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Old 20th April 2004, 08:29 AM   #1
Chris Haynes
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Oh No!! It is a mercury overload... lets dump chelators into the kid!

I am part of a listserv for my son's neurological speech/language disability (oral motor dyspraxia with dysphasia and functional dysarthria).

Most of the time the information shared is highly useful stuff (therapy practices, insurance issues and education options). But once in a while you will a whacked out subject. Some of them are pretty benign (oil supplements), somewhat goofy (cranial sacral massage --- like that would repair the damage in the brain), and then you get the anti-vaccination group.

Sigh.

If you post something that does goes against their "information" you will get nasty-grams back. One parent was an epidemiologist who wrote a message with a nice detailed explanation of herd immunity. Apparently she was emailed lots of messages that she did not know what she was talking about!

One tried to get me banned or restricted from the listserv because I posted a clarification that the MMR never contained thimerosal. My post was going to be denied... but finally it went through but with the identification of the person who had given the misinforation removed.

Anyway, lately there was a question by a parent about getting a child tested for "mercury overload".

I wrote back trying to assure her that it was not necesary, that thimerosal has been removed from most pediatric vaccines, that there is no proof thimerosal caused neurological problems ...

AND that anyone who offers "hair testing" was a scammer trying to sell a worthless oral chelation (I still do not understand why anyone would want to dump MORE chemicals into a kid).

I really hate folks who try to cash in the the fears of parents of kids with disabilities.

Anyway, this morning I got a backlash which included this:

THIMERASOL WAS ONLY REMOVED FROM VACCINES GIVEN TO INFANTS, NOT THOSE GIVEN TO OLDER CHILDREN. ALSO, THEY ARE STILL ON THE SHELF. YOU NEED TO READ THE INGREDIENT LIST BEFORE LETTING YOUR DR VACCINATE YOUR CHILD. OR ASK FOR A SINGLE-DOSE VACCINE THAT WOULD NOT HAVE THIMERASOL IN IT. ***** THERE IS A LOT OF PROVEN INFO SHOWING THAT MERCURY HURTS OUR KIDS. GO TO AUTISM RESEARCH INSTITUTE WEBSITE.

Why do they have to post in all caps? Why do they tell you to go to a website, but not provide the URL? Why do they claim that there is lots of research but do not tell us what it is?

Why do I bother?

Oh... wait I know. I had at least a couple of parents tell me they felt guilty about NOT following the loud vocal crowd. They liked knowing that sometimes the loudest are not often the most knowledgible.

"edited for stupid grammar error: caution this may contain more"
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Old 20th April 2004, 08:58 AM   #2
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Desperate people can cling to desperate beliefs. "It's for the children" has led to some extreme behavior and actions, I think most significantly for people with sick kids. I know a mother who had a child stricken with leukemia almost sell their house at a huge loss because there were underground power lines at the back of their property.

Hang in there and assure the people who trust you that lack of hysterical action is NOT lack of caring or compassion.
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Old 20th April 2004, 09:46 AM   #3
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Re: Oh No!! It is a mercury overload... lets dump chelators into the kid!

Quote:
Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide
Why do they tell you to go to a website, but not provide the URL?
Because it sounds more offcial.
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Old 20th April 2004, 09:53 AM   #4
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Thanks... I will try to trudge on.

I have also noticed that lots of this mis-information and actual leading of parents to chelate their kids is at an "Autism-Mercury Yahoo Group":
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/


ick ick

Until later... actual work awaits.
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Old 20th April 2004, 10:16 AM   #5
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This really is seriously scary. How can people be so paranoid about tiny amounts of something, not enough to do any damage even if they were there but anyway they aren't there in the first place, and yet so casual about genuinely dangerous therapy?

I presume they're using EDTA? Licensed for the treatment of heavy metal poisoning indeed, because it releases the sodium or potassium of the original salt and preferentially removes the heavy metals from solution. We use it quite often for lead poisoning - hint, when scraping six layers of Edwardian paint from a Victorian house, lock your pets out of the room.

But the other thing we use it for is in vitro as an anticoagulant. If you don't want your blood sample to clot (trust me, you'll never get any sensible haematology results from it if it does), you put it into a container with a bit of EDTA. This preferentially picks up the calcium from the blood, and binds it away in a salt where it cannot be utilised. Since the cascade system which is responsible for blood clotting requires calcium at several important stages, such blood will not clot. Works a treat.

Now calcium in vivo is required for more things than blood clotting. Transmission of neuromuscular impulses for a start, and the first sign of hypocalcaemia is usually tetany.

And did I mention that EDTA will chelate magnesium too? And just about any bivalent cation you care to name? Things which are terribly important to normal body function?

This is why you have to be pretty damn careful when treating lead poisoning, and this is not stuff to be handed out like sweeties I can tell you.

