No metric system in the USA because of the religious right?

nyctc7

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This is my first post, so let me say that I am a fan of James Randi, and that I am an atheist.

On YouTube, starting at 9:00 from AAI 2010: James Randi - The Sleep of Reason [1/7] (I'm not allowed to post urls until I make 15 posts) Randi asserts that the reason we don't have the metric system in the USA is because of the "far-right religious element". He says he knows this from talking to various Washington insiders. Really?

Wouldn't the simpler answer be that 1. The tremendous cost it would take to convert, not just to government but to private business and 2. Most Americans, not just Randi's boogeyman the religious right, don't want or need to convert?
 
It's not just the USA. I was just in Canada and they still measure many things on the "English" system. I figure it's because that's what people want, and Canada isn't subject to EU regulation. I can't imagine that Canada is similarly under the throes of the religious right with regard to how to identify a steak on a menu.

Here's the video. His claim about his "very good friends in Washington" blaming religious lobbyists' being against the metric system due to "french atheists" having invented it is outlandish. I'd love to see evidence for that claim.

 
Well its certainly easy enough to find haters of the metric system using such feeble arguments. It's athiest, it's foreign, it's communist. Whether or not this includes washington lobbyists or it is the prevailing argument is another matter.

Viewing the clip and the laughs obtained from the line I doubt the claim was meant to be taken that seriosly.
 
Viewing the clip and the laughs obtained from the line I doubt the claim was meant to be taken that seriosly.
Randi has a fine and wonderful sense of humor, but he doesn't seem like he is joking here. He seems quite serious in his assertion. And my guess is that this Copenhagen crowd is laughing over the crazy dumb unsophisticated American masses, not because they think Randi is making up a cute funny story.
 
It's not just the USA. I was just in Canada and they still measure many things on the "English" system. I figure it's because that's what people want, and Canada isn't subject to EU regulation. I can't imagine that Canada is similarly under the throes of the religious right with regard to how to identify a steak on a menu.

Here's the video. His claim about his "very good friends in Washington" blaming religious lobbyists' being against the metric system due to "french atheists" having invented it is outlandish. I'd love to see evidence for that claim.


I don't have a hard time believing that there are some yahoos who rant against it because of some "French atheists" but really most of us are just too lazy to want to convert--myself included (even though I know the metric system better than the English system.)

Fordama
 
This seems a bit silly. The Metric system was adopted by the US in 1888. However, the Federal government doesn't have quite the power to make everyone change. All military hardware must be designed and built to metric standards, because the Federal military is the biggest consumer. Liquor has to be sold in metric quantities, because the Federal government, since the Whiskey Rebellion, has had the power to impose excise taxes on liquor directly. That leaves it up to the states, who mostly can't be arsed, or practical considerations, which have worked somewhere but not others. New delivery systems, such as the relatively recent 2 liter bottle for soda, tend to be metric, because why not? Older ones, like glass bottles for soft drinks, tend to be Avoirdupois, because there seems not to be compelling reason to change and retool.

With respect to that claim (assuming that it wasn't just silly, which is a big assumption), it's worth noting that if anything the Southern states, where religiosity is strongest, seem to have been the most progressive. Alabama, for instance, has kilometer markers as well as mile markers, or at least they did when I lived there. Florida tried putting KPH as well as MPH on the signs, but this was stopped, due to objections that drivers, especially the many tourists, would misread the numbers as MPH and speed.

Due to my scientific training, I'm quite happy with metric measurements and think more in terms of centimeters and meters than in inches, feet, and yards. For most people, though, it's just a number on a dial, and for how well they can estimate distances, a meter might as well be the same as a yard. I think that we make a terrible mistake when we teach schoolchildren about rods and chains and other Avoirdupois stuff that nobody uses and when we teach, for example, that there are 2.54 centimeters in an inch. Almost nobody will ever need to know a conversion to three significant figures, and if they do, they can always look it up.

In many ways, also, non-Metric units have specific advantages. In the Fahrenheit system, the range from 0 to 100 seems to be a good range for human survivability in, say, a business suit. I also have some problems with metric screw sizes. It has nothing to do with metric units per se; it just seems to me that the standards chosen result in too many threads for the width of the screw, resulting in the use of unnecessarily big screws. Those are pretty minor, though.
 
