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Old 31st December 2012, 07:56 PM   #361
Wolrab
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Wow didn't realize this thread had been resurrected. I went back and skimmed through some of the posts from the point which is was resurrected, and I didn't find any factual information that substantiates any of the miracles or otherwise miraculous events that occur in the Bible. Did I perhaps miss something? If so, could someone please quote or present the evidence? I would love to read it.
It all boils down to using the bible to prove the bible.
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Old 31st December 2012, 08:19 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
It all boils down to using the bible to prove the bible.
I see. That's what I thought. Kinda like saying "Well they found an empty tomb, so that means he was resurrected!" and then going on to quote the Bible.
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Old 31st December 2012, 08:27 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by OCaptain View Post
So says Dan Brown.
No, so says the Jews.
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Old 31st December 2012, 08:30 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Back then in that area woman were second class citizens who couldn't even testify in court. They didn't even count women as part of crowds.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in Roman times wouldn't this claim be provably wrong?
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Old 31st December 2012, 11:56 PM   #365
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The found ossuary of the high priest, Caiaphus, who organized the plot to kill Jesus is some hard evidence for the truth of the bible.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44347890.../#.UOKDdXctG_I

A high priest would be well known in the area and amongst his surviving relatives and young followers for a long time. It would seriously hurt the credibility of the bible to give him such a vital role if it wasn't true.

Last edited by DOC; 31st December 2012 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 1st January 2013, 12:10 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The found ossuary of the high priest, Caiaphus, who organized the plot to kill Jesus is some hard evidence for the truth of the bible.


No, it's (possibly) evidence for the existence of someone named Caiaphas.

It's evidence for the rest of your fairytale in the same way that the existence of King's Cross Station is evidence for the Hogwarts Express.


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
A high priest would be well known in the area and amongst his surviving relatives and young followers for a long time.


A major London railway station would be well known for even longer, especially one that still exists in this, the information age.

Still no stories about that magical train though.


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
It would seriously hurt the credibility of the bible to give him such a vital role if it wasn't true.


Including the names of real people who may have been alive at the time that the alleged events in the story took place actually tends to enhance its credibility.

What's damaging to its credibility is including nonsense like a zombie apocalypse, earthquakes that nobody noticed, an eclipse that couldn't possibly have occurred, angels, a resurrected rabbi that can be in multiple places at the same time, etcetera.
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Old 1st January 2013, 12:13 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in Roman times wouldn't this claim be provably wrong?


No correction needed. Your observation is the reason that DOC, when pressed to back up his assertion, provided a reference to Hebrew customs in the Old Testament.
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Old 1st January 2013, 02:06 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
It all boils down to using the bible to prove the bible.
I've mentioned the fact that there were 9 non-biblical writers who make reference to occurrences in the NT, including Christ. Also I mentioned archaeological evidence, and logical evidence.

And the 9 separate writers who wrote the New Testament (one who has been called a 1st rate historian by Sir William M. Ramsay) never heard of a thing called the Bible, it didn't exist at the time of they wrote their works.
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Old 1st January 2013, 02:10 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
No correction needed. Your observation is the reason that DOC, when pressed to back up his assertion, provided a reference to Hebrew customs in the Old Testament.
So I assume you believe 1400 year old Jewish customs regarding woman immediately stopped once the Romans gained control?
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Old 1st January 2013, 02:39 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
It all boils down to using the bible to prove the bible.


I've mentioned the fact that there were 9 non-biblical writers who make reference to occurrences in the NT, including Christ.


No, you didn't. The claim you actually made was this:
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So I assume you believe Jesus is a myth even though we have 31 Christian and 9 non-Christian historical written sources for his life (total of 40) compared to 9 non-Christian and 1 Christian source (total of 10) for the life of Tiberius Caesar (the emperor during the life of Jesus).

So, notwithstanding your backpedalling on the issue, rather than just mentioning these sources, how about posting them as you've been asked to do?



Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Also I mentioned archaeological evidence, and logical evidence.


You mention all manner of nonsense. How about posting the archæological evidence, at least?

I won't ask you to post the logical evidence since I'm more than fully aware that you lack the means to identify such a thing even if it did exist.



Originally Posted by DOC View Post
And the 9 separate writers who wrote the New Testament (one who has been called a 1st rate historian by Sir William M. Ramsay) never heard of a thing called the Bible, it didn't exist at the time of they wrote their works.


And there it is!

The first non sequitur of the new year.

Only 4,782 to go and you'll beat last year's record.

It's not the writers who are guilty, as Wolrab says, of "using the bible to prove the bible".

