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Jesus and divorce

Almo

Masterblazer
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
6,846
Location
Montreal, Quebec
I want to write to a divorced woman on my Facebook list and say, "Jesus is wrong about you. Matthew 5:32."

Clearly, I should not and will not do any such thing. It just bothers me how people can be religious, yet ignore the bits of their religion that don't do them justice. She doesn't deserve to be villified as an adulterer.

Though it ocurrs to me I don't know the reason for the divorce, and it might fall into the escape clause, which is if the divorce is predicated on an infidelity.

Any Bible literalist who is divorced without proof of infidelity is a hypocrite. That's my reading of Matthew 5:32 anyway. Jesus gets asked later if he actually said that, and he repeats it.
 
Hey, if Jesus' Mom didn't get a big ole D-I-V-O-R-C-E, that should be good enough for anyone else.
 
Hey, if Jesus' Mom didn't get a big ole D-I-V-O-R-C-E, that should be good enough for anyone else.

My son has an interesting hypothesis about Mary. He believes Mary cheated on Joseph and then Joe made up the whole bit about the holy spirit to save face. Of course, Joe didn't want to touch her again, so she remained "virgin" for the rest of her days.
 
My son has an interesting hypothesis about Mary. He believes Mary cheated on Joseph and then Joe made up the whole bit about the holy spirit to save face. Of course, Joe didn't want to touch her again, so she remained "virgin" for the rest of her days.
My father has the same idea. Mary was a slut, and her family decided child was from "Holy spirit". Much like incubus fiction in Middle Ages.
 
My son has an interesting hypothesis about Mary. He believes Mary cheated on Joseph and then Joe made up the whole bit about the holy spirit to save face. Of course, Joe didn't want to touch her again, so she remained "virgin" for the rest of her days.

Didn't they go on to have a whole bunch of kids?

Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
 
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Didn't they go on to have a whole bunch of kids?

Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

If you go to the parallel verse in Mark, on which Matthew was based, it says (Mk. 6:3):

Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon and are not his sisters here with us? And they took offense at him.

So, if Jesus only had two sisters, that would give Mary seven kids. The oddity about this verse is that usually a man would be referred to as the son whoever his father was - hence Matthew's adroit change of makig Jesus the carpenter's son, rather than the carpenter. This might imply that Mary had a bunch of kids out of wedlock. This would fit the incredulity of the townsfolk at Jesus daring to teach.

ETA: The original prohibition against divorce in Mark was even more stringent than that in Matthew (Mk. 10:11, 12):

And he said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her.And if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

So, Matthew altered what Mark originally wrote, first by correcting Mark's failure to understand Jewish law, which allowed husbands to divorce their wives but not wives to divorce their husbands. Second, Matthew added the out involving "unchastity."

Of course, if the husband isn't cheating on his wife, but uses her for a punching bag to vent his frustrations, she still, according to Matthew's stricture, couldn't divorce him.
 
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If you go to the parallel verse in Mark, on which Matthew was based, it says (Mk. 6:3):

Originally read this as "If you go to the parallel universe". Actually, that might make the whole Jesus thing more believable.
 
Would be interesting to find out how many girls on Mary's street (or in those times in general) got knocked up by a holy spirit.
 
I want to write to a divorced woman on my Facebook list and say, "Jesus is wrong about you. Matthew 5:32."

Clearly, I should not and will not do any such thing. It just bothers me how people can be religious, yet ignore the bits of their religion that don't do them justice. She doesn't deserve to be villified as an adulterer.

Though it ocurrs to me I don't know the reason for the divorce, and it might fall into the escape clause, which is if the divorce is predicated on an infidelity.

Any Bible literalist who is divorced without proof of infidelity is a hypocrite. That's my reading of Matthew 5:32 anyway. Jesus gets asked later if he actually said that, and he repeats it.




What bewilders me about this whole divorce business is that it is just a few verses from a WHOLE LITANY of other things that Jesus said in his Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 which are hardly ever followed by any Christians.

The whole sermon is replete with things that even the most devout cannot follow even if they wanted. So why stop at divorce?
  • Do they give their shirt to people who sue them
  • Do they shop on Sunday
  • Do they give all their money to the poor
  • Do they love their enemy... did they support the Afghan and Iraq wars...Do they support Guantanamo and torture

All of the above are part of the commands of Jesus. So if they are breaking so many of the principles in the NT, why is it that they stop at divorce????

Is the sanity and happiness of people stuck in a loveless cesspit of a marriage worth STICKING TO THIS ONE dogma??? Why are people who work on Sunday and don’t give their other cheeks to be slapped not vilified???


Why is she vilified in the first place
John said:
{8:7} So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.


People never seem to remember that the following words of Jesus are also part of the VERY SAME sermon in which the divorce decree is BUT ONE.

Matthew said:
{5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {5:20} For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Do they vilify everyone who does not follow the law to the last “tittle” and are not as righteous as the “scribes and Pharisees”?

Why do they uphold Matthew 5:32 so adamantly but the rest they ignore????


So if anyone has ever LOOKED at a woman other than his wife then he has committed adultery (Matthew 5:28).

And if anyone has ever been angry with anyone then s/he is hell bound (Matthew 5:22).

How many times do people let a man hit them and turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39).

How are they on the love for Mexicans and the Taliban? (Matthew 5:44)

Are they saving any money in the bank? Jesus said DO NOT BOTHER (Matthew 6:19). Also Paul said that usury is sin though Jesus seems to advocate it (Matthew 25:27) but he also forbids it (Luke 6:35).