So why are these parents happy to let a woo-woo quack give this extremely powerful chemical to their children, when they're so suspicious of even a trace of other things?

Rolfe.
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Old 20th April 2004, 10:49 AM   #6
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Isn't chelation therapy also supposed to be fairly painful? (Not sure where I got that idea - possibly pain is a consequence of the loss of the various ions in the blood?)

At the very least, the treatment should follow-up with supplements to build up the supply of nutrients stripped from the blood in the process.
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Old 20th April 2004, 10:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rolfe
But the other thing we use it for is in vitro as an anticoagulant. If you don't want your blood sample to clot (trust me, you'll never get any sensible haematology results from it if it does), you put it into a container with a bit of EDTA.
From a Dana Carvey routine:

"Mr. Fong...on the day you handled the bloody glove...did you...shampoo your hair?"

Of course, EDTA is also used in shampoos and soaps to remove the calcium from hard water. Apparently calcium is not good to have around for soaps.

It was a deal in the OJ trial because there was a question about whether EDTA was in the blood sample that was claimed to be on the glove. If it had EDTA in it, then they could claim it was a stored blood sample and thus planted.

They were trying to use tandem mass spectrometry to show the presence of EDTA, which can be identified by its negative ion or positive ion CID spectrum. I saw when they had some supposed expert witness there who was claiming that he saw the characteristic EDTA peak. I have taken a lot of CID spectra in my life, and I have to say, no one in their right mind would have assigned the bump in the spectrum as a peak (I don't know if they asked him about the strength of the signal compared to the signal-to-noise level). Regardless, when they ran an actual sample, the EDTA peak was monstrous.
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Old 20th April 2004, 10:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wrath of the Swarm
At the very least, the treatment should follow-up with supplements to build up the supply of nutrients stripped from the blood in the process.
At the very least, they shouldn't be doing it in the first place!

(I don't know if it's painful or not. I don't think there's any particular need to give analgesics when treating lead poisoning.)

Rolfe.
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Old 20th April 2004, 11:01 AM   #9
Rolfe
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Quote:
Originally posted by pgwenthold
It was a deal in the OJ trial because there was a question about whether EDTA was in the blood sample that was claimed to be on the glove. If it had EDTA in it, then they could claim it was a stored blood sample and thus planted.
That's really, really interesting.

Memo to self: next time, when planting fake bloodstains, use ACD blood, or even better, get some in heparin.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th April 2004, 11:18 AM   #10
pgwenthold
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rolfe
That's really, really interesting.

Memo to self: next time, when planting fake bloodstains, use ACD blood, or even better, get some in heparin.

There was really a lot to the OJ trial that didn't make pop press. It was also very easy for me to see how hard it must be for the jury because the evidence was, in some cases, very, very technical. OTOH, from what I saw, it ended up basically being lost on the general audience of the jury, who didn't know enough about what was going on to be able to evaluate the testimony (see my rant in the Shermer/Hovind debate thread about why these types of things don't work).
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Old 20th April 2004, 11:36 AM   #11
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This sort of thing ticks me off to no end. Being the parent of a disabled child, I have heard of many 'treatments' that would help my child, but upon further investigation were nothing but fluff.

I think parents of disabled children are easy prey because we soooo want our children to be normal, we so want them to be healthy and happy, and so it breeds an environment where we are desperately looking for answers and the first 'reasonable' sounding solution that promises us that normality, that wellness, many parents are ready to jump on it.

Also, I think there are a lot of people who are searching for someone or thing to blame for their child's problem, and it is easier to blame the doctors and the vaccines and whatever than just plain poor circumstances.

Unfortunately there are charlatans who are willing to take advantage of the confused and desperate condition of parents. Who are happy to prey on the fear, the uncertainty, the pain to make a point or to make a buck or two.

It is hard to be the lone voice in the wilderness, and it is hard to be that voice when you want so much to help you beloved child and so many voices are screaming at you, "DO THIS!".

Best of luck.
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Old 20th April 2004, 12:29 PM   #12
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Sighs,

Thank you for posting that Hydrogen Cyanide. I've never learned more about chelation therapy than in this thread.

Quote:
So why are these parents happy to let a woo-woo quack give this extremely powerful chemical to their children, when they're so suspicious of even a trace of other things?
This really is bugging me too. What is the therapy pushed as? Natural? Or it's just the excuse to dangle a carrot in front of parents as a cure all no matter what the therapy really is? AND, the quack is the one to trust doncha know...afterall, they are exposing the Dr/drug company conspiracy to poison all the children in the world (gag me).

I would really hope that you can post some of Rolfe's explanation on what the therapy will really do.

Do you know the procedure they are using on these kids?

