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Tags Chuck Baldwin , constitution party , Don Black , James Rawles , Jamie Kelso , ron paul , white supremacists

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Old 25th January 2012, 09:05 PM   #1
varwoche
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Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin and Christopia

In 2008, after losing the GOP nomination, Ron Paul formally endorsed Pastor Chuck Baldwin, Constitution Party for POTUS.

Baldwin is part of a Christian separatist movement that intends to establish numbers in several northwest states (Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, eastern WA, eastern OR) called The American Redoubt. It's like the New Hampshire Free State Project but oriented for survivalist Christians.

Here is Baldwin going on about best selling(!?) author James Wesley Rawles who conceived The American Redoubt. (His novel reads like one of those bad fiction contests. )

And here is Rawles discussing his vision for Christopia:
Originally Posted by Rawles
The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
I concur that Pastor Chuck Baldwin was right when he "voted with his feet" and moved his family from Florida to Montana. Like Chuck Baldwin I believe that is time for freedom-loving Christians to relocate to something analogous to "Galt's Gulch" on a grand scale.
...
Christians of all races are welcome to be my neighbors. I also welcome Orthodox Jews and Messianic Jews, because we share the same moral framework.
...
I am a separatist
...
it will be a Biblically-sound and Constitutionally-sound silver local currency that will give it unity.
This isn't some vague association. Pastor Chuck, Christian separatist, was Ron Paul's goddamn choice for POTUS.

The purpose of this thread is to document the facts of these relationships, not debate libertarian philosophy.
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Old 25th January 2012, 09:13 PM   #2
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Actually, the intersection of Christian theocracy and libertarianism has always been fascinating to me. Clearly, one needs to take some choice bites out of his libertarian purity in order to oppose abortion rights, for instance, or support bible-themed govt -- both of which Ron Paul has done.
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Old 26th January 2012, 12:01 AM   #3
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Isn't "Biblically-sound and Constitutionally-sound" a contradictio in terminis?

(Or is he not referring to the US constitution?)
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Old 26th January 2012, 12:04 AM   #4
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Yup. No surprise here.

Have you heard about this strange episode?

Ron Paul Was Implicated In Failed White Supremacist Island Invasion

Quote:
In 1981, a lawyer tried to subpoena Ron Paul to testify in the trial of Don Black, a Grand Wizard for the Ku Klux Klan who would later go on to found the white supremacist, neo-Nazi website, Stormfront. Black was charged along with two other Klansmen with planning to violently overthrow the small Caribbean country of Dominica in what they called “Operation Red Dog.” While a judge refused to subpoena Paul, Don Black would come back to haunt him many years later.

In 1981 a group of American and Canadian white supremacists lead by Klansman and mercenary, Michael (Mike) Perdue planned on taking over a small West Indian country called Dominica by overthrowing the government and Prime Minister Eugenia Charles and restoring its previous prime minister, Patrick Johns into power. The group planned to create an Aryan paradise in Dominica and make money through casinos, cocaine and brothels.

On the day the group of white supremacists were supposed to travel to Dominica, they were arrested by ATF agents and were found with over thirty automatic weapons, shotguns, rifles, handguns, dynamite, ammunition, a confederate flag and a Nazi flag. The plan would be dubbed “The Bayou Of Pigs” after the failed invasion of Cuba.

The leader of the group, Michael Perdue, would plead guilty to planning the coup and turned state’s evidence. Perdue would testify that several other people helped organize and fund the coup and that two Texas politicians were aware of the plan. Among those Perdue implicated were infamous white supremacist, David Duke, former Texas Governor, John Connally and Congressman, Ron Paul whom he claimed knew about the plot. Connally was credited with helping Paul win his first congressional election.

A judge refused to subpoena Paul and Connally despite the fact that Perdue had claimed that both of them were aware of the plot. Don Black’s friend and fellow KKK Grand Wizard, David Duke was called to testify before a grand jury but claimed that he would take the Fifth Amendment and never testified. While Duke was never charged with a crime, several books points to Duke as the organizer who connected Perdue to the other mercenary Klansmen and the people who funded their endeavor. (1 2 3) Everyone else implicated by Perdue was charged with the plot.
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Old 26th January 2012, 12:57 AM   #5
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Does anyone else find the idea of a Christian Galt's Gulch both hilarious and fascinating?
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Old 26th January 2012, 01:19 AM   #6
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I read the OP, then some more, and thought I was hallucinating. Looked around to make sure I was still in reality, yep.

How much more weird does this all get?
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Old 26th January 2012, 03:20 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Does anyone else find the idea of a Christian Galt's Gulch both hilarious and fascinating?
Actually, having read "The Turner Diaries," I find it horrifying.

