STD's in the McMartin case

pipelineaudio · 26th October 2011, 05:18 PM

I was going back thru some of the McMartin threads scattered throughout the forums and was unable to find a definitive answer to a few questions.

Who was the original claim of STD's made by, and what sort was it, how many kids got the STD, and did it really turn out they had these STD's?

What is the rate of that STD in the general population at that age (I guess I'm asking, in the general population, how many kids, of the kids who are molested had that particular STD)?

How many did the prosecution claim had these STD's?

What was the eventual shakedown on the cases of STD?

davefoc · 26th October 2011, 06:26 PM

Hi,
I had never heard of STD's in association with the McMartin school case. But I was interested enough that I went poking around. I found a bit of the routine anecdotal stuff that hangs around as the routine chaff that these kind of things generate, but I didn't find anything of substance until I hit on the guy pipelineaudio pontificating in another forum.

Quote:

She's the mom [referring to Jackie] of one of the girls in the case. She was the one who hired Gunderson and Gary Sickel. She is extremely concerned that criminals got away with some severe crimes. To me she is like the Kercher family in the Amanda Knox case: The police in both cases had told so many lies to the families early on, that it was hard to shake off the lies when the truth finally came out. They had too much invested in the police story.

I don't know exactly who this pipelineaudio is but he seems pretty smart. I'd go with his view on this thing.

I also didn't know about the Ted Gunderson/McMartin school case/Art Bell tie-in. I wonder what that fellow pipelinaudio that seems so smart on the other forum would have to say about all that.

The only thing I know about this is this long video that I looked at some of:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...84152254825718

ETA: I didn't know anything about Ted Gunderson before I started digging around. Seems like a bit of an interesting fellow and a bit of a whack job. Not sure of what the truth is but one thing seems clear. He's dead. He died July 31, 2011.

pipelineaudio · 26th October 2011, 07:23 PM

That pipelineaudio guy is actually a numbnutz....the only good stuff he knows is what he gets from reading the jref

pipelineaudio · 27th October 2011, 04:04 AM

Skepticginger are you around? You seemed to know a lot about the case

Aepervius · 27th October 2011, 05:02 AM

You can try to PM her.

All i know from the case I learned from wiki and a few other web site.

Foolmewunz · 27th October 2011, 06:20 AM

I don't think there was any evidence in the case (in court) as to STDs. Jacque McGauley (who's a member here - Jacque) mentioned that there was ONE little girl who had an STD, but whose mother would not allow her to be a part of the trial.

There have been other articles that also mention STDs, but from interviews - not from police records or from the trial. There was no medical testimony on either side of the question ever introduced into evidence that I know of.

davefoc · 27th October 2011, 10:58 AM

I went back and looked at the McMartin case thread that jacque participated in.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ad.php?t=74468

I searched it for references to STD and I didn't find any.

I did find this comment by the poster, davefoc:

Originally Posted by davefoc

First a disclaimer: I long ago formed an opinion that the McMartin school case probably did not involve any wrong doing by the McMartin school staff. I also, long ago, formed an opinion that memories of things that never happened could be implanted and that implanted memories are probably the cause of most recovered memories.

...

I think I like that guy. He seems pretty reasonable and it sounds like his opinion about all this is probably correct.

pipelineaudio · 2nd November 2011, 02:35 PM

Crap, Jackie just showed up, apparently didn't learn anything from the JREF, unfortunately

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=90315&page=2

Roma · 2nd November 2011, 05:10 PM

No STD's, only a Salem witch hunt type of hysteria :

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Loftus

Loftus has become a controversial figure since her testimony at the daycare panic child abuse trials, including the McMartin trials, with a variety of groups developing massive hate-ons due to her crossing their agendas.
The more frothing-at-the-mouth members of the religious right decried her for covering up the ritual abuse of the vast Satanist conspiracy. Despite the charges being dropped in the McMartin cases with the help of Loftus, the school was demolished and the foundations dug up due to testimony by some of the children that there was a clandestine network of tunnels and catacombs that the Satanic rituals took place in.

pipelineaudio · 3rd November 2011, 12:01 AM

Any way to verify that? I'm dealing with true believers, not just in this case, but in invisible sky monsters as well

Skeptic Ginger · 3rd November 2011, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Skepticginger are you around? You seemed to know a lot about the case

There were no STDs in the McMartin case. This is the first time I've even heard of such a thing.

The whole case was the result of hysteria and nothing more.