I'm getting more and more afraid when I let my son go to his dad's place. He believes that my son does not have tourettes, that it's all my fault that the kid is hyper, etc. Good ol dad is going to get some accupuncture done on himself in hopes that it will help him with his troubling vanishing white matter disease (he is being diagnosed as that his myelin sheaths are vanishing). I'm just wondering if he's taken my son for any therapies he hasn't told me about. My son never gets his meds when he goes over there for gosh sakes. I thought he was, but his med bottle came back full this last time he went for Easter.

hmph.

Why why why why ***thumps head***
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Old 20th April 2004, 02:41 PM   #13
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Well, I understand why you're peeved, no doubt about it, HCN.

My older daughter was classified as disgraphic (dyslexic with handwriting, left/right, etc), and while we didn't enter much into the support things (quite some tutoring seems to have dealt with the problem quite well), we did get some of the quack stuff sent to us by various people who seemed to mean well.

The joke is, however, on them, in this case, I can comfortably say I'm sure it's genetic.

Very sure.

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Old 20th April 2004, 02:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
My son never gets his meds when he goes over there for gosh sakes. I thought he was, but his med bottle came back full this last time he went for Easter.
I don't know what kind of meds they use for Tourette's, but isn't it very nasty to start/stop the meds all at once?

This sounds almost dangerous.
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Old 20th April 2004, 06:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by jj


I don't know what kind of meds they use for Tourette's, but isn't it very nasty to start/stop the meds all at once?

This sounds almost dangerous.
Well, he did sleep and sleep and sleep after he got home. His dad says it's because he DID give him the meds that the kid got sleepy. Yeah right, that's why he's back to normal bounce now on his meds (not overly hyper hyper bounce before he ever had his meds though) and his bottle of meds was still full when I gave him exactly the amount he needed over those few days. I think he gave him one dose before he brought him home, and after a few days of no meds and very little sleep as a result, of course the kid crashed. He takes a very tiny dose of anti-psychotics (risperdal), and a normal dose of wellbutrin-standard mix of drugs for helping tourettes. At least the kid isn't smelling and seeing things that aren't there, and his moods are more stable. Doesn't do much for his hyperactivity though, but there is a difference. His tics have always been livable (some funny noises and a few different physical tics), so no meds for those. He can at least be in school without trying to drive his desk around the classroom and freaking out when somebody walks by him too closely.

If I didn't know his dad was going to die a horrible death, then I would never have let him take the boy that long, but it is the last time he visits that long. I have every right to object to more than one overnight stay on these grounds. His dad is also deteriorating and shouldn't be driving.

It's funny though, when accupuncture does nothing for ol' dad, I can show the boy why accupuncture is a load of BS. I'm just feeling bad because he is losing his dad, but at the same time I'm not feeling guilty about pointing out why all the stuff his dad does is no good. I always told my son his dad would be in bad shape because of his drinking and smoking. I had no idea his behaviour would make unknown bad health situation worse, and show how right I was. Weird.


Anyhoo, back on about what chelation we're talking about for the defenseless autistic kids.
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Old 22nd April 2004, 11:39 AM   #16
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"We get into this argument everytime you start writing about mercury. I just returned from the DAN! conference where about 1000 people heard many doctors and researchers talk of the problems caused by thimerisol. There is a lot of research showing that it is causing our autism epidemic. You can beleive what you want but please don't stop people from researching vaccines and thimerisol before vaccinating their kids. People like you are dangerous. I just wish someone had educated me on the possible problems of vaccinations before i had my son vaccinated. He is now autistic. The Autism Research Institute is a REAL place and you are showing your ignorance by your statement. It is difficult enough to be a parent of an autistic child but to hear others treat us like we are spewing garbage is very upsetting. We are talking about the truth and soon it will proven."

I am dangerous and evil...

I can live with that... though personally I think the folks who are deluding these poor parents, taking their money and dumping other chemicals into them are criminal... and deserve jail time or at minimum this:
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/edelsonsuit.html
and
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/edelsonsuit2.html

By the way the "Autism Research Institute" is listed here:
http://www.quackwatch.org/04Consumer...nonrecorg.html

Editted to add:
I feel for you so much Eos... you have a hard row to hoe... lots of cyber hugs to you and your kids.
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Old 22nd April 2004, 10:12 PM   #17
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I don't have kids, I have never been called names yet for my skepticism in a serious way, so I don't know what it's like for you, Hydrogen Cyanide, but I think voicing opposition to these obviously crap treatments is a good thing.

Well you already said, some parents might buy this crap to stop feeling guilty about doing nothing, but with your voice there, they can be assured they are doing whats best. If it doesn't get you down I would urge you continue just telling the truth that the facts support.

Good luck, and you have my support, though it is made up of no more than words.
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Old 22nd April 2004, 10:59 PM   #18
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Oh, SquishyDave from Down Under... those words actually help. (though the bike ride I had with my hubby at lunch on this absolutely glorious spring day also helped).

She sent me another message calling me a fool. sigh

I try to avoid ad hominem... and I actually do not think it is warrented here, because I really think she is a victim. I sent this message back:

You seem to be high on emotion, and very low on actual data.

