|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#1001 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adirondacks, NY - with Magrat!
Posts: 7,650
|
DOC,
The first part of your reply bears no relevance to my post. I was comparing two Bible quotes, which you apparently don't believe are history. John doesn't support your belief about a tight-lipped Jesus, though. As in the quote you supplied. Shall we call an ambulance? - you seem to have shot yourself in the foot.... |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1002 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
You were the one who provided the quote from John with the bolded bits that you claimed were evidence that Jesus was silent. No matter how much you twist and turn, there's no way for you to plausibly deny that that very same passage contains a quote of the words he apparently did speak: It beggars belief that you would try to use the above passage to demonstrate that Jesus was silent and when your error is pointed out claim that the prophecy was actually talking about his silence at some other time. And that that silence is, in fact, not noted - it is simply a lack of evidence that he said anything. This is easily the most intellectually bankrupt argument you've ever attempted. It's like being caught with your hand in the cookie jar and not just denying that you were stealing cookies but trying to get away with claiming that the jar doesn't even exist. A four-year-old could come up with something more convincing. |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1003 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
|
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1004 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 39,869
|
|
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1005 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Perfection, NV
Posts: 28,732
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1006 | ||
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,933
|
Regarding the bolded part above, some skeptics have complained he was only quiet once but here are some more places where Jesus chose not to speak:
Luke 23:9 Then (Herod) questioned (Jesus) in many words; but (Jesus) answered him nothing. Matthew 27: 12 And when (Jesus) was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing. Mark 15 3-5 And the chief priests accused him of many things. 4 And Pilate again asked him, “Have you no answer to make? See how many charges they bring against you.” 5 But Jesus made no further answer, so that Pilate was amazed.
|
||
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1007 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
1. There is no such thing as an "invisible ad hom" What do you think the term means?
2. Do you deny that you said, in one post, that you had read "most" of Did Jesus Exist?, and in another, different post, that you had read "about 30%"? I will be more than glad to "bring the link", but not until you commit. Did you: A. read all of Did Jesus Exist? B. read "most of" Did Jesus Exist? C. read "30%" of Did Jesus Exist? D. read some other, as yet not identified, portion of Did Jesus Exist? E. not really read Did Jesus Exist? at all, other than quote-mining the dust jacket and multiple on-line reviews I await your answer with interest. |
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1008 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
No, DOC, that is untrue. The claim, supported by the evidence of a passage that you quoted yourself, was that Jesus spoke at least once and therefore the prophecy fails. ETA: What a meaningless prophecy/fulfillment pair this is turning out to be. The only way for the prophecy to be considered unfulfilled according to your ad hoc rules would be for Jesus to babble non-stop from the moment of his arrest. As soon as he stops talking for more than the time it takes to draw a breath you'll be all, like, "Aha! Silence! The prophecy is fulfilled!" |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1009 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,933
|
This is all a waste of time but I looked it up. Here is what I said;
"I have access to the book, and I have spent about a half hour so far skimming it. Just from that short time it seems most of the book is Ehrman giving facts as to why he believes the historical Jesus existed." --- I don't know about you but I can skim a book in a half hour and determine what most of the book deals with. In fact I can skim the table of contents in 5 minutes and know what most of the book is about. Then after that I spent more time reading the book and skipping around to various chapters. During these readings I estimate I covered 30% of the book. From my reading of the book (not from the net) I learned Ehrman said "Jesus certainly existed", I learned he said there are solid reasons to believe Judas betrayed Christ, and I learned he said Jews were saying that Jesus was the crucified messiah by 32 CE. The fact that some skeptics are trying to put me down instead of thanking me for giving many this important information tells me some skeptics don't want to learn these things because they go against their beliefs that Jesus was just a myth. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1010 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Perfection, NV
Posts: 28,732
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1011 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
With all due respect, that is one of the things you have said about how much of Did Jesus Exist? you have read.
