Wouldn't It Have Been Better To Have Started WWII With Our Own Little Surprise???

On November 25 1941 Admiral Yamamoto of the Japanese Navy sent the following two dispatches to the commanders of the ships constituing the storied FIRST AIR FLEET, the compliment of Japanese velssels that would head for Hawaiian waters on the very next day, Novemmber 26 1941 , and upon arrival there, attack the American North Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor. Admiral Yamamoto;

First dispatch: "THE TASK FORCE, KEEPING ITS MOVEMENT STRICTLY SECRET, SHALL LEAVE HITOKAPPU BAY ON THE MORNING OF 26TH NOVEMBER AND ADVANCE TO 42° N. X 170° E. ON THE AFTERNOON OF 3 DECEMBER AND SPEEDILY COMPLETE REFUELING."

Second dispatch: "THE TASK FORCE, KEEPING ITS MOVEMENT STRICTLY SECRET AND MAINTAINING CLOSE GUARD AGAINST SUBMARINES AND AIRCRAFT, SHALL ADVANCE INTO HAWAIIAN WATERS, AND UPON THE VERY OPENING OF HOSTILITIES SHALL ATTACK THE MAIN FORCE OF THE UNITED STATES FLEET IN HAWAII AND DEAL IT A MORTAL BLOW. THE FIRST AIR RAID IS PLANNED FOR THE DAWN OF X-DAY. EXACT DATE TO BE GIVEN BY LATER ORDER. UPON COMPLETION OF THE AIR RAID, THE TASK FORCE, KEEPING CLOSE COORDINATION AND GUARDING AGAINST THE ENEMY’S COUNTERATTACK, SHALL SPEEDILY LEAVE THE ENEMY WATERS AND THEN RETURN TO JAPAN. SHOULD THE NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE UNITED STATES PROVE SUCCESSFUL, THE TASK FORCE SHALL HOLD ITSELF IN READINESS FORTHWITH TO RETURN AND REASSEMBLE."

These and other Japanese TOP SECRET messages, dispatches of both naval/military and diplomatic types, were read in real time by American intelligence personal with the contents of course being forwarded to Roosevelt and his military advisors. All of the dispatches, both of military and diplomatic type are now available to the public, their having been released under the Freedom of Information Act.

As the contents of the famous messages were never forwarded to the commander at Pearl Harbor, Husband E. Kimmel, one may conclude the attack at Pearl Harbor was allowed to occur, a conveniently horrific act of war perpetrated by the Japanese, so as to provide an excuse for our entering hostilities against all axis powers.

This need not have happened. A reasonable option would have been to have allowed the Japanese to launch their planes and then to have destroyed all of their ships and with them any planes that would have managed to limp back after facing our own little surprise in the Pacific.

Or it could have been the result of bureaucratic bumbling and inter service rivalries. I suggest you read At Dawn We Slept by Gordon W.Pane, et al.

This CT is an old chestnut, BTW.

This a rather obscure interest of yours. I doubt you'll get much serious response here. There is a whole Wiki responding to this claim and its details make it clear that no one here is going to be much into this. There must be more appropriate forums for this, where you'll find people who think this is an important topic.

May be an old Chestnut, but Yamamot's words look pretty plain to me.

SUSpilot said:

Or it could have been the result of bureaucratic bumbling and inter service rivalries. I suggest you read At Dawn We Slept by Gordon W.Pane, et al.

This CT is an old chestnut, BTW.

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May be an "old chestnut", but Yamamoto's words look pretty plain to me. "Look out below!"

Scott Sommers said:

This a rather obscure interest of yours. I doubt you'll get much serious response here. There is a whole Wiki responding to this claim and its details make it clear that no one here is going to be much into this. There must be more appropriate forums for this, where you'll find people who think this is an important topic.

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Interestingly this conspiracy theory was also advocated by the late Bill Kaysing. Another clue to P1000's real identity?

Whatever, I'll pursue it.

