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Old 28th March 2004, 10:16 AM   #1
KelvinG
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The energy never dies argument

I'm constantly hearing the argument from those who believe in an afterlife that since the body contains energy, when the body dies energy is released. Since this energy doesn't die, what becomes of it.
To them, this is possible evidence that a "soul" or "spirit" survives the death of the physical body.

I realized that I've never had a decent rebuttal to this line of thinking. Now, that doesn't mean I believe what they are saying, but I don't know really know what to counter it either.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me. Is energy indeed released from the body when you die? If so, how much and in what form? Is it true that this energy never dies?

These may sound like simplistic questions, but I've never professed to be a genius in the area of psychics and biology.
Come on smart people! Help me out!
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Old 28th March 2004, 10:30 AM   #2
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I dunno either. They are sort of saying that if I throw a log on the fire, a tree will appear in heaven somewhere.
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Old 28th March 2004, 10:30 AM   #3
Some Friggin Guy
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I'm not a scientist, but here is what logic tells me:

Energy, in the human body, is in the form of bio-chemical reactions, which continue to require fuel to occur. This is why we eat. The energy is stored in our cells unless we actively use that energy.

When we die, the energy is still stored in our cells and is then transferred to whatever biological organism decideds to eat out at the human-buffet.

The energy doesn't disappear, it is transferred to that which causes our decay.
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Old 28th March 2004, 10:32 AM   #4
Phil
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Re: The energy never dies argument

Quote:
Originally posted by KelvinG
I'm constantly hearing the argument from those who believe in an afterlife that since the body contains energy, when the body dies energy is released. Since this energy doesn't die, what becomes of it.
To them, this is possible evidence that a "soul" or "spirit" survives the death of the physical body.

I realized that I've never had a decent rebuttal to this line of thinking. Now, that doesn't mean I believe what they are saying, but I don't know really know what to counter it either.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me. Is energy indeed released from the body when you die? If so, how much and in what form? Is it true that this energy never dies?

These may sound like simplistic questions, but I've never professed to be a genius in the area of psychics and biology.
Come on smart people! Help me out!
I'm no genius either, but lots of different types of energy are generated in the universe that aren't equated with a soul. I would ask these people what makes them think that the energy released at death (if in fact it happens that way) would somehow retain awareness, or consciousness (i.e. experience an 'afterlife').
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Old 28th March 2004, 10:44 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy
Energy, in the human body, is in the form of bio-chemical reactions, which continue to require fuel to occur. This is why we eat.
Exactly. This is why we give death row inmates a last meal -- so their souls have enough energy to go to hell.

Honestly, you could counter it with "What kind of energy is it? Strong? Weak? Electromagnetic? Pray tell, would it be gravitational? Are there any instruments that can measure it? Is it partical or wave energy?"

Guaranteed, this will not shut them up. They will probably counter with one of two things:

a) "Science can't measure it. It's outside the realm of science." Then they will go into some diatribe about how a simple flashlight would have seemed like magic 200 years ago.

b) They will go into the bit about the human soul weighing 21 ounces. Show them the snopes link debunking this. I'd get you the link, but I think I'm coming down with something. I should go lie down.

Ta.
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Old 28th March 2004, 10:48 AM   #6
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Ever see a corpse with a personality? So what is it about consciousness if it isn't the means by which we define reailty? How would we know we exist without it? Is it possible that when we pass on it goes on to define a new reality?
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Old 28th March 2004, 12:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me. Is energy indeed released from the body when you die? If so, how much and in what form? Is it true that this energy never dies?
How about this:
Each organism is an organized collection of nutrients, some water, and a few minerals. The 'energy' of the living organism is chemical. We eat, we digest, we oxidize. When we die, the organization ceases to function and falls apart. No more eating, no more digestion, no more energy.
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Old 28th March 2004, 12:38 PM   #8
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Re: The energy never dies argument

Quote:
Originally posted by KelvinG
I'm constantly hearing the argument from those who believe in an afterlife that since the body contains energy, when the body dies energy is released. Since this energy doesn't die, what becomes of it.
I would like to begin addressing this topic somewhat sensibly. Then veer off.

