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#1 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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RLBaty's Argument for/against Atheism
IN another thread,RLBaty has presented the following argument:
Quote:
I wish to have this thread as an opportunity for RLBaty to defend his statement 3. RLBaty, Why do you believe the premises to be false? ETA:Note that the title's ambiguity reflects the ambiguity of RLBaty's approach to the discussion and I did not wish to mischaracterize it. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#2 |
Nasty Brutish and Tall
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 17,465
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#3 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#4 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 321
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I had wishes too, but none here would act in good faith in order that they might be realized.
So, pardon me if I think the conversation should take a different, reasonable course, step by step. So, let's try this again and see if any progress can be made regarding my argument and the claims I make for it. I will, with the setting up of this thread, try to resist the temptation to further patronize the anonymous snipers who may be intent on carrying on in that other thread. I will, in this thread, try to resist the temptation to respond to any poster except "joobz". Here's how I propose the chat here should proceed: Is my argument so constructed that if its premises are true its conclusion will follow as true therefrom? - RLBaty - Yes - Joobz - ??? Do atheists believe the premises of my argument to be true? - RLBaty - Yes - Joobz - ??? Is the major premise of my argument true? - RLBaty - No - Joobz - ??? Is the minor premise of my argument true? - RLBaty - No - Joobz - ??? Why do atheists believe the premises to be true? - To be discussed Why doesn't RLBaty believe the premises to be true? - To be discussed |
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#5 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,183
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#6 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,435
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RLBaty:
I laud moving the discussion away from GIBHOR's thread... over 60% of that thread was devoted to reaction to you, and I think poor GIBHOR simply abandoned it. People are free to, and may, post to this thread as well. I suggest after getting agreement from joobz to proceed, should that be granted, you take another strategy. If you click on a person's name right above their avatar picture, a menu pops down. One of the entries in this menu is to add a person to your ignore list. It'd be easier to ignore people if you don't see them. |
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#7 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
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#8 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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I will answer your questions as a means of facilitating discussion.
Is my argument so constructed that if its premises are true its conclusion will follow as true therefrom? - RLBaty - Yes - Joobz - Yes Do atheists believe the premises of my argument to be true? - RLBaty - Yes - Joobz - For the most part, yes. Is the major premise of my argument true? - RLBaty - No - Joobz - For the most part, yes. Is the minor premise of my argument true? - RLBaty - No - Joobz - For the most part, Yes. Why do atheists believe the premises to be true? I answered in the affirmative with this question as I believe it will help facilitate discussion. Note that I am using imagination in the loosest possible sense of the term, that god is a product solely of the mind. Our mental capacity is consistent with humans from at least 100,000 years ago. As such observations of modern human capacity is likely to have existed in humans 100,000 years ago. Briefly, The human cognitive modelling system exists to improve social interactions. This system allows for us to construct mental models of others to predict behaviors and know how our behavior will/can adjust their behavior. The heart of this model is the ability to assign agency (intent of action) to another human. This system has the unfortunate side effect of assigning agency to things that are not developed by a mind (e.g., weather patterns) and a supernatural mind begins to emerge as an explanation for these things. In other words, the evolving concept of god that has emerged in humans is effectively a form of Pareidolia. There is additional bits of evidence that are supportive to this point 1. such as the recorded evidence of a "God spot" in the brain, which when stimulated can recreate sensations of supernatural splendor. 2. the fact that people use the same self-model to decide their moral actions and the moral actions god would want them to do (instead of another moral action site). We will leave it there for now. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#9 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 33,339
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OK, I'll bite.
Is my argument so constructed that if its premises are true its conclusion will follow as true therefrom? - Dave Rogers - Yes. Do atheists believe the premises of my argument to be true? - Dave Rogers - No. Is the major premise of my argument true? - Dave Rogers - No Is the minor premise of my argument true? - Dave Rogers - Yes. Why do atheists believe the premises to be true? - I don't. It is not necessarily the case that, if Man was able to etc. etc., that Man necessarily did etc. etc. This is based on a form of the fallacy of affirming the consequent; it reverses the trivial conclusion that, if Man did originate the idea/concept of God through the power of imagination, then it is possible for Man to have originated the idea/concept of God through the power of imagination. I would argue that it is possible for Man to have originated the idea/concept of God through the power of imagination, that centuries of determined study have not produced compelling evidence for the existence of God, and that therefore the provisional, working conclusion to be reached, pending further evidence, is that God does not exist. This is a deduction from informal logic, not formal logic; I would further argue that formal logic is of no use in resolving this question. Dave |
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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#10 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
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Considering that confirmation bias, pattern recognition and associative learning are all part of the biology of brains, it seems to me that they do not fit into the categories of reason, imagination or revelation. Each of those processes are involved in the perception of qualities that may or may not be valid.