I would not be too surprised if it was the case.

I mean, come on. It is not only the EU which is officially on metric, it is the whole world + the US military+ US scientific + I think even NASA is doing into metric.

The only one putting brake on this is maybe the population (which would anyway follow after a few generation, be it 1,2 or 6 as people die out and get replaced) and my feeling is the politics.

There is no real sane reason to stay in imperial when you are the only country (is Liberia still on imperial ?) in the world to do it, and your own military and science system go away from it.
 
I recall that during the 70s we were going to switch to the metric system. That we did not do so I have always put down to inertia, nothing more.
 
Liquor has to be sold in metric quantities, because the Federal government, since the Whiskey Rebellion, has had the power to impose excise taxes on liquor directly.

The power to tax a liquid includes the power to demand that the liquid be sold in specific quantities? Is that true? There are federal taxes on gasoline, but that is not sold in liters.


ETA: beer and malt liquor is still sold in ounces: 12 ounce cans, 16 ounce cans, 40 ounce bottles.

_____________________________________
MORE ETA: my bad. the government does determine the size of alcohol containers sold in the U.S.

U.S. Code Title 27 part 5.47a Acceptable containers (other than cans) include:

1.75 liters

1.00 liter

750 milliliters

500 milliliters (Authorized for bottling until June 30, 1989)

375 milliliters

200 milliliters

100 milliliters

50 milliliters
 
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I don't have a hard time believing that there are some yahoos who rant against it because of some "French atheists" but really most of us are just too lazy to want to convert--myself included (even though I know the metric system better than the English system.)

Fordama

This is probably closer to the real reason. And to be honest, to most people there is no real advantage to converting. Seriously.

True there is a certain beauty to nice round numbers, and inter-relatedness of different measurements (energy, mass, length etc) but the fact that energy is related to the temperature by heating a gram of water... really, does that actually benefit anyone? Even scientists working with heating seldom need to convert energy which just happens to be heating pure water. And if they do they can use a conversion factor like they need to do with 99.99% of their calculations even with the metric system.

It failed as a top down command, with little or no benefit to the average person.
 
Liquor has to be sold in metric quantities, because the Federal government, since the Whiskey Rebellion, has had the power to impose excise taxes on liquor directly.

Hmmm... I have some old liquor bottles from the late 30s that are very clearly marked as quarts. I have one from the 40s that is clearly marked as a fifth (I guess they moved to lower quantity rather than raising price?).

I suspect the mandated sale of liquor by ML is much newer - probably an updated tax regulation from around the time we were supposed to switch over to metric.
 
Hmmm... I have some old liquor bottles from the late 30s that are very clearly marked as quarts. I have one from the 40s that is clearly marked as a fifth (I guess they moved to lower quantity rather than raising price?).

I suspect the mandated sale of liquor by ML is much newer - probably an updated tax regulation from around the time we were supposed to switch over to metric.

Yes. December 31, 1979. see ETA in post #9.
 
MORE ETA: my bad. the government does determine the size of alcohol containers sold in the U.S.

U.S. Code Title 27 part 5.47a Acceptable containers (other than cans) include:

1.75 liters

1.00 liter

750 milliliters

500 milliliters (Authorized for bottling until June 30, 1989)

375 milliliters

200 milliliters

100 milliliters

50 milliliters

Notice that reg was implemented in 1979 - when we were supposed to be switching over to metric everywhere. I'll bet imperial measurements were allowed before then.
http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/metric-fill-distilled-bottled-december-19670714

ETA - oops, just saw your post....
 
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Hmmm... I have some old liquor bottles from the late 30s that are very clearly marked as quarts. I have one from the 40s that is clearly marked as a fifth (I guess they moved to lower quantity rather than raising price?).
....

Actually the 'fifth' (of a gallon) or '4/5 quart' dates back to old taxes on quarts which were higher than on smaller quantities. The tax structure is long gone but the tradition remained.
 
Actually the 'fifth' (of a gallon) or '4/5 quart' dates back to old taxes on quarts which were higher than on smaller quantities. The tax structure is long gone but the tradition remained.

And I still send my wife to the liquor store for a "fifth of bourbon" and NOT "750 ML of bourbon"

Just doing my part to thwart those damn dirty French atheists!
 