In early religions, among the First Gods were Earth and Sky. They were opposites and made for each other or by the other. As opposites they can represent the realms of Change and the Ideal or evil and good or corrupt and incorrupt. Human beings like to think of themselves as children of the sky god rather than merely bubbles on the scum of Earthly existence.

We seem susceptible to the idea of a sky god. The real world is filled with danger and the unknown and the Sky god watches over all holding up the sun and the moon and granting food for another day. When presented warmly, in sunshine and rain, we know He's on our side.

My own metaphor would be a Sky god who is like a storm cloud which drops little tornados all the way to the earth. These tornados pick up some of the earth and roar through creation and time redistributing nature with glee. So the tornado as "life", the animating influence, is from the sky god and the earth and water components that make us up is from the Earth god. Our physical attributes and our thoughts and past are suspended in the vortex.

When we die our Earth components go back to the Earth to be reused and our tornado animating force is pulled back into the sky. Now many of you are wondering if the tornado lives in the cloud forevermore. No - the sky god redistributes all that it is just as the Earth god redistributes her atoms into rocks, trees, water, fish, air, birds, and people. So each tornado forms as required from the confluence of all, even the spent, winds - we are sourced and sinked into that confluence of sky god mystery storm.

This is all proven by what science might call - the "undiscovered energy" theory. Did I say proven? Well it will be proven when they discover the undiscovered energy. C'mon, have a little faith, otherwise you're stuck will a failure mindset.... how unscientific and self-defeating is it to be trying to discover the "nonexistent energy"? Besides, I doubt they're even looking for vortex energy; mysterious, spiritual, vortex energy. I think that explains why nobody has found it. And since nobody has discovered the undiscovered energy it kinda proves my theory.

So yah, if I'm choosing what energy leaves the body at death, I'm voting for Sky god, storm cloud, tornado animating, mysterious vortex, aka. the undiscovered energy. It's really the only thing that makes sense. Don't you see, to escape the inevitabilities inherent in my metaphor you would have to deny the reality of the sky god. AND YOU CAN"T PROVE THAT!

Oh yah, anybody who pushes a fire god metaphor is, IMHO, a crank.
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Old 28th March 2004, 01:18 PM   #9
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Re: The energy never dies argument

Quote:
Originally posted by KelvinG
I'm constantly hearing the argument from those who believe in an afterlife that since the body contains energy, when the body dies energy is released. Since this energy doesn't die, what becomes of it.
To them, this is possible evidence that a "soul" or "spirit" survives the death of the physical body.

I realized that I've never had a decent rebuttal to this line of thinking. Now, that doesn't mean I believe what they are saying, but I don't know really know what to counter it either.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me. Is energy indeed released from the body when you die? If so, how much and in what form? Is it true that this energy never dies?

These may sound like simplistic questions, but I've never professed to be a genius in the area of psychics and biology.
Come on smart people! Help me out!
When used with reference to the mind, energy is a metaphor. It is related to metaphors like "blow off steam", "blowing a fuse", and so on. Acting as if energy of the mind is analogous to energy of physical systems, leads to overextended metaphors of "the energy has to go somewhere".

But what people sometimes don're realize quickly is that there are alternatives to "blowing off steam" that take care of the "energy" without "releasing" it.
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Old 28th March 2004, 01:29 PM   #10
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The way it was 'explained' to me in another forum was that:

1. Your brain emits electromagnetic radiation.

2. Electromagnetic radiation radiates outwards at the speed of light.

3. Therefore, your every thought will radiate forever into the universe.

Oh, how pretty!

