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Old 29th March 2012, 10:30 PM   #321
Nosi
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post
I'm 43 and chose to have no children because I believed this was coming. Anyone who has children can't point fingers at me.

Geoff
I too have not had any children. I agree that UE has a good point that a little one's future probably stinks today. You do know it costs close to a million bucks to raise a single healthy child if you do it on the cheap. Handicapped children can cost far more to bring up. It's a crap shoot when a woman is pregnant that a disabled child could happen.

However, my reason for avoiding motherhood isn't so much as fear of what's going on here on Earth but my body. For reasons I won't get into because I would derail the thread six ways from Sunday.
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Old 29th March 2012, 10:47 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
UE, can I ask you a question? Have you given up all hope in metaphysical phenomena?
Please tell me how metaphysical phenomena affects the condition of resources on Earth?
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Old 29th March 2012, 11:23 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
Finally, words to live by!

(I didn't know I was supposed to be gentle)
Horse apples! You enjoyed it like a pig enjoys mud.
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Old 30th March 2012, 04:32 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post

I don't give what's not yet been earned.
I'm sorry, but if you aren't willing to have this discussion based on mutual respect, then I can't be bothered to read the rest of your post. If you make disrespectful posts directed at me then I'll either ignore them or respond disrespectully.

Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander...
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Old 30th March 2012, 04:34 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
you know that 70 years ago the entire world was at war.....right ?
and 90 years before that the entire world was at war again and that shortly after that 3% of the worlds population died from the flu

or when was the last time one of your relatives was bombed in their own house?
see, not really all that bad is it
I don't know if that is a sarcastic post or a serious one. Right now it is not too bad because the system is being propped up with freshly-printed money. What is coming is going to be much worse than WWI and WWII combined (by which I mean total number of dead humans).
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Old 30th March 2012, 04:36 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Humm...
His think tank saw it coming, but his think tank is not part of mainstream economics. It is independent.
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Old 30th March 2012, 04:47 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post
I don't know if that is a sarcastic post or a serious one. Right now it is not too bad because the system is being propped up with freshly-printed money. What is coming is going to be much worse than WWI and WWII combined (by which I mean total number of dead humans).
One would almost think that you were looking forward to it, whatever it is.
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Old 30th March 2012, 04:53 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Nosi View Post
Please tell me how metaphysical phenomena affects the condition of resources on Earth?
There are potentially two different classes of purported "paranormal" phenomena. The first would be those that involve a direct breach of the laws of physics (e.g. a truly "free" energy or perpetual-motion machine). The second would be those that involve a serious breach of probability - something happening which is so improbable that the person it happens to interprets it as paranormal but which does not actually break any of the laws of physics. This second category would be possible under some interpretations of QM, but not possible under some others. The most controversial of them all would be MWI, because if MWI is true then there are guaranteed to be some timelines where whole sequences of unbelievably-improbable events happen, and yet it is still all down to pure randomness and not "paranormal" causality.

What I'm trying to say is this: it is physically possible for some sorts of paranormal phenomena to exist without breaking the laws of physics. However, while these phenomena can "affect the condition of the resources on earth", they can't affect them in ways which would lead to a physically-inconsistent state of reality. And that means that even if they exist they can't "save" us from our energy crisis, because at the end of the day the only thing that could save us would be the truly free energy or the perpetual motion machine, and these are prohibited by the plain old laws of newtonian energy conservation.

So to answer Limbo's question, I don't believe the first category of paranormal phenomena exist. Neither science nor personal experience leads me to believe that there exist any physics-busting paranormal phenomena of the sort required to save industrialised civilisation from a resource crisis. But the non-physics-busting sort of paranormal phenomena could still exist, and they could alter the situation by bringing about a change in people's perception of what is happening and influencing their response to it.

I personally wish that this sort of intervention wasn't necessary. I wish that the human race could get its act together, figure out what is happening, and collectively act to change things. Unfortunately this requires a level of optimism and faith in human nature that I can't quite manage. I suspect that things need to get quite a lot worse before most people will wake up to the reality of the situation modern civilisation finds itself in.
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Old 30th March 2012, 04:59 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
One would almost think that you were looking forward to it, whatever it is.
"IT" is the malthusian die-off of this massive glut of human beings.