This is probably closer to the real reason. And to be honest, to most people there is no real advantage to converting. Seriously.

True there is a certain beauty to nice round numbers, and inter-relatedness of different measurements (energy, mass, length etc) but the fact that energy is related to the temperature by heating a gram of water... really, does that actually benefit anyone? Even scientists working with heating seldom need to convert energy which just happens to be heating pure water. And if they do they can use a conversion factor like they need to do with 99.99% of their calculations even with the metric system.

It failed as a top down command, with little or no benefit to the average person.

Just wait until you have to use slugs instead of kilograms.
 
This is my first post, so let me say that I am a fan of James Randi, and that I am an atheist.

On YouTube, starting at 9:00 from AAI 2010: James Randi - The Sleep of Reason [1/7] (I'm not allowed to post urls until I make 15 posts) Randi asserts that the reason we don't have the metric system in the USA is because of the "far-right religious element". He says he knows this from talking to various Washington insiders. Really?

Hi, new guy. Welcome to the forum. :)

Short answer: How the hell would I know?

Longer answer: I can't speculate and won't. But I know Mr. Randi has an email address, and is approachable. You could go to the source, avoid rampant speculation, and ask him.

Wouldn't the simpler answer be that 1. The tremendous cost it would take to convert, not just to government but to private business and 2. Most Americans, not just Randi's boogeyman the religious right, don't want or need to convert?

"Randi's boogeymen." Well, that sounds serious. You might want to discuss that with him.

Back in the early '70s, the country was supposedly preparing to convert to metric. I was in 7th grade, and that year's science class was all about learning metric. We were told, numerous times, this was why we were learning it. Not because it was the measurement language of science, but because we were all going to have to start using it. No more gallons; now, it's liters. No more ounces; now, it's grams. No more inches; now, it's centimeters. It's easy! It's a system of tens. Everyone can count to ten and multiples of ten, right? And I admit: the classes were fun, and the new equipment was interesting.

And then...it quietly went away. I didn't know why. I was just a kid, and the ways of adults were still baffling to me. I was just glad I could forget all that metric crap. Soft drinks had been put into two-liter bottles, and they stayed that way. Gas was still sold by the gallon and it stayed that way. I've never really cared about why we didn't do it. I was just glad to stay with the system I knew, and was comfortable with.

I suspect that has a great deal to do with it.
 
And then...it quietly went away. I didn't know why. I was just a kid, and the ways of adults were still baffling to me. I was just glad I could forget all that metric crap. Soft drinks had been put into two-liter bottles, and they stayed that way. Gas was still sold by the gallon and it stayed that way. I've never really cared about why we didn't do it. I was just glad to stay with the system I knew, and was comfortable with.

I suspect that has a great deal to do with it.
I'm sure it does. The USA officially adopted* the metric system long ago - a hundred years or more ago. But, what it didn't do was mandate that everything be measured that way at all times. So, the average person simply kept on with what they knew, in spite of the educational efforts of our childhood. Miles for roads, acres for land, cups and spoons for cooking. Inertia can be a helluva thing.

But, because of this thread I did find a cool website from my local university:
The Dictionary of Units of Measurement

Did you know that a "Zak" is a Dutch unit of volume, now interpreted as a metric unit equal to the hectoliter? Or that a Decitex is a common metric unit of yarn density? I could waste a lot of time there...

ETA
* OK, "adopted" is a bit strong. "Legalized the use of" is more appropriate. In 1866.
 
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Hi, new guy. Welcome to the forum. :)

Longer answer: I can't speculate and won't. But I know Mr. Randi has an email address, and is approachable. You could go to the source, avoid rampant speculation, and ask him.
That's a fine idea. I thought it might be better first to get a feel for what others thought, and perhaps give me some answers before taking the step of writing Mr. Randi. Plus I'm far less intimidated posting on a message board than writing the man himself :)
 
There is no real sane reason to stay in imperial when you are the only country (is Liberia still on imperial ?) in the world to do it, and your own military and science system go away from it.

The US isn't Imperial. Imperial would be 20 ounces per pint, but the ounces are smaller, so an Imperial pint is a bit shy of 18 US fluid ounces.

Note that British pubs in the US sell beer by the Imperial pint. Which, as has been pointed out by many, is about right for a beer. A liter is too much, and a half liter doesn't quite satisfy.
 