Never mind that the signal-to-noise ratio for that radiation will be utter garbage, and that the EM that escapes your skull is little better than noise its self compared to what is going on inside the head to begin with.

http://vv.carleton.ca/~neil/neural/neuron-a.html
Memories are clearly stored in physical structures. In the interconnection of neurons, and in proteins that shape these connections. These define how signals are processed in the brain (i.e., how you react to and "think" about things).

So, we have "signal processing and computation" or "signal processing and computation PLUS invisible and undetectable 'mystical energy' that has no apparent effect, either".

The simpler of the two seems to be the former.
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Old 28th March 2004, 01:37 PM   #11
Martin
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Computer.

Sledgehammer.

Energy release.

Where do all the programs go? Silicon heaven?
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Old 28th March 2004, 01:38 PM   #12
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It is true that energy never dies.

The first law of thermodynamics (simplified): Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed.

But where I think much of the confusion lies is that in this case, a very strict definition of energy is used, the following being a basic one, with som etypes of energy.

Energy: the capacity to do work (or produce heat).

Kinetic energy: the energy of motion.
Thermal energy: submicroscopic particles in motion.
Mechanical energy: macroscopic objects in motion.
Electrical energy: movement of electrons through a conductor.
Sound energy: compression/expansion of spaces between molecules.

Potential energy: the energy of position; stored energy.
Chemical potential energy: position of electrons relative to atomic nuclei in bound atoms.
Gravitational energy: position of an object in a gravitational field.
Electrostatic energy: relative position of charged particles.


My guess is that people putting forth this argument tend to be uneducated in physics(BTW, I am not trying to be disrespectful) and don't know the difference between the scientific use of the word energy, as is used in the laws of thermodynamics, and other uses of the word, such as a dynamic quality <narrative energy>.

Disclaimer: I am not any type of scientician, just curious about such matters.
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Old 28th March 2004, 02:44 PM   #13
hammegk
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Quote:
Originally posted by rustypouch


My guess is that people putting forth this argument tend to be uneducated in physics(BTW, I am not trying to be disrespectful) and don't know the difference between the scientific use of the word energy, as is used in the laws of thermodynamics, and other uses of the word, such as a dynamic quality <narrative energy>.
Or you might equally likely discover that our physics geniuses here (and we have a few) have no more idea how to define "energy" than you do.

Thanks for listing nine of the forms it shows itself as.
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Old 28th March 2004, 02:51 PM   #14
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Sure the body needs energy to function, and of course we get this energy with the food we eat.

The reactions that take place in our body are what we call metabolism. There are two kinds: anabolism and catabolism. Basically, the difference is that we use one of them to break the nutrients in simpler molecules and get energy and the other to make more complex molecules, i.e., to build our muscles...

The second kind needs of course the energy generated in the first. But this energy is not a magical thing that floats out of our body when we die. Basically, we store the energy we need in molecules called ATP. How can we store energy? The answer is that these molecules have three very energetic chemical links that release a lot of energy when broken. They are the cellular equivalent of the coal we burn in a thermal plant, for example. This process takes place in our cells whenever we need to perform a certain task, be it running, jumping or simply pumping blood through our veins.

When we die we stop running, jumping and pumping blood, all the chemical reactions in our cells stop. This means we no longer break this links to free the energy stored there... the energy doesn't go anywhere and of course it doesn't disappear or float away to a magical land. Of course after we are dead there are several organisms happy to "process" our body and use us as their own energy source, but that's another story...
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Old 28th March 2004, 02:59 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by hammegk


Or you might equally likely discover that our physics geniuses here (and we have a few) have no more idea how to define "energy" than you do.

Thanks for listing nine of the forms it shows itself as.
I recommend the 4th chapter of the wonderful Feynman Lectures on Physics to anyone that wishes to know what energy is. In it, the concept is introduced with a metaphor that involves Dennis the Menace and some blocks...

