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Tags health conspiracies , vaccination , vaccine autism myth , vaccines

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Old 12th May 2011, 06:45 PM   #121
Travis
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
You mean parents are stupid if they noticed that their child had a negative reaction to a vaccination and spoke up/out about it?
You don't have to be stupid to make a false association.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
And you're saying millions of children world wide, at age of 1 or 2, are genetically disposed to become autistic no matter their lineage?
Millions of children are going to become autistic regardless of whether their parents have it and regardless of whether they are vaccinated. In fact, with expanding diagnostic criteria, more and more kids will be considered "autistic" that wouldn't have been before. One group wants to expand the definition of "autism" to the point that 1 in 3 kids in America would now be included.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0&postcount=63

It was about vaccines and profits, not vaccines for children and profits.
You have yet to explain why profits are relevant in any way.
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Old 12th May 2011, 07:59 PM   #122
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I have a hypothesis that younger people are more likely to be anti-vaxxers than people around my age (56) because all of their lives they have benefited from herd immunity, and the younger ones have never known someone crippled or dead because they hadn't been immunized. MMR? Immunized the hard way for Mumps, and the easier way for Rubella (German Measles), which immunized me for Measles, which meant some time off from third grade but I had to stay away from pregnant women for a while. Diptheria? Had it. Pertussis (Whooping Cough)? Another "natural" immunity but I got my infants out of a McDonalds the moment I heard that telltale cough. Polio? Even back then there were anti-vaxxers, so a kid down the block was permanently crippled.

These were not rare diseases. Hell, EVERYBODY got at least some of them. And some died and some were crippled. Yet you never hear of them anymore, unless a group of anti-vaxxers have their way. Then they come back.

Most folks my age realize the value of vaccines protecting our children and grandchildren. Clayton seems to not be one of them. Some younger people never lived in a world where childhood diseases were commonplace and seem incapable of imagining it. He doesn't seem to be able to remember it.

Trust me, it was real, and even if there were a possibility that vaccines were a cause of autism, they would still be worth it. As they have been demonstrated to NOT be a cause, anti-vaxxer beliefs are grossly irresponsible.

Last edited by dropzone; 12th May 2011 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 13th May 2011, 01:31 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Maybe he didn't have sufficient funding to a large study. But he did have access to autistic children who became autistic after a recent vaccine dose.
As said, he cherry picked.
You have failed to address the Danish (or smaller Swedish) studies.

If MMR was a factor in autism then why did neither of these studies (especially the Danish one) find any increase in autism rates amongst those children who had the jabs compared to those who hadn't?
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Old 13th May 2011, 02:32 AM   #124
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There's another point that I can comment on from an anecdotal basis. My son, who is autistic, was very clearly autistic before his MMR vaccination - in fact, the first thing I ever noticed about him, within minutes of his birth, was that his responses and interactions weren't normal for a newborn baby. (It wasn't drug related because my wife didn't have any.) His MMR vaccination was an extremely traumatic experience, because we couldn't communicate with him effectively enough to reassure him that having a needle stuck in his arm wasn't going to cause him any long term harm, and his behaviour became a lot worse - meaning, effectively, a lot more autistic - immediately afterwards. If I hadn't already known that something wasunusual about his development, I could easily have made the false connection.

So, if another small child, already autistic, but not obviously so, goes for a vaccination, finds the experience traumatic because the impairment of his receptive communication makes him unable to receive the non-verbal signals of reassurance his parents are sending him - indeed, has never been able to receive these signals, leading to the high level of anxiety that's a classic feature of autism - and retreats, after the experience, to the rituals and repetitions that comfort him, and that his parents have never really seen as unusual before. But now he's doing it all a lot more, and it's too obvious to miss. And then they say, "But he wasn't doing anything like this before the vaccination." He was, but it didn't reach the significance threshold, so they didn't realise he was autistic.

Personally, I suspect that's the reason for the association. But it's only my opinion, and it's based on anecdotal evidence, so feel free to take it with a pinch of salt.

Dave
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Old 13th May 2011, 06:01 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
10 vaccines $20 each $866,399,800
And it's mine, all mine, BWA-HA-HA-HA-HAAA!!!
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Old 13th May 2011, 06:06 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
There's another point that I can comment on from an anecdotal basis. My son, who is autistic, was very clearly autistic before his MMR vaccination - in fact, the first thing I ever noticed about him, within minutes of his birth, was that his responses and interactions weren't normal for a newborn baby. (It wasn't drug related because my wife didn't have any.) His MMR vaccination was an extremely traumatic experience, because we couldn't communicate with him effectively enough to reassure him that having a needle stuck in his arm wasn't going to cause him any long term harm, and his behaviour became a lot worse - meaning, effectively, a lot more autistic - immediately afterwards. If I hadn't already known that something wasunusual about his development, I could easily have made the false connection.