Skeptic Ginger · 3rd November 2011, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

I don't think there was any evidence in the case (in court) as to STDs. Jacque McGauley (who's a member here - Jacque) mentioned that there was ONE little girl who had an STD, but whose mother would not allow her to be a part of the trial.

There have been other articles that also mention STDs, but from interviews - not from police records or from the trial. There was no medical testimony on either side of the question ever introduced into evidence that I know of.

I'd like to see a link to this. I don't think the claim is valid but I'd be interested in confirming that.

Skeptic Ginger · 3rd November 2011, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Crap, Jackie just showed up, apparently didn't learn anything from the JREF, unfortunately

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=90315&page=2

OK, looking at this thread I feel for the mother, however, my empathy is because she's been duped, not because her child was abused in some kind of Satanic ritual. The kids and parents were victims of the witch hunters and the incompetent interviewers, not victims of real physical abusers.

Skeptic Ginger · 3rd November 2011, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Any way to verify that? ...

A preponderance of evidence is not enough?

pipelineaudio · 3rd November 2011, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

A preponderance of evidence is not enough?

Not for true believers. I just havent seen any links that can show there were no STD's...true believers like you to prove negatives, which i find rather difficult

Skeptic Ginger · 3rd November 2011, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Not for true believers. I just havent seen any links that can show there were no STD's...true believers like you to prove negatives, which i find rather difficult

You can't find any links because there weren't any STDs. There wasn't any physical evidence any of the kids were ever sexually abused.

But here, try this: the cross examination of Dr. Bruce Woodling, director of medical examinations for Ventura County (Witness for the Prosecution). Notice the cross is all about the incredulity of diagnosing abuse occurred when no physical evidence of abuse was found.

I Ratant · 3rd November 2011, 10:44 AM

Another one...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_C...ual_abuse_case
.
How this person managed to:
1) obtain an elephant
2) kill it (how?) in front of the class
3) dispose of several tons of dead elephant and
4) the owner of the elephant not raising a question got to me..
The DA in this case had to be frothing at the mouth while presenting her "evidence" to a jury.

timhau · 3rd November 2011, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

How this person managed to:
1) obtain an elephant
2) kill it (how?) in front of the class
3) dispose of several tons of dead elephant and
4) the owner of the elephant not raising a question got to me..

Maybe they had help. Could it be...

slingblade · 3rd November 2011, 11:56 AM

I'd be suspicious as to what any finding of molestation or STDs in the children could mean to the case, anyway. Because IIRC, wasn't it some 400 children who were ultimately "involved" in this case? In that large a segment, you're going to find some kids who've been molested elsewhere, by someone else, almost as a given. One or two, anyway, certainly.

A finding of evidence of molestation wouldn't mean much to me in this case, unless there were significant corroborating evidence to tie it to the defendants, like DNA or some such. It's possible there were molested kids in that group--molested by someone else.

I Ratant · 3rd November 2011, 02:55 PM

The kids were molested by the investigators that ginned up their recalled memories of the extreme fantasies of the obviously disturbed investigators and the prosecutors!

Foolmewunz · 3rd November 2011, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I'd like to see a link to this. I don't think the claim is valid but I'd be interested in confirming that.

It was a long google search to find it. Can't remember if I googled "STD & McMArtin" or her name and STD. Down around the end of the page of links was a link-back to our own thread and someone commenting on Jacquie's comment and then a track back to there. I believe the latter, because I remember not finding it on the first hunt.

But it's in that long thread.

And as sling noted, with the number of kids involved, the chance that one might have some form of STD is relatively high. The greater proof, though, is negative. She maintains that one kid (whose mom wouldn't allow to testify) had an STD. No one's mentioned more than one (the other articles were comments on comments and I couldn't find anything formal) and if there was one, in a case of RAMPANT abuse, there would've been others. None of the kids that were part of the trial had STDs.

26th October 2011, 05:18 PM	#1
pipelineaudio Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,264	STD's in the McMartin case I was going back thru some of the McMartin threads scattered throughout the forums and was unable to find a definitive answer to a few questions. Who was the original claim of STD's made by, and what sort was it, how many kids got the STD, and did it really turn out they had these STD's? What is the rate of that STD in the general population at that age (I guess I'm asking, in the general population, how many kids, of the kids who are molested had that particular STD)? How many did the prosecution claim had these STD's? What was the eventual shakedown on the cases of STD?
	__________________ Don't fear the REAPER, embrace it

