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Tags humanity , crimes

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Old 24th April 2004, 09:44 AM   #1
varwoche
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10 worst crimes against humanity by US

Focusing on egregious crimes of commission, in no particular order:

1) slavery
2) treatment of afro-americans post-slavery
3) treatment of native americans
4) replace elected government in Chile with brutal dictatorship
5) replace elected government in Guatemala with brutal dictatorship
6) support Iraq/Saddam in war with Iran, with goal of ongoing bloody standoff (mission accomplished)
7) financial support for Israel while Israel occupies, oppresses, and annexes Palestine
8) refusing to sign ban against land mines
9) arms dealer to the world
10) allow advertising by cigarette manufacturers

Omitted due to (arguable) honor of intention: Vietnam, supporting Islamists in Afghanistan, Iraq war, arming contras in Nicaragua.

Oversights or undersights?
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Old 24th April 2004, 09:50 AM   #2
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Are you trying to suggest the US invented slavery? I always thought we in the UK taught them that little practice.
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Old 24th April 2004, 10:06 AM   #3
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Your "slavery" category is shared by most countries on this earth.

Hardly a phenomenon unique to the US
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Old 24th April 2004, 10:12 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by yersinia29
Your "slavery" category is shared by most countries on this earth.

Hardly a phenomenon unique to the US
Originality wasn't amongst my criteria.
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Old 24th April 2004, 10:17 AM   #5
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So many things that a nation can do wrong, fortunately we are a young nation:

You hit most of the biggies,

Iran, support of the Shah.
Texas, the genocide of mexican Americans in this century.
Support for Sukharno in Indonesia.
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Old 24th April 2004, 11:05 AM   #6
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I'd add a-bomb and pollution somewhere in there.
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Old 24th April 2004, 11:25 AM   #7
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Re: 10 worst crimes against humanity by US

Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche

8) refusing to sign ban against land mines
That you include this as one of the top ten is a sign that either you're running out of actually important "crimes" against humanity, or you're just willing to swallow whatever damn anti-american rhetoric that passes your way.

http://www.denbeste.nu/entries/00001658.shtml

The land mine treaty does not ban land mines. Rather, it only bans anti-personel land mines. What will be the effect of this treaty, even if it is scrupulously obeyed (and what are the chances of that)? That people will just use larger mines instead. Wow, what an improvement for humanity. And this is supposed to be some great crime against humanity by the US?

Quote:

10) allow advertising by cigarette manufacturers
In other words, being a free and open society.

Cigarrettes are terrible, and there are certainly advantages to not allowing cigarette advertising, but it's still ultimately a personal choice to start smoking. Whatever happened to the idea of personal responsibility? Oh, right, not everyone believes in that anymore.
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Old 24th April 2004, 11:39 AM   #8
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This is a dumb, dumb, dumb thread.










































































Did I mention it was dumb? But the worst crimes commited against humanity EVER, were the writtings of the bible and the koran.
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Old 24th April 2004, 12:00 PM   #9
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While most of the things you mentioned are bad and some are indeed criminal, this list hardly makes us unique amongst all nations... it's a good thing to reflect upon one's nation's shortcomings. It's misleading to consider them in a vacuum, however. I contend that we're head and shoulders above the rest, despite our flaws.
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Old 24th April 2004, 12:14 PM   #10
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Classic troll thread.

Quote:
9) arms dealer to the world
Oh yes, when I see other countries on television, they've always got M-16s in their hands and they're firing them up into the air!
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Old 24th April 2004, 12:25 PM   #11
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Hmmm..lets see...

Slavery:
Found in every corner of history, in common and open practice today, condoned by UN and so called 'civilized' nations today over US objections, started on the North American continent by European nations, largest share of colonial era slaves used by Brazil et al......abolished by US many years ago.

Native Americans:
Arrived on North American continent in distant past, survivng trace of aboriginal people whom the NAs supplanted held hostage against scientific research, currently granted 'sovereign' status upheld as recently as last week by USSC (unlike Australian pre-European peoples, who were officially declared to be non-human (specificallly, non-existent) until mid 1990s, and are still officially declared to be sub-human, i.e. 'not capable of self governance' by OZ PM.


