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Tags McMartin preschool case

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Old 26th October 2011, 05:18 PM   #1
pipelineaudio
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STD's in the McMartin case

I was going back thru some of the McMartin threads scattered throughout the forums and was unable to find a definitive answer to a few questions.

Who was the original claim of STD's made by, and what sort was it, how many kids got the STD, and did it really turn out they had these STD's?

What is the rate of that STD in the general population at that age (I guess I'm asking, in the general population, how many kids, of the kids who are molested had that particular STD)?

How many did the prosecution claim had these STD's?

What was the eventual shakedown on the cases of STD?
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Old 26th October 2011, 06:26 PM   #2
davefoc
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Hi,
I had never heard of STD's in association with the McMartin school case. But I was interested enough that I went poking around. I found a bit of the routine anecdotal stuff that hangs around as the routine chaff that these kind of things generate, but I didn't find anything of substance until I hit on the guy pipelineaudio pontificating in another forum.

Quote:
She's the mom [referring to Jackie] of one of the girls in the case. She was the one who hired Gunderson and Gary Sickel. She is extremely concerned that criminals got away with some severe crimes. To me she is like the Kercher family in the Amanda Knox case: The police in both cases had told so many lies to the families early on, that it was hard to shake off the lies when the truth finally came out. They had too much invested in the police story.
I don't know exactly who this pipelineaudio is but he seems pretty smart. I'd go with his view on this thing.

I also didn't know about the Ted Gunderson/McMartin school case/Art Bell tie-in. I wonder what that fellow pipelinaudio that seems so smart on the other forum would have to say about all that.

The only thing I know about this is this long video that I looked at some of:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...84152254825718

ETA: I didn't know anything about Ted Gunderson before I started digging around. Seems like a bit of an interesting fellow and a bit of a whack job. Not sure of what the truth is but one thing seems clear. He's dead. He died July 31, 2011.
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Last edited by davefoc; 26th October 2011 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 26th October 2011, 07:23 PM   #3
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That pipelineaudio guy is actually a numbnutz....the only good stuff he knows is what he gets from reading the jref
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Old 27th October 2011, 04:04 AM   #4
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Skepticginger are you around? You seemed to know a lot about the case
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Old 27th October 2011, 05:02 AM   #5
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You can try to PM her.

All i know from the case I learned from wiki and a few other web site.
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Old 27th October 2011, 06:20 AM   #6
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I don't think there was any evidence in the case (in court) as to STDs. Jacque McGauley (who's a member here - Jacque) mentioned that there was ONE little girl who had an STD, but whose mother would not allow her to be a part of the trial.

There have been other articles that also mention STDs, but from interviews - not from police records or from the trial. There was no medical testimony on either side of the question ever introduced into evidence that I know of.
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Old 27th October 2011, 10:58 AM   #7
davefoc
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I went back and looked at the McMartin case thread that jacque participated in.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ad.php?t=74468

I searched it for references to STD and I didn't find any.

I did find this comment by the poster, davefoc:

Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
First a disclaimer: I long ago formed an opinion that the McMartin school case probably did not involve any wrong doing by the McMartin school staff. I also, long ago, formed an opinion that memories of things that never happened could be implanted and that implanted memories are probably the cause of most recovered memories.

...
I think I like that guy. He seems pretty reasonable and it sounds like his opinion about all this is probably correct.
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Old 2nd November 2011, 02:35 PM   #8
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Crap, Jackie just showed up, apparently didn't learn anything from the JREF, unfortunately

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=90315&page=2
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Old 2nd November 2011, 05:10 PM   #9
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No STD's, only a Salem witch hunt type of hysteria :

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Loftus

Loftus has become a controversial figure since her testimony at the daycare panic child abuse trials, including the McMartin trials, with a variety of groups developing massive hate-ons due to her crossing their agendas.
The more frothing-at-the-mouth members of the religious right decried her for covering up the ritual abuse of the vast Satanist conspiracy. Despite the charges being dropped in the McMartin cases with the help of Loftus, the school was demolished and the foundations dug up due to testimony by some of the children that there was a clandestine network of tunnels and catacombs that the Satanic rituals took place in.
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Old 3rd November 2011, 12:01 AM   #10
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Any way to verify that? I'm dealing with true believers, not just in this case, but in invisible sky monsters as well
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Old 3rd November 2011, 12:08 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
Skepticginger are you around? You seemed to know a lot about the case
There were no STDs in the McMartin case. This is the first time I've even heard of such a thing.

