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#8001 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,292
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Um, they looked at it. I challenge Jabba or anyone to look closely at any fabric that has been repaired using any method (including using threads from the original cloth, although Jabba rules that out as a possibility for affecting the dating) and NOT be able to detect the repair. I've seen absolutely miraculous repairs to garments. You'd never suspect the damage that had been fixed, until you look closely.
The methods, the materials, the different ages, they would all be visible to even a layman making a close examination. Add in the fact that they were experts using varying light sources and magnification---there's just no way. Ward |
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~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~ - Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347 |
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#8002 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,230
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Summary of the science and those objecting or approving to the science.
In case Jabba missed reading these facts somehow.
Quote:
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#8003 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: High above Indianapolis
Posts: 1,867
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The way the experts found no repairs is that they went to university, learned enough about their field of research to earn scholarly degrees by being tested by other learned scholars, went to work in institutions that had need of their knowledge and skills, gained more knowledge and experience as their careers advanced, and eventually became well-enough respected in their fields to be asked by the Vatican to have a look-see at the Shroud of Turin and formally present their findings of their examinations.
I realize this is an appeal to authority, but what logical options are available? |
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Congratulations, you have successfully failed to model something that you assert "isn't noticeable". -The Man Science is not hopelessly hobbled just because it knows the difference between fact and imagination. -JayUtah |
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#8004 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
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[quote=Jabba;9326124...2) no one was looking for that sort of thing -- they were basically looking for "patches," rather than "patching" (reweaving), FL would have dismissed any frontal suggestions of patching based upon the fact that there were no obvious indications of patching on the back, and she probably would have encouraged the others to do the same. ...[/QUOTE]
Do you have some reason to think FL was so incompetent and unprofessional? I'm interested in knowing why you imagine a repair can be invisible. |
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#8005 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,349
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#8006 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
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#8007 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
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Mr. Savage:
Multiple experts examined the cloth, with naked eyes and under various magnfication. They took pictures of the cloth in multiple light sources. They looked at, and through, the cloth from both sides. The best reweaving possible (the so-called "french reweave"), is still visible when held up to the light...and, of course, cannot change the date of the cloth because it is performed with original threads from the cloth itself... Are you going to continue your libel that they missed the "invisible reweaving" because they wanted not to find it? |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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#8008 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,508
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#8009 |
post-pre-born
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,139
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This is an important point. If an invisible patch is possible it must have been demonstrated elsewhere. You can't get by just saying it is possible - you have to show it. After all, if such a technique existed, it would not have been used just once in all of history.
Your claim, your burden. Where has this invisible patching been demonstrated? /relurk |
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#8010 |
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 6,528
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After seeing the pictures of some samples a few posts back, I was thinking it would be instructive to see photographs of an "invisible" re-weave. From both sides, with the light falling on it and the light shining through it.
If there's anything like that out there in the net, it would go a long way to seeing how well Jabba's re-weaving claims hold up to scrutiny. (Aside from the fact we can find no documentation of any such reweaving, nor any indication of why such a labour-intensive repair would be done on an insignificant part of the cloth.) |
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The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum. |
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#8011 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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#8012 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,448
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Evidence?
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You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis |
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#8013 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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Am not sure whether your comment was addressed to this site newbie or not, Filippo. If it was, then a word of friendly advice. Next time you go in for a blogger's MOT, tell them to check out the sensitivity setting on your irony detector ... ;-)
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#8014 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,508
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This isn't a blog.
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#8015 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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#8016 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,508
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It's 'members'. Discussion boards have 'members'.
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#8017 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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#8018 |
post-pre-born
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,139
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#8019 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,508
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#8020 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,508
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#8021 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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Apols. UK term for the official annual check on brakes, lights, exhaust, suspension, etc. needed if one's vehicle is more than 2 years old, as in: "It's going in for its MOT". I shall try to avoid relapsing into local slang in future. Clearly my maiden comments have not been "spot on" thus far, and one can but hope you've been able to "suss out" my meaning. Oops. there I go again...
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#8022 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Montgomery Co., PA
Posts: 201
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I had the same thought, and did some searches, but best I've been able to find so far are these images from http://clothingrepairpittsburgh.com/.
Before: http://clothingrepairpittsburgh.com/.../pic2large.jpg After: http://clothingrepairpittsburgh.com/.../pic1large.jpg That's a large tear so I'm guessing that's the inweaving technique as opposed to French reweaving, but the distortion around the edges may be comparable to what you'd see with the former. I know from knitting that any time you change yarn, you need some overlap to hold the new in place. There are ways to make the join more subtle, but it's always visible if you look closely. It makes sense to me that the same would be true for weaving. I don't have any first hand knowledge of that, though, and all I know about it is what I read briefly while looking for images. |
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#8023 |
Winking at the Moon
Deputy Admin
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 14,163
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Thank you for finding those, Tomboy. (Welcome to the forum, btw). The edges of the repaired area are clearly visible, and would be even if the repairer had managed to duplicate the exact weave pattern of the fabric.