Quote:
It is important to realize that in physics today we have no knowledge of what energy is. We do not have a picture that energy comes in little blobs of a definite amount. It is not that way. However there are formulas for calculating some numerical quantity and when we add it all together it gives (...) always the same number. It is an abstract thing that tells us the mechanism or the reasons for the various formulas.
That is, energy is not made of anything really. It is just a number that doesn't change whatever we do to a system (ans its surroundigs) It can be distributed in different ways (chemical, nuclear, mechanical...) but if we add all of the contributtions we always get the same number.
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Old 28th March 2004, 05:10 PM   #16
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These sorts of people tend to assume the existance of some sort of "spirtual energy."

Of course, (1) there's no such thing and (2) even if it did, spiritual energy could be just be transferred into heat energy like most energy ends up being.

Unless... Unless spiritual energy IS heat energy. ALL HAIL THE DIVINE SPIRITUAL SPACE HEATER!!!



(I'm sure some kook out there has managed to equate heat energy with spiritual energy.)
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Old 28th March 2004, 05:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by rustypouch

It is true that energy never dies.

The first law of thermodynamics (simplified): Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed.
So where was all this energy before the Big Bang? Is it possible that this could be the very thing we refer to as immaterial, thus leaving us with the notion that God existed prior to the Big Bang?
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Old 28th March 2004, 05:46 PM   #18
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Of course heat energy is spiritual energy. What did you think them hell fires was made of?
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Old 28th March 2004, 05:51 PM   #19
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
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Let's say the soul energy does leave my body when I die. 21 grams and all that. I still have two questions:

1. How was it organized into my soul while I was still alive?

2. How does it remain coherently organized after it leaves my body? In particular, how does it prevent itself from simply radiating in all directions?

~~ Paul
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Old 28th March 2004, 05:53 PM   #20
hammegk
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fendetestas


I recommend the 4th chapter of the wonderful Feynman Lectures on Physics to anyone that wishes to know what energy is. In it, the concept is introduced with a metaphor that involves Dennis the Menace and some blocks...
I've read it, thanks, and find it a useful analogy. Of course it doesn't even attempt an answer.

And note I have no more idea what spiritual energy could possibly mean than anyone else, nor do I posit something (usually) called a soul.
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Old 28th March 2004, 05:58 PM   #21
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Re: The energy never dies argument

Quote:
Originally posted by KelvinG
I'm constantly hearing the argument from those who believe in an afterlife that since the body contains energy, when the body dies energy is released. Since this energy doesn't die, what becomes of it.
To them, this is possible evidence that a "soul" or "spirit" survives the death of the physical body.

I realized that I've never had a decent rebuttal to this line of thinking. Now, that doesn't mean I believe what they are saying, but I don't know really know what to counter it either.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me. Is energy indeed released from the body when you die? If so, how much and in what form? Is it true that this energy never dies?

These may sound like simplistic questions, but I've never professed to be a genius in the area of psychics and biology.
Come on smart people! Help me out!
I think it can simplified best like this:

"Spirit Energy" is a fundamentally different concept than energy in Physical Mechanics. Most people equate "Spirit Energy" as something which is intangible/indivisible/personal, whereas physical energy is the mutual opposite. That makes the entire "energy is never destroyed, therefore souls exist" argument incoherent to begin with.

Furthermore, if you wish to treat "Spirit Energy" as the Physical Energy, consider a few questions: E=mc^2, so how much of this "Spiritual Energy" can be transformed into mass. You might here some nonsense about "21 grams", but anyone with a highschool understanding of Physics and dismantle the "Spiritual Energy" bit.

Or you can try a different approach: The Second Law of Thermodynamics. You can say all the energy in the body is transferred to other systems, and eventually it will become nothing but useless heat.
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Old 28th March 2004, 06:02 PM   #22
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The simplest definition of energy is "the capacity to do work". In a more sophisticated sense, energy is a property of physical systems that is conserved and is involved in the exertion of a force.