It's you.
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Old 1st January 2013, 02:54 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
No correction needed. Your observation is the reason that DOC, when pressed to back up his assertion, provided a reference to Hebrew customs in the Old Testament.


So I assume you believe 1400 year old Jewish customs regarding woman immediately stopped once the Romans gained control?


To what should be the disgrace of many, they haven't stopped to this day, however, the claim I was specifically addressing was the one you made that women weren't allowed to testify in court, and this isn't a matter of custom, but of law.

And at that time and in that place, Roman Law was trumps, not Hebrew scripture.

As I've already asked you once, who conducted the alleged trial of the alleged Jesus in your fairytale, the Roman Procurator or the Sanhedrin?

What you've been asked to provide, DOC, is evidence for your claims and an explanation of their significance. As usual, all we've received is more of your world-famous argumentum ad so codswallop.

Quelle surprise.
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Old 1st January 2013, 03:02 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I've mentioned the fact that there were 9 non-biblical writers who make reference to occurrences in the NT, including Christ.


So I assume you believe this Christ fellow is a non-biblical writer?
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Old 1st January 2013, 07:02 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
I see. That's what I thought. Kinda like saying "Well they found an empty tomb, so that means he was resurrected!" and then going on to quote the Bible.
Did you really expect to find scientifically unassailable documentation for miracles in the Bible?

If so, you haven't been following these threads for very long.

If not, you didn't create this thread in a spirit of intellectual honesty.
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Old 1st January 2013, 07:30 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I've mentioned the fact that there were 9 non-biblical writers who make reference to occurrences in the NT, including Christ. Also I mentioned archaeological evidence, and logical evidence.

And the 9 separate writers who wrote the New Testament (one who has been called a 1st rate historian by Sir William M. Ramsay) never heard of a thing called the Bible, it didn't exist at the time of they wrote their works.
There's nothing like a reference to Rhoda-the-slave-girl Ramsey to pave the way to thinking about New Year's Day lunch plans.

And I rather thought I saw a reference to our old friends, the 9 non-biblical writers!
I'm looking forward to seeing how DOC manages to show they're relevant to the thread's discussion.
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Old 1st January 2013, 09:15 AM   #375
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Guys guys you won't believe this but it turns out the Mississippi river exists! Huckleberry Finn did indeed do everything that book says he did!
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Old 1st January 2013, 09:23 AM   #376
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Including the stuff with Ratty, Mole and Badger?

Or were they later additions?
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Old 1st January 2013, 09:28 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
Guys guys you won't believe this but it turns out the Mississippi river exists! Huckleberry Finn did indeed do everything that book says he did!

As Huck's creator said:
Quote:
The world has corrected the Bible. The church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession- and take the credit of the correction.
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Old 1st January 2013, 11:48 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by OCaptain View Post
Did you really expect to find scientifically unassailable documentation for miracles in the Bible?

If so, you haven't been following these threads for very long.

If not, you didn't create this thread in a spirit of intellectual honesty.
So, asking for evidence of events that occurred in the Bible is not in the spirit of intellectual honesty? You are in the wrongggg place. Perhaps this place would be better for you:
http://www.christianforums.net/

I don't think anyone asks them for evidence of their beliefs, they just blindly believe anything and everything in the Bible. Go give it a try. BTW, this is what I requested in the OP:
Quote:
I believe I have made a thread similar to this one for the existence of Jesus, but is there any evidence outside of the Bible that substantiates any events that supposedly occurred in the Bible? Whether they were outlandish events or small ones, what kind of outside sources are there to back up the Bible's validity in any way as a factual source?
Where in the OP did I ever state anything about miracles? I specifically said events.
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Old 1st January 2013, 12:21 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
One more (double) question, DOC: Do you accept that the the three Synoptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew and Luke) shared common material, originally written in one gospel, then copied by the other two, or do you assert that all three were written independently. If you do assert they were written independently, what do you see as the motive of those who argue that one gospel was the main source for the other two?
DOC: Since you have posted since I asked this double question, perhaps you could answer it.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 09:12 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by OCaptain View Post
There are some of the writings of Paul that admonish this very point (that he's speaking for himself, not God). Is this a new idea to you?
No, it's not. But it apparently is to some who attempt to claim the Bible is historically accurate. If parts of it are inaccurate, then none of it can be taken as accurate without confirmation of some sort.

It might be best if you follow the thread and understand what arguments have been made, so you can understand the rebuttals to them. You've made similar mistakes with the arguments others are making.

