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Tags barry jennings , Michael Hess , wtc 7

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Old 20th February 2012, 07:25 AM   #1
ergo
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WTC 7: Let's look at the Jennings/Hess timeline more carefully

In this thread, Larry Silverstein explaining what he meant by 'pull it', a discussion began on the timeline of Jennings and Hess getting trapped in WTC 7.


I posted the following:

Quote:
9/11 bedunkers, please fill in the blanks:


WTC 1 was hit at 8:46 a.m. WTC 2 was hit at 9:03 a.m. WTC 7 was evacuated at 9:30 a.m.

Jennings and Hess arrived at WTC 7 at ______ a.m.

WTC 2 fell at 9:59 a.m., 29 minutes after WTC 7 was evacuated. WTC 1 fell at 10:28 a.m., almost one hour after WTC 7 was evacuated.

Jennings and Hess got trapped in WTC 7 when debris from WTC ____ blew out some lower floors.

.
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Last edited by ergo; 20th February 2012 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 20th February 2012, 07:27 AM   #2
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DGM answered:

Originally Posted by DGM View Post
~9:30am (more toward 9:40)

2

My reply:
Quote:
How did debris from the destruction of WTC 2 at 9:59 hurl itself into WTC 7 enough to knock out several floors below floor 6, trapping Jennings and Hess? While not hurling itself into any other buildings neighbouring or shielding WTC 7?


This hasn't been answered yet.
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Last edited by ergo; 20th February 2012 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 20th February 2012, 07:38 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
But I do understand. Jennings and Hess were vague about the times. The only way we can really know is to corroborate their observations with known events.

Since the burning buses and cars were not evident until after WTC 1 collapsed, it is impossible for the men to have broken the window before that time.

No amount of wriggling and protestation is going to change that fact. You have already lost the argument and your position has failed.

The only way you could 'prove' yourself correct would be to show a video or photo taken BEFORE the WTC 1 collapse, on Barclay st, showing buses and cars burning.
You can't do that, because it didn't happen that way. You will make up excuse after excuse, but you CANNOT supply the proof you need. But we already did.

You have lost the argument. Give it up.
And here's DC1971 specifically answering the question you say no one answered.
Originally Posted by dc1971 View Post
And again... ***sigh***...

WTC7 was set ablaze on several floors. These fires were not dealt with and were left to burn for a period of 7 hours after the collapse of Tower 1. And yes, other buildings were destroyed upon impact of falling debris from Tower 1 and 2. This has already been explained to you several times before and the picture you just posted totally refutes your argument but you insist to keep asking the same questions.... YAAAAAWWWWNNN!!!!
And DGM.
Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Refresh my memory. What time did you say they arrived?

I really don't see the problem. They arrived before the collapse of the south tower. That tower collapsed while the were going up to the "bunker". On their way back down, the north tower collapsed.

After thinking for a bit, they most likely arrived around 9.50 AM (or so).


Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yeah, DGM, I actually posted that same timeline. I was then asked why Barry wasn't at work earlier, and Ergo wondered if he was having coffee. Which I wasn't sure, I didn't ask him.

To be it goes a little something like,

Barry gets to work at around 9:45-9:50. On his way up WTC 2 collapses throwing dust and debris on the ground, since Barry isn't "The flash" I would assume he wouldn't make it up until about 10:00-05. After feeling the ground shake, probably some popping\explosions from WTC 2 coming down, combined with no one in the building, he makes a few phone calls, and is told to get out of the building. We're probably looking at a time pretty close to 10:20-25 right now. Barry starts making his way down, and WTC 1 comes down at 10:28...the rest is history.
If you'd like to carry your drubbing into a new thread, I'm all for it.
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Old 20th February 2012, 07:45 AM   #4
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In fact, if you listen to Barry Jenning's account, you will hear that he was driving in to work when he got the call that a Cessna had flown into WTC 1, and he was directed to go to the OEM on Building 7's 23rd floor. Jennings also states that he was in the building when the second plane hit WTC 2.