26th October 2011, 06:26 PM	#2
davefoc Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: orange country, california Posts: 9,425	Hi, I had never heard of STD's in association with the McMartin school case. But I was interested enough that I went poking around. I found a bit of the routine anecdotal stuff that hangs around as the routine chaff that these kind of things generate, but I didn't find anything of substance until I hit on the guy pipelineaudio pontificating in another forum. Quote: She's the mom [referring to Jackie] of one of the girls in the case. She was the one who hired Gunderson and Gary Sickel. She is extremely concerned that criminals got away with some severe crimes. To me she is like the Kercher family in the Amanda Knox case: The police in both cases had told so many lies to the families early on, that it was hard to shake off the lies when the truth finally came out. They had too much invested in the police story. I don't know exactly who this pipelineaudio is but he seems pretty smart. I'd go with his view on this thing. I also didn't know about the Ted Gunderson/McMartin school case/Art Bell tie-in. I wonder what that fellow pipelinaudio that seems so smart on the other forum would have to say about all that. The only thing I know about this is this long video that I looked at some of: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...84152254825718 ETA: I didn't know anything about Ted Gunderson before I started digging around. Seems like a bit of an interesting fellow and a bit of a whack job. Not sure of what the truth is but one thing seems clear. He's dead. He died July 31, 2011.
	__________________ The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb Last edited by davefoc; 26th October 2011 at 06:51 PM.

26th October 2011, 07:23 PM	#3
pipelineaudio Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,264	That pipelineaudio guy is actually a numbnutz....the only good stuff he knows is what he gets from reading the jref
	__________________ Don't fear the REAPER, embrace it

27th October 2011, 04:04 AM	#4
pipelineaudio Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,264	Skepticginger are you around? You seemed to know a lot about the case
	__________________ Don't fear the REAPER, embrace it

27th October 2011, 06:20 AM	#6
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 40,887	I don't think there was any evidence in the case (in court) as to STDs. Jacque McGauley (who's a member here - Jacque) mentioned that there was ONE little girl who had an STD, but whose mother would not allow her to be a part of the trial. There have been other articles that also mention STDs, but from interviews - not from police records or from the trial. There was no medical testimony on either side of the question ever introduced into evidence that I know of.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

27th October 2011, 05:02 AM	#5
Aepervius Non credunt, semper verificare Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Sigil, the city of doors Posts: 14,581	You can try to PM her. All i know from the case I learned from wiki and a few other web site.

27th October 2011, 10:58 AM	#7
davefoc Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: orange country, california Posts: 9,425	I went back and looked at the McMartin case thread that jacque participated in. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ad.php?t=74468 I searched it for references to STD and I didn't find any. I did find this comment by the poster, davefoc: Originally Posted by davefoc First a disclaimer: I long ago formed an opinion that the McMartin school case probably did not involve any wrong doing by the McMartin school staff. I also, long ago, formed an opinion that memories of things that never happened could be implanted and that implanted memories are probably the cause of most recovered memories. ... I think I like that guy. He seems pretty reasonable and it sounds like his opinion about all this is probably correct.
	__________________ The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb

2nd November 2011, 02:35 PM	#8
pipelineaudio Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,264	Crap, Jackie just showed up, apparently didn't learn anything from the JREF, unfortunately http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=90315&page=2
	__________________ Don't fear the REAPER, embrace it

2nd November 2011, 05:10 PM	#9
Roma Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,073	No STD's, only a Salem witch hunt type of hysteria : http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Loftus Loftus has become a controversial figure since her testimony at the daycare panic child abuse trials, including the McMartin trials, with a variety of groups developing massive hate-ons due to her crossing their agendas. The more frothing-at-the-mouth members of the religious right decried her for covering up the ritual abuse of the vast Satanist conspiracy. Despite the charges being dropped in the McMartin cases with the help of Loftus, the school was demolished and the foundations dug up due to testimony by some of the children that there was a clandestine network of tunnels and catacombs that the Satanic rituals took place in.
Roma Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,073	__________________ I only know what I want to know.

