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#1 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
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Have you guys and girls heard about this yet?
Boiron, a French company that produces homeopathic 'remedies' (most notably Oscillococcinum) is threatening legal actions against an Italian blogger, Samuele Riva. Basically Riva wrote about the nonsense of Oscillococcinum on his blog. Now I don't know if they have any case at all here, but it made me think whether this happens more often. I think it's pretty cowardly for such a big company to go after a lone blogger instead of the larger media that also criticize homeopathy. Also, I wanted to put it out there so that more people know about this, because they tried to censor his blog for writing about them. Here is a link to the English part of Riva's blog: http://www.blogzero.it/contatti/prova/ Also, SBM wrote about this: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...thic-thuggery/ You can find the letter they sent him on his blog, but it's in Italian, so I don't understand it. What do you think about this? And do you know of any other cases of such a big company trying to censor or sue individual bloggers or writers? |
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#2 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,771
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Ha! Idiotic move on the part of a company that relies on its customers' gullibility. Would love to see them in court "proving" that homeopathy works.
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#3 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,290
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Boiron attacks blogger
Samuele Riva, an Italian blogger published a description of the water labelled as oscillococcinum. Boiron, a French producer of this water, has threatened Riva and forced the withdrawal of mention of their name from the particular page. Boiron have complained that the comment was '“untrue and derogatory both of homeopathy and [the] company,”. As the blog is mainly in Italian and parts are now redacted, I cannot comment on the untrue part, but how can you be derogatory about a quack preparation (very true in this case) and a company that sells quackery when presenting the facts?
This has been reported in the BMJ and by Steven Novella in Science Based Medicine. Novella's article contains fascinating information about what is NOT in the water. I haven't found reference to this in the JREF Fora, if this is a duplicate or in the wrong section, please merge/delete as you feel appropriate. |
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#4 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 288
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#5 |
Masterblazer
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 6,842
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I think everyone who has a blog should post info like this. I think I will.
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Almo! My Music Blog "No society ever collapsed because the poor had too much." — LeftySergeant "It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia |
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#6 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 22,043
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Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
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#7 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,306
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Good page on Boiron here, including its letter threatening the blogger:
http://esowatch.com/en/index.php?title=Boiron |
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ebm-first.com What alternative health practitioners might not tell you. https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode |
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#8 |
Scholar
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 70
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When esowatch blogged yesterday about the topic, it created an avalance. Here in Germany about 20 blogs have reblogged the story. It even found its way to the stock news about of Boiron
![]() Well, I had never heard of Boiron before yesterday. And I guess, I am not alone. If this story spreads like the same wildfire as in Germany, it would be huge... It was "THE" social network story yesterday here in Germany... |
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#9 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,915
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Sounds like Boiron should have googled the Streisand_effectWP
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"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells |
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#10 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
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Indeed, the main reason I posted it here was to make sure more people knew about this. Of course, you all know that homeopathy is humbug, but maybe you didn't know they'd try to censor it like this. Anyway, I think the best way to fight this type of censorship is to spread the word.
And apparently it works, according to the link Blue Wode gave, the blog entry went from 150 views in the first 56 hours to thousands of views per day. Also, I've heard about homeopathy and oscillococcinum before, but I didn't really know Boiron at all. Now I do. |
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#11 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,467
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Cool, calm and collected response to the saga in BMJ here:
http://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d...#bmj_el_268827 Yuri |
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#12 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,306
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Informal English translation of letter sent by Boiron threatening blogger Samuele Riva:
Quote:
Via http://presenteduepuntozero.wordpres...alian-blogger/ |
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ebm-first.com What alternative health practitioners might not tell you. https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode |
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#13 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 33,588
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There's an English translation of Boiron's letter (translated by the author of the BMJ article) linked from there now. ETA: you were too quick for me. |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#14 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 33,588
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Perhaps they should have looked up Oscillococcinum on Wikipedia, where they would have found a link to a news story quoting "Boiron spokeswoman Gina Casey" as saying "Of course it is safe. There's nothing in it." |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#15 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 33,588
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With a response from George Lewith complaining that the BMJ have reported this ("why is this ill informed irrelevance news in the BMJ?"), citing "obvious vested interests on both sides", and quoting the (now withdrawn) Cochrane review dissected by Steven Novella. Does anyone know what the "obvious" vested interest of the blogger is? |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#16 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de Porciúncula
Posts: 21,263
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No, but we know the obvious vested interest of George Lewith of the Complementary Medicine Research Unit at the University of Southampton.