When he got there, the OEM was empty, with steam still rising from coffee cups. He and Hess called around and were told they need to get out of there. This had to have been before WTC 7 was officially evacuated, since it was security who had had to let them into the OEM in the first place.

AlienEntity will probably try to post his video here which gives extremely stretched-out timelines that are not credible. So it would be better simply to take the accounts at face value and fit them into a logical timeline.

Here also is Michael Hess's account recorded right after the events:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUfiLbXMa64
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Old 20th February 2012, 07:55 AM   #5
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Ergo... because you have refused to address it elsewhere, how do you account for the burning cars if you need these events to have taken place BEFORE both towers have collapsed?
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Old 20th February 2012, 07:58 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
So it would be better simply to take the accounts at face value and fit them into a logical timeline.
So let's see your timeline.
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Old 20th February 2012, 08:16 AM   #7
ergo
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Originally Posted by Edx View Post
Ergo... because you have refused to address it elsewhere, how do you account for the burning cars if you need these events to have taken place BEFORE both towers have collapsed?

The burning cars are not explained by dust clouds from the towers' collapses.

Jennings reports that the explosion that blocked them and threw them back in the stairwell blew out the lobby of WTC 7. And that he was hearing explosions going on the entire time.
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Last edited by ergo; 20th February 2012 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 20th February 2012, 08:19 AM   #8
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Ergo says no one answered his question.
I post a link to people answering his question.
He ignores it.

Is this one of those threads where you just ignore all of the answers so you can quote-mine people and mock them? That hasn't gone so well for you.

Originally Posted by ergo View Post
...
AlienEntity will probably try to post his video here which gives extremely stretched-out timelines that are not credible.
To you, but you're not exactly objective.
Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Were not evident to whom?

(Just trying to follow you in your logic here, in the hopes of showing you more clearly why it doesn't matter.)
You're trying to say his logic doesn't matter in the same sentence you say you don't understand it. (And don't try to say you understood it, or you wouldn't need to ask clarifying questions.)

Quote:
So it would be better simply to take the accounts at face value and fit them into a logical timeline....
Feel free to do so, then. It will be subject to the exact same criticism you feel others' timeline was. Sauce for the goose.

This whole thread is an attempt to reset the timeline of the debate back to the point before your points were defeated.
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Old 20th February 2012, 08:26 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Edx View Post
Ergo... because you have refused to address it elsewhere, how do you account for the burning cars if you need these events to have taken place BEFORE both towers have collapsed?
Originally Posted by ergo View Post
The burning cars are not explained by dust clouds from the towers' collapses. ...
So you can't explain it and are gainsaying what you think your opposition's argument is. Got it.
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Old 20th February 2012, 08:32 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by 000063 View Post
Ergo says no one answered his question.
I post a link to people answering his question.
He ignores it.
If even half of what you post were true, discussion could move along much more rapidly.

Please read the question I ask again and understand it. We are talking about debris from WTC 2 entering building 7 and blowing out all the lower floors.

Then, if you still believe someone answered it, please quote their answer. Do not post junk answers. Do not post nonsense. If you don't know how to answer the question, or you don't really understand why you need to, DON'T POST.
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Old 20th February 2012, 08:57 AM   #11
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I Know several people who worked at WTC 7 for Salomon Brothers (part of
Morgan Stanley)

After the plane hit WTC 1 they were ordered out - ordered out by security
manager Rick Rescorla in main offices at WTC 2

Building was empty by 9:30 AM
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Old 20th February 2012, 09:08 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
If even half of what you post were true, discussion could move along much more rapidly.

Please read the question I ask again and understand it. We are talking about debris from WTC 2 entering building 7 and blowing out all the lower floors.