Treatment of Americans wearing Afros:
OK, OK you got us on that one...one of the prices of a free society is letting people choose to wear silly hair styles.
People of color in the US today are so sensitive on the matter, that they prefer to be called African Americans, or People of Color, or often, just 'people'...Sadly there is still an endless supply of patronizing closet-racists who seek to dehumanize and marginalize minorities by referring to them as 'Afro-Americans'.


'Refusal' to sign treaties with bogus names:
The UN has become quite adept at doublespeak naming of treaties and such.
By calling a conference which officially, albeit tacitly, condoned the forced sexual slavery industry in the Czech Republic and other parts of the world, they were able to accomplish the neat trick of supporting the slavers, and simultaneously condemning the US for its anti-slavery strance, with simple sophistry in choice of names...works pretty well for land mine treaties, ecological accords and other PR coverups.

Arms dealer to the world:
Only if by choosing the singular term we really mean "One of several countries which support arms manufacturers, and the ready marketing of their products to anyone who is looking for some weaponry".

Vietnam, Palestine, Chile, Iran, etc.
Yeah, got us there too...I have no idea why the US foolishly persists in acting in their own narrow, self perceived governmental interests when stuck with the remains of European colonial empire building, and military disasters. Lord knows that no other country has ever looked out for themselves, or sought to advance a nationalist agenda.

Cigarettes:
Well, we had to have something to spend our money on once Afros and the massive outlay for hair care products went the way of bell bottoms, steam driven cars....oh yeah, and slavery.



Paul
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Old 24th April 2004, 12:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I'd add a-bomb and pollution somewhere in there.
In the non-specific, it is my view that creating weapons capable of wiping out mankind is amongst the worst crimes; I have a hard time arguing for the bomb.

In the specific, USSR was going to develop the bomb. If you'll pardon me for fast-forwarding, doesn't this logically conclude with the pacifist argument, that it's better for humanity in the long run to allow oneself to be conquered by Hitler or USSR or whoever rather than compete to survive in a brutal world?

I tried (somewhat) to list things that are black and white -- very subjective of course.

I agree wholeheartedly about pollution. I left it off because I couldn't the indictment to a bullet and I was lazy. Here's how I'd word it:

US took insufficient action to reduce fossil fuel consumption despite knowing that world supplies are rapidly diminishing, despite knowing that burning fossil fuel is harmful to the environment and to human health, despite vastly disproportionate usage, and despite financially supporting despotic, theocratic regimes.
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Old 24th April 2004, 12:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs
Classic troll thread.

Indeed. One can only imagine the screaming to be heard if someone were to start a thread listing the top ten crimes of China or Saudi Arabia.

There are many way of looking at the shortcomings of people, cultures and nations.

One is with concern. Recognizing a shortcoming is the first step in enacting change. In doing this, one should be specific as to what the shortcoming is, how it came to be, and what changes could be made to address it. One should also be honest as to if it is really a shortcoming.

Another is cautionary. Recognizing a shortcoming in order that it should not be repeated. In this, it is also important to understand how it came to be, and what, if anything, needs to be done to prevent it from happening again.

And then there is vilification. Identifying shortcomings with nothing more in mind than to create an emotional reaction. This seems to be that sort of list.

Varwoche, Vancouver B.C. is only a short drive north of the Puget Sound. It's a lovely city, very clean with nice people and a high standard of living. If you moved there and became a citizen, you wouldn't have to taint yourself by association with the evil United States.
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Old 24th April 2004, 12:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche
In the specific, USSR was going to develop the bomb. If you'll pardon me for fast-forwarding, doesn't this logically conclude with the pacifist argument, that it's better for humanity in the long run to allow oneself to be conquered by Hitler or USSR or whoever rather than compete to survive in a brutal world?
For starters, no. I recognize that I have an obligation to the next generation, and that means insuring that they will not be governed by brutal dictators. While I recognize that the world we pass on will not be perfect, there are some tasks that are valuable in the doing, even if you never see their completion.

