ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 22nd November 2011, 08:20 PM   #121
devnull
Philosopher
 
devnull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,188
really? Who was Asherah then?
__________________
no, i don't think i need to read naturalistic literature more accurately, to be convinced its true. - Gibhor
devnull is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2011, 08:56 PM   #122
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,743
Originally Posted by JudeBrando View Post
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god."


"I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."


"For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I did not speak in secret, in a land of darkness; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, 'Seek me in vain.' I the LORD speak the truth; I declare what is right. "Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save. Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other."


"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"
Good thing you're not the lord.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2011, 09:07 PM   #123
JudeBrando
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,692
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Good thing you're not the lord.
Damn right. His patience and forbearance far exceeds mine. Use your remaining time wisely and learn thanksgiving... or not. As You Will.

Last edited by JudeBrando; 22nd November 2011 at 09:14 PM.
JudeBrando is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2011, 09:16 PM   #124
Brainache
Nasty Brutish and Tall
 
Brainache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,647
Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
I've verified for myself that the Divine, whatever it is, is real. As for the plans of the Divine, I think they are difficult for us to wrap our heads around because the Divine uses both causality and retro-causality to bring itself about in both the past and the future (alpha and omega). The plan of the Divine is to be.
You know it's real, but you don't know what it is.
You know it has plans, but you don't know what they are.
Causality/retro-causality? I don't think the Divine knows if it's coming or going.
The plan of the Divine is to be. I am, does that make me divine?
__________________
Words cannot convey the vertiginous retching horror that enveloped me as I lost consciousness. - W. S. Burroughs

Invert the prominent diaphragm!!!

I have eaten breakfast and have not written an Epistle to any Church. - dejudge.
Brainache is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2011, 09:41 PM   #125
Craig4
Philosopher
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Reston, Virginia
Posts: 8,081
Originally Posted by JudeBrando View Post
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god."


"I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."


"For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I did not speak in secret, in a land of darkness; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, 'Seek me in vain.' I the LORD speak the truth; I declare what is right. "Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save. Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other."


"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"
Care to prove this lord fella wrote this? If you can't it's just a fairy story.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2011, 11:13 PM   #126
Mr. Scott
Under the Amazing One's Wing
 
Mr. Scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,548
Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
I've verified for myself that the Divine, whatever it is, is real.
How did you do that?
Mr. Scott is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2011, 11:30 PM   #127
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E
Posts: 7,329
Originally Posted by edge View Post
Where's your sorce?
Originally Posted by edge View Post
I need to know where he is coming from and in here it's the rules... when you copy and paste?
Is that how you avoid difficult question? Say "there is no link" (to the bible???)

That doesn't ring true to me. Even if you were too lazy to pick up your copy of the bible, you could always look up http://www.biblegateway.com/ and verify my quotes.

Hey, look at that! I just quoted a "sorce"! Now you will have to answer me.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 01:45 AM   #128
Mudcat
Man of a Thousand Memes
 
Mudcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 5,634
Originally Posted by Multivac View Post
The bible is a work of fiction written by bronze-age goat herders. Unfortunately, due to transcription errors, the first page of the bible is missing which is a shame as the authors dedicate the book to their wives and children who put up with them while they wrote it. The editor is also mentioned.
Not to mention the disclaimer: This is a work of fiction, any resemblance to events, places or people; living or dead; is purely coincidental.
__________________
The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one.


Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.
Mudcat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 02:38 AM   #129
Leumas
Master Poster
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,943
Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Not to mention the disclaimer: This is a work of fiction, any resemblance to events, places or people; living or dead; is purely coincidental.
__________________
"I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't" - Jules Renard
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty" - Thomas Jefferson
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - Mark Twain
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 04:54 AM   #130
Limbo
Jedi Consular
 
Limbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,103
Originally Posted by Mr. Scott View Post
How did you do that?

By using various techniques of mysticism.
__________________
"Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo.