I'm sure Jabba will be along presently to |
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Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader |
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#8024 |
Muse
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 506
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A couple more interesting sites:
http://www.invisiblemending.co.uk/index.asp and http://tomofholland.com/2012/01/07/t...-tweed-jacket/ and http://www.stoppage-art.com/metier.html and the video at http://www.withoutatrace.com/reweaving.html |
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#8025 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
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"...near perfect repairs as humanly possible..."
"...the trailing ends of the threads are carefully removed..." And, as has been stated in this thread before, the interstices between the standing threads and the rewoven threads will be visible. Th repair is biased toward the right side of the fabric; notice that the wrong side is not shown in the demo. On a lined sleeve, the wrong side of the fabric would never be seen, nor would the fabric be observed with light shining through it. I would like to see the wrong side of the fabric. As has been said before, the areas where the loose ends of the added threads have been trimmed and ironed in will show up on the obverse, particularly if lit from behind. ...same set of objections. Also,it is important to point out that these three sites are all using original threads from the original cloth. None of them would change the 14C date of the original cloth, because they are the original cloth. None of them consist of 40% or more new material. |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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#8026 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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What I have always found curious, Hugh, is why something so up-market as a herring bone twill should be used as a burial shroud, especially one that was apparently not washed free of "messy" disfiguring blood prior to interment. What makes it even more curious is that the herringbone weave is on the image-side of the linen, i.e. the side that would be out of view to the bereaved paying their last respects once the shroud was sewn up. (The opposite side of the Shroud's linen is not an attractive twill, but looks more like a simpler 2-over-1, at least in Jull's photographs, and is fully consistent with the reverse side of a recently modelled 3-over-1 twill -apols for the absence of links).
It's almost as if the Shroud had been intended from the word go as a display item - to be exhibited with image-imprint on the more attractive outside. Why a 3-over-1 twill, made with fine threads? Why not something closer to a plain 1-over-1? Could it be that a medieval craftsman had been wanting to use linen as a kind of artist's canvas, one that would take a detailed impression, but who realized that a herring-bone weave presented a much flatter image-receptive surface, given that a 3-over-1 ioffers a more consistently plane surface than a "knobbly" 1-over-1 with lots of warp/weft hair-pin bends? Just a thought... |
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#8027 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,508
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#8028 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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Hello again Abaddon. The reason for not inserting external URL links (which take my word I have to hand) is that the site's advice notes that accompany registration state they will not be accepted until a newbie has posted a certain number of comments, 15 as I recall - an anti-spam precaution. This is comment no.7 - near the halfway mark for trustie status. Bear with me.
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#8029 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 31,460
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#8030 |
Winking at the Moon
Deputy Admin
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 14,163
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That is why abaddon advised you to post them broken, so that non-newbies will post the correct link. If you posted a broken link to www dot refermywebsiteforcash dot com, rest assured we won't fix it but report it instead. Links that are germane to the conversation are fine for newbies to post, broken as explained.
ETA: Welcome to the forum. |
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Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader |
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#8031 |
Muse
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 506
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Herringbone, or plain twill for that matter, is weird stuff. It ought to look much the same on both sides, only with the weft threads prominent on one side and the warp threads prominent on the other. What actually happens, as you said, and as the Schwortz photos show (and a quick look at a modern twill will confirm) is that one side looks ribbed and fairly clearly 3-1, and the other looks much flatter and more like 1-1. Only by pulling a thread out can you see that the 1-1 is an illusion. I dare say the ribbed side was an obviously more expensive side to look at, but for flatness for painting, the other side looks more even to me. Check the Schwortz photos.
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#8032 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,508
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#8033 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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I did as suggested, substituting dot for "." and still got the message - "no URLs just yet"! And I lost my comment! (Should have saved). I'll see if I can post the link in fragments, separated by lots of "notspam", and see if it appears. Explanation will have to wait (fatigue/profound sense of loss etc)
(notspam) http (notspam) ://(notspam) shroudstory (dot) notspamcom/2011/01/10/more-on-was-the-sample-used-in-the-jull-paper-not-from-the-shroud-of-turin/ |
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#8034 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,508
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And voila:
http://shroudstory.com/2011/01/10/mo...roud-of-turin/ It was the
Quote:
Quote:
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#8035 |
Winking at the Moon
Deputy Admin
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 14,163
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Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader |
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#8036 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,508
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#8037 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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#8038 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,508
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OK read it.
Looks to me as though Dan, despite being a believer in authenticity, is happy to admit that the 3 over one weaving is a total non-issue. I may not agree with him about the authenticity of the shroud, but I do like his honesty on this. Evidence presented, issue removed from the table. Bravo. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#8039 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,508
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#8040 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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I've only just caught up with Dawkins on those meme thingys. Now I have to cope with 'parody memes'. Life's simply not fair on us gnubies.
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