I'll overlook the visible argument ad hominem (with just a suggestion of poisoning the well), and say that I would not ever claim support from an author based on "skimming" a book. One of the reasons this is an issue is that you claim that Ehrman supports your opinion about Jesus...and you missed, in your "skimming", what Ehrman actually says. Just as you missed Ehrman's treatment od the "messianic" "prophecies" in Isaiah. Again, if I were going to claim that an author supports my opinion, I would not stoop to doing so based on "skimming" the Table of Contents of one book... You have made this claim before, and the problems with it have been pointed out to you. Most specifically, you ignore the Ehrman's actual position about the existence of Jesus. You really ought to consider reading Did Jesus Exist?. It isn't a very long book--re-reading it took me little more than a two-hour flight this weekend. Two things, DOC: -What is Ehrman's final word about the existence of Jesus, as a historical figure? In other words, what "important information" does Ehrman actually offer? (hint: it's in the book) -What is your actual answer to my question of how much of Did Jesus Exist? you, personally, have read? |
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1012 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,933
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1013 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
|
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1014 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
Had you read the book, you would recognize Ehrman's central argument. You have been provided the citation several times--if you did not bother to read it then, why would you bother to read it now?
Seriously--consider actually reading Did Jesus Exist?, if for no other reason that to avoid the continued error of claiming that Ehrman supports your opinions about Jesus... ETA: Out of curiosity, what good would the exact citation do you, as you do not "have access to" a copy of Did Jesus Exist?, and have stated that you do not need to read it? |
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1015 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 17,912
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1016 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 39,869
|
|
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1017 |
Troublesome Passenger
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,791
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1018 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Perfection, NV
Posts: 28,732
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1019 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adirondacks, NY - with Magrat!
Posts: 7,650
|
I note you wrote this:
"I learned he said there are solid reasons to believe Judas betrayed Christ" Did you ever tell us what these solid reasons are? Thank you. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1020 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 18,569
|
That's the most you can say, because you don't have a clue about how languages work and differ. I bet you don't even know a single language beyond your own - strike that, you haven't even shown proper command of English here.
![]() This is what Robert Young wrote in the preface to his "Literal Translation":
Quote:
|
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1021 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 21,532
|
This is an amazing bit of ignorance from you, DOC
![]() John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."JOHN 19:7-11 7 The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God.” 8 Therefore, when Pilate heard that saying, he was the more afraid, 9 and went again into the Praetorium, and said to Jesus, “Where are You from?” But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?” 11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”Matthew 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."Matthew 27:46 "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"Jesus spoke and thus is not the silent, ugly man who lived 500 years before Jesus as the actual text of Isaiah 53 states ![]() DOC, you ignored the other point that this song is about a "Suffering Servant" that existed in the past, i.e. 500 years before Jesus existed. Isaiah 53
Quote:
|
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1022 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 18,569
|
Good point, but to what extent? AFAIK, normal humans are not supposed to resurrect from death, except all at once at the End Times when Jesus is going to judge them all.