So, if another small child, already autistic, but not obviously so, goes for a vaccination, finds the experience traumatic because the impairment of his receptive communication makes him unable to receive the non-verbal signals of reassurance his parents are sending him - indeed, has never been able to receive these signals, leading to the high level of anxiety that's a classic feature of autism - and retreats, after the experience, to the rituals and repetitions that comfort him, and that his parents have never really seen as unusual before. But now he's doing it all a lot more, and it's too obvious to miss. And then they say, "But he wasn't doing anything like this before the vaccination." He was, but it didn't reach the significance threshold, so they didn't realise he was autistic.

Personally, I suspect that's the reason for the association. But it's only my opinion, and it's based on anecdotal evidence, so feel free to take it with a pinch of salt.

Dave
I've never looked at is this way before, but it seems reasonable.

If an autistic child can traumatized by such a seemingly innocuous social interaction as a hug, then imagine how he would react to having a strange man grab his arm and stick a sharp metal object into it.
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Old 13th May 2011, 07:06 AM   #127
Clayton Moore
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
I can sell things at cost and make a whole lot of gross profits too. I can sell $1,000,000 worth of stuff tomorrow but if it cost me $999,990 to make and ship I will have barely enough for 2 cups of coffee.

You seem to have no clue about the definitions of 'profit' are.

I'm not saying they don't make money - they should. It encourages them to stay in business, expand and research into other areas. But to say they are making serious money compared to the cash cows things like Viagra and Cholestrerol medications is a joke.

The ability to make profits on other drugs vs the low margins from vaccines is why there are so few companies making children's vaccines.

If you had any idea of what you are talking about instead of repeating hysterical nonsense you would understand that.
Yadda Yadda yadda. Now I'm being told that sellers of vaccines aren't in it to win it.
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Old 13th May 2011, 07:10 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Yadda Yadda yadda. Now I'm being told that sellers of vaccines aren't in it to win it.
No. You are being having basic economics explained to you and all you can do is act like a surly child.
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Old 13th May 2011, 07:11 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Yadda Yadda yadda. Now I'm being told that sellers of vaccines aren't in it to win it.
Win what? Your sentence makes no sense.
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Old 13th May 2011, 07:14 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Win what? Your sentence makes no sense.
To constantly improve/maintain their profit margin.
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Old 13th May 2011, 08:34 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
Yes.


Makes no sense.


Makes no sense.


Makes no sense.


Makes no sense.

Millions of children world wide, are genetically disposed to become autistic. This makes sense.

Symptoms of autism typically begin showing at ages 1 or 2, around the same time the MMR vaccine is administrated. Idiots are now convinced that the vaccine causes autism, despite the fact that there is no evidence that agrees with them.
Symptoms of autism typically begin showing at ages 1 or 2, around the same time, AFTER MMR vaccine is administrated.
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Old 13th May 2011, 08:47 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Symptoms of autism typically begin showing at ages 1 or 2, around the same time, AFTER MMR vaccine is administrated.
Why do children who DON'T get the vaccine show signs of autism at that same age in the same percentages?
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Old 13th May 2011, 09:04 AM   #133
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Isn't it obvious? They get exposed to the same air vaccinated people are breathing!

Ok, now to be actually serious... Anti-Vaxxers are beyond ignorance : they manage to reach that rare level of criminal stupidity.
About two years ago, some moron had the guts to claim that POLIO wasn't a serious illness, and that the vaccine wasn't important - to my uncle's face. He has a lame leg and poor mobility in the other one due to Polio, and he got off lucky - a friend of his got tetraplegic.
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Old 13th May 2011, 09:08 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by PHLeal View Post
Ok, now to be actually serious... Anti-Vaxxers are beyond ignorance : they manage to reach that rare level of criminal stupidity.
To be fair to a group of people that includes some friends of mine, most parents of autistic children are stressed and exhausted to the point where they can barely spell MMR, and would desperately like to find a reason why their lives have had this extraordinary burden heaped on top of them. Expecting calm and rational analysis from them is expecting a little too much.