"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."
Limbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 05:28 AM   #131
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
By using various techniques of mysticism.
Yea, right.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 05:57 AM   #132
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,743
Originally Posted by JudeBrando View Post
Damn right. His patience and forbearance far exceeds mine. Use your remaining time wisely and learn thanksgiving... or not. As You Will.
How do you know that?
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 05:59 AM   #133
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,743
Originally Posted by Mr. Scott View Post
How did you do that?
I'm sure he did like they all do and just looked into his own mind.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 06:01 AM   #134
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,743
Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
By using various techniques of mysticism.
You went without food or water till you started hallucinating?

Last edited by tsig; 23rd November 2011 at 06:10 AM.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 06:16 AM   #135
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
 
Paulhoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 12,609
Originally Posted by JudeBrando View Post
"I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God

you shall have no other gods before me.

"Gods" is pural.

I have never hear of your versions before. But it is easy to change words in books, that is why the god of the bible isn't a real one. A real god's bible could never ever be changed in anyway that would change any meaning within it by anyone. Seeing that the bible is not self correcting, it has nothing to do with a real god.

Paul

__________________
For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST"
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given
Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous
A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge
Science doesn’t know everything, but religion doesn’t know anything
Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing
Paulhoff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 10:14 AM   #136
edge
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,436
Originally Posted by Paulhoff View Post
you shall have no other gods before me.

"Gods" is pural.

I have never hear of your versions before. But it is easy to change words in books, that is why the god of the bible isn't a real one. A real god's bible could never ever be changed in anyway that would change any meaning within it by anyone. Seeing that the bible is not self correcting, it has nothing to do with a real god.

Paul

Wrong, it says we have the right to re-proof it and discuss it.
He's talking about the false paths and the false gods, not to mention the beings that are lower.
Especially the fallen ones that are lower who trick us into believing they are god, that's one of the reasons and rights we have and that is to figure it out.
That is also part of his plan.
Listen and read what Jude Brando posted before.
edge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 10:14 AM   #137
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,743
Originally Posted by Paulhoff View Post
you shall have no other gods before me.

"Gods" is pural.

I have never hear of your versions before. But it is easy to change words in books, that is why the god of the bible isn't a real one. A real god's bible could never ever be changed in anyway that would change any meaning within it by anyone. Seeing that the bible is not self correcting, it has nothing to do with a real god.

Paul

Yes, seems like a real book of god would have only one meaning so if two or more read it they would all agree on what it meant, the fact that we have all these different interpretations is strong evidence that it's just another work of fiction with a poor plot and only one sustaining character.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 10:48 AM   #138
Resume
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,813
Originally Posted by JudeBrando View Post
Damn right. His patience and forbearance far exceeds mine.
As far as I can tell, your god is a moody, jealous SOB. Seems to hate kids too.

If you believe the stories anyway.
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 11:34 AM   #139
Elizabeth I
Olympic Equestrian Wannabe
 
Elizabeth I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 9,901
Originally Posted by JudeBrando View Post
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god."


"I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."


"For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I did not speak in secret, in a land of darkness; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, 'Seek me in vain.' I the LORD speak the truth; I declare what is right. "Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save. Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other."


"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"
That's nice. So what?

Jude Brando, you sometimes answer questions put to you, so I'd like to ask why someone of at least normal intelligence would quote the Bible to a bunch of people who put no credence in it, as if that would prove something to them. Why do you do that? It's like quoting the Just-So stories to describe to a bunch of evolutionary biologists how the rhinoceros got its skin or the armadillo its scales. So why do you do it?

Thank you.
__________________

• There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. - Winston Churchill
• Never wrestle with a pig - you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it.
• My blog: Pardon me, may I ask...