The actual, as opposed to stated goals, is to recruit an army of useful idiots for the RaHoWa.
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Old 26th January 2012, 05:38 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Actually, having read "The Turner Diaries," I find it horrifying.

The actual, as opposed to stated goals, is to recruit an army of useful idiots for the RaHoWa.
In order to recruit this army of Holy Aryan Bible Thumpers, they´ll have to remove them from wherever else they are... good for those other places, I say.

Once that is done, place a nice, electrified fence, land mines etc etc along the border - from the US and Canada sides - to make sure none of them escapes, and wait for Nazitopia to implode.

Because, seriously, what do you think will happen if the Herrenmenschen realize that they now have to haul off their own trash, clean their own septic tanks and do all the other dirty work? Galt´s Gulch is no fun at all in a reality without a magical horn-of-plenty machine that relieves you of the need to work for your living.
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Old 26th January 2012, 08:19 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Pastor Chuck, Christian separatist, was Ron Paul's goddamn choice for POTUS.

Soooou? Mickey Mouse would have been a better choice than the rest of the pack in 2008. Oh, and this election cycle it doesn't look any better.
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Old 26th January 2012, 08:35 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Soooou? Mickey Mouse would have been a better choice than the rest of the pack in 2008. Oh, and this election cycle it doesn't look any better.
So, if Mickey Mouse would have been a better choice... why did "Dr. Paul" go out of his way to pick somebody who was a worse choice? Why not pick Mickey Mouse? Or for that matter, why not grab a random guy off the street and endorse him instead of a white supremacist Christian fundie separatist?
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Old 26th January 2012, 08:50 AM   #11
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What exactly is Biblically sound currency? I seem to remember some minor character saying something about "rendering unto Caesar". Probably way in the back. I always figured that meant don't worry about economic matters like that.
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Old 26th January 2012, 08:52 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Soooou? Mickey Mouse would have been a better choice than the rest of the pack in 2008. Oh, and this election cycle it doesn't look any better.
A White Christian Separatist who wants to relocate all the white people to the mountains is a better choice than Barack Obama or John McCain?

You're sticking with that answer?
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Old 26th January 2012, 09:18 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
What exactly is Biblically sound currency? I seem to remember some minor character saying something about "rendering unto Caesar". Probably way in the back. I always figured that meant don't worry about economic matters like that.
It doesn't mean "don't worry about economic matters." It's more like "don't mix church and state." As a Roman subject, let Caesar rule you on the earthly matters, and God will take care of the heavenly stuff.
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Old 26th January 2012, 09:33 AM   #14
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Still doesn't explain what is Biblically sound currency. In fact, it seems to be an axymoron.
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Old 26th January 2012, 09:38 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Baldwin is part of a Christian separatist movement that intends to establish numbers in several northwest states (Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, eastern WA, eastern OR) called The American Redoubt. It's like the New Hampshire Free State Project but oriented for survivalist Christians.
That reminds me of the Western Semi-Autonomous Zone from the miniseries Amerika. Rumor had it that there was a resistance there, presumably why it was "semi-autonomous".

I guess Baldwin and company think they are living in a bad political fiction story.


Has anyone here read the Constitution Party's platform? I read one version of it several years ago. They're pretty far out there.


Originally Posted by hgc View Post
Actually, the intersection of Christian theocracy and libertarianism has always been fascinating to me. Clearly, one needs to take some choice bites out of his libertarian purity in order to oppose abortion rights, for instance, or support bible-themed govt -- both of which Ron Paul has done.
I don't think "libertarianism" is anything but cover for Paul. Rather, I believe that the term "paleo-conservative" is a more apt description, with a healthy dose of right-wing populism thrown in. Seen in that light, Paul's views appear internally consistent rather than filled with exceptions.
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Old 26th January 2012, 09:48 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
A White Christian Separatist who wants to relocate all the white people to the mountains is a better choice than Barack Obama or John McCain?

You're sticking with that answer?

Endorsing someone who doesn't have a *********** chance no matter who it is, was better than endorsing Obama or McCain in 2008, yep.

See what I mean?
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Old 26th January 2012, 10:05 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Endorsing someone who doesn't have a *********** chance no matter who it is, was better than endorsing Obama or McCain in 2008, yep.

See what I mean?
Normally, when you endorse someone, you´re saying "This is the guy I´d like to win the election", and not "It doesn´t matter what the **** I do so I´ll just pretend to support a white supremacist fundamentalist nutcase who wants to tear the US apart".

Is - to use the most charitable interpretation - throwing a temper tantrum and acting like a raving lunatic whenever you don´t get what you want a quality you are looking for in a head of state?
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Old 26th January 2012, 10:55 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Endorsing someone who doesn't have a *********** chance no matter who it is, was better than endorsing Obama or McCain in 2008, yep.

