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Old 20th December 2011, 03:07 AM   #1
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Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural

Will this thing ever go away?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...l-6279512.html
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Old 20th December 2011, 04:54 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by KuriousOrange View Post
Will this thing ever go away?

What thing?

If there's something you think is worth discussing at the link you provided, it's a good general practice to begin the discussion by summarizing what the article says and sharing some of your own thoughts on it.

I'm guessing from the thread title that "the thing" is belief in the shroud of Turin. But it would be nice to have some explanation of what in particular it is about the Shroud that has caught your interest.

I've tentatively tagged this thread Shroud of Turin. But so far there is no Shroud of Turin content in the thread. (Yes, there's a link; but links often expire.)

Here's an example of why simply posting a link, with no actual content, is a bad idea. Here's another. And there are plenty more where those came from.
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Old 20th December 2011, 05:44 AM   #3
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O.K, fair point, but what the thread contains isn't a complete mystery from the title, but yes, I should've supplied more information for the link. I was more interest in thge opinion of others than my own thoughts, but:

What caught my interest about this is the timing of the article and the origin of the study (Rome and just before Christmas). It also seems absolutely ridiculous that those doing the experiment have chosen a piece of technology that was obviously not available at the time of the alleged hoax, or at the time of Christ, and then after creating a "similar image" on an "equivalent linen material" have decided that the shroud was created by some supernatural force. This is more absurd considering a reproduction has already been achieved by using materials/technology/processes available to the forgers at the time (14th Century). I'm also curious about how biased the Italian "Government Scientists" who did the new replication might be.

My other thought was could a similar result have been achieved by exposure to sunlight?

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Old 20th December 2011, 09:03 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by KuriousOrange View Post
My other thought was could a similar result have been achieved by exposure to sunlight?
That's what I'm thinking. All they've done is to find a way to do it much more rapidly, but there is no evidence to show how long it took for the image on the Shroud to get there. There is no reason to think that it had to happen instantly. Who ever said that the hoaxer was working under time constraints?
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Old 20th December 2011, 09:35 AM   #5
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There's no way that image could have been transferred to the shroud from the body of a man wrapped in it, unless the man's body was 2-dimensional, it was laid on one half of the shroud, and then the other end was folded over the top of his 2-dimensional body.
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Old 20th December 2011, 09:43 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
There's no way that image could have been transferred to the shroud from the body of a man wrapped in it, unless the man's body was 2-dimensional, it was laid on one half of the shroud, and then the other end was folded over the top of his 2-dimensional body.

a 2 dimensional narrow faced renaissance style of painting, as the head is far too narrow to be within the range of real human dimensions
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Old 20th December 2011, 09:47 AM   #7
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Surely if J.C/whoever was wrapped in it, once the shroud was laid flat the image would look distorted? Of course, carbon dating has made that a moot point.

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Old 20th December 2011, 09:52 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by KuriousOrange View Post
Surely if J.C/whoever was wrapped in it, once the shroud was laid flat the image would look distorted? Of course, carbin dating has made that a moot point.

Yes, but it would be distorted in the opposite direction - it would look wider than normal because of the shroud wrapping around the sides of the head.
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Old 20th December 2011, 09:55 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by KuriousOrange View Post

It looks suspiciously like the "irreducible complexity" argument for ID - "we can't figure out how this happened, therefore Goddidit."
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Old 20th December 2011, 10:04 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
There's no way that image could have been transferred to the shroud from the body of a man wrapped in it, unless the man's body was 2-dimensional, it was laid on one half of the shroud, and then the other end was folded over the top of his 2-dimensional body.
Isn't there some paint on the shroud ?

Meh. Anyway, it's just the most succesful of the shrouds.
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Old 20th December 2011, 10:14 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Yes, but it would be distorted in the opposite direction - it would look wider than normal because of the shroud wrapping around the sides of the head.
That's what I meant by distorted. Sorry, i should've been clearer. The image on the shroud, although thin, i thought looked *too* normal.

Last edited by KuriousOrange; 20th December 2011 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 20th December 2011, 10:24 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/n...kan/shroud.jpg
a 2 dimensional narrow faced renaissance style of painting, as the head is far too narrow to be within the range of real human dimensions
Exactly, especially since, more than likely, Jeshuah looked like this:

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Old 20th December 2011, 11:37 AM   #13
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Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural

Italian government scientists have claimed to have discovered evidence that a supernatural event formed the image on the Turin Shroud, believed by many to be the burial cloth of Jesus Christ.

Mod WarningBreach of rule 4 removed. Do not copy and paste whole articles from elsewhere.
Posted By:Cuddles


.................................................. .................................................. .
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...l-6279512.html

And as a real sceptic, I accept what science says. Otherwise, I would not be consequent.
Science says: the supernatural exists. Scepticism against the supernatural is been busted as a myth by our scientists.