Dave
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Old 13th May 2011, 11:17 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
Why do children who DON'T get the vaccine show signs of autism at that same age in the same percentages?
They don't.
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Old 13th May 2011, 11:28 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
To be fair to a group of people that includes some friends of mine, most parents of autistic children are stressed and exhausted to the point where they can barely spell MMR, and would desperately like to find a reason why their lives have had this extraordinary burden heaped on top of them. Expecting calm and rational analysis from them is expecting a little too much.

Dave

Why should any parent believe you vaccine people when all the kings men, with all the science and computer power and funding that is at their disposal, supposedly can't figure out what has caused the autism "epidemic?" Since what 1970?
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Old 13th May 2011, 11:35 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Why should any parent believe you vaccine people when all the kings men, with all the science and computer power and funding that is at their disposal, supposedly can't figure out what has caused the autism "epidemic?" Since what 1970?
I was immunised.

My two daughters were immunised.

My two daughters entire classes were immunised.

My two daughters co-classmates were immunised.

Not a single case found.

Where is the epidemic?
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Old 13th May 2011, 11:50 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
They don't.
They do.
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Old 13th May 2011, 12:45 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
They don't.
This is untrue, if you'd actually examined the data provided you'd know this.
And I note you haven't mentioned the single dose vaccine patented by Wakefield.............
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Old 13th May 2011, 04:57 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Why should any parent believe you vaccine people when all the kings men, with all the science and computer power and funding that is at their disposal, supposedly can't figure out what has caused the autism "epidemic?" Since what 1970?
What autism "epidemic"?
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Old 13th May 2011, 05:13 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
What autism "epidemic"?
Figure of speech.
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Old 13th May 2011, 05:59 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Figure of speech.
Surely you jest. "autism epidemic" is one of your basic premises, yet now you claim it is a figure of speech?
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Old 13th May 2011, 07:02 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
To constantly improve/maintain their profit margin.
And they do that by giving kids autism? How does that work?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Why should any parent believe you vaccine people when all the kings men, with all the science and computer power and funding that is at their disposal, supposedly can't figure out what has caused the autism "epidemic?" Since what 1970?
Actually there really is good science that points to epigenitics as the potential cause.
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Old 13th May 2011, 07:05 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
And they do that by giving kids autism? How does that work?



Actually there really is good science that points to epigenitics as the potential cause.
For shame, you used a sciency word. Clayton doesn't like them.
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Old 16th May 2011, 01:43 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Why should any parent believe you vaccine people when all the kings men, with all the science and computer power and funding that is at their disposal, supposedly can't figure out what has caused the autism "epidemic?" Since what 1970?
Well, the fact that Lorna Wing first published the definitive work on autism in 1969, on which all subsequent diagnoses are based, might be a bit of a clue. Before 1970, nobody understood the triad of autistic impairments, because it had never been identified, so diagnosis was pretty much hit-or-miss. Don't forget, the use of the word to describe an abnormal neurological development didn't even exist until 1943, and it wasn't until Wing's work throughout the 1960's that we really began to understand what autism really is. Since about 1970, diagnosis has continued to become more reliable, and it's quite common for people who would have been diagnosed as autistic in childhood, had we had the same level of understanding then as we have now, to be diagnosed later in life.

Short answer: There's no epidemic. They've always been there, we just haven't identified them correctly.

Dave
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Old 16th May 2011, 07:57 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
And they do that by giving kids autism? How does that work?



Actually there really is good science that points to epigenitics as the potential cause.
Good point.

Quite possibly what is happening is a genetic weakening caused by vaccines. Today's babies would be the 3rd wave
of vaccine recipients. Third generation so to speak.

First generation 1960- 5? age?
Second generation 1980- 10 before the age of 5
Third generation 2000- 36 vaccines even younger

Parents could be weakened genetically by the vaccines
and pass the weakness to their children. The children, who are getting even more vaccines at a younger age, would be more prone to autism.

Times that by two or three and genetic predisposition becomes reality.


http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/01/t...nd-autism.html


Quote:
The epigenome is then best understood as existing above your genes (or genome), but influencing how your genes work. The explanation offered by biologists is that if your genome can be compared to a computer’s hardware, the epigenome is the software telling it how to function. The process of changing the genome is through a process called DNA methylation; a single carbon atom attached to three hydrogen atoms. “When a methyl group attaches to a specific spot on a gene . . . it can change the gene’s expression, turning it off or on, dampening it or making it louder.”

All of which brings us back to autism.