Scott Sommers said:

This a rather obscure interest of yours. I doubt you'll get much serious response here. There is a whole Wiki responding to this claim and its details make it clear that no one here is going to be much into this. There must be more appropriate forums for this, where you'll find people who think this is an important topic.

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Whatever, I'll pursue it.

mercatormac said:

Interestingly this conspiracy theory was also advocated by the late Bill Kaysing. Another clue to P1000's real identity?

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You mean that Patrick could be a dead person posting here? If he could prove it, that would certainly be a major coup for his credibility.

I like that, sort of........

mercatormac said:

Interestingly this conspiracy theory was also advocated by the late Bill Kaysing. Another clue to P1000's real identity?

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I like that, sort of.......

Kaysing is interesting, a pioneer of sorts. I bought his book mercatormac for I cannot remember how much on Amazon, the self published book of Kaysing's you know. That guy is/was the WORST WRITER on the planet. Too funny.

But still, it is kind of flattering to be channeling the great man on some level if you think I might be.

It's not really a conspiracy mercatormac

mercatormac said:

Interestingly this conspiracy theory was also advocated by the late Bill Kaysing. Another clue to P1000's real identity?

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It's not really a conspiracy mercatormac. Read the cables. There were "no secrets" in a sense. Kimmel is the only guy that did not know, poor sap. Sucks that the Arizona sailors died. I still say we should have nailed them right there and then.

It's not accurate to say the US was reading the codes in real time. The messages had to be decrypted and then translated both of which took time. Real time would be reading them as soon as the messages came out. The recipients didn't even read them in real time, the cypher clerks had to do the same thing.

Craig4 said:

It's not accurate to say the US was reading the codes in real time. The messages had to be decrypted and then translated both of which took time. Real time would be reading them as soon as the messages came out. The recipients didn't even read them in real time, the cypher clerks had to do the same thing.

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I don't have an opinion on this question - I just note that this message was sent on 25 November. Perhaps Gawdzilla will turn up to give us the benefit of his knowledge on what happened to this intercept (if it was intercepted?)

I seem to recall that the US Navy sent most of its aircraft carriers away from Pearl Harbour on the eve of the attack.

Figure of speech, the turnaround time details are available

Craig4 said:

It's not accurate to say the US was reading the codes in real time. The messages had to be decrypted and then translated both of which took time. Real time would be reading them as soon as the messages came out. The recipients didn't even read them in real time, the cypher clerks had to do the same thing.

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Figure of speech, the turnaround time details are available, I believe. Assuming that to be the case, I shall provide them.

A very famous station intercepted the message little grey rabbit

little grey rabbit said:

I don't have an opinion on this question - I just note that this message was sent on 25 November. Perhaps Gawdzilla will turn up to give us the benefit of his knowledge on what happened to this intercept (if it was intercepted?)

I seem to recall that the US Navy sent most of its aircraft carriers away from Pearl Harbour on the eve of the attack.

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A very famous station intercepted the message little grey rabbit, STATION H. I shall write more about that.

Yes, you are correct about the carriers.

Debunked CT is debunked.

Not sure what you mean by debunked, how are the Yamamoto cables "debunked"?

Greedo said:

Debunked CT is debunked.

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Not sure what you mean by debunked, how are the Yamamoto 11/25/1941 cables "debunked"?

This is pretty hard to debunk.

Greedo said:

Debunked CT is debunked.

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This is pretty hard to debunk. From Robert Stinnett's book. So much for Japanese radio silence. We heard every word too.

" "In fact, Navy radio monitoring stations at Corregidor, Guam, Hawaii, and Dutch Harbor, Alaska, intercepted the transmissions. Japanese warships and the commanding admirals of the thirty-one-ship Hawaii force broke radio silence and were addressed by Tokyo radio during the twenty-five days from about November 12 through the December 7 “surprise attack.” One intercepted message on November 18 defied all security precautions and spelled out H-I-T-O-K-A-P-P-U-B-A-Y."