I'm neither looking forward to it nor fearing it. I accepted that it was coming, and probably in my lifetime, well over two decades ago. That is a lot of time to get used to the idea. I don't see it in terms of "good" or "bad" because for the most part it is just the natural world doing what the natural world does. Some other species go through massive population boom-and-bust cycles due to changes in the prevailing conditions and we don't see that as good or bad because nature is a-moral. We only see this as "bad" because we're humans and we tend to think of humans as special and "above nature." And if I saw it as "good" then it could only be because it would be good for future generations of humans, again because nature is a-moral.

Put simply: I can't say it is good or bad. It just *IS*. It is going to happen because the laws of physics, combined with the reality of human society and politics, dictates that has to happen. There's no point in looking forward to it or panicking about it. We just have to accept it and prepare for it the best we can. And if some people want to go on pretending it isn't going to happen for a bit longer, then that's up to them. In a way I don't blame them, because accepting it means, for a lot of people, abandoning a lot of hopes and dreams they had about the future.
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Old 30th March 2012, 05:12 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post
I don't know if that is a sarcastic post or a serious one. Right now it is not too bad because the system is being propped up with freshly-printed money. What is coming is going to be much worse than WWI and WWII combined (by which I mean total number of dead humans).
Prove it. Now.
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Old 30th March 2012, 05:26 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Johny2x4 View Post
Prove it. Now.
How on earth could anyone go about "proving" a speculative prediction about what is likely to happen to human population numbers due to the coming resources crisis?

On one level it is completely obvious. Just look at the way human civilisation is growing, and depends on more growth just to survive. Then observe that the planet we live on is finite. Unless you believe there is going to shortly be an unprecedented change in human behaviour (e.g. no more wars) then some sort of catastrophe is inevitable.

Parroting the words "Prove it!" is not a sensible response to the above paragraph.
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Old 30th March 2012, 05:31 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post
How on earth could anyone go about "proving" a speculative prediction about what is likely to happen to human population numbers due to the coming resources crisis?

On one level it is completely obvious. Just look at the way human civilisation is growing, and depends on more growth just to survive. Then observe that the planet we live on is finite. Unless you believe there is going to shortly be an unprecedented change in human behaviour (e.g. no more wars) then some sort of catastrophe is inevitable.

Parroting the words "Prove it!" is not a sensible response to the above paragraph.
Translation: I got nothing to base my speculative claims and instead gonna keep parroting the same doom mantra all over again.
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Old 30th March 2012, 07:01 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post
On one level it is completely obvious. Just look at the way human civilisation is growing, and depends on more growth just to survive.
Why would it? Surely most of us would be interested in better and more affordable stuff, but if you freeze the economy in time, we still have what we have.

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Then observe that the planet we live on is finite.
Finite != insufficient.

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Unless you believe there is going to shortly be an unprecedented change in human behaviour (e.g. no more wars) then some sort of catastrophe is inevitable.
"Some sort of catastrophe" is a pretty weak prediction even by newspaper horoscope standards.
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Old 30th March 2012, 07:19 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by ClarkDickensen View Post
Why would it? Surely most of us would be interested in better and more affordable stuff, but if you freeze the economy in time, we still have what we have.
That would be great if it wasn't for the fact that our numbers are still increasing rapidly and nearly all of us want a better standard of living.

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Finite != insufficient.
Of course. If we stop needing/trying to consume more then half the battle is won. I just don't see us stopping needing/trying to consume more.

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"Some sort of catastrophe" is a pretty weak prediction even by newspaper horoscope standards.
I mean somehow lots of humans are going to end up dead. What I don't know is whether the primary mechanism will be war, disease, famine, all three, or something else.

I'd personally put my money on all three.
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Old 30th March 2012, 07:51 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post

I mean somehow lots of humans are going to end up dead. What I don't know is whether the primary mechanism will be war, disease, famine, all three, or something else.

I'd personally put my money on all three.
And this will be the first time that those three things will take place on this planet.
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Old 30th March 2012, 07:52 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post
Of course. If we stop needing/trying to consume more then half the battle is won. I just don't see us stopping needing/trying to consume more.
That poses a number of questions. What do we want to consume and why? Or rather, if we try to reduce consumption, is the kind of market economy we're running right now really a sensible M.O.? Bombarding people with advertisements and telling them afterwards not to buy so much stuff doesn't sound like a well-thought-out strategy.

