aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
They are actually quite good at filtering out evidence that disproves their beliefs.
NutCracker
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Nope. These theories are not rejected on the grounds of being "out of the accepted viewpoints," but rather on the grounds that any supporting evidence is lacking.
aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
I wouldn't even need any new evidence, just a theory that fits the existing evidence better than the prevailing theory.
Despite their name, "conspiracy theorists" never seem to have one...except for the really crazy ones, of course (google "repto-sapiens").
Gawdzilla Sama
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