Last edited by Elizabeth I; 23rd November 2011 at 01:02 PM. Reason: used the wrong word
Elizabeth I is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 11:39 AM   #140
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,994
Originally Posted by edge View Post
Wrong, it says we have the right to re-proof it and discuss it.
He's talking about the false paths and the false gods, not to mention the beings that are lower.
Especially the fallen ones that are lower who trick us into believing they are god, that's one of the reasons and rights we have and that is to figure it out.
That is also part of his plan.
Listen and read what Jude Brando posted before.
How do I know you and Jude aren't merely the lower ones who trick us?
Afterall, you have no evidence to support your argument.
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 12:33 PM   #141
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,743
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
As far as I can tell, your god is a moody, jealous SOB. Seems to hate kids too.

If you believe the stories anyway.
He will arbitrarily kill off women, children and animals just to win a bet with his good bud, Satan.

Last edited by tsig; 23rd November 2011 at 12:35 PM. Reason: add comma
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 02:38 PM   #142
edge
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,436
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
He will arbitrarily kill off women, children and animals just to win a bet with his good bud, Satan.
God's reasons are his reason, who are you to say he can or can't?
What would have happened if he lost that bet?
Quote:

9So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did according as the LORD commanded them. The LORD also accepted Job.


10And the LORD released Job from captivity when he prayed for his friends. Also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.


11Then came there unto him all his brethren and all his sisters, and all those who had been of his acquaintance before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they bemoaned him and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him. Every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.


12So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning; for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand sheasses.


13He had also seven sons and three daughters.


14And he called the name of the first Jemimah, and the name of the second Keziah, and the name of the third Kerenhappuch.


15And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job, and their father gave them an inheritance among their brethren.


16After this Job lived one hundred and forty years, and saw his sons and his sons' sons, even four generations.


17So Job died, being old and full of days.

All Gods plan.
Never give up never surrender.
The devil hasn't gone anywhere, he's doing it to us all still.
edge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 02:52 PM   #143
Leumas
Master Poster
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,943
Originally Posted by Paulhoff View Post
you shall have no other gods before me.

"Gods" is pural.

I have never hear of your versions before. But it is easy to change words in books, that is why the god of the bible isn't a real one. A real god's bible could never ever be changed in anyway that would change any meaning within it by anyone. Seeing that the bible is not self correcting, it has nothing to do with a real god.

Paul

Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Yes, seems like a real book of god would have only one meaning so if two or more read it they would all agree on what it meant, the fact that we have all these different interpretations is strong evidence that it's just another work of fiction with a poor plot and only one sustaining character.

EXACTLY.........
__________________
"I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't" - Jules Renard
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty" - Thomas Jefferson
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - Mark Twain
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 02:53 PM   #144
Leumas
Master Poster
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,943
Originally Posted by edge View Post
Wrong, it says we have the right to re-proof it and discuss it.
He's talking about the false paths and the false gods, not to mention the beings that are lower.
Especially the fallen ones that are lower who trick us into believing they are god, that's one of the reasons and rights we have and that is to figure it out.
That is also part of his plan.
Listen and read what Jude Brando posted before.

How do you know you are not being tricked??????

Why are the others being tricked .....but you are not?????

What if YOU TOO were being tricked????

How would a trickster god's bible have been any different from the one we have today????

How would the world be any different from one being run by a none caring shyster of a god???

I am really interested to know Edge.....how do you know you are not being tricked?????
__________________
"I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't" - Jules Renard
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty" - Thomas Jefferson
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - Mark Twain
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 03:02 PM   #145
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
 
Paulhoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 12,609
Originally Posted by edge View Post
The devil hasn't gone anywhere, he's doing it to us all still.
How the hell does an archangel ever get on the same level as a god.

Paul

__________________
For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST"
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given
Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous
A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge
Science doesn’t know everything, but religion doesn’t know anything
Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing
Paulhoff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 03:04 PM   #146
Complexity
The Woo Whisperer
 
Complexity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 9,245
Originally Posted by Paulhoff View Post
How the hell does an archangel ever get on the same level as a god.

Paul


Pretend assasination?

In the xian silly story, improved upon by Milton, satan almost made it.