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I mean somehow lots of humans are going to end up dead. What I don't know is whether the primary mechanism will be war, disease, famine, all three, or something else.
If you keep the when & where vague enough, the likelihood of that happening should be 1.
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Old 30th March 2012, 08:07 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by ClarkDickensen View Post


If you keep the when & where vague enough, the likelihood of that happening should be 1.
UE thinks that we will all be living in caves by 2016. At least that is the impression I get. He is very vague about what he is prophesying. There will be wars in the future, there may be famines but mankind has always suffered from calamities. He seems to idolize this Ahmed character who seems to know more about economics and politics than the rest of the world put together.
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Old 30th March 2012, 08:31 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by ClarkDickensen View Post
That poses a number of questions. What do we want to consume and why?
Two answers to that.

1) Our genes naturally encourage us to be greedy and to desire status symbols, etc... This was once useful, but it is counter-productive in the richer countries, manifesting at its most extreme in examples like obesity in the United States.

2) The existing economic system actively makes this natural tendency worse, because consumption is considered to be good on the grounds that it keeps the economy going. The economic system is designed to maximise profit, and to deliver wealth into the hands of the 1%. Ecological sustainability has nothing to do with profits. It's not on the corporate/business agenda, apart from as a means of selling things to certain parts of their customer base (leading to "greenwash.")

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Or rather, if we try to reduce consumption, is the kind of market economy we're running right now really a sensible M.O.?
No, obviously.

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Bombarding people with advertisements and telling them afterwards not to buy so much stuff doesn't sound like a well-thought-out strategy.
Exactly. Well...it's well thought out if your goal is to maximise the profits of the corporation you are in charge of, and you don't care about the long-term or wider consequences.

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If you keep the when & where vague enough, the likelihood of that happening should be 1.
I can see no way the existing monetary system can be kept going beyond 2015, but politics is likely to mean it collapses sooner than that. By 2020, nobody will be left doubting that a major transition has started.
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Old 30th March 2012, 09:03 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post


I can see no way the existing monetary system can be kept going beyond 2015,.
That is merely your opinion. No evidence, and please do not tell me to watch that biased video again.
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Old 30th March 2012, 09:14 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post


I can see no way the existing monetary system can be kept going beyond 2015, but politics is likely to mean it collapses sooner than that. By 2020, nobody will be left doubting that a major transition has started.
You are completely divorced from reality.
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Old 30th March 2012, 09:33 AM   #341
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See you all in 2020! I would offer to bet UE that things will be more or less the same by then, but he wouldn't take it.
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Old 30th March 2012, 09:36 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
See you all in 2020! I would offer to bet UE that things will be more or less the same by then, but he wouldn't take it.
Party in dafydd´s cave!
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Old 30th March 2012, 09:53 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Johny2x4 View Post
Party in dafydd´s cave!
Bring your own rush lights and the dress code is loincloths or animal skins if it turns cold.
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Old 30th March 2012, 10:02 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
That is merely your opinion. No evidence, and please do not tell me to watch that biased video again.
To repeat a point I have made to you again and again, but you apparently can't quite grasp...

Yes, it is merely my opinion, and your opinion is merely yours. I don't know why you think there is such a huge problem with this. What makes you think I give a flying fart whether or not you - some random person on the internet whose opinion I don't happen to be interested in, refuses to believe it on the grounds that I can't provide scientific proof.

In short: if after not bothering to look at the evidence I supplied, you don't believe what I'm telling you, then that's your problem, not mine. I did not come here because I wanted to win the approval of people like you. There are actually other people taking part in this discussion who have something to say that is interesting and worth reading. All you are capable of contributing are the words "prove it" and "no evidence", which is of no interest to anybody but yourself.

In fact, your agenda would appear to be to fill this thread up with as much worthless babble as possible, just to make sure nobody else is able to have a decent discussion about the actual topic.
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Old 30th March 2012, 10:03 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post
To repeat a point I have made to you again and again, but you apparently can't quite grasp...

Yes, it is merely my opinion, and your opinion is merely yours. I don't know why you think there is such a huge problem with this. What makes you think I give a flying fart whether or not you - some random person on the internet whose opinion I don't happen to be interested in, refuses to believe it on the grounds that I can't provide scientific proof.