Last edited by Hellbound; 2nd January 2013 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 10:12 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The found ossuary of the high priest, Caiaphus, who organized the plot to kill Jesus is some hard evidence for the truth of the bible.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44347890.../#.UOKDdXctG_I

A high priest would be well known in the area and amongst his surviving relatives and young followers for a long time. It would seriously hurt the credibility of the bible to give him such a vital role if it wasn't true.
This also can mean that the Jesus story is at least grounded in some sort of reality. I do think that it is at least based on some real events.

On the other hand this is also saying this proves that Jesus and all the supernatural stuff is real like pointing to a Sherman Tank in a WWII museum and saying that is proof that Capt America existed. A fictional character who was placed in a real historical event.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 01:55 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I've mentioned the fact that there were 9 non-biblical writers who make reference to occurrences in the NT, including Christ. Also I mentioned archaeological evidence, and logical evidence. . . .(snip) . . .
As Akhenaten has pointed out, we have asked you, repeatedly, to name these nine authors. Also, I have twice asked you the question below:

One more (double) question, DOC: Do you accept that the the three Synoptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew and Luke) shared common material, originally written in one gospel, then copied by the other two, or do you assert that all three were written independently. If you do assert they were written independently, what do you see as the motive of those who argue that one gospel was the main source for the other two?

So, DOC (Disciple of Christ), why don't you make it a resolution for the new year of 2013 to answer these questions.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 02:01 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
There's nothing like a reference to Rhoda-the-slave-girl Ramsey to pave the way to thinking about New Year's Day lunch plans.

And I rather thought I saw a reference to our old friends, the 9 non-biblical writers!
I'm looking forward to seeing how DOC manages to show they're relevant to the thread's discussion.
Are these the nine non-biblical writers who seem to have non-names and also seem not to have existed?
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Old 2nd January 2013, 02:07 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The found ossuary of the high priest, Caiaphus, who organized the plot to kill Jesus is some hard evidence for the truth of the bible.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44347890.../#.UOKDdXctG_I

A high priest would be well known in the area and amongst his surviving relatives and young followers for a long time. It would seriously hurt the credibility of the bible to give him such a vital role if it wasn't true.
Originally Posted by Warrior1461 View Post
This also can mean that the Jesus story is at least grounded in some sort of reality. I do think that it is at least based on some real events.

On the other hand this is also saying this proves that Jesus and all the supernatural stuff is real like pointing to a Sherman Tank in a WWII museum and saying that is proof that Capt America existed. A fictional character who was placed in a real historical event.
Saying something is some hard evidence for the truth of the bible is not saying this proves the bible.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 02:23 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Saying something is some hard evidence for the truth of the bible is not saying this proves the bible.
What?
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Old 2nd January 2013, 02:35 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
What?
In essence, evidence is not proof.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 02:54 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by OCaptain View Post
In essence, evidence is not proof.
right but DOC makes implications (after all this is a thread about evidence for anything that substantiates the Bible).

I have evidence that the Mississippi River exists. That doesn't mean anything as far as whether Huck Finn traveled down it however.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 02:59 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by OCaptain View Post
In essence, evidence is not proof.
On the other hand it seems most skeptics don't believe your statement when it comes to abiogenesis?
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Old 2nd January 2013, 03:09 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I've mentioned the fact that there were 9 non-biblical writers who make reference to occurrences in the NT, including Christ. Also I mentioned archaeological evidence, and logical evidence.

And the 9 separate writers who wrote the New Testament (one who has been called a 1st rate historian by Sir William M. Ramsay) never heard of a thing called the Bible, it didn't exist at the time of they wrote their works.
Some have asked me who were the 9 non-biblical writers who make reference to occurrences in the NT, including Christ.

Here are 11 non-biblical sources that directly or by inference give historical evidence of the existence of Jesus within 150 years of his life.

Roman historian - Tacitus

Chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian - Suetonius

Jewish historian under Emperor Vespasian - Flavius Josephus

Thallus

Roman author and administrator - Pliny the Younger

Emperor Trajan

Emperor Hadrian

The Talmud

Lucian

Mara Bar-Serapion

Phlegon

___


From the sources above here is a composite of what these non-biblical historical sources tell us:

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

The composite above is from the book "I Don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" by Norman Geisler and Frank Turek. (pg. 223)

Last edited by DOC; 2nd January 2013 at 03:25 PM. Reason: took out Toledoth Jesu not sure it was within 150 years
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Old 2nd January 2013, 03:14 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Some have asked me who were the 9 non-biblical writers who make reference to occurrences in the NT, including Christ.

Here are 12 non-biblical sources that directly or by inference give historical evidence of the existence of Jesus within 150 years of his life.