Wish he had - it would have been a much better story.
__________________
"It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work."

- W. Somerset Maugham

"Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man."

- Bertrand Russell

Last edited by Complexity; 23rd November 2011 at 03:15 PM.
Complexity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 03:07 PM   #147
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,743
Originally Posted by edge View Post
God's reasons are his reason, who are you to say he can or can't?
What would have happened if he lost that bet?



All Gods plan.
Never give up never surrender.
The devil hasn't gone anywhere, he's doing it to us all still.
Right, GWIMW* yet you seem to know what and why god wants things, how is that?

The devil didn't do anything. God's the one that did the killing.

*god works in mysterious ways
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 03:13 PM   #148
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,743
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
How do you know you are not being tricked??????

Why are the others being tricked .....but you are not?????

What if YOU TOO were being tricked????

How would a trickster god's bible have been any different from the one we have today????

How would the world be any different from one being run by a none caring shyster of a god???

I am really interested to know Edge.....how do you know you are not being tricked?????
Indeed. Whose attributes would people think these are the devil or god:

Plays games with human lives

Lies constantly

Actively forces men to do evil

Kills children for laughing as his messenger

Destroys all life on the planet less eight.

ect. ect. ect.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 03:26 PM   #149
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
 
Paulhoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 12,609
Originally Posted by edge View Post
God's reasons are his reason, who are you to say he can or can't?
That is the problem with you people that believe in the god of the bible, you are afraid to hold him to a higher standard like any real god should be.

Paul

__________________
For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST"
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given
Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous
A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge
Science doesn’t know everything, but religion doesn’t know anything
Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing
Paulhoff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 03:29 PM   #150
Mr. Scott
Under the Amazing One's Wing
 
Mr. Scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,548
Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
By using various techniques of mysticism.
OK, how do you know it wasn't just your mind playing tricks on you? People of every faith do the same thing and confirm their beliefs, many contradictory to yours, the same way. My grandfather converted to Christianity while he was reading the Bible in bed the middle of the night, obviously sleep deprived and very likely dreaming. Someone else I know sees ghosts when they are in that awake/asleep paralysis zone - even I do. The brain is a powerful hallucination machine, and religious hallucinations tend to confirm whatever faith is hovering in your mind at the moment when these hallucinations are most likely.

So, Limbo, how can you be sure your various techniques of mysticism didn't merely allow your brain to mess with you the way brains are known to do? How do you know it wasn't Satan messing with you?
Mr. Scott is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 03:38 PM   #151
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E
Posts: 7,329
Originally Posted by edge View Post
Lets see what you got here.

Later in the day...
Lets all understand who they were.
The League of Corinth, a federation of ancient Greek states.
err ...

Originally Posted by edge View Post
And as usual you left out the rest.

11O ye Corinthians, our mouth is opened unto you, and our heart is enlarged.

12Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own affections.

13Now as a recompense for this (I speak as unto my children), be ye also enlarged.
Those three verses have nothing to do with pagan influences. They are basically just Paul asking the Corinthians to be nice like he is.

Originally Posted by edge View Post
14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?

15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God. [b]As God hath said: "I will dwell in them and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

17Therefore, "Come out from among them, and be ye separate," saith the Lord. "And touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you,

18and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters," saith the Lord Almighty.
Verses 17 and 18 are consistent with the three that I quoted.


Originally Posted by edge View Post
And you’re telling me that you understand this passage?
Of course not! Nobody actually understands any of the passages in the bible - they merely interpret them. The quoted verses are clearly suggesting that God's followers should keep to their own because God has nothing to do with evil.

Originally Posted by edge View Post
We were talking about what God/Jesus said.
Have you forgotten which part of your posts I was responding to?

Originally Posted by edge View Post
So separating you're self from the bad is what?

Part of The plan? For Us to do?
No Hell, in Sight?
The unclean thing is what?
idols/Belial/infidel

Their false religion.
like Sledge said ...