In short: if you don't believe what I'm telling you then that's your problem, not mine. I did not come here because I wanted to win the approval of people like you. There are actually other people taking part in this discussion who have something to say that is interesting and worth reading. All you are capable of contributing are the words "prove it" and "no evidence", which is of no interest to anybody but yourself.
You are the one making the claim. You seem to find that hard to grasp. You are just a random doom monger on the internet. Nothing new here.

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Old 30th March 2012, 10:04 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Nosi View Post
Horse apples! You enjoyed it like a pig enjoys mud.

Proudly, I wallow and snort in delight.
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Old 30th March 2012, 10:05 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post
There are potentially two different classes of purported "paranormal" phenomena. The first would be those that involve a direct breach of the laws of physics (e.g. a truly "free" energy or perpetual-motion machine). The second would be those that involve a serious breach of probability - something happening which is so improbable that the person it happens to interprets it as paranormal but which does not actually break any of the laws of physics. This second category would be possible under some interpretations of QM, but not possible under some others. The most controversial of them all would be MWI, because if MWI is true then there are guaranteed to be some timelines where whole sequences of unbelievably-improbable events happen, and yet it is still all down to pure randomness and not "paranormal" causality.

What I'm trying to say is this: it is physically possible for some sorts of paranormal phenomena to exist without breaking the laws of physics. However, while these phenomena can "affect the condition of the resources on earth", they can't affect them in ways which would lead to a physically-inconsistent state of reality. And that means that even if they exist they can't "save" us from our energy crisis, because at the end of the day the only thing that could save us would be the truly free energy or the perpetual motion machine, and these are prohibited by the plain old laws of newtonian energy conservation.

So to answer Limbo's question, I don't believe the first category of paranormal phenomena exist. Neither science nor personal experience leads me to believe that there exist any physics-busting paranormal phenomena of the sort required to save industrialised civilisation from a resource crisis. But the non-physics-busting sort of paranormal phenomena could still exist, and they could alter the situation by bringing about a change in people's perception of what is happening and influencing their response to it.

I personally wish that this sort of intervention wasn't necessary. I wish that the human race could get its act together, figure out what is happening, and collectively act to change things. Unfortunately this requires a level of optimism and faith in human nature that I can't quite manage. I suspect that things need to get quite a lot worse before most people will wake up to the reality of the situation modern civilisation finds itself in.

Utter nonsense.

You should apologize.
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Old 30th March 2012, 10:08 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Johny2x4 View Post
You are completely divorced from reality.

I quite understand why reality initiated the divorce.
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Old 30th March 2012, 10:13 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
I quite understand why reality initiated the divorce.
Aw c'mon. We're all in denial. We're all doomed.
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Old 30th March 2012, 10:25 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Aw c'mon. We're all in denial. We're all doomed.

You say that as though it were a bad thing.
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Old 30th March 2012, 10:32 AM   #351
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Paul Gilding: The Earth is full: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZT6Y...feature=relmfu

Paul Gilding is a scientist. Strangely enough he's saying exactly what Nafeez Ahmed says: we need to look at the whole system, and only then can we comprehend the true scale of what is coming. Talk recorded this year.

Anyone who dismisses this as "woo" is a first class idiot.
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Old 30th March 2012, 10:52 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post
Paul Gilding: The Earth is full: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZT6Y...feature=relmfu

Paul Gilding is a scientist. Strangely enough he's saying exactly what Nafeez Ahmed says: we need to look at the whole system, and only then can we comprehend the true scale of what is coming. Talk recorded this year.

Anyone who dismisses this as "woo" is a first class idiot.
Not woo, doom mongering. This is pointless. See you in 2020. Goodbye and enjoy wallowing in your pit of despair. I'll just get on with doing the best I can for me and mine. I won't be telling my grandson that we are heading down the toilet.

Last edited by dafydd; 30th March 2012 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 30th March 2012, 11:00 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post
Paul Gilding: The Earth is full: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZT6Y...feature=relmfu

Paul Gilding is a scientist. Strangely enough he's saying exactly what Nafeez Ahmed says: we need to look at the whole system, and only then can we comprehend the true scale of what is coming. Talk recorded this year.