Stinnett, Robert (1999-12-14). Day of Deceit (ebook Locations 1057-1061). Free Press.

little grey rabbit said:

I seem to recall that the US Navy sent most of its aircraft carriers away from Pearl Harbour on the eve of the attack.

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Not true...Enterprise had been sent to Wake island to deliver fighters and was on its way back, The Lexington was on the way to Midway to deliver 25 scout bombers & Saratoga was en route to the mainland for maintenance work that the Pearl Harbor facilities could not carry out. There was no last minute send off of the carriers on the eve of the attack, they had been carrying out orders issued well in advance of the attack

Also, an interesting bit of history, if you look at the Japanese government's records, the meeting called to write the actual declaration of war didn't convene until 12:44 pm, Dec. 7th, Pearl Harbor time.

Patrick1000 said:

On November 25 1941 Admiral Yamamoto of the Japanese Navy sent the following two dispatches to the commanders of the ships constituing the storied FIRST AIR FLEET, the compliment of Japanese velssels that would head for Hawaiian waters on the very next day, Novemmber 26 1941 , and upon arrival there, attack the American North Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor. Admiral Yamamoto;

First dispatch: "THE TASK FORCE, KEEPING ITS MOVEMENT STRICTLY SECRET, SHALL LEAVE HITOKAPPU BAY ON THE MORNING OF 26TH NOVEMBER AND ADVANCE TO 42° N. X 170° E. ON THE AFTERNOON OF 3 DECEMBER AND SPEEDILY COMPLETE REFUELING."

Second dispatch: "THE TASK FORCE, KEEPING ITS MOVEMENT STRICTLY SECRET AND MAINTAINING CLOSE GUARD AGAINST SUBMARINES AND AIRCRAFT, SHALL ADVANCE INTO HAWAIIAN WATERS, AND UPON THE VERY OPENING OF HOSTILITIES SHALL ATTACK THE MAIN FORCE OF THE UNITED STATES FLEET IN HAWAII AND DEAL IT A MORTAL BLOW. THE FIRST AIR RAID IS PLANNED FOR THE DAWN OF X-DAY. EXACT DATE TO BE GIVEN BY LATER ORDER. UPON COMPLETION OF THE AIR RAID, THE TASK FORCE, KEEPING CLOSE COORDINATION AND GUARDING AGAINST THE ENEMY’S COUNTERATTACK, SHALL SPEEDILY LEAVE THE ENEMY WATERS AND THEN RETURN TO JAPAN. SHOULD THE NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE UNITED STATES PROVE SUCCESSFUL, THE TASK FORCE SHALL HOLD ITSELF IN READINESS FORTHWITH TO RETURN AND REASSEMBLE."

These and other Japanese TOP SECRET messages, dispatches of both naval/military and diplomatic types, were read in real time by American intelligence personal with the contents of course being forwarded to Roosevelt and his military advisors. All of the dispatches, both of military and diplomatic type are now available to the public, their having been released under the Freedom of Information Act.

As the contents of the famous messages were never forwarded to the commander at Pearl Harbor, Husband E. Kimmel, one may conclude the attack at Pearl Harbor was allowed to occur, a conveniently horrific act of war perpetrated by the Japanese, so as to provide an excuse for our entering hostilities against all axis powers.

This need not have happened. A reasonable option would have been to have allowed the Japanese to launch their planes and then to have destroyed all of their ships and with them any planes that would have managed to limp back after facing our own little surprise in the Pacific.

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Why don't you start with the hearings, Patrick and then work your way forward.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/congress/

Read all of them, then get back to us in a couple of weeks, when you're done.


If you want the shortcut, here's the Cliff's Notes version:

Stinnett is an idiot and quite possibly a liar. The vaunted "intercepts" above were false transmissions. The Japanese were sending hundreds of them throughout the autumn of that year. They were triangulated back to naval bases, NOT SHIPS, that the Japnese had in the area.

There were actual Ministry radio intercepts from many months earlier that did not get translated and which would've given us an inkling (sort of like the Osama will strike at the USA with planes inkling) but nothing as specific as the second of these messages.