Isn't the system in the US a hybridization of the metric and English systems anyway? Soda comes in 1, 2 or 3 liters. Medicine is measured in milligrams. Computer storage and electricity usage is measured with the metric system. I'm sure there are others that fall outside every day usage.
 
Isn't the system in the US a hybridization of the metric and English systems anyway? Soda comes in 1, 2 or 3 liters. Medicine is measured in milligrams. Computer storage and electricity usage is measured with the metric system. I'm sure there are others that fall outside every day usage.

Very true. Maybe the powers that be have been trying to verrrrrrry slowwwwwwly ease us into it, and by the time we've fully converted, we will hardly have noticed.

/shrug
 
In many ways, also, non-Metric units have specific advantages. In the Fahrenheit system, the range from 0 to 100 seems to be a good range for human survivability in, say, a business suit. I also have some problems with metric screw sizes. It has nothing to do with metric units per se; it just seems to me that the standards chosen result in too many threads for the width of the screw, resulting in the use of unnecessarily big screws. Those are pretty minor, though.
Also meter is IMO too large to be useful in everyday measurements. Things like doors, windows, tables, etc. are usually some single-digit in feet, but 0.x or 1.x in meters. When I was a kid growing up in a metric country, I wondered why decimeter is not used more than it is. It seems as convenient as foot, the way meter is not.
 
Also meter is IMO too large to be useful in everyday measurements. Things like doors, windows, tables, etc. are usually some single-digit in feet, but 0.x or 1.x in meters. When I was a kid growing up in a metric country, I wondered why decimeter is not used more than it is. It seems as convenient as foot, the way meter is not.

Actually, most of those things are identified by inches around here, so centimeter should work just as well.

Try buying an 8 foot tablecloth. You won't find one labelled that way. You'll find plenty of 96 inch ones, though.

Doors and windows are the same. If you walk into a Lowe's or Home Depot and go to the windows and doors section, they're all organized by size in inches. When I worked in construction in my teens/twenties I heard carpenters talk about rough framed door openings as "two eight" or "three oh", etc... It took me a while to understand they were saying 28 inches or 30 inches, etc...

Tho, I must confess, the last garage door I bought was sold as "9X8". So, I guess once you get over a certain threshold the measurements start coming in feet.
 
A request to Americans. If you insist in using English or imperial (or whatever the name is) measurements, please avoid giving length in feet when posting in this forum. Use yards, a yard is almost 1 meter long and very easy to visualize for those of us wo use the metric system.
 
A request to Americans. If you insist in using English or imperial (or whatever the name is) measurements, please avoid giving length in feet when posting in this forum. Use yards, a yard is almost 1 meter long and very easy to visualize for those of us wo use the metric system.

Well, I have to use google to figure out what the hell distances/temperatures/etc. you silly metric people are talking about, SO YOU SHOULD HAVE TO AS WELL!


Yes, I'm kidding. I hate our measurement system.
 
Yes, I'm kidding. I hate our measurement system.

Who doesn't? I do, it's a freaking mess! I think that there will be a time (like it was suggested earlier) that we will converting to it after slowly easing into it. That is if Obama doesn't ram it done our throats :rolleyes:
 
Also meter is IMO too large to be useful in everyday measurements. Things like doors, windows, tables, etc. are usually some single-digit in feet, but 0.x or 1.x in meters. When I was a kid growing up in a metric country, I wondered why decimeter is not used more than it is. It seems as convenient as foot, the way meter is not.

When talking about relativity, I use a unit called a bigfoot. It's about the length of one of my shoes, about 13 inches or a third of a meter. It's more metric than metric, being the distance that light travels in a vacuum for a nanosecond.
 
I think the biggest reason against it is just the economics of it. Take the auto industry, it's been converting to metric for some time now and it has been a rather long and painful process. But if the auto industry had converted over night it would have been real interesting with all those tool sets out there suddenly obsolete.

Then there is the construction industry where all building codes are still in US Customary Units and all building practices adhere to it.
 
No metric system in the USA because of the religious right?
If you want to blame this on the Christian Right, you are the one with issues.

A simpler explanation includes:

Habit
Chauvinism.