3rd November 2011, 12:01 AM	#10
pipelineaudio Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,264	Any way to verify that? I'm dealing with true believers, not just in this case, but in invisible sky monsters as well
	__________________ Don't fear the REAPER, embrace it

3rd November 2011, 12:08 AM	#11
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 74,609	Originally Posted by pipelineaudio Skepticginger are you around? You seemed to know a lot about the case There were no STDs in the McMartin case. This is the first time I've even heard of such a thing. The whole case was the result of hysteria and nothing more.
	__________________ "Somebody reboot Mike Pence, he's buffering." Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

3rd November 2011, 12:13 AM	#12
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 74,609	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz I don't think there was any evidence in the case (in court) as to STDs. Jacque McGauley (who's a member here - Jacque) mentioned that there was ONE little girl who had an STD, but whose mother would not allow her to be a part of the trial. There have been other articles that also mention STDs, but from interviews - not from police records or from the trial. There was no medical testimony on either side of the question ever introduced into evidence that I know of. I'd like to see a link to this. I don't think the claim is valid but I'd be interested in confirming that.
	__________________ "Somebody reboot Mike Pence, he's buffering." Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

3rd November 2011, 12:20 AM	#13
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 74,609	Originally Posted by pipelineaudio Crap, Jackie just showed up, apparently didn't learn anything from the JREF, unfortunately http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=90315&page=2 OK, looking at this thread I feel for the mother, however, my empathy is because she's been duped, not because her child was abused in some kind of Satanic ritual. The kids and parents were victims of the witch hunters and the incompetent interviewers, not victims of real physical abusers.
	__________________ "Somebody reboot Mike Pence, he's buffering." Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

3rd November 2011, 12:21 AM	#14
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 74,609	Originally Posted by pipelineaudio Any way to verify that? ... A preponderance of evidence is not enough?
	__________________ "Somebody reboot Mike Pence, he's buffering." Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

3rd November 2011, 12:40 AM	#15
pipelineaudio Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,264	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger A preponderance of evidence is not enough? Not for true believers. I just havent seen any links that can show there were no STD's...true believers like you to prove negatives, which i find rather difficult
	__________________ Don't fear the REAPER, embrace it

3rd November 2011, 10:35 AM	#16
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 74,609	Originally Posted by pipelineaudio Not for true believers. I just havent seen any links that can show there were no STD's...true believers like you to prove negatives, which i find rather difficult You can't find any links because there weren't any STDs. There wasn't any physical evidence any of the kids were ever sexually abused. But here, try this: the cross examination of Dr. Bruce Woodling, director of medical examinations for Ventura County (Witness for the Prosecution). Notice the cross is all about the incredulity of diagnosing abuse occurred when no physical evidence of abuse was found.
	__________________ "Somebody reboot Mike Pence, he's buffering." Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

3rd November 2011, 10:44 AM	#17
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 19,258	Another one... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_C...ual_abuse_case . How this person managed to: 1) obtain an elephant 2) kill it (how?) in front of the class 3) dispose of several tons of dead elephant and 4) the owner of the elephant not raising a question got to me.. The DA in this case had to be frothing at the mouth while presenting her "evidence" to a jury.

3rd November 2011, 11:50 AM	#18
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 13,132	Originally Posted by I Ratant How this person managed to: 1) obtain an elephant 2) kill it (how?) in front of the class 3) dispose of several tons of dead elephant and 4) the owner of the elephant not raising a question got to me.. Maybe they had help. Could it be...
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

3rd November 2011, 11:56 AM	#19
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,466	I'd be suspicious as to what any finding of molestation or STDs in the children could mean to the case, anyway. Because IIRC, wasn't it some 400 children who were ultimately "involved" in this case? In that large a segment, you're going to find some kids who've been molested elsewhere, by someone else, almost as a given. One or two, anyway, certainly. A finding of evidence of molestation wouldn't mean much to me in this case, unless there were significant corroborating evidence to tie it to the defendants, like DNA or some such. It's possible there were molested kids in that group--molested by someone else.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,466

3rd November 2011, 02:55 PM	#20
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 19,258	The kids were molested by the investigators that ginned up their recalled memories of the extreme fantasies of the obviously disturbed investigators and the prosecutors!

3rd November 2011, 03:34 PM	#21
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 40,887	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger I'd like to see a link to this. I don't think the claim is valid but I'd be interested in confirming that. It was a long google search to find it. Can't remember if I googled "STD & McMArtin" or her name and STD. Down around the end of the page of links was a link-back to our own thread and someone commenting on Jacquie's comment and then a track back to there. I believe the latter, because I remember not finding it on the first hunt. But it's in that long thread. And as sling noted, with the number of kids involved, the chance that one might have some form of STD is relatively high. The greater proof, though, is negative. She maintains that one kid (whose mom wouldn't allow to testify) had an STD. No one's mentioned more than one (the other articles were comments on comments and I couldn't find anything formal) and if there was one, in a case of RAMPANT abuse, there would've been others. None of the kids that were part of the trial had STDs.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.