Our community has long asserted our children were not genetically pre-determined to get autism. If autism was purely a genetic problem then the numbers should be 1 in 100 from here until the dawn of time. The autistic should be part of our culture, the stories we tell, the very fabric of our society. But they’re not. Instead we have stories about the tidal wave of adults with autism we can expect in the next few years and how poorly prepared we are for them. Nobody saw this problem until it was first described in the 1940s. From that time it’s gone from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 100. With that rate of increase, can it be long until it goes to 1 in 10? We need to find answers.

And let’s be clear about it. Most of us saw a change after a vaccination, a procedure which has become more common since our generation (10 vaccinations in the 1980’s before the age of 5 to 36 vaccinations under the current schedule) and has been administered at earlier ages.

Many of the far-sighted researchers and physicians in autism have been talking about DNA methylation for years. These concerns have finally begun to enter the mainstream conversation.


Think of a boxer losing 5 fights by decision in his 15 year career.

Think of a boxer losing 10 fights by decision in his 5 year career.

Think of a boxer losing 35 fights by decision in his much less than a 5 year career.

Last edited by Clayton Moore; 16th May 2011 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 16th May 2011, 08:15 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
They don't.
Um, they do.
That's what the Danish study showed.
You know, the one you keep ignoring.
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Old 16th May 2011, 08:19 AM   #148
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I've seen it here and in several other places that there is no Illuminati. That doesn't even make sense. There's a Wikipedia entry that talks about it. I'm not saying that everything on Wikipedia is true, but if you read it, it's just really clear how the Illuminati controls the world.

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Old 16th May 2011, 08:20 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Quite possibly what is happening is a genetic weakening caused by vaccines.
Parents could be weakened genetically by the vaccines
and pass the weakness to their children.
That's great...genetic weakening...how many hits of acid did it take to think of that one? But I bet if you put it on Net, someone will pick it. Maybe it'll go viral. Give it a shot. It might be you're only chance at fame.
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I've seen it here and in several other places that there is no Illuminati. That doesn't even make sense. There's a Wikipedia entry that talks about it. I'm not saying that everything on Wikipedia is true, but if you read it, it's just really clear how the Illuminati controls the world.
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Old 16th May 2011, 09:02 AM   #150
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"genetic weakening" Sounds like a racial purist trying to sound scientific.
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Old 16th May 2011, 09:07 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Quite possibly what is happening is a genetic weakening caused by vaccines.
a.) What hole did you pull that out of?
b.) What does this have to do with them supposedly making a profit?
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Old 16th May 2011, 09:24 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Scott Sommers View Post
That's great...genetic weakening...how many hits of acid did it take to think of that one? But I bet if you put it on Net, someone will pick it. Maybe it'll go viral. Give it a shot. It might be you're only chance at fame.

First generation 1960- 5? age?
Second generation 1980- 10 before the age of 5
Third generation 2000- 36 vaccines even younger

I remember getting 7 shots in an hour, the "flying seven," in the Navy in my teens. I can't believe you people believe multiple vaccines are absolutely, unquestionably safe to give to to babies and toddlers.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/sch...d-schedule.htm


22 shots before the age of 2!!!


http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/...on_chart.html#





Quote:




Birth

* Hep B: Hepatitis B vaccine (HBV); recommended to give the first dose at birth, but may be given at any age for those not previously immunized.

1-2 months

* Hep B: Second dose should be administered 1 to 2 months after the first dose.

2 months

* DTaP: Diphtheria, tetanus, and acellular pertussis vaccine
* Hib: Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccine
* IPV: Inactivated poliovirus vaccine
* PCV: Pneumococcal conjugate vaccine
* Rota: Rotavirus vaccine

4 months

* DTaP
* Hib
* IPV
* PCV
* Rota

6 months

* DTaP
* Hib
* PCV
* Rota

Continue

6 months and annually

* Seasonal influenza. Beginning in the 2010-2011 flu season, the seasonal influenza vaccine will protect against H1N1 flu, as well as other flu strains.

The vaccine is recommended every year for children older than 6 months. Kids under 9 who get a flu vaccine for the first time will receive it in two separate doses a month apart.

Although children 6 months to 5 years old are still considered the group of kids who need the flu vaccine the most, updated guidelines from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) now recommend that all older kids and teens get it, too (as long as enough is available).

It's especially important for high-risk kids to be vaccinated. High-risk groups include, but aren't limited to, kids with asthma, heart problems, sickle cell anemia, diabetes, or human immunodeficiency virus (HIV).