Originally Posted by edge View Post
Your point is Moot.
Do you have any idea what my point is?
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 04:04 PM   #152
Limbo
Jedi Consular
 
Limbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,103
Originally Posted by Mr. Scott View Post
OK, how do you know it wasn't just your mind playing tricks on you? People of every faith do the same thing and confirm their beliefs, many contradictory to yours, the same way. My grandfather converted to Christianity while he was reading the Bible in bed the middle of the night, obviously sleep deprived and very likely dreaming. Someone else I know sees ghosts when they are in that awake/asleep paralysis zone - even I do. The brain is a powerful hallucination machine, and religious hallucinations tend to confirm whatever faith is hovering in your mind at the moment when these hallucinations are most likely.

So, Limbo, how can you be sure your various techniques of mysticism didn't merely allow your brain to mess with you the way brains are known to do? How do you know it wasn't Satan messing with you?

Valid questions, Mr Scott. Knowing is a problem.

My approach to solving that problem is two-fold. First, years of studying comparative mysticism, comparative religion, comparative mythology. That has enabled me to unlearn all the crud that pop-culture and orthodoxy shoves in our heads all our lives. Crud that still fills the heads of most religious and non-religious people. Once all that crud is unlearned, then true learning can begin. The comparative fields have allowed me to understand God in a way that few people do. I know what to look for, I understand the pattern of mystical development. That makes it hard for my brain or for Satan to mess with me.

Second, I have received verifiable non-local information from God. For example, a series of dreams that came true in sequence. Or visions of the future that come true moments later right before my eyes. And so on. Being able to verify information that I had no way of knowing is a plus.
__________________
"Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo.

"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

Last edited by Limbo; 23rd November 2011 at 04:07 PM.
Limbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 04:18 PM   #153
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Second, I have received verifiable non-local information from God. For example, a series of dreams that came true in sequence. Or visions of the future that come true moments later right before my eyes. And so on. Being able to verify information that I had no way of knowing is a plus.
Information from a non existent being? I don't think so. And your knowledge of comparative religion is less than impressive, as you demonstrated during the discussion about Zen Buddhism and Taoism. Got any more campfire stories?
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2011, 10:50 PM   #154
Mr. Scott
Under the Amazing One's Wing
 
Mr. Scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,548
Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Valid questions, Mr Scott. Knowing is a problem.

My approach to solving that problem is two-fold. First, years of studying comparative mysticism, comparative religion, comparative mythology. That has enabled me to unlearn all the crud that pop-culture and orthodoxy shoves in our heads all our lives. Crud that still fills the heads of most religious and non-religious people. Once all that crud is unlearned, then true learning can begin. The comparative fields have allowed me to understand God in a way that few people do. I know what to look for, I understand the pattern of mystical development. That makes it hard for my brain or for Satan to mess with me.

Second, I have received verifiable non-local information from God. For example, a series of dreams that came true in sequence. Or visions of the future that come true moments later right before my eyes. And so on. Being able to verify information that I had no way of knowing is a plus.
I did the same thing -- for years studying comparative mysticism, comparative religion, comparative mythology, and it led me to skepticism and hard atheism.

My first hint was to see how my perceptions that I was foretelling the future were invalid. For example, I used to feel I could predict what card would come up next on a deck. After a card turned up, I had a feeling I predicted that card. However, if I said out loud to witnesses what the next card would be, I was never right. I think my brain has even once or twice concocted the memory of a dream after the event it supposedly predicted, since I could remember no thoughts of the dream until after the event, nor did I mention to anyone the dream before the event.

Understanding how your brain tricks you is an important step to enlightenment. If you want to really know spiritual truth, you have to eliminate all possibility that you've been deluded. If you don't do this, then your search is insincere. You are only out to confirm what you already believe.

Here's how you could be wrong about prophesies:

1) After an event you supposedly predicted, you involuntarily revise your memory of your prediction. (the antidote to this is to write down what you predict before the thing happens, and objectively evaluate hits versus misses).