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#17 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,467
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Maybe he enjoys being sued by multi-billion multinational companies?
Takes all sorts you know... ![]() I think the 'obvious vested interest' that they are worried about is the same as the rest of us - it's best to be truthful. Obviously that runs contrary to most of the central tenents of homeopathy, particularly those making money out of it. Yuri |
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Visit rationalvetmed.net and rationalvetmed.org - because nothing is as good as homeopathy... ![]() 'No Way to Treat a Friend: Lifting the Lid on Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine' book now available to order. |
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#18 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,467
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In fairness his response seems pretty balanced. He reports the Cochrane report conclusion "Current evidence does not support a preventative effect of Oscillococcinum-like homeopathic medicines in influenza and influenza-like syndromes".
Bit strange about the vested interest thing though. Yuri |
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Visit rationalvetmed.net and rationalvetmed.org - because nothing is as good as homeopathy... ![]() 'No Way to Treat a Friend: Lifting the Lid on Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine' book now available to order. |
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#19 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 23,339
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I can see the problem in that text. He specifically mentions Boiron's name and product, and makes claims that it "damages your intelligence". This is objectively wrong.
If he were to tone it down just a little, there should be no problem; they would not dare to take a claim that there is nothing in it to court. I have an article on my homepage about homoeopathy, and I have had reactions. I had quoted some posts from a homoeopathic forum, and were asked to remove them. Since my point was not to beef with individual homoeopaths, I did so, but the article remains. This didn't keep them from slandering me on the forum. ![]() But, that's how it is, if you can't reach the ball, go for the man. ![]() Hans |
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Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
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#20 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,290
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#22 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 10,293
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The Center for Inquiry (CFI) and the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (CSI) have invited Boiron to sue them too:
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blog..._please_sue_us |
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As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities. - Voltaire. |
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#23 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,399
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Quote:
![]() Rolfe. |
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"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
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#24 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
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If I remember correctly, it was my mother's purchase of Oscillococcinum that caused me to look up what homeopathy was, which then led to the YouTube video of James Randi explaining it. I wouldn't have found my way here without the intentionally obscure Latin they used on the ingredients label.
So an extremely tiny negative to this story: If they sue, and lose on the grounds of false advertisement, someone else might not have a reason to research this garbage. So tiny it's probably turned back into a positive. |
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#25 |
Scholar
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 70
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Quack, Quack, Quackery...
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#26 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
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Here's another youtube vid on the subject
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4_Vu7juiok |
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How many zeros? Jabba |
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#27 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 331
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#28 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
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The story now made its way to national Italian media, namely the website of La Repubblica, a big newspaper in Italy: http://www.repubblica.it/salute/2011...gger-20549662/
Translation (I think reasonably good) here: http://translate.google.com/translat...er-20549662%2F From what I can tell the article doesn't really choose any side, but just reports the story and the reactions to it. Still, this means even more people will read about this. This is becoming one of the best examples of the Streisand Effect and I'm glad to be a part of it. I hope Boiron soon realises there's no stopping rational thinking people from telling it how it is. |
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#29 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
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It's also made its way to the German media
http://www.handelsblatt.com/technolo...r/4511866.html How long before the conflict make the English language mainstream? |
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How many zeros? Jabba |
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#30 |
Student
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 30
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I've just blogged on this myself (zenbuffy [dot] com/2011/08/whos-afraid-of-the-big-bad-wolf/), and some of you might be interested in Martin Robbins' miniblog (plus.google [dot] com/111513818314552647564/posts/eQP7vvYkGWF), which also includes some comments from Riva himself.