For the first message, why not get out a map while you're reading the Congressional hearing records. 42° N. X 170°E Have you checked this out on the map and how much more likely it would've been interpreted as an attack on the Aleutians, which was one of the prime bits of disinformation the Japanese had been putting on the airwaves for months? Pearl Harbor is about 18.5N 155 W. That position is no where near Pearl Harbor.


((Paging Gawdzilla! Paging Gawdzilla! You might want to check out the Pearl Harbor links in the stickied threads at the top of the CT sub-forum. Gawdzilla is, I believe, a practicing historian and he specializes in debunking this sort of crud. I haven't seen him around for a bit, though.))

ETA: Gawdzilla's around - he just hangs out in classier neighborhoods than I do.

Historian Robert Stinnett would seem to have a different version of events Ravenwood

Ravenwood said:

Not true...Enterprise had been sent to Wake island to deliver fighters and was on its way back, The Lexington was on the way to Midway to deliver 25 scout bombers & Saratoga was en route to the mainland for maintenance work that the Pearl Harbor facilities could not carry out. There was no last minute send off of the carriers on the eve of the attack, they had been carrying out orders issued well in advance of the attack

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Historian Robert Stinnett would seem to have a different version of events Ravenwood.

Lest anyone think Kimmel(Pearl Harbor Commander) was anybody's fool, he had his suspicions and was working with what was available to see if anything really might have been up. He was actually looking for the Japanese carrier force despite not being privy to the intercepted cables and despite the Washington Naval brass doing their best to limit his assets. This is way beyond eye opening, and unbelievably sad too.

In the passage below, "he" refers to the Pearl Harbor Commanding officer, Admiral Kimmel. Stark was The US Navy's Chief of Naval Operations. Kimmel's intuition told him something was up, and the boys in D.C. not only tied his hands by telling him to send away his best boats, but they deprived him of the cable information explicitly describing the imminent attack. SITTING DUCKS!, is a too kind and very much a gross understatement. Pearl Harbor historian Robert Stinnett on the nauseatingly difficult to read subject. Breaks one's heart, you'd wished they'd only have sent the Arizona away with the Enterprise;


"Despite the early cancellation of Exercise 191, Kimmel wasn’t quite ready to give up. Though the naval brass in Washington forced him to pull the warships from the North Pacific, he approved two new missions intended to discover a Japanese carrier force: on November 24, shortly after 191 was canceled, Vice Admiral William “Bull” Halsey, Kimmel’s carrier chief, issued operation plans for a 25-warship task group to guard against an “enemy air and submarine” attack on Pearl Harbor. The force was built around the carrier USS Enterprise and the battleship USS Arizona. Halsey’s directive said the operation would last seven days, from November 28 to December 5. His proposal was similar to Exercise 191. If a true enemy was located he planned to issue the same EASY CAST EASY signal established for 191. But Halsey’s plan was never put into effect. During the late afternoon of Thursday, November 26, Admiral Stark directed Admiral Kimmel to use aircraft carriers and deliver Army pursuitplanes to Wake and Midway islands. Early the next morning Kimmel called a conference with General Short, Halsey, and other Army and Navy officers. After hearing the Washington plan, they decided it was faulty. Army pursuit pilots were not trained for carrier operations, could not land on a carrier since the planes had no tail hooks, and were unable to navigate over widespread areas of the ocean. Oahu-based Marine Corps pilots, who had the training and whose planes were equipped for carrier operations, were substituted.Halsey agreed to transport twelve Marine fighter planes to Wake Island and canceled his “look for the enemy” operation. He left early on the twenty-eighth aboard the carrier USS Enterprise, with the fighters on the flight deck, escorted by eleven of the fleet’s newest warships. The Arizona was left behind at Pearl. A second delivery of eighteen fighters to Midway was delayed a week. On December 5, the carrier USS Lexington, accompanied by eight modern warships, departed Pearl Harbor and, according to her deck log, headed for an unnamed “assigned area.” The fighter planes were never delivered. On December 7, as his force neared Midway and prepared to launch the aircraft for a flight to the island, the Task Group commander learned of the Pearl Harbor attack shortly after 8:00 A.M. and cancelled the flight. On orders from Washington, Kimmel left his oldest vessels inside Pearl Harbor and sent twenty-one modern warships, including his two aircraft carriers, west toward Wake and Midway. Those were strange orders, for they dispatched American forces directly into the path of the oncoming Japanese fleet of thirty submarines. The last-minute circumstances that moved the warships out of Pearl Harbor were discussed during the 1945–46 Congressional inquiry. Members wondered whether the sorties were genuine efforts to reinforce Wake Island and Midway or merely ploys to move all the modern warships from the Pearl Harbor anchorages prior to the attack so they would not be hit by the First Air Fleet. Senator Alben Barkley, the chairman, questioned Admiral Stark about the sortie of the two carrier forces: “It is not clear in my mind whether they were sent.” Stark replied, “Yes sir; they were sent. The dates were set by Admiral Kimmel. We gave no specific dates.” Stark stumbled over the facts: he set the date, not Kimmel. According to Navy records, Stark set the date on November 26: IT WILL BE NECESSARY FOR YOU TO TRANSPORT THESE PLANES AND GROUNDS CREW FROM OAHU TO THESE STATIONS ON AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER....With the departure of the Lexington and Enterprise groups, the warships remaining in Pearl Harbor were mostly 27-year-old relics of World War I. While Washington pulled Kimmel’s fleet around the Pacific on invisible strings, the admiral still searched for the Japanese carriers that Rochefort had spotted in the Kuriles. Kimmel asked for Rochefort’s cryptographic help in a terse order on November 24: “Find The Carriers.” According to Edwin Layton, Kimmel’s intelligence chief, the admiral wondered if other Pacific monitoring stations had also obtained bearings of the Japanese......"