If anyone would like a more formal definition, you can always check the dictionary or read a physics textbook; I'm quite confident that their precise and formal definitions of the term are basically compatible with its usage in these forums.
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Old 28th March 2004, 06:20 PM   #23
hammegk
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Now if someone will just define "work". Then we can move on to "basically" and "compatible". Of course "energy" won't get defined. Damn languages.

Or you could read a physics text; yeah, that's the ticket!

Yahweh: If you are around to watch the heat-death of the universe, will your attitude about the uselessness of heat be so cavalier?

Paul: 21 grams.... that's a lovely straw-person.... perhaps you can debunk it?
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Old 28th March 2004, 06:25 PM   #24
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The soul is a property. It cannot be defined in terms of energy since it has no composition of any kind.
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Old 28th March 2004, 06:31 PM   #25
hammegk
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A property? Like "life" is a property? But what is it a property of?
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Old 28th March 2004, 06:40 PM   #26
c4ts
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Quote:
Originally posted by hammegk
A property? Like "life" is a property? But what is it a property of?
A property of living things. Like human beings, for example. Or plants. Just as long as it can be said to do things that are particular to it.
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Old 28th March 2004, 06:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fendetestas
I recommend the 4th chapter of the wonderful Feynman Lectures on Physics to anyone that wishes to know what energy is.
Ditto.

If I may make a slight correction to your quote, though . . .<blockquote>It is an abstract thing in that it does not tell us the mechanism or the reasons for the various formulas.</blockquote>
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Old 28th March 2004, 07:07 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by hammegk
Now if someone will just define "work".
My pleasure. It's the integral of the dot product of force and displacement.
Quote:
Of course "energy" won't get defined. Damn languages.
You say you've read Feynman's discussion of energy, but I think you haven't understood it. His point is that "energy" does not have a definition of the type you're looking for.
Quote:
Or you could read a physics text; yeah, that's the ticket!
Reading a text written by a physicist, in which he describes what he means by the word "energy", is certainly a good idea if you want to know what physicists mean by the word "energy".

Am I wrong in thinking that your comment was intended to be sarcastic? If it was sarcastic, could you explain what you dislike about the suggestion to read a physics text? I think it's an excellent suggestion.
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Old 28th March 2004, 07:10 PM   #29
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I never have received a useful definition for "soul" when I've asked.

The dictionary isn't much help, either.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=soul
Quote:
8 entries found for soul.
soul ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sl)
n.

1. The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.
2. The spiritual nature of humans, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
3. The disembodied spirit of a dead human.
4. A human: “the homes of some nine hundred souls” (Garrison Keillor).
5. The central or integral part; the vital core: “It saddens me that this network... may lose its soul, which is after all the quest for news” (Marvin Kalb).
6. A person considered as the perfect embodiment of an intangible quality; a personification: I am the very soul of discretion.
7. A person's emotional or moral nature: “An actor is... often a soul which wishes to reveal itself to the world but dare not” (Alec Guinness).
8. A sense of ethnic pride among Black people and especially African Americans, expressed in areas such as language, social customs, religion, and music.
9. A strong, deeply felt emotion conveyed by a speaker, a performer, or an artist.
10. Soul music.
In sense 1., it would seem that a functioning brain would be the definition of 'soul'.

In sense 2., nobody ever has any hard evidence for any of this supernatural stuff.

In sense 3., Ooh it's... a... gho-o-o-o-st! (Wiggling fingers and doing creepy voice.)

In sense 4., just a person.

The rest are just some metaphorical thingamajigs.

If you want page after page of pure drool, look at the thesaurus hits for 'soul'.

Anyway, if you want to just talk gibberish for extended periods, use undefined terms, like 'soul'.

If you want to provide us an absolute definition of what a "soul" is, and detail its attributes and properties, as well as repeatable tests to demonstrate these properties, go right ahead. Lots of very bright people have failed to come up with a definition that anyone accepts for centuries.