So the argument is limited and false in its simplistic categorizations. As an atheist I willing to discuss that there are alternatives to the three categories and that imagination is most likely not the reason at all for the idea of gods and beliefs in gods. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#11 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
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#12 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
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#13 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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In principle, I agree with you. But for purposes here, I think it acceptable to lump all forms of mental creationg of god into the imagination category. The way I am taking his point (and I hope this is what he means, as it would be a rather silly argument otherwise? Is god was either:
Deduced through sound mental reasoning.(reason) Put into man's mind by an external, potential divine source.(revalation) Or was a creation of mans mind through any inventive mechanism.(imagination) These categories aren't perfect, and overlap exists, with neuances being glossed over. But they are acceptable for the current discussion. If his point or retorts attempt to expoilt the loss in detail that occurs from this course graining, we will address it then. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#14 |
Quixoticist
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: ON Canada
Posts: 5,001
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Quote:
The claim that a particular idea is impossible for humans to muddle toward over a vast amount of time, however, does require an explanation, especially when that idea is some unspecified god concept. So what the heck? Why is the wish-fulfilling fantasy of god blather so hard to come up with? |
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"Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde |
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#15 |
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 31,260
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In other words, the burden of evidence is on the claimant. Someone claims God exists. Prove it.
As for this particular post, well, I would point out that religions transform into other religions and this is well-documented. Yahweh used to be part of a pantheon, of the hated Caananites (?), from whom these proto-Jews split, some of them "Yahwhists" who wanted a monotheistic god, and so they pared away the other members of the pantheon, including Ishtar, Yahweh's girlfriend. I used to joke that modern religious apologists would explain that by suggesting Satan had pre-planted that stuff knowing what would happen in centuries to come, so as to just make it seem like Judaism evolved from earlier stuff. Then I read writings by some 4th century guy who said exactly that, since the stuff existed and must be explained. |
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"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? |
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#16 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 20,248
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I think the problem is the major premise, which is impossible to support. Replace "God" with "elephants" and you can see what I mean. Just because it would be possible for humans to imagine something, doesn't necessarily mean that that thing originated with humans.
Ultimately that major premise seems dangerously akin to solipsism to me. I mean, equally I could definitely imagine a blue car outside even if I hadn't seen that particular combination before, but that doesn't necessarily make it a figment of my imagination. The dominant argument for atheism doesn't really go through that premise. That's more like just an explanation for why such a concept would appear in the absence of a god, but at that point you're already done with rejecting a god on other grounds. |
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#17 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 321
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Joobz,
Before attempting to move along with our chat, I will give you the opportunity to counsel the numerous interlopers who appear to have showed up. See my message #4 above. As my experience here has demonstrated, those people don't much listen to me. So, before I proceed in my chat with you, I will give you time to counsel those who are having trouble getting the message about your intentions regarding the setting up of this thread, according to your wishes and contrary to mine, and my intentions in accommodating your interests and compromising my own. Any who wish to obtain my personal response and chat directly with me, can find me via the website found in the "contact" section of my information page here. Anonymous applicants need not apply. |
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#18 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6,057
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Blah blah blah
Anyway, back to the topic at hand: Joobz, would you classify the human propensity for anthropomorphism as "imagination"? Would you classify pareidolia as "imagination"? Mental illness? Im not entirely comfortable with that, although I agree the distinction is unimportant at this point.... Until RLBaty's argument hinges on "imagination", and suddenly you want to change the definition ![]() |
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"Here we go again.... semantic and syntactic chicanery and sophistic sleight of tongue and pen.... the bedazzling magic of appearing to be saying something when in fact all that is happening is diverting attention from the attempts at shoving god through the trapdoor of illogic and wishful thinking." - Leumas |
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#19 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 321
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As previously discussed with joobz, I will be attempting to mirror the relevant parts of this discussion on my discussion list.
Joobz would not agree to cooperate in that wish of mine for the discussion he has proposed. So, among other things, it will slow the pace of the exchange down a bit. If any here is concerned about me leaving out what you think is an important part of this discussion of these important public issues, you are welcome to come around my place (see earlier message for how to find it) and add your comments. |
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#20 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6,057
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Oh good lord.