Secondly, you present a false dichotomy. It is not an either/or choice between capitulation to dictators and annihilation. Both Hitler and the USSR were defeated. While there are certainly other ideologies that are equally bad, those are challenges to be met by ours and succeeding generations.
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Old 24th April 2004, 12:54 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche

In the specific, USSR was going to develop the bomb. If you'll pardon me for fast-forwarding, doesn't this logically conclude with the pacifist argument, that it's better for humanity in the long run to allow oneself to be conquered by Hitler or USSR or whoever rather than compete to survive in a brutal world?
Would you let someone rape you instead of fighting back (possibly killing the person) and dealing with the consequences? Would you let someone rape your daughter instead of fighting back and dealing with the consequences?
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Old 24th April 2004, 01:22 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by crimresearch
Slavery: Found in every corner of history, in common and open practice today, condoned by UN and so called 'civilized' nations today over US objections, started on the North American continent by European nations, largest share of colonial era slaves used by Brazil et al......abolished by US many years ago.
Are you arguing that because slavery was/is common that you don't consider it a crime against humanity?

Please list some civilized nations that condone slavery; I don't know of any.

True, slavery was abolished years ago. I thought it was obvious that the list covered US history, not just current events. Thank you for taking the time to point out, by way of example, that obtuse and/or less-educated readers might require a more thorough explanation.

Quote:
Native Americans [incomprehensible diatribe snipped]
The fact that native populations in other countries may have been treated worse than in US is irrelevent.

Quote:
Sadly there is still an endless supply of patronizing closet-racists who seek to dehumanize and marginalize minorities by referring to them as 'Afro-Americans'
This is where your and my dialog concludes. If you want to debate the merits fine, I'm not interested in trading insults.
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Old 24th April 2004, 01:41 PM   #17
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"I tried (somewhat) to list things that are black and white -- very subjective of course. "

Ok, but even so, all we are left with is that the *worst* thing that the US has inflicted on humanity is to act just like other nations in similar positions. Russia built the bomb, we were a little quicker...Britain dumped heroin on the Chinese, we subsidized tobacco, we turned the world into an automobile dependent mess, the Japanese turned it into a TV dependent one, we freed the slaves, and raped the land, the Czechs rebuilt the land, and continue to rape the slaves, and so forth.

Hardly a damning indictment, unless there is a basis for assuming that the US deserves special condemnation for acting as others have, and do.

I have been given rationalizations that the US should be held to a much higher and harsher standard than other countires because of a brief period of economic prosperity which developed a noblesse oblige to act more idealistically than the rest of the human race...

Sorry, I just don't buy that....
Because we couldn't exhaust the natural resources of the European colonies here any faster than the Europeans could, and because the European's greed gave their own colonists no choice but to revolt, and because the timing of external ideologies led to the American revolutionaries adopting a quasi-egalitarian experiment as the antithesis of European royalty, and because geography dictated that when European petty rivalries erupted into world wars we were left with our infrastructure unbombed, it is now our lot to be blamed for European messes in their other former colonies, to be condemend for acting in a self-interested manner, AND to be held responsible for all the world's ills?

Pardon me while I chew on that one.


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Old 24th April 2004, 02:20 PM   #18
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"Are you arguing that because slavery was/is common that you don't consider it a crime against humanity? "

No I am pointing out that YOU don't rate the modern face of slavery as worthy of being considered a crime, as based on your refusal to include it in your list of 'crimes against humanity' and because of your challenge that it is condoned by civilized countries, because *you* 'don't know of any'.
Czech Republic not civilized enough for you? Signatories to the UN commision paper that refused to allow it on the floor not in your reality?

Taking a head in the sand approach to the widespread, obvious, and well documented problem of modern slavery, while refusing to focus on anything but the narrow slice of European slavery that took place in the former colonies for less than a century, is enabling and complicit.

The same thing would apply to the tactic of refusing to address the indigenous people's issue by labelling references as incomprehensible. I suspect that others had no trouble taking the reference to Kennewick Man.
And continuing to label the US a criminal for something it currently doesn't authorize, while excusing worse actions elsewhere as beside the point, is fallacious reasoning at best, and as above, complicit in current abuse by acting as a red herring at worst.