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Old 20th December 2011, 11:43 AM   #14
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I wish I could remember the show, but a man reproduced the effects using material available at the time of the shroud's first appearance in history. He used a powder and some sunlight, I can't remember how exactly, but the end result was exactly like the shroud. I'm at work but may some other google-fooers can find it. It's funny how when people reproduce the supposedly unreproducable they are often ignored. Like the man who demonstrated moving tons of blocks by himself, but people still believe the pyramids were beyond the abilities of the time.
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Old 20th December 2011, 11:46 AM   #15
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Euhm...we are talking about scientists here. They did research for several years.
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Old 20th December 2011, 11:47 AM   #16
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I would question the credentials of someone using their logic.

"We reproduced it this way, so that's the only way it could be produced." Nonsense.
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Old 20th December 2011, 11:52 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Euhm...we are talking about scientists here. They did research for several years.
Just having the title "scientist" does not mean they are right. "Scientists" also "proved" that John Edwards could really talk to the dead and that ancient aliens helped shaped the history of mankind. Don't you watch the History channel?
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Old 20th December 2011, 11:55 AM   #18
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No, I don't watch that history channel you are talking about here in Belgium. But, you may be right.
We will see. But sceptics must be consequent too. The scientific standard is always the norm or the criterium for scepticism about 'what's the truth' and what is false. Until some sceptics hear these scientists say something they don't like.

This is confirmation bias. You only accept evidence if you like it.

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Old 20th December 2011, 12:00 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
No, I don't watch that channel here in Flanders (Belgium). But, you may be right.
We will see. But sceptics must be consequent. The scientific communicty is always the norm, until they say something they don't like to here. It sounds like confirmation bias.
I would say reproducible results are the norm around here. When guys who have no degrees but move large objects for a living were asked how they would transport 2500 ton blocks using only known technology of ancient Egypt, they figured it out quickly enough. I trust that a lot more than historians who say "I can't imagine how it was done, so must have been something unknown!"
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:01 PM   #20
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The shroud was once reproduced during a SkeptiCamp workshop:
http://www.skepticamp.org/wiki/Skept...Vancouver_2009
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:06 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
There's no way that image could have been transferred to the shroud from the body of a man wrapped in it, unless the man's body was 2-dimensional, it was laid on one half of the shroud, and then the other end was folded over the top of his 2-dimensional body.
The 2-dimensional body could have been a wide board with the image painted on it. While the "paint" is still wet apply the linen wrap on top, just like printing a poster. There were some pretty crafty boys running around at that time. IMO

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Old 20th December 2011, 12:09 PM   #22
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"However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax"

Have these "Scientists" ruled out ancient astronauts yet?
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:11 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Yes, but it would be distorted in the opposite direction - it would look wider than normal because of the shroud wrapping around the sides of the head.
I would love to see a picture of how that would actually look......
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:11 PM   #24
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Utter nonsense!

The Turin Shroud is not supernatural as shown by the carbon-14 dating which shows that it was made at about the same time that it was first discovered.
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:13 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by wowbagger
I would say reproducible results are the norm around her
And how do you use that criterium in this case?
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:15 PM   #26
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That would explain the stains on my kids' white shirts! I better take away that high powered UV laser.

Also,
Quote:
Science says: the supernatural exists.
I don't think that has gone through the peer review process yet.
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:29 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by SphereGuy View Post
Just having the title "scientist" does not mean they are right. "Scientists" also "proved" that John Edwards could really talk to the dead and that ancient aliens helped shaped the history of mankind. Don't you watch the History channel?
Maybe there are two different 'sciences' at play?
One actually looks at and explains things and the other wears white coats...
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:30 PM   #28
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How old is the cloth? How old are the stains? If either is younger than 2ka, it doesn't matter how they were produced--it's still not Jesus' shroud.

You're trying to explain something before you prove that there's something to explain, which is utterly rediculous.
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:31 PM   #29
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I see a lot of confirmation bias here to just accept evidence from science, especially when you don't like it. A good sceptic will except evidence, especially when he or she want to believe something else. (not based on science, but personal believe/disbelieve). And later on, the idea can be falsified. And in that case, you just change your opinion. But till now: the evidence says: this is an anomaly.
Of course there are many questions, but you can write the experts in Italy. They are the only once who can answer you.

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Old 20th December 2011, 12:38 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I see a lot of confirmation bias here to just accept evidence from science, especially when you don't like it. A good sceptic will except evidence, especially when he or she want to believe something else. (not based on science, but personal believe/disbelieve). And later on, the idea can be falsified. And in that case, you just change your opinion. But till now: the evidence says: this is an anomaly.
Well, just do everyone concerned a favor and keep to the facts ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin

The first clear record of the Shroud of Turin was in 1390 where it was reported that the shroud was a fake and the artist who made it confessed that it was a fake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioca...hroud_of_Turin

Whereas radiocarbon dating puts the date of manufacture at 1260 to 1390.