Then, if you still believe someone answered it, please quote their answer. Do not post junk answers. Do not post nonsense. If you don't know how to answer the question, or you don't really understand why you need to, DON'T POST.
Why are you making this claim? I do not believe anyone has suggested this to be the case. I'm sure there was some minimal damage to the WTC 7 lobby from the collapse of WTC 2, but Hess and Jennings were still in or near the OEM when this occurred. As according to Hess, there was a power failure while they were there, most likely when WTC 2 collapsed and the power was shut down to the building.

So please, before we move on to anything else within this thread, I would like for you to address what I believe is an erroneous claim on your part:
Why are you claiming the lower floors of WTC 7 were "blown out" by WTC 2? I do not believe anyone here has said that.
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Old 20th February 2012, 09:11 AM   #13
000063
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
If even half of what you post were true, discussion could move along much more rapidly.

Please read the question I ask again and understand it. We are talking about debris from WTC 2 entering building 7 and blowing out all the lower floors.
Wrong.
Quote:
several floors below floor 6, trapping Jennings and Hess?
Not "all the lower floors", you said "several floors". If you were unclear, the fault is yours, because "several floors below 6" is not the same as "all the lower floors".
Quote:
While not hurling itself into any other buildings neighbouring or shielding WTC 7?
It has already been pointed out that several other buildings in the area were damaged. I quoted the post by dc1971. I also seem to have missed the point where you proved it was WTC 2 (South Tower) debris that struck WTC 7 during the period in question.

Quote:
Then, if you still believe someone answered it, please quote their answer. Do not post junk answers. Do not post nonsense. If you don't know how to answer the question, or you don't really understand why you need to, DON'T POST.
Post #3.

I like how you're already laying the groundwork to dismiss contrary answers as nonsense, which you will inevitably not explain. You'll make the claim, and then never answer requests for evidence. You are also carefully not directly addressing the claims I have already quoted, while implying they are horse feathers.

Yep, you're ignoring the answers so you can quote-mine and mock, like you did with post #8. Notably, you have not attempted to fit events into a logical timeline, as you claim would be the best course of action.
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Old 20th February 2012, 09:17 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
DGM answered:

Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Refresh my memory. What time did you say they arrived?




I really don't see the problem. They arrived before the collapse of the south tower. That tower collapsed while the were going up to the "bunker". On their way back down, the north tower collapsed.*




After thinking for a bit, they most likely arrived around 9.50 AM (or so).






My reply:

Quote:
How did debris from the destruction of WTC 2 at 9:59 hurl itself into WTC 7 enough to knock out several floors below floor 6, trapping Jennings and Hess? While not hurling itself into any other buildings neighbouring or shielding WTC 7?
This hasn't been answered yet.
I did answer this. It didn't. It was the collapse of the north tower that did the damage.

What time do you believe he arrived?
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Old 20th February 2012, 09:19 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by 000063 View Post
Wrong.
Not "all the lower floors", you said "several floors". If you were unclear, the fault is yours, because "several floors below 6" is not the same as "all the lower floors".
It has already been pointed out that several other buildings in the area were damaged. I quoted the post by dc1971. I also seem to have missed the point where you proved it was WTC 2 (South Tower) debris that struck WTC 7 during the period in question.

Post #3.

I like how you're already laying the groundwork to dismiss contrary answers as nonsense, which you will inevitably not explain. You'll make the claim, and then never answer requests for evidence. You are also carefully not directly addressing the claims I have already quoted, while implying they are horse feathers.

Yep, you're ignoring the answers so you can quote-mine and mock, like you did with post #8. Notably, you have not attempted to fit events into a logical timeline, as you claim would be the best course of action.
If ergo wants to convert people over to his Church of Truth Movement he should stop posting. His dishonesty is so utterly transparent it would never sway a fence sitter.
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Old 20th February 2012, 09:23 AM   #16
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I posted this from one of Alien's previous posts.