2) The things you predicted were so likely to happen anyway, even if occasionally unlikely. E.g. "I had a dream the sun would come up, over a thin cloud, and it did, just as the dream predicted, so it was a God-given prophetic dream."

3) You cherry-pick predictions that come true and ignore predictions that don't.

So Limbo, I really advise you start your search again, using the additions to your skeptic toolbox you learn here. It would be a weak god that couldn't stand up to critical thinking.
Mr. Scott is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2011, 03:01 AM   #155
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Valid questions, Mr Scott. Knowing is a problem.

My approach to solving that problem is two-fold. First, years of studying comparative mysticism, comparative religion, comparative mythology. That has enabled me to unlearn all the crud that pop-culture and orthodoxy shoves in our heads all our lives. Crud that still fills the heads of most religious and non-religious people. Once all that crud is unlearned, then true learning can begin. The comparative fields have allowed me to understand God in a way that few people do. I know what to look for, I understand the pattern of mystical development. That makes it hard for my brain or for Satan to mess with me.

Second, I have received verifiable non-local information from God. For example, a series of dreams that came true in sequence. Or visions of the future that come true moments later right before my eyes. And so on. Being able to verify information that I had no way of knowing is a plus.
Modesty, that's what I like to see.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2011, 03:23 AM   #156
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E
Posts: 7,329
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Modesty, that's what I like to see.
Not good enough dafydd.

Either show that Limbo is just posting self aggrandizement or bow out of the debate.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2011, 04:15 AM   #157
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Not good enough dafydd.

Either show that Limbo is just posting self aggrandizement or bow out of the debate.
Yes boss. Right away guv'nor. Try reading what he wrote and all will be revealed.

Last edited by dafydd; 24th November 2011 at 04:17 AM.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2011, 05:16 AM   #158
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,743
Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Valid questions, Mr Scott. Knowing is a problem.

My approach to solving that problem is two-fold. First, years of studying comparative mysticism, comparative religion, comparative mythology. That has enabled me to unlearn all the crud that pop-culture and orthodoxy shoves in our heads all our lives. Crud that still fills the heads of most religious and non-religious people. Once all that crud is unlearned, then true learning can begin. The comparative fields have allowed me to understand God in a way that few people do. I know what to look for, I understand the pattern of mystical development. That makes it hard for my brain or for Satan to mess with me.

Second, I have received verifiable non-local information from God. For example, a series of dreams that came true in sequence. Or visions of the future that come true moments later right before my eyes. And so on. Being able to verify information that I had no way of knowing is a plus.
By learning you achieved unlearning?

I'm guessing you can't pass on any of that non-local information from God that might prove your statements
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2011, 05:22 AM   #159
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,743
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Not good enough dafydd.

Either show that Limbo is just posting self aggrandizement or bow out of the debate.
You see a debate? I see someone claiming to understand the universe better than anyone else but failing to understand how water boils.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2011, 05:33 AM   #160
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
 
pakeha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,333
Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Valid questions, Mr Scott. Knowing is a problem.

My approach to solving that problem is two-fold. First, years of studying comparative mysticism, comparative religion, comparative mythology. That has enabled me to unlearn all the crud that pop-culture and orthodoxy shoves in our heads all our lives. Crud that still fills the heads of most religious and non-religious people. Once all that crud is unlearned, then true learning can begin. The comparative fields have allowed me to understand God in a way that few people do. I know what to look for, I understand the pattern of mystical development. That makes it hard for my brain or for Satan to mess with me.

Second, I have received verifiable non-local information from God. For example, a series of dreams that came true in sequence. Or visions of the future that come true moments later right before my eyes. And so on. Being able to verify information that I had no way of knowing is a plus.
I've followed the discussion but this phrase really took me for a loop.
Satan?
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba

Last edited by pakeha; 24th November 2011 at 05:35 AM.
pakeha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:19 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.