Historian Robert Stinnett, DAY OF DECEIT (2000)

Stark is a big fat liar, ain't he??????

All one can say to this is, "WOW! HOW SAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Patrick1000 said:

As the contents of the famous messages were never forwarded to the commander at Pearl Harbor, Husband E. Kimmel, one may conclude the attack at Pearl Harbor was allowed to occur, a conveniently horrific act of war perpetrated by the Japanese, so as to provide an excuse for our entering hostilities against all axis powers.

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Oh dear that is quite wrong. The US didn't declare war on Germany and Italy until after those two nations declared war on the US on 11th December. And there was nothing inevitable about those declarations, the provisions of the Axis treaty did not specify that the signatories had to support each others offensive actions, the Japanese did not declare war on the USSR after the German invasion.
Hitler's reasons for declaring war are complex but looming large was the fact the US was already fighting an undeclared war in the Atlantic, with US ships attackign U-Boats and the U-boats firing back, with the most serious incident being the loss of the USS Reuben James

These and other Japanese TOP SECRET messages, dispatches of both naval/military and diplomatic types, were read in real time by American intelligence personal with the contents of course being forwarded to Roosevelt and his military advisors. All of the dispatches, both of military and diplomatic type are now available to the public, their having been released under the Freedom of Information Act.

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Those "dispatches" were not intercepted by the US. They have, however, been available to the public since 1946, no FOIA needed. The Congressional Investigation into the Pearl Harbor Attack.

I'll get to Stinnett later, it's too close to breakfast to read his stuff.

Ravenwood said:

Also, an interesting bit of history, if you look at the Japanese government's records, the meeting called to write the actual declaration of war didn't convene until 12:44 pm, Dec. 7th, Pearl Harbor time.

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You guys don't need me.

Interesting Gawdzilla!

Gawdzilla said:

Those "dispatches" were not intercepted by the US. They have, however, been available to the public since 1946, no FOIA needed. The Congressional Investigation into the Pearl Harbor Attack.

I'll get to Stinnett later, it's too close to breakfast to read his stuff.