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"Here we go again.... semantic and syntactic chicanery and sophistic sleight of tongue and pen.... the bedazzling magic of appearing to be saying something when in fact all that is happening is diverting attention from the attempts at shoving god through the trapdoor of illogic and wishful thinking." - Leumas |
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#21 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#22 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
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If I were you, I'd go straight to the 'moving along with your chat' part. Something about ignoring everyone but joobz, as I recall. You failed. That truly is a mystery. What could possibly account for this? Any clues? You're funny. Is that a virtual stampede I hear? |
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#23 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
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__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
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#24 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
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You are stalling, you do not have to read those posts or respond to them, seriously Joobz should not counsel anyone and that is a weak excuse for you to avoid tehd iscussion.
I suppose next time you post this kind of tripe it can be reported as off topic. You can just look for Joobz avatar and ignore the rest. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#25 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 20,248
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Also, I'm sorry, Baty, but if you want to have a 1-on-1 chat, there are already private messages for that. Snide remarks about other forum members not treating it as some private conversation are kinda cute as a substitute for actually supporting a broken argument, but ultimately irrelevant. If something is supposed to be a private conversation, then it should be a private conversation, not a public thread.
Not to mention that if one argument is supposed to be valid and sound for joobz, then it ought to be valid and sound for everyone else. There is no such thing as The Gospel... err... Logic According To St Joobz, and The Logic According To St Baty, and The Logic According To St Dave Rogers, and so on ![]() Also not to mention that if something is supposed to be representative of some premises that atheists agree to, then I would think it should be relevant what a random sample of atheists actually think about those premises. You can't base such a generalization on a sample of 1, be it Joobz or anyone else. |
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#26 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 321
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I was content to proceed here, but I'll put my further participation on hold until I hear further from you regarding another option. I already knew that a moderated chat was possible; the details being the only stumbling block to producing such a thing. Beware of your course, however, joobz! That you claim you are going to work out the details suggests that you think you can, unilaterally, design the construct of the event. You are welcome to give that a try, but I suspect you are going to have trouble designing and producing such a thing without negotiating important details with me and without me being able to negotiate important details with any who may presume to participate and/or moderate such an event. For example, for purposes of such an event, one of my requirements is that there be no anonymous participants, including moderators. Confirming identities and basic employment, education, etc. background details would be a reasonable and normal process for setting up the context of the discussion. Assorted other details would also have to be, Randi-like, negotiated. You know me, though. I'll go with the flow and see where it is you are wanting to take this thing. I'll try to rest up for whatever might come down the pike. There's a big holiday weekend coming up around here. So, it may be that not much is going to change over the course of the next few days. |
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#27 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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as I move forward with getting a moderated debate with you, why not reply to my good faith response to your argument.
As you can see, jref is not monolithic and people here have a variety of very valuable ideas. I do not speak on their behalf and am not so presumptuous to think I could. To devull. I agree it is a shakey issue to lump those effects into imagination. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#28 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#29 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6,057
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So, there's his out.
Move along people, nothing to see here. |
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"Here we go again.... semantic and syntactic chicanery and sophistic sleight of tongue and pen.... the bedazzling magic of appearing to be saying something when in fact all that is happening is diverting attention from the attempts at shoving god through the trapdoor of illogic and wishful thinking." - Leumas |
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#30 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
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No, it isn't. It's coming across as a little bit creepy that you keep wanting to know personal details.
Your arguments will address other arguments, not the arguer. Any questions?
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#31 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 33,339
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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#32 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 321
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That impasse is so noted. If you prefer, we can continue here and see how it goes. The interlopers are welcome to do as they wish. Such activity, given the context of the discussion, adds important information for evaluating the exercise, as does the demand from you and/or moderators that you maintain your anonymity. Keep me advised. I've got some mirroring to do, and other things, and so it will be awhile before I get back to responding to your response to my first message; if that is the course you wish to take. |
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#33 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#34 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 52,381
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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#35 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 20,248
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Heh, yeah, this is starting to look more and more surrealistic. Having to negotiate participation and reveal personal details just to... what?... see RLBaty actually support an argument he's made on a public board? That's got to be one of the most Poe-worthy stall attempts I've seen in a while.
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#36 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
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__________________
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#37 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
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__________________
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#38 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,713
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How long til he's asking for the long form birth certificate?
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#39 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
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#40 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
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