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Tags health conspiracies , vaccination , vaccine autism myth , vaccines

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Old 1st June 2011, 09:25 AM   #321
Travis
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
Actually, your comment is beyond disturbing. I am going to put my son's life at risk??
Edited by kmortis:  Removed personalization
I will not sacrifice my son for anything.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed personalization
Your inference that you have a particular set of knowledge is misplaced arrogance. I elect to have a choice, not a mandate by you or anybody else.

I never said that vaccines create anything beyond what would affect my son. Is the general public paranoid? Yes, if the public feels vaccines are necessary and should be forced on people who don't want it.

Question: should my son die just because you want him to have a vaccine?
Um, he was commenting on the fact that your son should not be vaccinated because of the allergies. This is a known problem. Now if a very large percentage of the people around your son are vaccinated then your son is protected even though he is not. That's called Herd Immunity. But if the percentage of people being vaccinated falls then your son is now at risk. This is why it is important that we vaccinate all the people that don't have the allergic reactions to the vaccines.
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Last edited by kmortis; 1st June 2011 at 12:18 PM. Reason: Removed previously moderated content
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Old 1st June 2011, 09:27 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
I never said that vaccines create anything beyond what would affect my son. Is the general public paranoid? Yes, if the public feels vaccines are necessary and should be forced on people who don't want it.

Question: should my son die just because you want him to have a vaccine?
Question: Should millions of children die because you don't think vaccines are necessary?
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Old 1st June 2011, 10:01 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
Actually, your comment is beyond disturbing. I am going to put my son's life at risk??
Edited by kmortis:  Removed personalization
I will not sacrifice my son for anything.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed personalization
Your inference that you have a particular set of knowledge is misplaced arrogance. I elect to have a choice, not a mandate by you or anybody else.

I never said that vaccines create anything beyond what would affect my son. Is the general public paranoid? Yes, if the public feels vaccines are necessary and should be forced on people who don't want it.

Question: should my son die just because you want him to have a vaccine?
Edited by kmortis:  Removed personalization
I have no idea where you got any of this from what I said.
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Old 1st June 2011, 10:02 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
You do not know what you are talking about... there was no waiver.
There is a waiver. I've gotten one, nimrod. Seems like you didn't try too hard.
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Old 1st June 2011, 10:11 AM   #325
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I've never heard of them forcing a child that has allergic or other types of reactions to vaccines to still be inoculated.
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Old 1st June 2011, 10:14 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Well, it's not entirely incorrect.
Britain did suffer its worst smallpox outbreak after compulsory vaccination was introduced. It was introduced in 1853, and the worldwide epidemic was in 1871/72. So 20 years, not 40.

The vaccine didn't prevent you getting the disease, quite often. It did reduce the chance of death. There are 20th century statistics showing something like a reduction from 40% to 10%. No idea how this compares with the figures for the 1870s, though.
And I would not have written anything had it come from a legitimate source. Being wrapped in the conspiracy langauge that it was, I was taking issue with that. Good information doesn't have to be taken from bad sources.
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Old 1st June 2011, 10:15 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
You do not know what you are talking about... there was no waiver.
http://www.vaclib.org/exemption.htm

At the bottom of this page (don't bother reading the rest of the content, I know you won't like it) are links for exemption forms for every US State, along with the relevant state statutes allowing for the waiver.

That took 2 seconds of googling. Research is hard.
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Old 1st June 2011, 11:40 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
Swing and a miss. All three of these are airborne diseases, washing your hands is going to do jack diddly.


Washing hands was a time in the history of medicine reference.
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Old 1st June 2011, 11:53 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Washing hands was a time in the history of medicine reference.
Cool. Will hand washing prevent TB?
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Old 1st June 2011, 12:47 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
http://www.vaclib.org/exemption.htm

At the bottom of this page (don't bother reading the rest of the content, I know you won't like it) are links for exemption forms for every US State, along with the relevant state statutes allowing for the waiver.

That took 2 seconds of googling. Research is hard.
Don't get smug... now guess the time frame that my child was in school. My statement still stands.
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Old 1st June 2011, 12:52 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
http://www.vaclib.org/exemption.htm

At the bottom of this page (don't bother reading the rest of the content, I know you won't like it) are links for exemption forms for every US State, along with the relevant state statutes allowing for the waiver.