Therefore, the Shroud of Turin is not of supernatural origins.
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:42 PM   #31
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It's not the evidence we reject--I'm sure they did in fact produce an image the way they say they did. It's the INTERPRETATION that we reject, because they don't have sufficient data to support such a conclusion. It's diagnostic of crackpots that they are incapable of differentiating between the two. For me, the key is the age--if it's not all 2ka, it DOES NOT MATTER how the image was formed, the conclusion is still wrong. Step 1 is proving that there's something to discuss, and that has not yet been achieved.
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:45 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by SphereGuy View Post
I wish I could remember the show, but a man reproduced the effects using material available at the time of the shroud's first appearance in history. He used a powder and some sunlight, I can't remember how exactly, but the end result was exactly like the shroud. I'm at work but may some other google-fooers can find it. It's funny how when people reproduce the supposedly unreproducable they are often ignored. Like the man who demonstrated moving tons of blocks by himself, but people still believe the pyramids were beyond the abilities of the time.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...-da-Vinci.html

Is this what you're talking about?
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:46 PM   #33
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Not only that, but look at where the fold occurs at the top of the head. There are clearly two separate "heads": one view of the front of the head, and another view of the back. There's no wraparound "view" providing a perspective of the top of the head at all.



Anyone who's ever made a skin for a 3D videogame character will immediately recognize the problem with this.


Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
I would love to see a picture of how that would actually look......

This partial skin map for a 3D character's head might give you some idea:



(That's a skin for a 3D model of the comic book character "The Punisher," BTW)
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:50 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Mark6 View Post
I would say reproducible results are the norm around here. When guys who have no degrees but move large objects for a living were asked how they would transport 2500 ton blocks using only known technology of ancient Egypt, they figured it out quickly enough. I trust that a lot more than historians who say "I can't imagine how it was done, so must have been something unknown!"
Exactly. I've read books where scientists have declared that such large blocks need massive cranes to move around today. They didn't have massive cranes then, so aliens didit.
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:53 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
No, I don't watch that history channel you are talking about here in Belgium. But, you may be right.
We will see. But sceptics must be consequent too. The scientific standard is always the norm or the criterium for scepticism about 'what's the truth' and what is false. Until some sceptics hear these scientists say something they don't like.

This is confirmation bias. You only accept evidence if you like it.
You are the one swallowing confirmation bias.

What they proved is that you can reproduce the image by using UV light. That's all.

They did not prove that is the only way to produce the image.
They did not prove that it is the way the image on the Shroud of Turin was originally created.
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Old 20th December 2011, 12:57 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
And as a real sceptic, I accept what science says. Otherwise, I would not be consequent.
Science says: the supernatural exists. Scepticism against the supernatural is been busted as a myth by our scientists.
So, you believe in cold fusion because some scientists said they discovered it?

And this scientist: http://articles.cnn.com/2009-10-07/w...et?_s=PM:WORLD
is quoted in the same article saying that the scientists who make the supernatural claims are wrong. Which scientists do you believe and why?

Ward
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:03 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Euhm...we are talking about scientists here. They did research for several years.
Being a "scientist" even one noted in their field, does not absolve them of personal biases and beliefs in the interpretation of selected results.

Dr. Paolo Di Lazzaro has been making these same claims for several years now. Quoting the Pope at the conclusion of this earlier paper does not bode well for a lack of biases in the research represented.

"A Physical Hypothesis on the Origin of the Body Image Embedded into the Turin Shroud" - http://ohioshroudconference.com/papers/p01.pdf

"Deep Ultraviolet Radiation Simulates the Turin Shroud Image" - http://jist.imaging.org/resource/1/j...sAuthorized=no

To be fair, I am not aware of Dr. Lazzaro publically pushing any "supernatural" agency in regards to this shroud investigation, and seems to be stating primarily that the use of lasers provides one means to duplicate some aspects of the shroud image, which is very different that saying that the shroud image was definitively created by high intensity deep UV bursts.
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Trakar
"By doubting we come to inquiry, and through inquiry we perceive truth." — Peter Abelard
"My civilization can do anything!" - David Brin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i275AvgVvow)
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:05 PM   #38
KuriousOrange
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
It looks suspiciously like the "irreducible complexity" argument for ID - "we can't figure out how this happened, therefore Goddidit."
Skydaddy is good at hiding in the shadowy areas of human knowledge. He must be giggling like a schoolgirl playing hide & seek.
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:12 PM   #39
foosnut
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All you have to do is lie on your back and try to duplicate the pose to see that it is either a fake or Jesus was really weirdly built.

Go ahead try it, cover your naughty bits while keeping your shoulders on the ground and arms bent.

I'll wait...
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:19 PM   #40
Hubert Cumberdale
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post

http://lh4.ggpht.com/-4WpqXBOECx0/S1...700/finren.jpg

(That's a skin for a 3D model of the comic book character "The Punisher," BTW)
That's what I wanted to see! Thanks JA.
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