See what I mean?
If he's really a libertarian, why not endorse, you know, the Libertarian candidate?
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Old 26th January 2012, 12:00 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
What exactly is Bibilcally sound currency? I seem to remember some minor character saying something about "rendering unto Caesar".
Oooh. Now I want to find a Christan Separatist message board and start a thread advocating using silver coins with Caesar's image on them. If it was good enough for Jesus, then it should be good enough for us!
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Old 26th January 2012, 12:13 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Endorsing someone who doesn't have a *********** chance no matter who it is, was better than endorsing Obama or McCain in 2008, yep.

See what I mean?
Someone who endorses fascist separatists and has a strong backing by the neo-Nazi community is not a candidate I want in office. Not even for dogcatcher*.

* Actually, I'd say especially not for dogcatcher, as I don't want that SOB anywhere near gas chambers...
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Old 26th January 2012, 12:15 PM   #21
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They'd debate over if it should be Julius Augustus etc etc
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Old 26th January 2012, 01:14 PM   #22
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Also, reading the Constitution Party's official platform, I noticed a few glaring double standards. One of my personal favorites is that while they want to end all foreign aid and pull back all military force, they want to keep the Panama Canal.
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Old 26th January 2012, 02:10 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
Normally, when you endorse someone, you´re saying "This is the guy I´d like to win the election", and not "It doesn´t matter what the **** I do so I´ll just pretend to support a white supremacist fundamentalist nutcase who wants to tear the US apart".

Is - to use the most charitable interpretation - throwing a temper tantrum and acting like a raving lunatic whenever you don´t get what you want a quality you are looking for in a head of state?
Endorsing a candidate that seems to be in favor of huge crimes against humanity as part of a temper tantrum does not speak well of him.
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Old 27th January 2012, 09:32 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Endorsing someone who doesn't have a *********** chance no matter who it is, was better than endorsing Obama or McCain in 2008, yep.

See what I mean?
Nope. Totally DONT see what you mean.

Your preferred method of escaping culpability for any actions by the mainstream candidate that gets elected is: "Hey dont blame me, I supported the crazy white supremacist loving, lets go back to the gold standard, Christian, anti womens rights, civil rights were probably a mistake guy!"

Thats your preferred stance?

ETA: Given your 'logic' would you have supported David Duke over Obama or McCain if he had been running instead of Paul? Even if they dont have a chance of winning that doesnt change the fact you are supporting them and by proxy their views.
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Old 27th January 2012, 09:25 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Endorsing someone who doesn't have a *********** chance no matter who it is, was better than endorsing Obama or McCain in 2008, yep.

See what I mean?
Massive fail, Oliver.

No, I don't see what you mean. If you choose someone without a rat's ass chance of winning, like writing in Mickey Mouse, that's a protest vote. If you choose to support a bigoted miscreant, that's not a protest vote. That's a statement. It says, "I support a bigoted miscreant". Ronulans have trouble seeing things that are right in front of them. How many more repulsive acts are you going to hand-wave away before you admit that your voice of the people is a fraud.
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Old 27th January 2012, 10:10 PM   #26
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Wolf Blitzer? Diane Sawyer? Brian Williams? Anyone want to ask Dr. Paul about this? I mean there's only been, what, 74 debates so far and I don't think it's been mentioned once.

The media isn't liberal, it's incompetent.
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Old 27th January 2012, 11:47 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
bla bla bla... was Ron Paul's goddamn choice for POTUS.
Was it a GODDAMN choice according to YOU or a GODDAMN choice according to Ron Paul?
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Old 28th January 2012, 08:00 AM   #28
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Here is Rawles' reasoning behind the borders of The American Redoubt. The inclusion of eastern OR/WA seems rather whimsical.

Utah (out): desert climate makes it unsuitable to feed its current population, much less one swelled by in-migration
Dakatoas (out): I have my doubts about how defendable they would be if ever came down to fight. Plains and steppes are tanker country. It is no coincidence that the armies of the world usually choose plains for their maneuver areas, for large scale war games.
Colorado (out): A few large cities call the political shots, and they have been assimilated by ex-Californians.
Eastern OR/WA (in): The population densities are suitably low, and the populace is overwhelmingly conservative, but the folks there are still at mercy of the more populous regions west of the Cascades, that dictate their state politics. But who is to say that their eastern counties won't someday secede?
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Old 28th January 2012, 08:40 AM   #29
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Imagine a POTUS who abhors cities.