It can take up to 2 weeks after the shot is given for the body to build up immunity against the flu.

6-18 months

* Hep B
* IPV

12-15 months

* Hib
* MMR: Measles, mumps, and rubella (German measles) vaccine
* PCV
* Varicella (chickenpox) vaccine

12-23 months

* Hep A: Hepatitis A vaccine; given as two shots at least 6 months apart

15-18 months

* DTaP

4-6 years

* DTaP
* MMR
* IPV
* Varicella

11-12 years

* HPV: Human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine, given as 3 shots over 6 months. It's recommended for girls to prevent genital warts and cervical cancers. The vaccine also may be given to boys to prevent genital warts.
* Tdap: Tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis booster
* MCV: Meningitis vaccine; with a booster dose at age
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Old 16th May 2011, 09:29 AM   #153
Corsair 115
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
"genetic weakening" Sounds like a racial purist trying to sound scientific.

Well, Clayton is also a Holocaust denier, so perhaps his comment makes sense after all when placed against that context...
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Old 16th May 2011, 09:30 AM   #154
Tolls
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
First generation 1960- 5? age?
Second generation 1980- 10 before the age of 5
Third generation 2000- 36 vaccines even younger

I remember getting 7 shots in an hour, the "flying seven," in the Navy in my teens. I can't believe you people believe multiple vaccines are absolutely, unquestionably safe to give to to babies and toddlers.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/sch...d-schedule.htm


22 shots before the age of 2!!!


http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/...on_chart.html#
Do you have any evidence of "genetic weakening"?
Anything, as a concept.

Or are you (as suggested above) simply pulling things out of places you shouldn't be pulling things?
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Old 16th May 2011, 09:33 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I can't believe you people believe multiple vaccines are absolutely, unquestionably safe to give to to babies and toddlers.
Since nobody's claiming any such thing, I'm not surprised you can't believe it. But please keep punching, there's almost enough straw flying now.

Vaccines have been tested. In particular, a great deal of work has been done to determine whether the MMR vaccine produces an increase in the prevalence of autism. It has been found not to. The people operating purely from a belief are the ones who reject the evidence, and believe that the MMR vaccine unquestionably causes autism.

Dave
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Old 16th May 2011, 09:40 AM   #156
Clayton Moore
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Do you have any evidence of "genetic weakening"?
Anything, as a concept.

Or are you (as suggested above) simply pulling things out of places you shouldn't be pulling things?
In case you've been over vaccinated supposition is an important part of the thinking process.
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Old 16th May 2011, 09:47 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
In case you've been over vaccinated supposition is an important part of the thinking process.
Not if you've already got an alternative explanation that involve actual evidence.
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Old 16th May 2011, 09:54 AM   #158
Clayton Moore
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Since nobody's claiming any such thing, I'm not surprised you can't believe it. But please keep punching, there's almost enough straw flying now.

Vaccines have been tested. In particular, a great deal of work has been done to determine whether the MMR vaccine produces an increase in the prevalence of autism. It has been found not to. The people operating purely from a belief are the ones who reject the evidence, and believe that the MMR vaccine unquestionably causes autism.

Dave
And yet?

http://www.bloomingtonalternative.com/node/10560


Quote:
Under federal law, the only recourse families have when they suspect a vaccine caused their child's injuries is to petition the federal government in what is commonly called Vaccine Court, officially known as the Vaccine Program/Office of Special Claims.

The congressionally mandated court was established in 1988 to inoculate the vaccine industry against damage claims alleging harm from childhood immunizations. In the court's words, the program is "a no-fault compensation scheme whereby persons allegedly suffering injury or death as a result of the administration of certain compulsory childhood vaccines may petition the federal government for monetary damages."

Vaccine Program/Office of Special Claims
http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/vaccin...pecial-masters
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Old 16th May 2011, 10:06 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Sometimes people are harmed by vaccines, but overall the benefit outweighs the harm.

That doesn't mean vaccines cause autism.

Just like...

Sometimes people are harmed by motor vehicles, but overall the benefit outweighs the harm.

That doesn't mean motor vehicles cause autism.

And...

Sometimes people are harmed by water, but overall the benefit outweighs the harm.

That doesn't mean water causes autism.

And so on, and so on.
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Old 16th May 2011, 10:25 AM   #160
Clayton Moore
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I recommend THE STRANGE STORY OF THE QUANTUM by
Banesh Hoffmann for those of you who think science/medicine cannot advance via a path of wrong thinking.
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