As far as proclaiming abuse, and running away when called on your choice to denigrate minorities by using the outdated and insensitive term 'Afro-American', take your guilty conscience at having your behavior corrected somewhere else, the only way you will find sympathy here is if someone points you to a dictionary. (Ask me if you need to know what words it lies between)

So far, your entire premise is built upon what *you* didn't care to know, didn't care to comprehend, or care to find important enough to include. Stacked deck, fish in a barrel, etc....Unimpressive.

Paul
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Old 24th April 2004, 02:21 PM   #19
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Re: Re: 10 worst crimes against humanity by US

Quote:
Originally posted by Ziggurat
[Cigarrettes are terrible, and there are certainly advantages to not allowing cigarette advertising, but it's still ultimately a personal choice to start smoking. Whatever happened to the idea of personal responsibility?
I do not condone making tobacco illegal. (In fact I support de-criminlalization of most drugs.) I consider the *advertising* criminal for the following reasons combined:

1) It has long been known that nicotene is highly addictive, that smoking kills more people than any other drug, and that many smokers start in their teens
2) US/state laws define certain drugs as legal and others as not, creating an implication that legal drugs are safer than illegal drugs
3) Tobacco is one of the few drugs that is pure downside (no medical value)

Why should it be permissible to *promote* a drug like this, to induce its use?

Ziggurat , to test your intellectual consistency, are you opposed to the restrictions already placed on tobacco and liquor advertising?
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Old 24th April 2004, 02:38 PM   #20
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Re: Re: Re: 10 worst crimes against humanity by US

Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche
...snip...

Why should it be permissible to *promote* a drug like this, to induce its use?

Ziggurat , to test your intellectual consistency, are you opposed to the restrictions already placed on tobacco and liquor advertising?
Promotion does not equate with forcing people to use it.

If the promotion is honest I don't see the problem.

The specific problem with tobacco was that for nearly 30 years the promotion was based on a known falsehood.
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Old 24th April 2004, 02:41 PM   #21
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Re: 10 worst crimes against humanity by US

7) financial support for Israel while Israel occupies, oppresses, and annexes Palestine

That's NOTHING! If you think the US is committing a war crime here, just think of the israelis! They deserved everything they get, I tell ya!
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Old 24th April 2004, 03:07 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
Indeed. One can only imagine the screaming to be heard if someone were to start a thread listing the top ten crimes of China or Saudi Arabia.
Not from me, to the contrary. Both countries are high on my sh** list.

Quote:
There are many way of looking at the shortcomings of people, cultures and nations. One is with concern. Recognizing a shortcoming is the first step in enacting change ... And then there is vilification. Identifying shortcomings with nothing more in mind than to create an emotional reaction. This seems to be that sort of list.
True, I am critical of America. I am also sick to death of the mindless recitation that it's the greatest country in the world, seemingly without critical thinking.

I want the US to be a better place, and more humble on the world stage.

As to the brevity of my statements, I am expanding as I go here, sorry if it came off cynical, and look forward to thoughtfully discussing any of the particuars with you.

Quote:
Varwoche, Vancouver B.C. is only a short drive north of the Puget Sound. It's a lovely city, very clean with nice people and a high standard of living. If you moved there and became a citizen, you wouldn't have to taint yourself by association with the evil United States.
Mycroft, that sounds a lot like "America, love it or leave it". I'm dissappointed you would go there because you seem like a sincere, intelligent person. I'll spare you the trite retort.
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Old 24th April 2004, 03:08 PM   #23
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Re: Re: 10 worst crimes against humanity by US

Quote:
Originally posted by Ziggurat

The land mine treaty does not ban land mines. Rather, it only bans anti-personel land mines. What will be the effect of this treaty, even if it is scrupulously obeyed (and what are the chances of that)? That people will just use larger mines instead. Wow, what an improvement for humanity. And this is supposed to be some great crime against humanity by the US?
I think this thread is pointlessly provocative, but I must say I'm not sure of your logic here. Larger mines are naturally more expensive, and are presumably harder to transport and conceal. I don't think they'll ever be seen as more attractive than small anti-personnel mines to many of the countries that like to deploy them. Besides, small mines will often maim, rather than kill. I thought this quality was considered more effective for the purpose of demoralizing the enemy and also wasting his resources.
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Old 24th April 2004, 03:11 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tony


Would you let someone rape you instead of fighting back (possibly killing the person) and dealing with the consequences? Would you let someone rape your daughter instead of fighting back and dealing with the consequences?
No and no. I think I may have failed to make my point clear.