This from Baldwin's article published on VDARE*, a white nationalist website:
Originally Posted by Pastor Chuck Baldwin
Chicago is why the people in Illinois are losing their liberties; Baltimore is why the people in Maryland are losing their liberties; Atlanta is why the people in Georgia are losing their liberties; St. Louis and Kansas City are why the people in Missouri are losing their liberties; Dallas and Houston are why the people in Texas are losing their liberties; Los Angeles and San Francisco are why the people of California are losing their liberties; Portland is why the people of Oregon are losing their liberties; Seattle is why the people of Washington State are losing their liberties; Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, and Orlando are why the people of Florida are losing their liberties; Birmingham is why the people of Alabama are losing their liberties
*VDARE is named after Virginia Dare, supposedly the first white person born in the new world.
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Old 28th January 2012, 08:54 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by dc1971 View Post
Was it a GODDAMN choice according to YOU or a GODDAMN choice according to Ron Paul?
It was a goddamn adjective, DC1971, not a goddamn theological treatise.
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Old 28th January 2012, 09:19 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Soooou? Mickey Mouse would have been a better choice than the rest of the pack in 2008. Oh, and this election cycle it doesn't look any better.
Mickey Mouse is a better choice than Ron Paul's pick. Or even Ron Paul for that matter.
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Old 28th January 2012, 09:58 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Mickey Mouse is a better choice than Ron Paul's pick. Or even Ron Paul for that matter.
Yeah, people forget that Mickey is not that wishy-washy creepy character that they created for the TV show, but was actually quite the scamp, originally. If I was a conservative (damn, I nearly got palsy typing that!), I think I could get behind Mickey as a candidate.
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Old 28th January 2012, 10:25 AM   #33
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Pastor Chuck is a featured writer at nowtheendbegins.com.

Breakup Of United States Is Now Inevitable

Given that End of Days is upon us, I for one say ho-hum to geo-political turmoil.

Look at the images of Obama, shown with Mao, Lenin and is that Marx on the left? The second image is pretty funny too.

Originally Posted by Ron Paul, 2008
I’m supporting Chuck Baldwin, the Constitution Party candidate.
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Old 28th January 2012, 12:16 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Pastor Chuck is a featured writer at nowtheendbegins.com.

Breakup Of United States Is Now Inevitable

Given that End of Days is upon us, I for one say ho-hum to geo-political turmoil.

Look at the images of Obama, shown with Mao, Lenin and is that Marx on the left? The second image is pretty funny too.
I believe that's the cuddly Georgian (no, not Jimmy Carter) over on the left - Josef Stalin.
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Old 28th January 2012, 01:44 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Endorsing someone who doesn't have a *********** chance no matter who it is, was better than endorsing Obama or McCain in 2008, yep.

See what I mean?
Yes. Yes I do see. I now see what kind of person would, for any reason, actually vote for that piece of human excrement. Thank you for clarifying that picture.
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Old 28th January 2012, 01:47 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Pastor Chuck is a featured writer at nowtheendbegins.com.

Breakup Of United States Is Now Inevitable

Given that End of Days is upon us, I for one say ho-hum to geo-political turmoil.

Look at the images of Obama, shown with Mao, Lenin and is that Marx on the left? The second image is pretty funny too.
Originally Posted by Ron Paul, 2008
I’m supporting Chuck Baldwin, the Constitution Party candidate.
Maybe Ron didn't actually read the platform. You know he's quite famous for signing his name to things he hasn't read.
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Old 28th January 2012, 02:30 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Here is Rawles' reasoning behind the borders of The American Redoubt. The inclusion of eastern OR/WA seems rather whimsical.

Utah (out): desert climate makes it unsuitable to feed its current population, much less one swelled by in-migration
Dakatoas (out): I have my doubts about how defendable they would be if ever came down to fight. Plains and steppes are tanker country. It is no coincidence that the armies of the world usually choose plains for their maneuver areas, for large scale war games.
Colorado (out): A few large cities call the political shots, and they have been assimilated by ex-Californians.
Eastern OR/WA (in): The population densities are suitably low, and the populace is overwhelmingly conservative, but the folks there are still at mercy of the more populous regions west of the Cascades, that dictate their state politics. But who is to say that their eastern counties won't someday secede?
Californians are the Borg. Resistance is futile bitches!
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Old 28th January 2012, 10:44 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Here is Rawles' reasoning behind the borders of The American Redoubt.

Well, at least he's not reaching beyond the 49th parallel. (Not on that map at any rate.)
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Old 29th January 2012, 09:58 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Firestone View Post
Isn't "Biblically-sound and Constitutionally-sound" a contradictio in terminis?

(Or is he not referring to the US constitution?)
No they just read the constitution like they do the bible, it is all the word of god, you just have to ignore the sections that are wrong in both.
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Old 29th January 2012, 10:09 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No they just read the constitution like they do the bible, it is all the word of god, you just have to ignore the sections that are wrong in both.
Sad, but probably true.
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