That took 2 seconds of googling. Research is hard.
I figured there'd be a clearinghouse for such information on the internet for parents of vaccine-allergic children to use (my daughter has no allergies, thank goodness, so she's had every childhood vaccination available, even the ones not mandated by the state of Massachusetts), because it doesn't make sense to me that any of the 50 states would require vaccination for children that are allergic.
Of course, these days, I hope it's an uphill battle getting an exemption/waiver for anything besides proven medical necessity (you can get them for religious reasons, too, if I'm not mistaken), since herd immunity is on iffy footing in some places right now. For instance, I know there are quite a few cases of Measles in the Boston metro area right now.
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Old 1st June 2011, 01:12 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
Don't get smug... now guess the time frame that my child was in school. My statement still stands.
.
Why should we guess -- if you think it is significant, just tell us.

The statement about exemption still stands.
.
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Old 1st June 2011, 02:04 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Was this a serious question?
U betcha. You don't see anyone answering it. Must have hit a nerve.

Last edited by Clayton Moore; 1st June 2011 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 1st June 2011, 02:13 PM   #334
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Yes you did, Clay; our collective funny bone.
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Old 1st June 2011, 02:26 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Grassy Knowlington View Post
CM - I do not wish to be intrusive but I have a child who was diagnosed Aspergers (at one point Autism was considered but then dismissed) and would like to hear your experience.
Actually they were the son of a close friend of my son, the grandson of my son's Godmother, and the son of a friend I know from poker games.

So my only contact has been through conversation about them.
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Old 1st June 2011, 02:34 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
U betcha. You don't see anyone answering it. Must have it a nerve.
Actually, if you reread your question, you will see it essentially answers itself:



[quote=Clayton Moore;7239155]
Originally Posted by TSR View Post

[url="http://www.cdc.gov/features/rubella/"]From 1963-1965, a rubella epidemic swept across the globe. In the United States alone, there were about 11,000 fetal deaths and 20,000 infants born with congenital rubella syndrome, a group of birth defects that can occur in an infant when its mother is infected with rubella during pregnancy.[/URL





What did we read? Rubella is mild with children.

Rubella is dangerous to unborn babies. That means the danger lies with women at child bearing age.

So why are year old babies getting a Rubella vaccination?
Who takes care of "year old babies"? Who among women of child bearing age tends to associate most closely?

If you think about babies, their mothers and pregnant women, you'll understand.
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Old 1st June 2011, 02:46 PM   #337
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[quote=Tomblvd;7241705]Actually, if you reread your question, you will see it essentially answers itself:



Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post

Who takes care of "year old babies"? Who among women of child bearing age tends to associate most closely?

If you think about babies, their mothers and pregnant women, you'll understand.
HMMMM. So instead of pushing rubella vaccine for all 10 year old girls who haven't already become immune, all babies get it?
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Old 1st June 2011, 02:58 PM   #338
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[quote=Clayton Moore;7241746]
Originally Posted by Tomblvd View Post
Actually, if you reread your question, you will see it essentially answers itself:





HMMMM. So instead of pushing rubella vaccine for all 10 year old girls who haven't already become immune, all babies get it?
I don't understand what point you are making here. Where are you getting these "10 year old girls who haven't already become immune"? And how is this an either/or? Are you saying we are withholding vaccines from an at-risk group to immunize infants?

Your statement makes no sense.
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Old 1st June 2011, 03:22 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by TSR View Post
.
Why should we guess -- if you think it is significant, just tell us.