Stating:
Quote:
I'll give you a citation you should have. 'At approximately 9:44am, after the report of a third aircraft heading the city and news that the Pentagon had been attacked, a Deputy OEM Commissioner ordered the complete evacuation of WTC 7 (Sheirer 2004) This order included the evacuation of the OEM operations center on the 23rd floor. The loss of the OEM operations center created difficulties related to the coordination of emergency responder operations and resources'

NIST NCSTAR 1-8 p 109

I have a distinct feeling you're going to ignore this or just handwave it away as part of the 'conspiracy'. But there it is. Further, did you know that at 9:30am FDNY, EMS established a triage center in the lobby of WTC 7?
(also on p 109 of NCSTAR 1-8)
So the total, and complete evacuation came at 9:44. The building was evacuated before this by the security crew on staff.

The big question here is, what are you expecting to get from this, Ergo? What are you claiming?

No one said WTC 2 fell into WTC7. Why must you tip toe around everything? Just get to the point, what is it you're saying?
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Old 20th February 2012, 09:25 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by 000063 View Post
Ergo says no one answered his question.
I post a link to people answering his question.
He ignores it.

Is this one of those threads where you just ignore all of the answers so you can quote-mine people and mock them? That hasn't gone so well for you.

To you, but you're not exactly objective.

You're trying to say his logic doesn't matter in the same sentence you say you don't understand it. (And don't try to say you understood it, or you wouldn't need to ask clarifying questions.)

Feel free to do so, then. It will be subject to the exact same criticism you feel others' timeline was. Sauce for the goose.

This whole thread is an attempt to reset the timeline of the debate back to the point before your points were defeated.
Hot Tub Time Machine!!!!
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Old 20th February 2012, 09:31 AM   #18
000063
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Originally Posted by EventHorizon View Post
If ergo wants to convert people over to his Church of Truth Movement he should stop posting. His dishonesty is so utterly transparent it would never sway a fence sitter.
I love that he has to strawman himself.
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Old 20th February 2012, 09:44 AM   #19
GlennB
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Originally Posted by EventHorizon View Post
If ergo wants to convert people over to his Church of Truth Movement he should stop posting. His dishonesty is so utterly transparent it would never sway a fence sitter.
I tend to doubt that he's actively dishonest. His posts strongly suggest that he's utterly incapable of taking in and digesting information that comes his way. A runaway train of impenetrably half-baked ideas.
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Old 20th February 2012, 10:32 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
The burning cars are not explained by dust clouds from the towers' collapses.

Jennings reports that the explosion that blocked them and threw them back in the stairwell blew out the lobby of WTC 7. And that he was hearing explosions going on the entire time.
You are so right, for your fantasy, Judy Woods says beam weapon.
You are in the wrong forum. You have idiotic fantasies about 911 which match your physics expertise.

Barry was under a desk for an hour praying after the first tower collapsed. Don't forget to add the time under the desk praying.

You sure are slow on figuring out 911. Over 10 years and you are diverging from reality, unable to comprehend witnesses are not good witnesses, unless you add logic and knowledge. A skill set 911 truth lacks.
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Old 20th February 2012, 10:32 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I did answer this. It didn't. It was the collapse of the north tower that did the damage.

So you have already changed your mind?
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Old 20th February 2012, 10:40 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Ergo, is there a point in this? Are you getting somewhere or just trying to point out random differences?

Quit messing around and get to what your point is with this thread or let it go.
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Old 20th February 2012, 10:45 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by njslim View Post
I Know several people who worked at WTC 7 for Salomon Brothers (part of Morgan Stanley)

After the plane hit WTC 1 they were ordered out - ordered out by security
manager Rick Rescorla in main offices at WTC 2

Building was empty by 9:30 AM
Thanks, NJ Slim. For the sake of an argument then, we can say the building was evacuated by 9:30 am.