(to be fair... in my former life I was a structures engineer specializing in random vibration analysis --- mostly in the interaction of landing gear with the tarmac --- this requires the use of lots of statistics, so I can pretty much tell when numbers are being used poorly, like by Rimland and the Geiers. Also I have been part of this to see the evolution of all the "theories" starting in 1990).

You have my deepest empathy for what you deal with every day... and I really really hope that you son is not harmed by some of the "DAN" treatments (especially the EDTA, which is quite nasty).... or find yourself financially strapped with certain unproven therapies (like the $120 head massages).

I hope it all goes well for you... and that you learn to trust the university researchers (like at the MIND institute at UC Davis).

Good luck

PS: I just had an interesting conversation with an SLP who works at the UW's Experimental Educatoin Unit (http://depts.washington.edu/eeuweb/ ).... she recently had a conversation with a mom who was touting the miracles of the "no casein/gluten" diet, but totally ignored the hours of speech therapy that she had provided for the child. A definite roll-eyes moment.
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Old 22nd April 2004, 11:12 PM   #19
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Oh! You're married. I'm just trying to pick up by pretending to care.

Seriously, you are being far nicer than I might be, which is a credit to you, I wonder how long before your penpal has enough of facts and stops writing to you, but remember, you may just plant a seed of doubt that will send out a shoot one day when her quack makes a mistake, or says something really stupid.

I have found, in my very limited experience, that most people never even consider there might be another side, or that there is usually misinformation on both sides of the argument, and just getting them to think about that is extremely valuable. The message I usually have to leave with someone after a discussion where I challenge their belief is "Take nothing for granted". I doubt it works, but it's better than nothing.
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Old 22nd April 2004, 11:19 PM   #20
Chris Haynes
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Quote:
Originally posted by SquishyDave
Oh! You're married. I'm just trying to pick up by pretending to care.

Seriously, you are being far nicer than I might be, which is a credit to you, I wonder how long before your penpal has enough of facts and stops writing to you, but remember, you may just plant a seed of doubt that will send out a shoot one day when her quack makes a mistake, or says something really stupid.

I....
Oooh... Something I really need!! A major ego boost!!

thanks... and yes, I do feel that it helps to plant a small seed of doubt.
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Old 23rd April 2004, 08:55 PM   #21
Eos of the Eons
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Squishy, you're really a cuddly bunch of common sense.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide
"We get into this argument everytime you start writing about mercury. I just returned from the DAN! conference where about 1000 people heard many doctors and researchers talk of the problems caused by thimerisol. There is a lot of research showing that it is causing our autism epidemic. You can beleive what you want but please don't stop people from researching vaccines and thimerisol before vaccinating their kids. People like you are dangerous. I just wish someone had educated me on the possible problems of vaccinations before i had my son vaccinated. He is now autistic. The Autism Research Institute is a REAL place and you are showing your ignorance by your statement. It is difficult enough to be a parent of an autistic child but to hear others treat us like we are spewing garbage is very upsetting. We are talking about the truth and soon it will proven."

I am dangerous and evil...

I can live with that... though personally I think the folks who are deluding these poor parents, taking their money and dumping other chemicals into them are criminal... and deserve jail time or at minimum this:
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/edelsonsuit.html
and
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/edelsonsuit2.html

By the way the "Autism Research Institute" is listed here:
http://www.quackwatch.org/04Consumer...nonrecorg.html

Editted to add:
I feel for you so much Eos... you have a hard row to hoe... lots of cyber hugs to you and your kids.
Aw thanks, and I'm feeling lucky. My Co-worker has an ex that got their son in his custody, took him off his meds, and encourages him to blame his mom for all his problems, that he was never officially diagnosed as having anything since the interference by daddy caused him to go undiagnosed. That's truly depressing. The 10 year old kid physically hurts others when he gets mad at them. My co-worker says he has very similar symptoms as my son. I really feel for her.

Autism epidemic hey? How about the fact that the rates of autism have not dropped at all since thimersol has been completely removed from all the childhood vaccines. I'm digging around for some stats and facts that are legit on this

Quote:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/in...3846466280.xml


Solid science and vaccines: No link between autism, shots; parentsshould immunize kids Wednesday, March 17, 2004
Suspicions about the MMR vaccine and autism have arisen because the vaccine is administered about the time autism is typically diagnosed. Interest has focused on thimerosal, a preservative used in the vaccine. No credible scientific evidence has implicated that organic mercury compound. In Denmark, for instance, thimerosal was dropped from vaccines in 1992. Yet research shows the incidence of autism there has continued to increase. Other studies have similarly failed to establish a causal relationship.