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Interesting Gawdzilla! In all honesty, would love to see yor stuff on this. If Sinnett can be debunked, it quite literally would make my day, week, month, year. This is what he writes early on in the now rather famous, perhaps in your mind, infamous, book of his;

"As I have discovered in the course of seventeen years of archival research and personal interviews with US Navy cryptographers, the answer to Roosevelt’s dilemma is found in an extraordinary number of documents whose release I have been able to obtain through Freedom of Information Act requests. These papers outline deliberate steps that were planned and implemented to elicit the overt action that catapulted America into the war, and devastated military forces at Pearl Harbor and other Pacific bases."

Stinnett, Robert (1999-12-14). Day of Deceit

What about this Gawzilla, any merit to it, a bit of an interview?

Gawdzilla said:

You guys don't need me.

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What about this Gawzilla, any merit to it, a bit of an interview? From the Independent Institute;

"Your book claims that in 1941 Japan had a spy residing in the Japanese consulate in Honolulu.

Stinnett: Japan secreted this spy—he was a Japanese naval officer—in Honolulu. He arrived there in March 1941 under an assumed name, and he was attached to the Japanese consulate there. But when the FBI checked on him they found out he was not listed in the Japanese foreign registry, so they were suspicious immediately. They put a tail on him. And then the spy started filing messages to Japan that we were intercepting. This was in a diplomatic code now. And so the FBI continued to tail him, and so did Naval intelligence.

Naval intelligence, the FBI, and Roosevelt knew this man was spying on the fleet in Pearl Harbor, and they let the espionage go on. The policy of FDR’s government then was to look the other way and let Japan prepare itself for attacking us?

Stinnett: That’s right. That is correct. He was providing a timetable for the attack.

The spy was even sending bomb plots of Pearl Harbor?

Stinnett: Yes. From March to August he was giving a census of the US Pacific fleet. Then starting in August he started preparing bomb plots of Pearl Harbor, where our ships were anchored and so forth.

And Roosevelt even saw those bomb plots, right?

Stinnett: Yes, that is correct.

You claim that twice during the week of December 1 to 6 the spy indicated that Pearl Harbor would be attacked. According to a Japanese commander, the message on December 2 was: “No changes observed by afternoon of 2 December. So far they do not seem to have been alerted.” And on the morning of December 6 the message was: “There are no barrage balloons up and there is an opportunity left for a surprise attack against these places.” These messages were intercepted by the Navy, right? Did Roosevelt know about these messages?

Stinnett: They were intercepted. That is correct. They were sent by RCA communications. And Roosevelt had sent David Sarnoff, who was head of RCA, to Honolulu so that this would facilitate getting these messages even faster. Though we were also intercepting them off the airways, anyway. And on December 2 and on December 6 the spy indicated that Pearl was going to be the target. And the December 2 message was intercepted, decoded, and translated prior to December 5. The December 6 message...there’s really no proof that it was...it was intercepted, but there’s all sorts of cover stories on whether or not that reached the President. But he received other information that it was going to happen the next day, anyway.

You saw the records of those intercepts yourself?

Stinnett: Yes. I have those.

And all these other messages that the Navy was constantly intercepting showed exactly where the Japanese ships were, that they were preparing for war, and that they were heading straight for Hawaii. Right?

Stinnett: That’s right. Our radio direction finders located the Japanese warships.

You say Roosevelt regularly received copies of these intercepts. How were they delivered to him?

Stinnett: By Commander McCollum routing the information to him. They were prepared in monograph form. They called it monograph....it was sent to the President through Commander McCollum who dispatched it through the naval aide to the
President."


Full interview here;

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408

Patrick, Stinnett got the "intercepts" from Homer Wallin's book on Pearl Harbor salvage. Wallin got those "intercepts" from the Congressional Hearings. The Hearings got the "intercepts" from the Japanese, not from our records. They were never intercepted. Stinnett knew this. He lied about the provenance. He lies about a lot of things in that book. For instance, the Japanese never broadcast, so we could find them by RDF.

More later, I'm going to lead a tour at the Endangered Wolf Center now. The company of wolves is preferable to that of CTers.