Your account does raise the question, though, why they would evacuate at a time when the first plane was still only considered a random accident.
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Old 20th February 2012, 10:51 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Thanks, NJ Slim. For the sake of an argument then, we can say the building was evacuated by 9:30 am.

Your account does raise the question, though, why they would evacuate at a time when the first plane was still only considered a random accident.
NJ Slim could possibly be mistaken. As I quoted above the final decision to completely evacuate WTC 7 wasn't made until 9:44. Factor in the delay due to communications being down, and the hysteria that was going on that day I wouldn't know when to place everyone being taken away and no longer being allowed in the building.

Moving along.

ETA: The 9:44 was when the final decision was made. According to reports the building begun being evacuated around 9:30. So he isn't mistaken persay, there are just 2 different evacuation times.
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Old 20th February 2012, 10:56 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post

ETA: The 9:44 was when the final decision was made. According to reports the building begun being evacuated around 9:30. So he isn't mistaken persay, there are just 2 different evacuation times.

I'm not sure what to think of anything you're posting here plague, because you also just quoted AlienEntity apparently citing NIST that
Quote:
at 9:30am FDNY, EMS established a triage center in the lobby of WTC 7
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:08 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by cantonear1968 View Post
Why are you making this claim? I do not believe anyone has suggested this to be the case. I'm sure there was some minimal damage to the WTC 7 lobby from the collapse of WTC 2, but Hess and Jennings were still in or near the OEM when this occurred. As according to Hess, there was a power failure while they were there, most likely when WTC 2 collapsed and the power was shut down to the building.

So please, before we move on to anything else within this thread, I would like for you to address what I believe is an erroneous claim on your part:
Why are you claiming the lower floors of WTC 7 were "blown out" by WTC 2? I do not believe anyone here has said that.
Ergo, please address this.
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:15 AM   #27
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Cantonear, I'd prefer not to have to answer questions from posters who haven't even bothered to read the thread. Look at posts #2 and 21.
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:18 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Cantonear, I'd prefer not to have to answer questions from posters who haven't even bothered to read the thread. Look at posts #2 and 21.
Dodge noted.

You simply quoted yourself, not where DGM or anyone else stated WTC 2 "blew out" the lower floors of WTC 7.

Perhaps you need to refresh yourself on what has actually been written.
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:19 AM   #29
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Can you link to any poster other than yourself claiming the lower floors of WTC 7 were "blown out" by WTC 2?

If you cannot, I am happy to have corrected you and am willing to move on.
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:23 AM   #30
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Hypertext Links for Dummies


(or is that "filling in the blanks" for Dummies??)
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“Much of the 9/11 story has not been told to the public" - Steven Badger, attorney for insurance litigators affected by the WTC disaster.

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Old 20th February 2012, 11:24 AM   #31
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I actually apologize. It does appear that DGM posted "[WTC] 2" in response to Ergo's question of "Jennings and hess got trapped in wtc 7 when debris from wtc ____ blew out some lower floors. "

My apologies, Ergo. It appears I did not follow the threads far enough.
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:24 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Cantonear, I'd prefer not to have to answer questions from posters who haven't even bothered to read the thread. Look at posts #2 and 21.
Go and read Mike Catalanos testimony. It blows your nonsense out of the water.
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:25 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
I'm not sure what to think of anything you're posting here plague, because you also just quoted AlienEntity apparently citing NIST that
I fail to see where the confusion is, there was a triage setup in the wtc 7 building. The first evacuation, by the security, was for the people inside the building. Despite those people being evacuated the triage was still setup. When the final "complete" evacuation notice was given at 9:44 the triage was moved, and the entire building was emptied.
Quote:
WE STILL do not have south side close shots of WTC 7 despite a 2007 outstanding FOIA to NIST. South side upper and lower lobby, outside (near sculpture, and the emergency triage in WTC 7 at 9:30 am. There was at least one photographer and one camera crew on that side of the building which are identified in the FOIA appeal.
Source

I am showing that there WAS a triage there at 9:30, not that it was setup at 9:30. Meaning, they didn't begin to set it up at 9:30, it appears to already have been in place at that time.