The BMJ reports on an article from Pahrmacotherapy which looks at why the incidence of autism appears to have risen:

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...328/7436/364-b

"We documented that the number of children [in the United Kingdom] diagnosed with `behaviour' and `developmental' disorders, but not autism, tended to decrease by about 20% per year from 1992 to 2000. By contrast, the diagnosis of autism increased by 20% per year during this time period," said Hershel Jick, lead author of the study and associate professor of medicine at Boston University School of Medicine."


"Autism and Vaccines"
Wall Street Journal (www.wsj.com) (02/09/04) P. A26

For example, the National Alliance for Autism Research,
which is steadfastly independent, found through a rigorous Danish study it co-funded that there is probably no association between the measles-mumps-rubella combination vaccine and autism, yet naysayers immediately attacked the group and slandered its activities despite its record of thoughtful research...

But if the research disproves a connection--as it has up to now--the autism community needs to listen and move on," as research funding only stretches so far and "parents of autistic children deserve to see the money spent where it will do the most good."



Wall Street Journal
www.opinionjournal.com

Autism and Vaccines
Activists wage a nasty campaign to silence scientists.

Monday, February 16, 2004 12:01 a.m.


...We felt someone ought to point out that nothing currently exists in the medical world to justify this furor--that thimerosal has never
been credibly linked to autism, and that recent studies in leading
medical journals have also failed to find a link. That research is one of many reasons the medical community remains solid in its belief that vaccines are safe.

While we don't know what causes autism, we do know that diseases like measles cause blindness and brain damage. Doctors are already struggling to be heard over Internet rumors, and they report that parents are increasingly nervous about vaccines.
That's how paranoia started in England and Ireland, where parents were swept up in autism claims and refused to immunize. Ireland, a country with a population 77 times smaller than that of the U.S., reported
2,000 measles cases in 2002. The U.S. had 37.

As it happens, the thimerosal flap has already taken a human toll.
Health officials recommended taking thimerosal out of vaccines in 1999 to help calm fears--but this only fueled claims of a government cover-up.
Worse, as Dr. Offit reported in a recent issue of Pediatrics, some hospitals misinterpreted thimerosal-related recommendations and suspended some vaccinations for newborns. One institution later reported the death, from acute hepatitis B-induced liver failure, of a three-month-old infant who wasn't immunized.



By Megan Rauscher
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - The results of a large new study show no relationship between measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccination and the development of autism.

In 2001, a panel of experts convened by the Institute of Medicine rejected the contention that MMR vaccination causes autism, based on overall data at a population level. The panel did, however, encourage additional studies to assess the possibility that there are a few children who might be at ncreased risk of autism from MMR vaccination.

With this in mind, Dr. Frank DeStefano from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta and colleagues compared the MMR vaccination histories of 624 autistic children and a control group of 1824 school-matched non-autistic children.

In a telephone interview with Reuters Health, DeStefano said that "children with autism received their first MMR vaccine at similar ages as children without autism, so this study supports the weight of the evidence from previous studies that didn't find an association between the MMR vaccine and autism."

The majority of both autistic children (70.5 percent) and control (67.5 percent) children were vaccinated by the recommended age of 12 to 15 months, according to an article in the medical journal Pediatrics.

Likewise, when the team analyzed different age cutoffs, they found that similar proportions of case and control children were vaccinated before 18 or before 24 months of age, when developmental abnormalities are usually recognized.

The data also show no MMR-autism connection in any of the subgroups of children analyzed, including those who seemed to be developing normally and then regressed, and those who developed up to a certain point and then reached a plateau.

"Of the subgroups that we've been evaluating, probably the one of most concern is regressive autism and we didn't find any association with the MMR vaccine," DeStefano said.


http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/conce...efault.htm#aap
Send your pal all this evidence the studies have drudged up.
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Old 24th August 2005, 05:20 PM   #22
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An update of sorts...

About a week ago I un-subscribed to the Apraxia-Kids listserv (their website is www.apraxia-kids.org... but I stopped visiting since they started to make people subscribe). Every attempt I made to discuss the fact that chelation is NOT a good idea, I was shot down. Even by the list moderator who actually posted the Autism/Mercury Yahoo group as a good source of information.

I was also getting irritated with autism being discussed like it was the only thing... it is NOT an autism listserv!

The straw that broke the camel's back came when someone emailed me trying to explain how wrong I was... and then I was told that this parent worked for Jeff Bradstreet (one of the big autism quacks). So I gave up.

The interesting thing is that the list-owner and moderator live near Pittsburgh. Which is near where a 5 year old child died yesterday while undergoing chelation:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05236/559444.stm

I am almost curious to know what is happening now on that list... but not enough to rejoin. My blood pressure is finally back to normal.

Edited to insert a very crucial "not"
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Old 24th August 2005, 05:36 PM   #23
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It gets tiresome after a while doesn't it? I would have left long ago. But you did help some parents, and so did your part.
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Old 24th August 2005, 08:23 PM   #24
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Oh, I'll bet they're making all kinds of excuses. I'll bet they are defending the person who gave the "therapy". I've already heard rumours they are trying to chalk it up as an allergic reaction.