So, like your gods, it's just a nebulous load of road apples. We may as well debate whether BLARGLESPATZZ exists. What's BLARGLESPATZZ, you ask? It's BLARGLESPATZZ! Why do you need to know what BLARGLESPATZZ is? We don't need to know anything about BLARGLESPATZZ to assume it exists!
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Old 28th March 2004, 09:17 PM   #30
Yahweh
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Quote:
Originally posted by hammegk
Yahweh: If you are around to watch the heat-death of the universe, will your attitude about the uselessness of heat be so cavalier?
Perhaps, unless there is a way to bypass those Laws of Thermodynamics.
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Old 29th March 2004, 12:21 AM   #31
neutrino_cannon
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Quote:
Originally posted by Iacchus
Ever see a corpse with a personality? So what is it about consciousness if it isn't the means by which we define reailty? How would we know we exist without it? Is it possible that when we pass on it goes on to define a new reality?

Or course I have seen a corpse with personality. Go look at a dead sparrow some time.

I certainly trust my conscience enough to assume I exist moat of the time, since it makes things like buying food easier, but in the end, I really don't know anything, which is what makes this line of inquiriy pointless.

As an aside, I would guess death is a lot like when a figher pilot blacks out during a high-g manuver.

I'll assume for purpose of argument that I'll die under a hail of lead being spewed at me by my and my aquantances mutual aquantances who are upset about something or another.

I'll probably get at least one or two, because I just couldn't die with the knowledge that I didn't get at least one or two of them going on the same trip I am (hey, a guy needs company, no matter who it is), but I do something stupid, like stand up at the last minute and get a hit somewhere bad.

The bullet hits my heart, and disrupts the flow of O2 and glucose molecules to my brain. My peripheral vision will fade fast, and then everything will turn grey. Since The loss was fast, this should all be fairly abrupt, unlike a fighter pilots experience.

The loss of signals to my muscles will probably result in my going limp and falling down, and the loss of signals from the brain generally will make all the systems go out of whack. Meanwhile, my vision is completely gone and everything else up top is fading fast. The cells start to die.

Now, this may not be entirely accurate. I've shot elk in what looked to be the heart at the time of the shot, and the heart was a pulp after opening them up. They still stood up. This could be because quadrapeds are more stable than bipeds, and it had it's knees locked, but I shot out several of the beast's leg bones. Also, one of its hind feet had been shot off a previous year, so it wouldn't have been that stable.

Anyway, back to the story of N_C's demise.

Assuming everone just leaves me there (which I somehow find likely), I'll be a soul flown shell, so to speak, that has a chance to get nice and ripe.

There are two types of decomposition that occur to a body,as far as I know. One is where the caustic digestive fluids of the stomach leak out and start to dissolve things, and the other in which bacteria from the world around, but especially the digestive tract slowly metabolize the body.

The gasses from these various processes will fill my various cavities, and I'll look very balloony. Won't smell particularly nice though.

Depending on how accessable I am to scavangers of various calibur, and how nive the ambient temperature is to the bacteria and grubs growing on me at this point, I may skeletonize withing weeks or never, and just mummify. If someone has the decency to put me in perservative fluid, I could be around for a long time to come, shielded from the agents of decay.

My brain cells, and the wit and charm which you all enjoy that they contain will have long since become the food of various grades of microbe, or perhaps an enterprising dog.

Not pretty to us, but a cornacopia of food to others.
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Old 29th March 2004, 03:44 AM   #32
hammegk
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Quote:
Originally posted by 69dodge
My pleasure. It's the integral of the dot product of force and displacement.
Umm, ok. Is a dot product more real, equally real, or less real than "what-is"?

Quote:

You say you've read Feynman's discussion of energy, but I think you haven't understood it. His point is that "energy" does not have a definition of the type you're looking for.
I think I understood it just fine. Some words just don't do well under definitions. Do you have a good definition for "god"?