Maybe you need to get a grip on the term 'diversity' as it applies to everybody, not just your favorite ten people on the planet.
 
Isn't the system in the US a hybridization of the metric and English systems anyway? Soda comes in 1, 2 or 3 liters. Medicine is measured in milligrams. Computer storage and electricity usage is measured with the metric system. I'm sure there are others that fall outside every day usage.

Yep.

Oh, another thing I like. Blood chemicals are measured in the US in terms of weight per volume. For example, blood sugar is measured in mg/dl. In the rest of the world, they are measured in some fraction of moles per volume. This sucks, because the numbers attached to moles are based on the number of molecules, so you get a different measurement based on the size of the molecules. So if you want to measure cholesterol, there are different measurements for HDL and LDL, because the molecules are of different sizes. If it's a mixture of the two, you really don't know what a measurement is.

Then there's the International Unit on vitamins and drugs and such, and nobody really seems to know what that means, except that it has nothing to do with SI.
 
A request to Americans. If you insist in using English or imperial (or whatever the name is) measurements, please avoid giving length in feet when posting in this forum. Use yards, a yard is almost 1 meter long and very easy to visualize for those of us wo use the metric system.

I think I'll give lengths in thirty-sevenths of a chain just to annoy you.
 
Yep.

Oh, another thing I like. Blood chemicals are measured in the US in terms of weight per volume. For example, blood sugar is measured in mg/dl. In the rest of the world, they are measured in some fraction of moles per volume. This sucks, because the numbers attached to moles are based on the number of molecules, so you get a different measurement based on the size of the molecules. So if you want to measure cholesterol, there are different measurements for HDL and LDL, because the molecules are of different sizes. If it's a mixture of the two, you really don't know what a measurement is.

Then there's the International Unit on vitamins and drugs and such, and nobody really seems to know what that means, except that it has nothing to do with SI.

The unfunny things is : The imperial measurement system kills.

Due to difference of measurement (grain , ounce, whatnot) to mostly commercialized product indication (mg, moles, grams) there is from time to time unnecessary death in hospital, people giving grams of medicines instead of grains and vice versa, leading to underdoses or overdoses (on top of the usual error you can do).
 
I recently had the pleasure of speaking to some professors from various universities in the US and USAID officials who I was with concerning a development project in India. While talking about farm area, yield and all that, I realised that while most of those I was speaking to could visualise the measures in metric there were some who had to convert to imperial. One thing they all agreed on was that it was time America set aside their prejudice and switched to the metric system.

When I asked them why they didn't, one of the reasons given was heavy opposition from right wing policy makers who attributed a socialist agenda to the measuring system.

Incidentally, drug measures in the US follow the metric system right? The mg stands for milligrams?
 
A request to Americans. If you insist in using English or imperial (or whatever the name is) measurements, please avoid giving length in feet when posting in this forum. Use yards, a yard is almost 1 meter long and very easy to visualize for those of us wo use the metric system.


Um, no. I'm not going to single out one unit of measurement and alter it to suit one other person. I have to do conversions, and it doesn't confuse or bother me to do so. I don't expect you to do conversions for me.
 
Over here we switched over to metric about the time I was born, so I was lucky enough to grow up with the Metric system. Never even learned about imperial measurements in school. (Although, school rulers had cm on one side and inches on the other, and blank writing books came with conversion tables on the back. Often they still do.)

Older ones, like glass bottles for soft drinks, tend to be Avoirdupois, because there seems not to be compelling reason to change and retool.

I don't understand. How much retooling does it take to print 710 ML on a bottle instead of 24 FL OZ?

and when we teach, for example, that there are 2.54 centimeters in an inch. Almost nobody will ever need to know a conversion to three significant figures, and if they do, they can always look it up.

That's not merely rounded off to three significant digits. That's the exact conversion. Sure, you could round it off to 2.5, but if the exact conversion is only one extra digit, why round off? Is it demanding too much that the kids remember to put a 4 at the end?

In many ways, also, non-Metric units have specific advantages. In the Fahrenheit system, the range from 0 to 100 seems to be a good range for human survivability in, say, a business suit.

On the other hand, 0 to 30 in Celsius seems to be a good range for continued human functionality in, say, a business suit.