I'll snoop around a bit.

This will happen again. There is no proof for the reasons they chelate, and I echo others when I hope that they check that dead child's brain for all that mercury that is supposed to be swimming around in it.

Ookayyyy:

http://www.wpamin.com/PDFs/campmeeti...edule%2005.pdf

Quote:
God’s Natural Medicine
Powell Hall
Leader: Dr. Roy Kerry
http://allergies.about.com/cs/bioset/a/aa080601a.htm
Quote:
Organ-specific homeopathic detoxifying nutrients are used to detoxify the body. These remedies not only detoxify, they have also been formulated to aid lymphatic drainage. Drainage is vital. Many detoxification protocols flush toxins from the body, but do not drain them allowing the toxins to remain in the body. Increasing water intake is indicated while detoxifying as well.

Other notable physicians using this treatment include Dr. Roy Kerry, MD, (a well-known allergist)
"Environmental Toxicity" Roy Kerry MD

He gives a good deal of talks, and can be found on lists recommended for "natural healing" talks, etc.
http://www.healthchoicesnetwork.com/speakers_bureau.htm

I'm wondering what kind of "chelator" he used?
Quote:
Beneficial Effects of Enzyme-Based Therapy for Autism Spectrum Disorders
by Mark A. Brudnak PhD, ND, Bernard Rimland PhD, Roy E. Kerry MD, Margaret Dailey CRNP, Robert Taylor MD, Bruce Stayton MD, Frank Waickman MD, Michael Waikman MD, Jon Pangborn PhD & Ilene Buchholz RN
A pilot study was done to assess the exorphin (exogenous opiate-type peptides) theory of autism using dietary enzyme therapy. This enzyme formula showed significant benefits in only 12 weeks of supplementation.
http://www.townsendletter.com/Oct2003/Oct2003.htm
Just check the crap on vaccinations on that web page. Vaccination does not cause any "bypassing of the immune syste". argh argh argh

Kerry is also on tape, along with others lying about vaccination:

http://instatapes.com/modules.php?na...article&sid=21

His is called "Bioenergetic Approaches to Assessment & Treatment: An Emerging Model in Medical Practice - Roy E. Kerry, MD, FAAEM"

Bio energetic??
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Old 24th August 2005, 11:32 PM   #25
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Well it finally appeared on google.news, and Dr. Barrett has been quoted:
http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-.../s_367277.html

I sent an email to a couple of journalists that I saved what I sent them in my "Sent" file ( see http://www.internationalskeptics.com...threadid=40903 ... and it is only because I just recently set my hotmail account to save the sent files!). The email is titled "Autism+Chelation=Death?"

If they respond with anything intelligent it will be noted on this thread... otherwise it will be in the one where journatlists are described as idiots.
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Old 25th August 2005, 12:01 AM   #26
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Well. I got to this thread late. (What else is new?) But I would like to give a huge nod to Rolfe.

I've studied enough Biochem by this point to know what EDTA does. I imagine it could be painful, simply due to the enzymes it is deforming. It seems when you remove those divalent cations, the enzymes ceases function. BTW, Rolfe, EDTA will chelate just about any metal cation. (Ethyl Diamine Tetra Acetate) It's hexadentine, meaning it has six binding sites. It is harder for it to take the magnesium out of an enzyme because it isn't as favorable, entropically. Serum calcium will go first, as it has at least 2 water molecules associated with it. When EDTA binds, you recieve a net increase of one molecule freed, thus net entropy gain. The real danger is it reducing the serum levels of things like magnesium and iron. EDTA doesn't dissociate easily, both from an entropic and spatial arrangement. Most of the serum cations will go out with the urine. What you get is magnesium and iron being dissociated out of proteins due to Le Chatlier's(sp?). If you give your kids EDTA long enough, and they don't get enough of these mineral to replace the loss, then you will see a net drop in enzyme kinetics. Bad juju.

BTW, it is used for lead poisoning because lead is a higher valence cation. Usually the higher valence cations will bind preferentially due to entropy. (six water molecules freed as opposed to two, comparing to calcium.) Calcium goes first in a healthy body because it is most available. Yes, this will mess with your nervous system, as it will disrupt the calcium/potassium pump we rely on to transmit signals, but in a child, if you continued long enough, I imagine you'd see loss of bone density or lack of density formation.

I memorized the clotting cascade at one time, but it has been a long while. I'm now unsure where calcium comes into the equation, but I'm sure that some of the enzymes, and co-enzymes, are likely to be disrupted by EDTA. But I think this may be the tip of the iceberg in the long run.


These doctors should be prosecuted....

The mothers should be persecuted, but that is just an opinion.
Keep up the good fight, HCN. If you get through to even one, it may be a difference.