Craig4 said:

It's not accurate to say the US was reading the codes in real time. The messages had to be decrypted and then translated both of which took time. Real time would be reading them as soon as the messages came out. The recipients didn't even read them in real time, the cypher clerks had to do the same thing.

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And we weren't reading JN-25B anyway. An all-out effort at busting JN resulted, in June 1942, of our getting one word in ten correct.

Patrick1000 said:

Interesting Gawdzilla! In all honesty, would love to see yor stuff on this. If Sinnett can be debunked, it quite literally would make my day, week, month, year. This is what he writes early on in the now rather famous, perhaps in your mind, infamous, book of his;

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http://www.artbarninc.org/REY/Stinnett.htm?s=Robert+Stinnett
"A number of early reviewers of Stinnett’s book, perhaps impressed by the almost grotesque number of footnotes totaling 595 in number (some quite lengthy, many not on point, often repetitive), verbosely stretched over 65 pages, and accepting them carte blanche as valid, praised the book. But it is obvious none of those reviewers did more than take a cursory look at Stinnett’s research and blithely assumed Stinnett’s research had to be accurate, thus providing the foundation for his conclusions."

"It is absolutely mind boggling to realize how many readers simply accepted without question Stinnett’s page after page of explanations, minutia, and footnotes as being accurate, when in fact that same detailed research, I am sure much to the embarrassment to Stinnett (except for the money he has made off his deceitful book), clearly proves just the opposite of Stinnett’s long time personal vendetta against President Roosevelt of somehow trying to prove FDR was directly responsible for the Japanese attack. And for almost nine years, Stinnett got away with it. Finally, the house of cards Stinnett spent seventeen years creating and then spreading as gospel through his deceitful book has come crumbling down around him. And it’s about time."

Gawdzilla said:

Patrick, Stinnett got the "intercepts" from Homer Wallin's book on Pearl Harbor salvage. Wallin got those "intercepts" from the Congressional Hearings. The Hearings got the "intercepts" from the Japanese, not from our records. They were never intercepted. Stinnett knew this. He lied about the provenance. He lies about a lot of things in that book. For instance, the Japanese never broadcast, so we could find them by RDF.

More later, I'm going to lead a tour at the Endangered Wolf Center now. The company of wolves is preferable to that of CTers.

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Patrick. Read the bolded part, again. Former Imperial Navy sailors on those vessels have confirmed and double-confirmed that there was no radio contact. None. They DID NOT HAVE TRANSMITTERS. They were removed prior to departure from base. Further, their radio operators were left ashore also to contribute to all the garbage the Japanese were filling the air waves with.

The Japanese made two feints - one at the Aleutians, which was a complete bluff, and one at the Philippines which was merely executed right after Pearl.

mercatormac said:

http://www.artbarninc.org/REY/Stinnett.htm?s=Robert+Stinnett
"A number of early reviewers of Stinnett’s book, perhaps impressed by the almost grotesque number of footnotes totaling 595 in number (some quite lengthy, many not on point, often repetitive), verbosely stretched over 65 pages, and accepting them carte blanche as valid, praised the book. But it is obvious none of those reviewers did more than take a cursory look at Stinnett’s research and blithely assumed Stinnett’s research had to be accurate, thus providing the foundation for his conclusions."

"It is absolutely mind boggling to realize how many readers simply accepted without question Stinnett’s page after page of explanations, minutia, and footnotes as being accurate, when in fact that same detailed research, I am sure much to the embarrassment to Stinnett (except for the money he has made off his deceitful book), clearly proves just the opposite of Stinnett’s long time personal vendetta against President Roosevelt of somehow trying to prove FDR was directly responsible for the Japanese attack. And for almost nine years, Stinnett got away with it. Finally, the house of cards Stinnett spent seventeen years creating and then spreading as gospel through his deceitful book has come crumbling down around him. And it’s about time."

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Ah, great find - couldn't locate that earlier.