Once again, Ergo, what are you trying to get at?
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:38 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I am showing that there WAS a triage there at 9:30, not that it was setup at 9:30. Meaning, they didn't begin to set it up at 9:30, it appears to already have been in place at that time.
That's not what AlienEntity said.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Originally Posted by AlienEntity
...at 9:30am FDNY, EMS established a triage center in the lobby of WTC 7
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:42 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
That's not what AlienEntity said.
Ergo, buddy, there were buildings falling down, planes crashing into buildings, dozens if not hundreds of injured running around looking for help. Do you, honestly, think there should be a time line down to the exact minute. It could have been setup at around 9:20-30. What difference does it make? What are you trying to get at? Why are you ignoring those questions? Does this is anyway support a conspiracy? WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES ANY OF THIS MAKE OR ARE YOU JUST LOOKING FOR ATTENTION?
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:45 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
That's not what AlienEntity said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlienEntity
...at 9:30am FDNY, EMS established a triage center in the lobby of WTC 7
Why do you feel this presents a problem for Alienentity's timeline? In fact, the triage center was being expanded into the docking area of WTC 7 at the time of WTC 2's collapse.

I fail to see why this presents a problem.
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:46 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
DGM answered:




My reply:



This hasn't been answered yet.
A new thread to restate your strawman? Really?

Since your ideas are based on a masochistic misunderstanding of events, the questions that follow are not grounded in reality (obviously).

The facts of that day are not merely a set of superficial rhetorical points to be viewed according to personal bias. There are certain things we must accept, and others we cannot know for certain and must treat as estimates or guesses.

Facts which should not be in dispute (but apparently truthers cannot accept)
  1. WTC 7 was somewhat damaged in the lobby area by the collapse of
    WTC 2.
  2. Fire alarms were set off, probably due to dust and smoke from the collapse.
  3. Jennings and Hess arrived at the OEM sometime after it had been evacuated. This points to a time somewhere between 9:30am and 10:am. According to NIST NCSTAR 1A the evacuation of the OEM was ordered at 9:45am. Using that figure then it is likely they arrived closer to 10:am.
  4. WTC 7 was not completely evacuated when the South Tower collapsed at 9:59am. The EMS Triage operations were still functioning right up to that point, in WTC 7 - so there were a lot of personnel and injured people still.
    If there had been some kind of giant explosion in the building, these people would not only have been witnesses to it, but victims also.
  5. After the collapse of WTC 2, EMS personnel were assigned to make sure WTC 7 was evacuated. There were no reports of collapsed stairwells by any of those personnel. The only damage reported was broken glass along with very thick dust from the tower collapse.
    This info is available here
  6. Michael Hess reported that power went out while they were in the OEM. This happened when WTC 2 collapsed according to independent reports. It establishes that Jennings and Hess were still in the OEM at 9:59am.
  7. A security officer is sent up into WTC 7 after the collapse of WTC 2 to ensure that the building has been fully evacuated. He ascends stairwells as far as the 40th floors and then descends. Around the time he reaches the 30th floor WTC 7 shakes and everything goes black, due to the collapse of the North Tower WTC 1. He continues down to the 23rd floor and finds the OEM empty and filled with smoke. He is eventually rescued and escorted out of the building, as were Jennings and Hess.
    http://www.historycommons.org/contex...ecurityofficer
  8. By the time Jennings and Hess break a window to call for help, both towers have collapsed, as evidenced by their observation of scores of burning vehicles on Barclay St. Neither man could see either the North or South tower from this location, even if they had been still standing, so their assumptions were not based on direct observation. Neither man realized that the towers had collapsed at that point.