*%&*(#&$(*(#*# Anti-vaxx#*&&(*#@(*#**$#(*
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Old 25th August 2005, 12:49 AM   #27
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Is EDTA (ethylene diamine tetra-acetic acid) therapy painful because it is actually injected? (As clarsct pointed out it will chelate or bind to every metal ion in solution – doubly or trebly charged cations bind to it more strongly, i.e. Fe3+ or Mg2+ at the expense of Na+ , and therefore eventually affect enzyme actions.) Again, as it must administered as its sodium salt, an EDTA solution will be necessarily quite basic, maybe pH 10 – 11, this cannot be a good thing to introduce in your bloodstream or your gut if it is administered by mouth.

I was introduced to EDTA in 1st year chemistry. As a metal binder you can use it to quantitatively determine the amount of magnesium, ferric, nickel ion etc. in solution in precisely the same way you do an acid-base titration. The mind boggles that something so pernicious should be administered indiscriminately.
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Old 25th August 2005, 11:44 AM   #28
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In the article you can see it was the kid's 3rd treatment. Thanks to the last 2 posters for posting on what it does to the body. I didn't know quite that much until now.

I'll have to quote Rolfe here:

Quote:
So why are these parents happy to let a woo-woo quack give this extremely powerful chemical to their children, when they're so suspicious of even a trace of other things?
Right!

What do they tell parents about chelation? The parents buy into the fuzzy woo logic.

Actual science, actual medicine, have to inform people as to what exactly is being done. You are then told the risks. Not so with sCAM.With sCAM you are lied to about risk and efficacy.

Thanks for the link to the TRIBUNE-REVIEW HCN. It was a great article for once.
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Old 25th August 2005, 02:28 PM   #29
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Anybody tries to tell you that the tiny bit of mercury (allegedly) in vaccines makes kid autistic, you tell them to google "Minamata", and find out what mercury poisoning actually does to kids. And then ask them why that part of Japan doesn't now have a whole generation of autists.
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Old 27th August 2005, 05:50 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by anor277
Is EDTA (ethylene diamine tetra-acetic acid) therapy painful because it is actually injected? (As clarsct pointed out it will chelate or bind to every metal ion in solution – doubly or trebly charged cations bind to it more strongly, i.e. Fe3+ or Mg2+ at the expense of Na+ , and therefore eventually affect enzyme actions.) Again, as it must administered as its sodium salt, an EDTA solution will be necessarily quite basic, maybe pH 10 – 11, this cannot be a good thing to introduce in your bloodstream or your gut if it is administered by mouth.

I was introduced to EDTA in 1st year chemistry. As a metal binder you can use it to quantitatively determine the amount of magnesium, ferric, nickel ion etc. in solution in precisely the same way you do an acid-base titration. The mind boggles that something so pernicious should be administered indiscriminately.
A nod to the correction of my terminology. It has been a while since organic.

Another nod to the pH. That could be the source of the pain, now that I'm thinking about it more. I also wonder if any of these poor kids are anemic.

We all want to do what is best for our children. It is so human to want to do so. It makes me sick that some scumbags are going to profit from these people's good intentions. I imagine some of these folks are innocently self-deluded, but I also imagine some aren't.

BTW, just because the are innocently self deluded does not mean they are harmless. Several spiders can harm you or maybe even kill you as innocently as a kitten scratches. This doesn't mean they are evil, as there is no intent to harm. Yet, they are harmful anyway.
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Old 27th August 2005, 06:00 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by clarsct
A nod to the correction of my terminology. It has been a while since organic.

Another nod to the pH. That could be the source of the pain, now that I'm thinking about it more. I also wonder if any of these poor kids are anemic.
At the risk of being labelled a smart arse, it is also a "sexadentate" ligand. (PS by the way "tetra acetate" is perfectly correct!)
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Old 27th August 2005, 06:34 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by sophia8
Anybody tries to tell you that the tiny bit of mercury (allegedly) in vaccines makes kid autistic, you tell them to google "Minamata", and find out what mercury poisoning actually does to kids. And then ask them why that part of Japan doesn't now have a whole generation of autists.
Pink desease is anouther thing to to look for.

On a sader note it appears that there may have beeen a death

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Neurology/Autism/tb/1616
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Old 27th August 2005, 06:35 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by anor277
At the risk of being labelled a smart arse, it is also a "sexadentate" ligand. (PS by the way "tetra acetate" is perfectly correct!)
hexadentate.
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Old 27th August 2005, 09:51 AM   #34
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@Geni, sorry mate but I think I am correct in this instance. "Hexadentate" mixes a Greek numerical prefix (hexa) with a Latin root (dentatus) and is therefore a solecism. "Monodentate", "hexadentate", "polydentate" are still often seen in the chemical literature and are all egregiously wrong on this count. The correct corresponding Latin prefixes are "uni", "sexa", and "multi".