I also have some problems with metric screw sizes. It has nothing to do with metric units per se; it just seems to me that the standards chosen result in too many threads for the width of the screw, resulting in the use of unnecessarily big screws. Those are pretty minor, though.

Thread pitch and screw size are two different things. The coarse-pitch is better for screwing into wood, but the fine-pitch is better for screwing into sheet metal. It sounds like you've been using fine-pitch screws for wood.

True there is a certain beauty to nice round numbers, and inter-relatedness of different measurements (energy, mass, length etc) but the fact that energy is related to the temperature by heating a gram of water... really, does that actually benefit anyone?

It's not how they derive the unit that matters to the average person, it's how the units convert. For example, let's pick a random amount. Let's say 4.3...

How many fluid ounces in 4.3 gallons? Can you do it in your head? Probably not. (Answer: 29.77 in the US, 37.21 everywhere else.)

But how many milliliters in 4.3 liters? Easy, 4300.
How much room would 4.3 liters take up? 4300 cm3.
How much would 4.3 liters of water weigh? 4.3kg.

Makes conversion very easy. No calculator required.

Also meter is IMO too large to be useful in everyday measurements. Things like doors, windows, tables, etc. are usually some single-digit in feet, but 0.x or 1.x in meters. When I was a kid growing up in a metric country, I wondered why decimeter is not used more than it is. It seems as convenient as foot, the way meter is not.

A meter is only slightly longer than a yard, so you could make the same argument about yards being too big.

But for most people, cm is a convenient size. The only difference between a centimeter and a decimeter is an extra digit. May as well use cm. The extra digit isn't much of a hassle, and gives a more accurate size without needing a decimal point.

Not many people use plain meters to measure furniture, doors or windows, unless it's a couple of meters long. In the construction/building industry they go one better and give measurements in mm.

A request to Americans. If you insist in using English or imperial (or whatever the name is) measurements, please avoid giving length in feet when posting in this forum. Use yards, a yard is almost 1 meter long and very easy to visualize for those of us wo use the metric system.

I always picture a foot as being about the same length as a standard 30cm ruler.

But if the auto industry had converted over night it would have been real interesting with all those tool sets out there suddenly obsolete.

No, that doesn't make much sense. Unless they happen to send all non-metric cars to the scrap-heap overnight as well.
 
I've often wondered why the USA is imperial at all. The worlds a mixed up place.

USA kicked out the British and then became a republic. Good time to start using the French republics unit of measure I would have thought - get rid of that imperial stuff.

But on the other hand Canada, which the British hung onto for longer and is part of the British Commonwealth (Queen is still head of state there) went all French and metric. (I understand the French influence there as well of course).

So we have miles in USA and the UK and Kilometers in Canada. Go figure.

BTW, for a long time the UK held onto their imperial units, it was only really recently we went fully over and was all part and parcel of bringing down the economic boarders within the EU, so we could all trade in the same units. There were a few small corner shop owners who refused to change and went to court but overall it went quite smoothly. We kept the pound though (and miles oddly).

I remember when we went from gallons to liters at the Gasoline pumps and for a while it seemed like Gas got cheaper because the price per liter was obviously so much less than the price per gallon.
 
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I tend to blame every crazy idea on the religious right, because it saves time.

I'm an American living in Canada. Here, older people tend to use English measurements because they grew up with them. Younger ones are comfortable with metric, although most people still reference their weight in pounds.

Americans are less tolerant of change, or at least of the government imposing change, and nobody will change something so ingrained in them unless they are forced to do so. The American dollar coin, for example, didn't go over well because the bill is still offered. In Canada, they came out with the Loonie and eliminated the paper dollar, and later the two-dollar bill was replaced by a Twoonie. Soft drink manufacturers came out with litre and two-litre bottles in the U.S. thirty years ago, but consumers aren't comfortable with metric sizes. They won't change unless they have to, because they are dictated by consumer demand.

If the change was mandated, people would complain, but then it wouldn't be a big deal. I personally prefer metric now that I'm used to it, because it makes more sense. Although I understand people not wanting to make the switch.
 
In the UK we are supposedly Metric but have some imperial exemptions

Beer and Cider are still sold in Pints, halves and thirds of a pint. Distance is still miles and speed MPH.

Someone commented earlier in the thread that a litre is too much and a half litre not enough.

I suppose it depends how much you want to drink.
 

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