Patrick - you say you want to research this topic? Please read the rebuttal by the Admiral. And this is a kinder version. (Kahn's review from the NY Review of Books was even tougher, but that's a subscription site, and even I'm not willing to fork over the five bucks for the full version of an 11 year old review.)

It is absolutely mind boggling to realize how many readers simply accepted without question Stinnett’s page after page of explanations, minutia, and footnotes as being accurate, when in fact that same detailed research, I am sure much to the embarrassment to Stinnett (except for the money he has made off his deceitful book), clearly proves just the opposite of Stinnett’s long time personal vendetta against President Roosevelt of somehow trying to prove FDR was directly responsible for the Japanese attack.

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It's not mind boggling to me that Patrick falls for it; he obviously has never met a conspiracy he didn't like.

Patrick1000 said:

May be an "old chestnut", but Yamamoto's words look pretty plain to me.

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Simply because it is "plain to you" is not a credible argument.


But you've been told that, before...it doesn't seem to have left any impression on you...

Diagnosis...learning curve, a flat line...

One thing that confuses me about the Pearl Harbor conspiracies. The motive, as I understand it, is to get America into the war and the outrage was designed to bring American public opinion around to supporting being at war.

So if America did know the attacks were coming at Pearl Harbor and elsewhere in the Pacific, and they laid carefully planned ambushes that routed the Japanese forces, does the conspiracy propose that the two countries wouldn't be at war after these battles?

Wouldn't It Have Been Better To Have Started WWII With Our Own Little Surprise???

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So you would advocate sneak attacking a nation we were not at war with?

The word "Ignorant" just isn't sufficient to describe you.

Has he given up on Apollo?

Patrick1000 --

your innocent and naive suggestion demonstrates an utter lack of comprehension of both US internal politics and geopolitics of the 20th century.

You know what's great, though? Because I have you on "deep ignore," as soon as I submit this post all evidence of your existence -- your posts and any thread you start -- will vanish from my personal universe.

Bye bye!!

Thanks for the heads up Gawdzilla!!!

Gawdzilla said:

Patrick, Stinnett got the "intercepts" from Homer Wallin's book on Pearl Harbor salvage. Wallin got those "intercepts" from the Congressional Hearings. The Hearings got the "intercepts" from the Japanese, not from our records. They were never intercepted. Stinnett knew this. He lied about the provenance. He lies about a lot of things in that book. For instance, the Japanese never broadcast, so we could find them by RDF.

More later, I'm going to lead a tour at the Endangered Wolf Center now. The company of wolves is preferable to that of CTers.

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Thanks for the heads up Gawdzilla!!! I'll check it out and get back to you. Hope you prove to be correct! Would be great.

Patrick1000 said:

Figure of speech, the turnaround time details are available, I believe. Assuming that to be the case, I shall provide them.

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No, it's not a figure of speech. The amount of time it took the intended recipient was not inconsiderable and they didn't need to translate. You'll note that the Japanese didn't decode the famous "14 Part Message" until well after the attack on Pearl Harbor for the reason they could not translate the messages quickly. Now, stack that delay up with a unit sorting through lots of intercepts and needing translation.

Patrick1000 said:

Thanks for the heads up Gawdzilla!!! I'll check it out and get back to you. Hope you prove to be correct! Would be great.

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You don't have to "hope". Gawdzilla is correct. I've read both Prange's book (completed posthumously by Donald Goldstein and Katherine Dillon) and Stinnett's. Prange's research covers everything that has been mentioned here and far more. If he has a bias, it seems to be in favor of Admiral Kimmel.

Patrick1000 said:

Historian Robert Stinnett would seem to have a different version of events Ravenwood

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Historian Robert Stinnett, DAY OF DECEIT (2000)

Stark is a big fat liar, ain't he??????

All one can say to this is, "WOW! HOW SAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

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What is sad, is how you take Stinnett as Gospel when you can read the actual accounts & orders (which of course, don't agree with your pre-conceived rubbish)
Here is exhibit 50 from the congressional investigation of the attack on Pearl Harbor:
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths/x33-050.html