The whole case was the result of hysteria and nothing more.
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Old 3rd November 2011, 12:13 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I don't think there was any evidence in the case (in court) as to STDs. Jacque McGauley (who's a member here - Jacque) mentioned that there was ONE little girl who had an STD, but whose mother would not allow her to be a part of the trial.

There have been other articles that also mention STDs, but from interviews - not from police records or from the trial. There was no medical testimony on either side of the question ever introduced into evidence that I know of.
I'd like to see a link to this. I don't think the claim is valid but I'd be interested in confirming that.
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Old 3rd November 2011, 12:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
Crap, Jackie just showed up, apparently didn't learn anything from the JREF, unfortunately

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=90315&page=2
OK, looking at this thread I feel for the mother, however, my empathy is because she's been duped, not because her child was abused in some kind of Satanic ritual. The kids and parents were victims of the witch hunters and the incompetent interviewers, not victims of real physical abusers.
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Old 3rd November 2011, 12:21 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
Any way to verify that? ...
A preponderance of evidence is not enough?
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Old 3rd November 2011, 12:40 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
A preponderance of evidence is not enough?
Not for true believers. I just havent seen any links that can show there were no STD's...true believers like you to prove negatives, which i find rather difficult
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Old 3rd November 2011, 10:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
Not for true believers. I just havent seen any links that can show there were no STD's...true believers like you to prove negatives, which i find rather difficult
You can't find any links because there weren't any STDs. There wasn't any physical evidence any of the kids were ever sexually abused.

But here, try this: the cross examination of Dr. Bruce Woodling, director of medical examinations for Ventura County (Witness for the Prosecution). Notice the cross is all about the incredulity of diagnosing abuse occurred when no physical evidence of abuse was found.
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Old 3rd November 2011, 10:44 AM   #17
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Another one...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_C...ual_abuse_case
.
How this person managed to:
1) obtain an elephant
2) kill it (how?) in front of the class
3) dispose of several tons of dead elephant and
4) the owner of the elephant not raising a question got to me..
The DA in this case had to be frothing at the mouth while presenting her "evidence" to a jury.
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Old 3rd November 2011, 11:50 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
How this person managed to:
1) obtain an elephant
2) kill it (how?) in front of the class
3) dispose of several tons of dead elephant and
4) the owner of the elephant not raising a question got to me..
Maybe they had help. Could it be...

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Old 3rd November 2011, 11:56 AM   #19
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I'd be suspicious as to what any finding of molestation or STDs in the children could mean to the case, anyway. Because IIRC, wasn't it some 400 children who were ultimately "involved" in this case? In that large a segment, you're going to find some kids who've been molested elsewhere, by someone else, almost as a given. One or two, anyway, certainly.

A finding of evidence of molestation wouldn't mean much to me in this case, unless there were significant corroborating evidence to tie it to the defendants, like DNA or some such. It's possible there were molested kids in that group--molested by someone else.
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Old 3rd November 2011, 02:55 PM   #20
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The kids were molested by the investigators that ginned up their recalled memories of the extreme fantasies of the obviously disturbed investigators and the prosecutors!
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Old 3rd November 2011, 03:34 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'd like to see a link to this. I don't think the claim is valid but I'd be interested in confirming that.
It was a long google search to find it. Can't remember if I googled "STD & McMArtin" or her name and STD. Down around the end of the page of links was a link-back to our own thread and someone commenting on Jacquie's comment and then a track back to there. I believe the latter, because I remember not finding it on the first hunt.

But it's in that long thread.


And as sling noted, with the number of kids involved, the chance that one might have some form of STD is relatively high. The greater proof, though, is negative. She maintains that one kid (whose mom wouldn't allow to testify) had an STD. No one's mentioned more than one (the other articles were comments on comments and I couldn't find anything formal) and if there was one, in a case of RAMPANT abuse, there would've been others. None of the kids that were part of the trial had STDs.
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