The statement about exemption still stands.
.
Back up your claim with facts. There were not always exemptions. If you want to back up your claim provide the facts. If not, do not make the claims...
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Old 1st June 2011, 04:10 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Washing hands was a time in the history of medicine reference.
A time of what?
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Old 1st June 2011, 04:14 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
Back up your claim with facts. There were not always exemptions. If you want to back up your claim provide the facts. If not, do not make the claims...
You might just want to post whatever point you have.
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Old 1st June 2011, 04:53 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Babies can be born with all sorts of potential reactions to things. Of course we only find out about them when they actually have these reactions. But I suppose we should go the safer course and just keep all babies in a plastic bubble just in case.
Good idea. You can thank woman's lib for that.
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Old 1st June 2011, 06:50 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Good idea. You can thank woman's lib for that.
Are you in the same thread as the rest of us?
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Old 1st June 2011, 07:55 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
Back up your claim with facts. There were not always exemptions. If you want to back up your claim provide the facts. If not, do not make the claims...
.
You have been offered facts.

Then you make additional claims about when exemptions began.


Claims that are strangely missing those fact thingies.


*Prove* that exemptions have not been available as long as mandatory exemptions have, or do not make the claim.
.
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Old 1st June 2011, 08:01 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by TSR View Post
.
You have been offered facts.

Then you make additional claims about when exemptions began.


Claims that are strangely missing those fact thingies.


*Prove* that exemptions have not been available as long as mandatory exemptions have, or do not make the claim.
.
You are completely wrong... the "facts" were written well before my case. Plain and simple...

No additional claims have been made... state the additional claims. Excaza said posted exemptions well before my child went to school... all I asked was to provide the claims that pertain. It wasn't provided and if you think it was... then your mind was already made up.

I am still looking for the facts.
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Old 1st June 2011, 08:12 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
You are completely wrong... the "facts" were written well before my case. Plain and simple...

No additional claims have been made... state the additional claims. Excaza said posted exemptions well before my child went to school... all I asked was to provide the claims that pertain. It wasn't provided and if you think it was... then your mind was already made up.

I am still looking for the facts.
.
Is there a particular reason you will not tell us in what year your child went to school (and in which state), so your claim can be verified? That *was* your claim, that no exemption was available when you child went to school.

Only a couple things missing: those little, you know, fact thingies you were whining about.
.
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Old 1st June 2011, 10:24 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
HMMMM. So instead of pushing rubella vaccine for all 10 year old girls who haven't already become immune, all babies get it?
Yes, because babies can still get it and can pass it on. And trying to figure out who's immune at some later age is just stupid.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Good idea. You can thank woman's lib for that.
What are getting on about here?
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Old 2nd June 2011, 01:18 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by TSR View Post
.
Is there a particular reason you will not tell us in what year your child went to school (and in which state), so your claim can be verified?.
To be fair, that's the sort of information that I probably wouldn't want to pass on to strangers on a public forum.

Dave
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Old 2nd June 2011, 01:41 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol View Post
And I would not have written anything had it come from a legitimate source. Being wrapped in the conspiracy langauge that it was, I was taking issue with that. Good information doesn't have to be taken from bad sources.
Fair point on the source, though I have to say it does seem to be a large amount of kookery using the 1871/2 epidemic as a stick to hit vaccination with. Trying to find some real, actual, quality data is nigh on impossible...at least during "in work procrastination time".


I would be curious as to the death rate from smallpox during that outbreak compared with, say, the 1839 one. Though those statistics may simply not be available.
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Old 2nd June 2011, 02:05 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
To be fair, that's the sort of information that I probably wouldn't want to pass on to strangers on a public forum.
.
First thought: Because there are so very few children starting school in most states in any given year it would make it child's play to find this person's son and force vaccinations on him?

Tell you what: one of my children started school in the state of Texas in the early nineties. Any other information you can tell me about me or her?

Second thought: That being the case, I would recommend that you not try to make a point by using your own family as an example with no other supporting information and expect it to be taken at face value.
.
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Old 2nd June 2011, 02:19 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by TSR View Post
First thought: Because there are so very few children starting school in most states in any given year it would make it child's play to find this person's son and force vaccinations on him?
Pointless. Assuming the state has reasonably well kept records, they already have the information required. No, it's more that this is the Internet, and anyone can read what's posted here.

Originally Posted by TSR View Post
.
Tell you what: one of my children started school in the state of Texas in the early nineties. Any other information you can tell me about me or her?
No, but I'm not a creepy Internet stalker. Having just witnessed the RLBatypocalypse (see Forum Management Feedback) I'm a little more mindful of privacy issues this week.