I would still like to know whether the EDTA is injected.
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Old 27th August 2005, 10:03 AM   #35
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Even if it was ingested orally, intorducing a pH 11-12 solution into your stomach is bound to be uncomfortable.
(Though I imagine the solutions are diluted/buffered, actually, as not to cause serious harm.)

It would be like loading up on antacids. It would cause some nausea.

Still, as I said before, if you're taking out more than you're bringing in of any of those cations, then you're going to see problems.

And I learned it as Hexadentate. Americans don't like using Sex- as a prefix. I guess we're all pervs who can't keep our minds out of the gutters. Or something.
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Old 27th August 2005, 10:09 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by anor277
@Geni, sorry mate but I think I am correct in this instance. "Hexadentate" mixes a Greek numerical prefix (hexa) with a Latin root (dentatus) and is therefore a solecism. "Monodentate", "hexadentate", "polydentate" are still often seen in the chemical literature and are all egregiously wrong on this count. The correct corresponding Latin prefixes are "uni", "sexa", and "multi".
No they now all follow the greek which is why if you dig out the newest text books you get didentate. {ref inorganic chemistry housecroft and sharp ISBN 0-582-31080-6. It also refures to EDTA as hexadentage (p 165)}

Quote:
I would still like to know whether the EDTA is injected. [/b]
sometimes
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Old 27th August 2005, 12:51 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by geni
No they now all follow the greek which is why if you dig out the newest text books you get didentate. {ref inorganic chemistry housecroft and sharp ISBN 0-582-31080-6. It also refures to EDTA as hexadentage (p 165)}



sometimes
I know this is a minor point (as is any issue in nomenclature) but BALL$. I have explained my reasoning, you cannot mix Greek and Latin roots indiscriminately whatever IUPAC or new text books say, they are not the authorities; the only exceptions to this rule are "tetravalent" or "mononuclear", terms now hallowed by usage. Well I use the term "quadrivalent" but not "uninuclear". (PS And EDTA has potentially 10 donors!)
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Old 27th August 2005, 01:11 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by sophia8
Anybody tries to tell you that the tiny bit of mercury (allegedly) in vaccines makes kid autistic, you tell them to google "Minamata", and find out what mercury poisoning actually does to kids. And then ask them why that part of Japan doesn't now have a whole generation of autists.
YES!! They all know about Minamata, but it does not matter. They think that what happened to their kids is the equivalent to Minamata and even the little Pink Girls, http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/2/201 . A bunch of them got together (a nurse, an accountant, a woman with a math degree, a chemical engineer) and wrote something that a LAWYER would call the "smoking gun" in a Journal called "Medical Hypothesis". See it discussed a bit here:
http://photoninthedarkness.blogspot....nostalgia.html

I dragged this thread up Wednesday because of the child who died during chelation. According to the news he was from the UK and his mother dragged him to the US for treatment of autism.

The funny thing is that in the UK the MMR vaccine is the "cause" of autism, not thimerosal (which is not really in UK vaccines either).

Where did she get the idea that chelation would cure her child? Was it perhaps one of the things the book reviewed by this UK doctor as "A damaging delusion"?:
http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/0000000CAB30.htm

Well, the other of the Evidence of Harm book is now trying to cover his bum:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-...he_b_6286.html
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Old 27th August 2005, 01:34 PM   #39
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And Orac is calling Kirby's bluff:
http://oracknows.blogspot.com/

Quote:
Worse, Kirby is now trying to blame the scientific community for Abubakar's death
Yes, it would be sooo ethical to do a study on chelation! We know it's useless, but let's knowingly take a bunch of kids and put them at risk of heart attack to appease Kirby. We already know the procedure is risky and WHY as well. Kirby is calling for studies on a subject we already know is a bad idea.

Quote:
We already know whether chelation can kill. We've known it since the 1940's and 1950's. Deaths have been rare since the 1960's, true, mainly due to better cardiac monitoring and more care with infusions...
So the idiot doc that killed the child wasn't monitoring things well enough. It's his fault the child died since He already knew the risks involved.

eh, edited for grammar...
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Old 27th August 2005, 01:56 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by anor277
I know this is a minor point (as is any issue in nomenclature) but BALL$. I have explained my reasoning, you cannot mix Greek and Latin roots indiscriminately whatever IUPAC or new text books say, they are not the authorities;
Since we are dealing with chemistry I think you will find that IUPAC are the authorities.

The only latin prefix that has ever been in common use for ligands is bi (and I suspect is partly becuase didentate sound bad)

Quote:
the only exceptions to this rule are "tetravalent" or "mononuclear", terms now hallowed by usage.
Hexadentate has been around for ages as well. I admit the didentate is pretty new (and not widely used).

eta for some reason google goes as far as to suggest
hexadentate as a correction for sexadentate
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