But I'd like to raise another point. Acts is, in fact, the sequel to Luke's gospel. Luke never mentions anything about Judas after his betrayal: no remorse, no throwing the 30 pieces into the temple like Matthew does. He only comes back to Judas' fate in this Acts 1:16-20 passage. Where does it say when Judas actually died? It could as well have been after Ascension in Luke's version. ![]() So who has? Nobody has specifically been given such power by Jesus. But the description in Acts of this choosing a new Twelfth disciple doesn't preclude that they were at the time an anarcho-syndicalist commune and Peter happened to be the executive officer of the week. ![]() In this context, it's apt that DOC has decided to dig up that quote about "this generation shall not pass". ![]() But I don't see how this passage solves the problem that Jesus did not come back during their lifetime - because he didn't come back. Moreover, I don't see how it helps that the author pretends to be John the disciple (or more precisely, "the disciple Jesus loves")? |
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1023 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 21,532
|
Regarding the bolded part:
10 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth;This is a statement that the servant did not open their mouth when they were "oppressed and afflicted" and when they were "led like a lamb to the slaughter". Jesus opened his mouth when he was "oppressed and afflicted" and was "led like a lamb to the slaughter" as you quoted yourself and as stated in several verses:
From Jewish Isaiah 53, a couple of evaluations of the song w.r.t Jesus being the servant (PDFs): ISAIAH 53 PART 1- PDF by Rabbi Moshe Shulman. The “Suffering Servant” of Isaiah 53 by Penina Taylor. The latter is a verse by verse analysis that shows that Jesus could not be the servant, e.g. Isaiah 53:10 explicitly states that the servant will see his physical offspring (not figurative children - these are 2 different words in Hebrew). Jesus had no children. ETA the conclusion is worth quoting:
Quote:
|
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1024 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 17,912
|
As I don't have the heart to go to the other thread or threads, wasn't "pierced" for his transgressions another problem in translation from the Greek that was sort of retro-fitted?
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1025 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 213
|
I'm not sure about this, if someone can confirm it, but I think the repetition in Isaiah about the silence is a poetic way of saying never. The whole OT is filled with such repetitions emphases, like the double-donkey-lulz. So the problem is not that jesus talked once but that he talked at all.
D'oh, I'm coming at once! |
__________________
"Karl Marx was right, socialism works, it is just that he had the wrong species" − E. O. Wilson |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1026 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,282
|
Based on the above post and previous posts, I have serious doubts as to whether you ever actually fully read anything let alone the texts that you quote. Now, you might not think that's a problem in itself - maybe it's just a side issue for you that detracts from your argument? In which case this might help: "Don't read a history book as if you were reading a novel for light pleasure reading." http://www.bowdoin.edu/writing-guides/ |
__________________
"Even among men lacking all distinction he inevitably stood out as a man lacking more distinction than all the rest, and people who met him were always impressed by how unimpressive he was." |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1027 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,933
|
deleted
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1028 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,933
|
Well, the Book "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" by Geisler/Turek doesn't accept superstitious assertions, it uses stone cold logic in their evidence for God. Here is a quote from page pg. 65.
"...we use induction to investigate God the same way we use it to investigate other things we can’t see— by observing their effects. For example, we can’t observe gravity directly; we can only observe its effects. Likewise we can’t observe the human mind directly, but only its effects. For those effects we make a rational inference to the existence of a cause." In chapter 3 of the book the authors go into depth using science to give evidence for God. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1029 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 213
|
Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's a goalpost!
|
__________________
"Karl Marx was right, socialism works, it is just that he had the wrong species" − E. O. Wilson |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1030 |
Back Pew Heckler
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 745
|
|
__________________
My glorified brain dump, ranting space and navel fluff collection The art and science of asking questions is the source of all knowledge - Thomas Berger |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1031 |
Muse
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 852
|
Quote:
Seeing as the likes of Craig Venter are so close as to render your "never" as in meaning "in the foreseeable future", you know you'll get called on it. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1032 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,933
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1033 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,933
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1034 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 213
|
|
__________________
"Karl Marx was right, socialism works, it is just that he had the wrong species" − E. O. Wilson |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1035 |
Muse
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 852
|
Yes I know, it does seem that way, however someones "5 year" guesstimate is IMO just that, however progress does happen and research marches on regardless of these estimates.
Timescales are not that relevant when the "never happen" argument turns up. Look at all the great things that have been discovered that took years to sort out, many before these things were found out would have said "never" too, and maybe even died before the dicovery was made prossbly... However you did (rightly IMO) delete your comment, so I'm guessing here you know you were on dodgy ground. I'm not critising you for it, I think it shows some honesty and doubt that what you posted is perhaps in your mind, arguable. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1036 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,933
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1037 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
|
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1038 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,933
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1039 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
|
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#1040 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
|
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|