Anyone who dismisses this as "woo" is a first class idiot.
Blablabha, I love how the scientist and economics you chooses re the ones correct. Not very biased are we?


Anywho good luck with the doom and gloom buddy.
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Old 30th March 2012, 11:17 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Johny2x4 View Post
Blablabha, I love how the scientist and economics you chooses re the ones correct.
Is this supposed to be an example of critical thinking?
Is it supposed to be an example of examining the scientific evidence before making your mind up?

Or is it an example or stubbornly refusing either to think critically or gather evidence so you don't have to bother changing your mind about anything?

As I said, anybody who dismisses this (and you didn't call it "woo", but you did dismiss it out of hand - you already "knew" it wasn't worth watching without watching it) is a first class idiot. They are an idiot because (a) this is based on science, not politics or religion and (b) it is, as explained in the video, likely to mean that most of what you currently believe about the future is wrong.

You are behaving exactly like the archetypal ostrich (with added nastiness), and yet you pride yourself on your capacity to think freely and make your decisions based on evidence!
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Old 30th March 2012, 11:18 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Not woo, doom mongering.
No dafydd, it's.............*********SCIENCE*********.

Quote:
This is pointless.
YOU are pointless.

Quote:
See you in 2020. Goodbye and enjoy wallowing in your pit of despair. I'll just get on with doing the best I can for me and mine. I won't be telling my grandson that we are heading down the toilet.
Thank God for small mercies. Bye then.
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Old 30th March 2012, 11:22 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant View Post
Is this supposed to be an example of critical thinking?
Is it supposed to be an example of examining the scientific evidence before making your mind up?

Or is it an example or stubbornly refusing either to think critically or gather evidence so you don't have to bother changing your mind about anything?

As I said, anybody who dismisses this (and you didn't call it "woo", but you did dismiss it out of hand - you already "knew" it wasn't worth watching without watching it) is a first class idiot. They are an idiot because (a) this is based on science, not politics or religion and (b) it is, as explained in the video, likely to mean that most of what you currently believe about the future is wrong.

You are behaving exactly like the archetypal ostrich (with added nastiness), and yet you pride yourself on your capacity to think freely and make your decisions based on evidence!
Irony, thy name is UE.
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Old 30th March 2012, 11:37 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Johny2x4 View Post
Irony, thy name is UE.
Do you think you can post a witty one liner and fool all the people reading this that you actually "won" this exchange?

Dafydd and yourself have demanded over and over again that I "prove" what I'm saying.

So I post a short video where a scientist explains, using science, why what I'm saying is true.

The response from the pair of you has been:

(a) not watching it and (b) dismissing it because the scientist in question happened to agree with me.

I mean....the level stupidity being displayed here is mind-boggling. You've demanded evidence, I provided scientific evidence, and you've dismissed it on the grounds that since it backs up my claims, it must be wrong!

Then, to top it all off, you accuse ME of "irony".

Meanwhile, the rest of the people on this board are either ignoring this thread completely, or for some reason don't feel compelled to intervene and explain to you how stupid your behaviour is, which doesn't say much for them either.
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Last edited by UndercoverElephant; 30th March 2012 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 30th March 2012, 11:39 AM   #358
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Do you really want to know why people ignore this thread? Cause you´re plum loco. And a youtube video is not evidence of ANYTHING.

It´s on the same level as "Alex Jones" evidence. Listen cupcake, bing independent is not a automatically "is right" card as much as you want to believe it.

I love how you are so quick to rush to insults. Methinks you are not really that sure of your beliefs

Last edited by Johny2x4; 30th March 2012 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 30th March 2012, 11:41 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Johny2x4 View Post
Do you really want to know why people ignore this thread? Cause you´re plum loco.

And your evidence is on the same level as "Alex Jones" evidence. Listen cupcake, bing independent is not a automatically "is right" card as much as you want to believe it.

I love how you are so quick to rush to insults. Methinks you are not really that sure oif your beliefs
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Last edited by kmortis; 31st March 2012 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 30th March 2012, 11:45 AM   #360
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UE - We mean different things by 'science', you are wrong, and your delusions do not concern me.

If everything is about to collapse, that is ok.

I only hope that cats outlast people.
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