ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 24th May 2011, 07:31 AM   #1
michaelsuede
Graduate Poster
 
michaelsuede's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,416
Ron Brookman, Structural Engineer, Talks WTC7 Shear Studs

The obviously mentally ill engineer named Ron Brookman rambles on for nearly a half hour about how he was stonewalled by the NIST in searching for information on the WTC7 collapse.

Clearly a disturbed individual, Brookman rips off his clothing halfway through the video and begins making armpit farts.

I don't know why anyone would believe a word he says when his qualifications include dropping out of high school.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
michaelsuede is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 07:51 AM   #2
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,979
So let's see how good this is as proof that 9/11 was an inside job. Even if Brookman showed that NIST's model is flawed, this wouldn't demonstrate that WTC7's collapse was not due to fire, only that NIST may not have correctly described the details of the mechanism. We're still short by a plausible alternative scenario (explosives would have been heard, thermite would have been seen, thermite has yet to be demonstrated to sever a vertical column, explosives would have left easily detected artefacts and chemical residues, thermite would have left radically different marks on the columns where they fractured, etc, etc), a motive for destroying a building nobody much had heard of (don't try the destruction of evidence garbage, please, because we know that the collapse left bits of paper all over Manhattan), a plausible scenario for how demolition devices could have been installed, and then any kind of plausible evidence that any of this happened (ideally, that is, evidence that doesn't require a violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy).

I eagerly await a response along the lines of "I wasn't saying it proved an inside job, it just shows that NIST got it wrong". Because that's probably the reason this was posted on a conspiracy theories forum rather than an engineering forum.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 08:07 AM   #3
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,713
Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
The obviously mentally ill engineer named Ron Brookman ...

Clearly a disturbed individual, ...

I don't know why anyone would believe a word he says when his qualifications include dropping out of high school.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Uhm. He has got clear and current licenses from the California Board of Professional Engineers as civil and structural engineer, so I would venture a guess that he did get the required degrees of higher learning and is not "obviously mentally".

Here is his AE911"truth" profile: http://www2.ae911truth.org/profile.php?uid=997441
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 08:09 AM   #4
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Uhm. He has got clear and current licenses from the California Board of Professional Engineers as civil and structural engineer, so I would venture a guess that he did get the required degrees of higher learning and is not "obviously mentally".

Here is his AE911"truth" profile: http://www2.ae911truth.org/profile.php?uid=997441
I think being a member of ae911truth makes you mentally ill until proven otherwise.
__________________
Vive la liberté!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 08:13 AM   #5
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,979
I see he thinks WTC7 wasn't "engulfed in any fire", and that the collapses were completely symmetrical, and that the high temperature corrosion of some steel members in the rubble pile were in some way relevant to the cause of collapse. Since he clearly doesn't understand the actual evidence, basic geometry, or even simple causality, one has to suspect that his conclusions arise from the falsity of his premises rather than any failure in his reasoning from one to the other.

Does he know how to read, do we know?

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 08:37 AM   #6
michaelsuede
Graduate Poster
 
michaelsuede's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,416
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Uhm. He has got clear and current licenses from the California Board of Professional Engineers as civil and structural engineer, so I would venture a guess that he did get the required degrees of higher learning and is not "obviously mentally".

Here is his AE911"truth" profile: http://www2.ae911truth.org/profile.php?uid=997441
Let's not bring truth or qualifications into this debate please.

I'm perfectly content ignoring reality and believing everything the MSM and White House tells me.
michaelsuede is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 08:40 AM   #7
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
I'm perfectly content ignoring reality and believing everything the MSM and White House Richard Gage tells me.
ftfy
__________________
Vive la liberté!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 08:41 AM   #8
RedIbis
Philosopher
 
RedIbis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Uhm. He has got clear and current licenses from the California Board of Professional Engineers as civil and structural engineer, so I would venture a guess that he did get the required degrees of higher learning and is not "obviously mentally".

Here is his AE911"truth" profile: http://www2.ae911truth.org/profile.php?uid=997441
So he didn't start cutting armpit farts halfway through?
__________________
(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)
RedIbis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 08:44 AM   #9
Grizzly Bear
このマスクによっ
 
Grizzly Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,801
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I see he thinks WTC7 wasn't "engulfed in any fire", and that the collapses were completely symmetrical, and that the high temperature corrosion of some steel members in the rubble pile were in some way relevant to the cause of collapse. Since he clearly doesn't understand the actual evidence, basic geometry, or even simple causality, one has to suspect that his conclusions arise from the falsity of his premises rather than any failure in his reasoning from one to the other.

Does he know how to read, do we know?

Dave
Also thinks that a single column can't cause the whole building to collapse... I suspect dealing with the specifics on how the building was put together wasn't among the things he went into either... they've been pretty bad at talking details behind their claims...
__________________
Grizzly Bear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 08:44 AM   #10
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,979
Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
Let's not bring truth or qualifications into this debate please.
Agreed, let's just move on quickly to poisoning the well and strawman arguments.

Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
I'm perfectly content ignoring reality and believing everything the MSM and White House tells me.
...oh, I see you're way ahead of me.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 08:47 AM   #11
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,713
At around 4:40 he menations a 24-page document on WTC7 that he put together for AE911"truth"

This is probably the one:
http://www2.ae911truth.org/downloads...s_Brookman.pdf
(28 pages, but hey)

Just found it, haven't read it yet.
Have fun.
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 08:49 AM   #12
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,713
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
I think being a member of ae911truth makes you mentally ill until proven otherwise.
I am not saying he isn't mentally ill, just disputing that it is "obvious" to everyone
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 09:09 AM   #13
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,979
Just taking a look at Brookman's truthing-by-numbers exercise. There are some interesting pieces of reasoning in there. For example, he says (pages 6-7) that NIST didn't determine what caused debris from WTC1 to hit WTC7, and that therefore the cause of the initial structural damage to WTC7 has not been established, an extraordinary non sequitur given that we have a photograph showing WTC1 debris striking WTC7.

It's rather too turgid and dull to read through in a single sitting, but it's basically an exercise in nitpicking the fine details of the NIST report, making up details to nitpick where necessary (for example, when NIST doesn't include a detail in an illustration, he tries to imply that they didn't include that detail in their analysis), and concluding, even after a very hostile and one-sided analysis, no more than that NIST's conclusions may not be correct and that another investigation should be carried out.

So I stand by what I said in post #2. This is not even the first step in demonstrating a vague suspicion of an inside job; it doesn't even claim that the NIST model was wrong, only that its validity hasn't been proven to the author's personal satisfaction.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 09:21 AM   #14
michaelsuede
Graduate Poster
 
michaelsuede's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,416
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
ftfy I love Karl Marx
fixed that for you
michaelsuede is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 09:27 AM   #15
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
fixed that for you
So a Marxist is someone who doesn't buy the snake oil Richard Gage and other internet charlatans are selling, and instead rely on credible and reputable professonal engineers?
__________________
Vive la liberté!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 09:34 AM   #16
Twiler
Master Poster
 
Twiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,482
Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
fixed that for you
I thought you thought everyone would eventually become a supporter of an-cap? If that's the case doesn't it necessitate some people being in the process of becoming a supporter of an-cap?

If that's the case then doesn't it necessitate the existence of some people who will disagree with you without being communists?
Twiler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 09:36 AM   #17
Grizzly Bear
このマスクによっ
 
Grizzly Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,801
Wildcat, you have to realize that there is no such thing as cooks in the professional world! If you genuinely think that they are wrong you are automatically a puppet of the government. Didn't you get the memo!?*


*j/k
__________________
Grizzly Bear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 02:04 PM   #18
cantonear1968
Graduate Poster
 
cantonear1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,657
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Uhm. He has got clear and current licenses from the California Board of Professional Engineers as civil and structural engineer, so I would venture a guess that he did get the required degrees of higher learning and is not "obviously mentally".

Here is his AE911"truth" profile: http://www2.ae911truth.org/profile.php?uid=997441
From his profile:

Quote:
.....it is obvious that NIST, FEMA and the 9/11 Commission have all fallen short of a detailed accounting of the catastrophic collapses of the three World Trade Center buildings in Manhattan on 9/11/01
Why would he be including the 9/11 Commission for an explanation of the collapses? Is he not aware that it was not an engineering paper!!??

I don't want to just hand wave past this guy with ad hominems. I'll wait and have a look at this video and his paper. But it seems to me, based on that quote, we are just going to see standard trutherese and he won't be addressing the facts behind NIST's conclusions at all.

We shall see!
__________________
Can you people please stop not thinking? - Gorgonian

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
-Good luck America with President Trump
cantonear1968 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2011, 05:40 PM   #19
Thunder
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,918
Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
I'm perfectly content ignoring reality and believing everything the MSM and White House tells me.
Thunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th May 2011, 12:38 AM   #20
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,713
In the preface to his whitepaper:
Quote:
Sincere thanks are due to Chris Sarns, Andrew Donlan, Gregg Roberts, David Chandler and Dwain Deets
Tell me again, who is this Chris Sarns guy? Our own christopher7?


(And who is Andrew Donlan? As far as I can see, he hasn't signed the AE911"truth" "petition")
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th May 2011, 12:41 AM   #21
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,713
Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
Let's not bring truth or qualifications into this debate please.

I'm perfectly content ignoring reality and believing everything the MSM and White House tells me.
Do you believe everything AE911truth tells you? If yes, please explain why that is so. If not, please list at least one claim made on ae911truth.org that you consider to be false! (This is a test to see if you are ready to accept reality. No reply from you will be interpreted as you ignoring reality.)
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:14 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.