I think that an awful lot of people are declaring this case to be something it's not, simply because they're not reading all the material in question. I don't want to defend Boiron's behaviour, because I do think it's a bit bully-ish, but the simple fact of the matter is that Riva did use a copyrighted image without permission, and they do have a right to call him on that. Similarly, his blog did state that they advertise Oscill... as a cure for flu, which they very specifically (and I'm sure, purposely) don't. In Italy, falsely attributing a statement as fact like this falls very clearly under their defamation law. Ultimately, I don't like what Boiron are doing, but I also don't think it's correct to paint this as a David v Goliath style battle, because Riva did do some things wrong. When called on it, he posted on that miniblog saying that since it was just one copyrighted image, since his blog didn't get many viewers, and since "everyone else does it", they should leave him alone. It's this kind of sloppy thinking and writing which left the door open for Boiron to complain in the first place - copyright violation is copyright violation, even if you think the product is bunkum. Sorry for the mangled urls, I can't post links yet, but the discussion on Martin Robbins' page is really quite interesting and deserves a look. Anyone who can't get in due to a lack of Google Plus invite, pm me and I'll send you one as I have a few left over. |
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#31 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,421
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They certainly tell you to treat flu symptoms with it...and to get to a doctor if it doesn't cure the symptoms.
http://www.boironusa.com/products/oscillococcinum.php |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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#32 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
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I did look at Martin Robbins' page and your blog (I think I can't react on the Google+ page). Here are the links:
https://plus.google.com/111513818314...ts/eQP7vvYkGWF http://www.zenbuffy.com/2011/08/whos...-big-bad-wolf/ It's true that if he used a copyrighted image (and for now I trust he did) that is of course his mistake. But I have my questions about the cure thing. There's a discussion going on about the definition of "remedy" but it also says right on the package of Oscillococcinum that it's "Flu Medicine" and "Homeopathic Medicine". I'm not too sure about the definitions of these words, but they sure seem to imply to me that it's a cure. But like I said, I'm not sure of those definitions. I think that this is, like you (zenbuffy) and Martin Robbins seem to agree with me, splitting hairs and mostly besides the point. As Osc... neither relieves nor cures flu or flu-like symptoms. I surely hope that this doesn't give them any ammunition in their possible case against Riva. |
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#33 |
Student
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 30
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I think the definition of cure, remedy, etc. could definitely become an issue if it does go to court, and it would be interesting to see how that pans out.
Overall, I think it's an odd case - an awful lot of people rushing into it with very little information, and until we have a very accurate translation of the letter (and indeed of the blog) it's hard to get into the nitty-gritty of what is and isn't libel, especially when you start mixing in potential problem words like remedy/cure/etc. Re: not being able to contribute, are you on Google+? I thought it was a public page... |
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#34 |
Masterblazer
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 6,842
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Actually, if you look closely, they don't.
Quote:
ETA: at the bottom I see:
Quote:
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Almo! My Music Blog "No society ever collapsed because the poor had too much." — LeftySergeant "It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia |
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#35 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
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I agree.
You may have a point there. Speaking for myself, I didn't post it to get into the nitty-gritty part (at least not initially). I think that aside from the legal point of view and the varying definitions it's pretty clear what they tried to do here, namely to try and stop negative publicity about them. I don't think you should refrain from speaking out on this issue just because you don't know all the details. But like I said, I do get your point. I can watch the page, but I can't reply. If you have to sign up for Google+ to reply, then it makes sense, as I didn't. I didn't really try hard to figure out how to reply though. |
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#36 |
Student
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 30
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Ok, well, if you'd like an invite, I have a bunch. I'm not even sure if you need an invite any more though!
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#37 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 10,293
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This may not be the current packaging, but apparently previously they have made those claims: http://images.swansonvitamins.com/en.../BRN003_Xl.jpg ETA: This back panel is hard to read, but it does say "Temporarily relieves flu-like symptoms...": http://www.centerforinquiry.net/imag...-081711-02.jpg |
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As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities. - Voltaire. |
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#38 |
Student
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 30
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You see, I suspect this is where there will be a legal problem. By saying things like "relieve flu like or flu symptoms" they avoid saying "cure". They're not curing flu, or even treating it, they're just just relieving the symptoms. I suspect that they can say things like "relieve symptoms" in much the same way as makeup commercials can use phrases like "may reduce wrinkles" - i.e. that there is no proof, so they can't say "definitely gets rid of every wrinkle ever" so they just dance around the point instead...
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#39 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,290
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Looks like the tables have been turned and Boiron is being sued in California.
Does anybody know how these things progress? |
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#40 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,421
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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