Add: Actually, first no = yes if she were hot.
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Old 24th April 2004, 03:13 PM   #25
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Re: Re: Re: Re: 10 worst crimes against humanity by US

Quote:
Originally posted by Darat


Promotion does not equate with forcing people to use it.

If the promotion is honest I don't see the problem.

The specific problem with tobacco was that for nearly 30 years the promotion was based on a known falsehood.
Darat, to test your intellectual consistency, are you opposed to the restrictions already placed on tobacco and liquor advertising?
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Old 24th April 2004, 03:14 PM   #26
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No wait! Refusal to go along with Kyoto should be in there somewhere. If we're limited to only ten, it should probably replace number 1, 2 or 3. I guesss you could bump those down and just drop the existing number 10 but I personally don't think any of the first three really belong anyway.
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Old 24th April 2004, 03:20 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs
Classic troll thread.

Oh yes, when I see other countries on television, they've always got M-16s in their hands and they're firing them up into the air!
You suffer from what appears to be a common delusion -- that someone else committing the same crime makes it not a crime.
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Old 24th April 2004, 03:20 PM   #28
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 10 worst crimes against humanity by US

Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche

Darat, to test your intellectual consistency, are you opposed to the restrictions already placed on tobacco and liquor advertising?
Umm, added to quibble but I don't think there are actually an 'restrictions' on tobacco or liquor advertising. I think it's more like a strong-armed 'agreement'.
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Old 24th April 2004, 03:22 PM   #29
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varwoche,

You might be missing DB's point. I suppose he means they're typically AK-47s or some variant.

Edit: Ok perhaps you weren't. Sorry.
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Old 24th April 2004, 03:26 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche

You suffer from what appears to be a common delusion -- that someone else committing the same crime makes it not a crime.
You suffer from what appears to be a common delusion -- that 'crime' is something which an inanimate object or thing, such as a 'nation' can commit.
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Old 24th April 2004, 03:30 PM   #31
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Re: Re: 10 worst crimes against humanity by US

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
That's NOTHING! If you think the US is committing a war crime here, just think of the israelis! They deserved everything they get, I tell ya!
The confusion that statement caused me should not go unreported. I know there is sense in it but I just can't figure it.
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Old 24th April 2004, 03:33 PM   #32
varwoche
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Quote:
Originally posted by crimresearch
Hardly a damning indictment, unless there is a basis for assuming that the US deserves special condemnation for acting as others have, and do.
A country benefits when its faults and mistakes are part of the public dialog. Defintely, I am more critical of the US than any country *because it is my country*, not because it's the worst in the world or anywhere near it.
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Old 24th April 2004, 03:43 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche

A country benefits when its faults and mistakes are part of the public dialog.
How so?
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Old 24th April 2004, 03:50 PM   #34
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 10 worst crimes against humanity by US

Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche

Darat, to test your intellectual consistency, are you opposed to the restrictions already placed on tobacco and liquor advertising?
My "intellectual consistency" needs to be tested? Anyway before I could answer that I would need to know which restrictions you are talking about and I canít read your mind.

(Edited to add the rest of my comments.)

And let me just go over my previous post.

Promotion does not equate with forcing people to use it.

Do you disagree with this statement? Itís an assertion yes, but I find it hard to belive you want me to support it.

If the promotion is honest I don't see the problem.

To extend this what I am therefore saying is that I cannot promote alcohol with (for example) the concept that it will improve your social life, it will make you better in bed, it will improve your concentration, it will make you live longer all I can promote it with is whatever is known to be truthful.

The specific problem with tobacco was that for nearly 30 years the promotion was based on a known falsehood.

They used to promote tobacco with ideas that it was good for you which the tobacco companies knew without a shadow of a doubt was wrong.
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Old 24th April 2004, 04:02 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche
True, I am critical of America. I am also sick to death of the mindless recitation that it's the greatest country in the world, seemingly without critical thinking.
And so you address it with an even more mindless recitation of its ďcrimes against humanity.Ē Iím sorry, but I canít agree that purposeful idiocy on one side of the spectrum is a cure for perceived idiocy on the other.

Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche
I want the US to be a better place, and more humble on the world stage.
Yes, we must not be so arrogant, clinging to our concepts of soul-less rationalism, capitalism, democracy, and human rights as though their alternatives were not equally valid if requiring a different point of view to see it.

Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche
Mycroft, that sounds a lot like "America, love it or leave it". I'm dissappointed you would go there because you seem like a sincere, intelligent person. I'll spare you the trite retort.
Which is exactly how I meant it.

I personally think that self-criticism and introspection is an important part of patriotism. Because we are proud of what we are, we should also seek to improve what we are, and that requires identification of areas for improvement. This doesnít take away from the accomplishments of other peoples, not should it be hampered by recognizing what we have accomplished and should be proud of.

But you take that self-criticism to an absurd extreme. When your criticisms of your country extend to seeing its history only as a succession of crimes against humanity, then youíve lost any pretext of rational impartiality that would be required to address problems that are real.

Canada is nice. Have you ever seen Vancouver B.C. at dusk?
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Old 24th April 2004, 04:22 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by crimresearch
Slavery:
Found in every corner of history, in common and open practice today, condoned by UN and so called 'civilized' nations today over US objections, started on the North American continent by European nations, largest share of colonial era slaves used by Brazil et al......abolished by US many years ago.
Not to mention that slavery in North America started longe before there was a US and was abolished by the US in the context of a Civil War against former English colonied that were trying to secede from the US and who were allied with England against the US.
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Old 24th April 2004, 04:24 PM   #37
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Re: 10 worst crimes against humanity by US

Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche
10 worst crimes against humanity by US

Focusing on egregious crimes of commission, in no particular order:

1) slavery
2) treatment of afro-americans post-slavery
3) treatment of native americans
4) replace elected government in Chile with brutal dictatorship
5) replace elected government in Guatemala with brutal dictatorship
6) support Iraq/Saddam in war with Iran, with goal of ongoing bloody standoff (mission accomplished)
7) financial support for Israel while Israel occupies, oppresses, and annexes Palestine
8) refusing to sign ban against land mines
9) arms dealer to the world
10) allow advertising by cigarette manufacturers

Omitted due to (arguable) honor of intention: Vietnam, supporting Islamists in Afghanistan, Iraq war, arming contras in Nicaragua.

Oversights or undersights?
varwoche, are you saying that the U.S. committed the ten worst crimes against humanity or are you listing the ten worst of the crimes the U.S. committed against humanity?
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Old 24th April 2004, 04:29 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by epepke


Not to mention that slavery in North America started longe before there was a US and was abolished by the US in the context of a Civil War against former English colonied that were trying to secede from the US and who were allied with England against the US.
so 'The North' were not English colonies at one point? I guess they didnt fight a war of secesion?

Personally, I guess that 'The South' were just trying to do the same thing as Washington did a few years earlier, but while Washington is a Hero, 'The South' is a bunch of criminals for daring to secede?
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Old 24th April 2004, 04:30 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by crimresearch
[BI am pointing out that YOU don't rate the modern face of slavery as worthy of being considered a crime, as based on your refusal to include it in your list of 'crimes against humanity'
May I call your attention to the "US" in the subject? If there is slavery in the US modern-day, it is without my knowledge and I hope you will enlighten.

On the other hand, I welcome you to start a new thread that expands scope to misdeeds of other nations. I can assure you that my objection to modern slavery will be unequivocal.

Quote:
As far as proclaiming abuse, and running away when called on your choice to denigrate minorities by using the outdated and insensitive term 'Afro-American'...
Staying on top of the politically correct term du jour is not a high priority to me, though I am glad to refer to any group by whatever label they wish. (I've heard objections to "African American" fyi, maybe we both need an update?)

I suppose if I came across someone using the term"colored person", I could assume racism, or I could give benefit of doubt and assume the person is from a different generation or otherwise unaware. I hope that I would look to substance versus semantics before tossing an incendiary term like racist. But that's just me.
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Old 24th April 2004, 04:36 PM   #40
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varwoche, the "arguable" honour of intention of supporting the contras in Nicaragua???
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