Roman historian - Tacitus

Chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian - Suetonius

Jewish historian under Emperor Vespasian - Flavius Josephus

Thallus

Roman author and administrator - Pliny the Younger

Emperor Trajan

Emperor Hadrian

The Talmud

Anti Christian document Toledoth Jesu

Lucian

Mara Bar-Serapion

Phlegon

___


From the sources above here is a composite of what these non-biblical historical sources tell us:

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

The composite above is from the book "I Don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" by Norman Geisler and Frank Turek. (pg. 223)

I don't suppose you're going to give any details of the actual references? Because my money is on all those being references to Christians and what they believed rather than direct references to Jesus.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 03:35 PM   #391
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DOC: Since you have cited Chuck Missler as a source, are you - as he is - a birther? Also, do yoiu believe - as he does - that Obama is a Muslim? To see what I'm talking about, go here.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 03:42 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
DOC: Since you have cited Chuck Missler as a source, are you - as he is - a birther? Also, do yoiu believe - as he does - that Obama is a Muslim? To see what I'm talking about, go here.
Sounds like this is an ad hom. Where did I cite a person named Chuck Missler?
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Old 2nd January 2013, 04:20 PM   #393
TimCallahan
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Some have asked me who were the 9 non-biblical writers who make reference to occurrences in the NT, including Christ.

Here are 11 non-biblical sources that directly or by inference give historical evidence of the existence of Jesus within 150 years of his life.

Roman historian - Tacitus

Chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian - Suetonius

Jewish historian under Emperor Vespasian - Flavius Josephus

Thallus

Roman author and administrator - Pliny the Younger

Emperor Trajan

Emperor Hadrian

The Talmud

Lucian

Mara Bar-Serapion

Phlegon

___


. . . (major snip) . . .
Regarding Tacitus: All he said was that the Christians followed Christ who was put to death for sedition by Pontius Pilate.

Regarding Suetonius: He refers, in The Twelve Caesars, to Claudius expelling the Jews from Rome because of violent disputes among them instigated by "Chrestus." This may refer to Christ, in that the chaos resulted from disputes between jews and Christians or may not. It's a highly dubious source.

All that Josephus says (since the so called Testamentum Flavianum is an outright forgery) is that James, the brother of Jesus, "who was called the Christ," was put to death by the order of Annus. The phrase, "who was called the Christ," is disputed. If it turns out to be genuine, then all we have from Josephus is that Jesus was a messianic pretender. By the way, Josephus refers to about eight different people called "Jesus" i.e. Yeshua, which means, "Yahweh is salvation," not that unusual a name among people who worshipped Yahweh.

As far as I know, Pliny the Younger only made reference to Christians, not to Jesus.

Likewise, Lucian of Somasta, in The Golden Ass, only spoke of Christians, not of Jesus.

The Talmud's account of Jesus - written, I think, ca. 400 years after his death, refers to him as a magician, a fool and a fraud, and says his mother was a hair dresser.

As to the other sources, I'll need a citation. I don't know that either Hadrian or Trajan referred to Jesus, though they might have referred to Christians.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 04:43 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Sounds like this is an ad hom. Where did I cite a person named Chuck Missler?
You cited him in post # 294 on page 8 of this thread. Specifically, you said:

The Last 12 Verses of Mark
by Chuck Missler

"However, it seems that Irenaeus in 150 A.D., and also Hypolytus in the 2nd century, each quote from these disputed verses, so the documentary evidence is that they were deleted later in the Alexandrian texts, not added subsequently.)

But there is even more astonishing evidence for their original inclusion that is also profoundly instructive for broader reasons..."

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/201/

I didn't intend this as an ad hominem attack on you. As far as know, you are neither a birther nor have you, to my knowledge, argued that Obama is a Muslim. My point is that Missler is an unreliable source. I think I already pointed out that, as well as hold these wacky views, he believe flying saucer sightings are demonic apparitions and the work of the Nephilim.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 04:55 PM   #395
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Old 2nd January 2013, 05:25 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Saying something is some hard evidence for the truth of the bible is not saying this proves the bible.
Jesus had an erection?
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Old 2nd January 2013, 05:40 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Jesus had an erection?
The staff of life.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 08:07 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
right but DOC makes implications (after all this is a thread about evidence for anything that substantiates the Bible).

I have evidence that the Mississippi River exists. That doesn't mean anything as far as whether Huck Finn traveled down it however.
I guess it all depends on what you want to substantiate.
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Old 3rd January 2013, 01:19 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Well.. If English was good enought for Jesus....

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Old 3rd January 2013, 07:33 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Saying something is some hard evidence for the truth of the bible is not saying this proves the bible.


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