Originally Posted by TSR View Post
.
Second thought: That being the case, I would recommend that you not try to make a point by using your own family as an example with no other supporting information and expect it to be taken at face value.
.
It's a bit difficult to know where to draw the line between, on the one hand, respecting privacy and hence accepting anecdotes without proper verification, and on the other, dismissing any and all personal anecdotes because they're unsupported. I'm prepared to believe that, at the very least, ladmo may not have been clearly informed of any waiver rights that may have existed at the time his children were vaccinated. I've also known enough medical professionals who've delivered lectures on the importance of vaccination at inappropriate times - for example, complaining about people who refuse vaccinations while actually giving a vaccination, which is at best utterly pointless - to find it plausible that individuals may not have chosen to publicise any such waivers as strongly as they should.

But at the heart of the issue is the Hippocratic Oath, which quite categorically forbids a doctor from carrying out a vaccination that will cause a known allergic reaction; this clearly constitutes harm.

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Old 2nd June 2011, 02:35 AM   #352
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Then all ladmo has to do is show that before a certain year in State X that there was no exemption available for vaccinations. We don't need an actual year, just a notice that prior to some date there was no exemption.

Hell, pick any state to show it, doesn't even have to be the real one involved...because at the moment it's just an "it's true because I say so" statement, and we currently have the list of exemptions provided earlier.
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Old 2nd June 2011, 05:03 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
Back up your claim with facts. There were not always exemptions. If you want to back up your claim provide the facts. If not, do not make the claims...
Ok then, where's your facts to back up your claim that there were not always exemptions?
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Old 2nd June 2011, 05:07 AM   #354
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There have always been exemptions as long as there has been a requirement for vaccination. I think it should be proven that there was ever a time when any state didn't give out exemptions before we start getting hung up on any particular year.
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Old 2nd June 2011, 07:30 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Pointless. Assuming the state has reasonably well kept records, they already have the information required. No, it's more that this is the Internet, and anyone can read what's posted here.

No, but I'm not a creepy Internet stalker. Having just witnessed the RLBatypocalypse (see Forum Management Feedback) I'm a little more mindful of privacy issues this week.
.
No, the point being that this is not a privacy issue, since the information requested does not invade anyone's privacy any more than the initial claim did.

And keep in mind that we were invited to guess when zir son attended public school.

If you, or zie, consider it to be a privacy issue, then it should not have been brought up in the first place. *Zie* is the one demanding facts, and refusing to supply them. As has been pointed out, zir position seems to be arguing that mandatory vaccinations are generally a bad thing because zir son might have had a bad reaction.

Either an exemption *was* granted and the child was allowed to attend without vaccination < zie says not >, or no exemption and the child did not attend public school < zie says son did >. The two claims contradict each other.
.
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My apologies once again for not being allowed to use the obvious shorthand term for a person who knowingly posts untruths. Apparently someone finds that term uncivil, demonstrated and deserved as it is.
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Old 2nd June 2011, 08:14 AM   #356
carlitos
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This thread does nothing to disabuse me of the notion that anti-vaxxers don't have facts or an argument.
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Old 2nd June 2011, 10:32 AM   #357
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Quote:
This thread does nothing to disabuse me of the notion that anti-vaxxers don't have facts or an argument.
They often have that effect.
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Old 2nd June 2011, 10:58 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Good idea. You can thank woman's lib for that.
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Are you in the same thread as the rest of us?
Thread? How about decade.
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Old 2nd June 2011, 11:00 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
This thread does nothing to disabuse me of the notion that anti-vaxxers don't have facts or an argument.
Antivaxxers?

Is questioning the wisdom of OVER vaccinating babies anti vaccine?

Is wanting to spreading vaccinations over period of time anti vaccine?
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Old 2nd June 2011, 11:08 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Yes, because babies can still get it and can pass it on. And trying to figure out who's immune at some later age is just stupid.



What are getting on about here?
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Quote:
Babies can be born with all sorts of potential reactions to things. Of course we only find out about them when they actually have these reactions. But I suppose we should go the safer course and just keep all babies in a plastic bubble just in case.

Woman's lib eliminated much of what was left of that bubble.
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