Quote:

If it was sarcastic, could you explain what you dislike about the suggestion to read a physics text? I think it's an excellent suggestion.
Yes it is. Reading & comprehending basic core ideas and implications are unfortunately not the same.


c4ts: What has circular reasoning ever done for you?
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Old 29th March 2004, 04:25 AM   #33
Martin
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Quote:
Originally posted by 69dodge
My pleasure. It's the integral of the dot product of force and displacement
Now define force and displacement.

We've been through this before with Hammy. You'll learn.
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Old 29th March 2004, 05:19 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by 69dodge
Ditto.

If I may make a slight correction to your quote, though . . .<blockquote>It is an abstract thing in that it does not tell us the mechanism or the reasons for the various formulas.</blockquote>
You are right. What I wrote didn't make any sense... it was a lapsus callami...
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Old 29th March 2004, 05:24 AM   #35
Interesting Ian
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Re: The energy never dies argument

Quote:
Originally posted by KelvinG
I'm constantly hearing the argument from those who believe in an afterlife that since the body contains energy, when the body dies energy is released. Since this energy doesn't die, what becomes of it.
To them, this is possible evidence that a "soul" or "spirit" survives the death of the physical body.

I realized that I've never had a decent rebuttal to this line of thinking. Now, that doesn't mean I believe what they are saying, but I don't know really know what to counter it either.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me. Is energy indeed released from the body when you die? If so, how much and in what form? Is it true that this energy never dies?

These may sound like simplistic questions, but I've never professed to be a genius in the area of psychics and biology.
Come on smart people! Help me out!
A soul or spirit is not energy

Why don't skeptics ever address any sensible arguments, or/and address the huge amount of evidence for survival??
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Old 29th March 2004, 05:33 AM   #36
Interesting Ian
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Quote:
Originally posted by evildave
[b]The way it was 'explained' to me in another forum was that:

1. Your brain emits electromagnetic radiation.

2. Electromagnetic radiation radiates outwards at the speed of light.

3. Therefore, your every thought will radiate forever into the universe.

Oh, how pretty!
Electromagnetic radiation is not thought

In fact thought is very clearly not physical at all.

Nor do our thoughts radiate through space. If anything they are instantaneously everywhere already.
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Old 29th March 2004, 05:35 AM   #37
Interesting Ian
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Quote:
Originally posted by Martin
Computer.

Sledgehammer.

Energy release.

Where do all the programs go? Silicon heaven?
The soul is neither energy nor information.
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Old 29th March 2004, 05:38 AM   #38
Interesting Ian
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fendetestas


I recommend the 4th chapter of the wonderful Feynman Lectures on Physics to anyone that wishes to know what energy is. In it, the concept is introduced with a metaphor that involves Dennis the Menace and some blocks...

And I would suggest it is a waste of time since no-one is able to define energy. Indeed, in a strict literally sense it doesn't exist.
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Old 29th March 2004, 05:47 AM   #39
Fendetestas
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Quote:
Originally posted by Interesting Ian



And I would suggest it is a waste of time since no-one is able to define energy. Indeed, in a strict literally sense it doesn't exist.
If you had bothered to read the two pages I was referring to, you would (luckily) see that he is not trying to define energy in the same way as we can define chair, for example.

He does not give a formal definiton of energy, nor a mathematical one, such as E = m*c^2 or E = 1/2 *k^2... he is saying that energy is an abstract thing, it is not made of blocks of some strange material. Basically, it is a number that doesn't change.
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Old 29th March 2004, 05:59 AM   #40
Dancing David
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Quote:
Originally posted by Iacchus
Ever see a corpse with a personality? So what is it about consciousness if it isn't the means by which we define reailty? How would we know we exist without it? Is it possible that when we pass on it goes on to define a new reality?
Ever see a living human with out personality?
Consiousness is just another label, it can label itself and does all the time.
People exist wothout a consiousness all the time.
Is it possible that whne we die that it is the end of all life?
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