So why is Matthew 5:32 any more important than all the others they ignoring? Why stop at divorce which is in fact allowed in the laws of Moses.... just ignore that it is only the men who can do it.


Slavery was abolished in defiance to Paul in Ephesians 6:5.

America was founded in defiance to Paul's command to obey rulers because they are divinely appointed (Colossians 3:22).

Do people go to OPULENT and OSTENTATIOUS churches to pray OPENLY IN PUBLIC? Why are they not vilified for disobeying Jesus who said in the very same sermon
Matthew said:
{6:5} And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are:] for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. {6:6} But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. {6:7} But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do:] for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. {6:8} Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.




I think this post shows the hypocrisy of it all quite nicely
Dear Pastor:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your sermons, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination? Should I smite him? I have to admit I enjoy seafood, especially shrimp, crab, lobster, clams and mussels. Can I still eat these foods or am I already damned?


7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)


I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Yours,

A Parishioner
 
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My father has the same idea. Mary was a slut, and her family decided child was from "Holy spirit". Much like incubus fiction in Middle Ages.

In the South Indian state of Kerala, we had the Gandharva myth. The Gandharva was essentially a horny demigod of sorts and was blamed for the pregnancy of upper caste unmarried girls (yes...it was girls in those days). Everyone knew that it was probably the field hand or the bachelor uncle who was responsible but liked to live the lie. I guess Kerala is thus truly "God's own country"
 
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Holy ghost was drunken and forgot whom to knock up so he knocked up any girl/wife who could concieve in the country. Yahweh didn't notice the error until all the newborns mentally contacted him "Hi father, how are you?" Then he used Herodes to remove the unwanted offspring and take the blame for it. Compared to the flood an improvment, isn't it?
 
Holy ghost was drunken and forgot whom to knock up so he knocked up any girl/wife who could concieve in the country. Yahweh didn't notice the error until all the newborns mentally contacted him "Hi father, how are you?" Then he used Herodes to remove the unwanted offspring and take the blame for it. Compared to the flood an improvment, isn't it?


:big:
 
My son has an interesting hypothesis about Mary. He believes Mary cheated on Joseph and then Joe made up the whole bit about the holy spirit to save face. Of course, Joe didn't want to touch her again, so she remained "virgin" for the rest of her days.

My hypothesis is that Joseph still holds the World Record in gullibility.
 
Well, that or if we're to believe Matthew 1:19: "<i>Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.</i>"

I can even relate to that. Even if you believe that the missus has been sleeping around, getting her killed (which would have been the likely outcome there, as demanded by the Law) seems a bit extreme. It's not hard to imagine a guy taking pity there. Especially since we're talking a girl who had been pledged to him but only now about to be delivered (Luke 1:26-27, Matthew 1:18), by the standards of the time we're pretty much talking about a 12 year old girl. Even by the standards of the time and place, I don't find it hard to believe that some guys found it unpalatable to execute teenage girls.

But then he obviously changes his mind because of a dream. Not entirely impossible, I guess.

Or he could be a pragmatist. The poor state of medicine and taking them young, got a lot of women dead in childbirth, so there was a bit of a shortage of pussy around. And if Joseph isn't particularly well off, it may not necessarily be easy to get a replacement or not immediately. So, you know, between a girl with a bit more experience than expected and getting stuck with Miss Rosy Palm, I can see Joseph taking the pragmatical choice.

Or also on the pragmatical side, if as Matthew 1:18 says, they found she was pregnant before delivering it to him, Joe could probably negotiate some payment from the girl's family to not ruin their honour with that kind of stuff.

Or, who knows, he may actually start to like her. It's a long way through bad terrain from Nazareth to Bethlehem, when you only have a donkey. Worse things have been known to happen than a pissed off guy and a scared girl actually falling in love.
 
Well, that or if we're to believe Matthew 1:19: "<i>Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.</i>"

I can even relate to that. Even if you believe that the missus has been sleeping around, getting her killed (which would have been the likely outcome there, as demanded by the Law) seems a bit extreme. It's not hard to imagine a guy taking pity there. Especially since we're talking a girl who had been pledged to him but only now about to be delivered (Luke 1:26-27, Matthew 1:18), by the standards of the time we're pretty much talking about a 12 year old girl. Even by the standards of the time and place, I don't find it hard to believe that some guys found it unpalatable to execute teenage girls.

But then he obviously changes his mind because of a dream. Not entirely impossible, I guess.

Or he could be a pragmatist. The poor state of medicine and taking them young, got a lot of women dead in childbirth, so there was a bit of a shortage of pussy around. And if Joseph isn't particularly well off, it may not necessarily be easy to get a replacement or not immediately. So, you know, between a girl with a bit more experience than expected and getting stuck with Miss Rosy Palm, I can see Joseph taking the pragmatical choice.

Or also on the pragmatical side, if as Matthew 1:18 says, they found she was pregnant before delivering it to him, Joe could probably negotiate some payment from the girl's family to not ruin their honour with that kind of stuff.

Or, who knows, he may actually start to like her. It's a long way through bad terrain from Nazareth to Bethlehem, when you only have a donkey. Worse things have been known to happen than a pissed off guy and a scared girl actually falling in love.

:big:
 
Didn't they go on to have a whole bunch of kids?

Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

Catholic doctrine tells us that Mary remained a virgin and was ascended to heaven by angels. Apologists explain that passage as the word "brother" meaning "a good friend"
 
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Yeah... and Cheech told Tommy Chong that 'pendejo' meant 'my really good friend'..

;-}
 
or it's just all made up BS
and has been the biggest waste of time in all human history
 

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