It was not uncommon for witnesses to misunderstand the nature of the tower collapses. Many, including EMS Division Chief John Peruggia, do not understand this until they actually see the rubble first hand.

In his words, even after running to escape the collapse - 'We didnít know that, but it was the south tower that was down.' 'I thought that part of the building or the facade of the building had collapsed. You know, it was too dusty to see outside, so we didnít know what
happened..'

This shows that even professionals who were outside, but not in direct view of the towers, did not comprehend that there was complete collapse. It is therefore not surprising that neither Jennings nor Hess, from their vantage point deep inside WTC 7, also did not realize what had happened.

Nor can either Jennings or Hess be expected to know exactly what time it was. It is unrealistic to treat their estimates and assumptions as some kind of absolute fact which overrides all others. But unfortunately this is exactly what 9/11 Truth does - it refuses to corroborate this information with known and established facts, and thus amplifies the errors instead of minimizing them.
The actions of 9/11 Truthers then focus on defending those accumulating errors against all facts and logic, creating a massively incorrect narrative which runs almost entirely counter to what actually happened.

The Barry Jennings mythology, which includes his alleged assassination by an unknown conspiracy for speaking about his experiences, is just one of a legion of 9/11 conspiracy myths which persist.


*Note, I am not certain who the security officer was. It wasn't Mike Catalano from his description.
http://cryptome.org/nara/wtc7-04-0116.pdf
http://www.buildings.com/ArticleDeta...5/Default.aspx
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Last edited by alienentity; 20th February 2012 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:50 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
My bad. If you read my post however I do say North tower (I never changed my mind). The time stays the same.

So, What time do you think he arrived?
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:52 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
A new thread to restate your strawman? Really?

Since your ideas are based on a masochistic misunderstanding of events, the questions that follow are not grounded in reality (obviously).

The facts of that day are not merely a set of superficial rhetorical points to be viewed according to personal bias. There are certain things we must accept, and others we cannot know for certain and must treat as estimates or guesses.

Facts which should not be in dispute (but apparently truthers cannot accept)
  1. WTC 7 was somewhat damaged in the lobby area by the collapse of
    WTC 2.
  2. Fire alarms were set off, probably due to dust and smoke from the collapse.
  3. Jennings and Hess arrived at the OEM sometime after it had been evacuated. This points to a time somewhere between 9:30am and 10:am. According to NIST NCSTAR 1A the evacuation of the OEM was ordered at 9:45am. Using that figure then it is likely they arrived closer to 10:am.
  4. WTC 7 was not completely evacuated when the South Tower collapsed at 9:59am. The EMS Triage operations were still functioning right up to that point, in WTC 7 - so there were a lot of personnel and injured people still.
    If there had been some kind of giant explosion in the building, these people would not only have been witnesses to it, but victims also.
  5. After the collapse of WTC 2, EMS personnel were assigned to make sure WTC 7 was evacuated. There were no reports of collapsed stairwells by any of those personnel. The only damage reported was broken glass along with very thick dust from the tower collapse.
    This info is available here
  6. Michael Hess reported that power went out while they were in the OEM. This happened when WTC 2 collapsed according to independent reports. It establishes that Jennings and Hess were still in the OEM at 9:59am.
  7. A security officer is sent up into WTC 7 after the collapse of WTC 2 to ensure that the building has been fully evacuated. He ascends stairwells as far as the 40th floors and then descends. Around the time he reaches the 30th floor WTC 7 shakes and everything goes black, due to the collapse of the North Tower WTC 1. He continues down to the 23rd floor and finds the OEM empty and filled with smoke. He is eventually rescued and escorted out of the building, as were Jennings and Hess.
    http://www.historycommons.org/contex...ecurityofficer
  8. By the time Jennings and Hess break a window to call for help, both towers have collapsed, as evidenced by their observation of scores of burning vehicles on Barclay St. Neither man could see either the North or South tower from this location, even if they had been still standing, so their assumptions were not based on direct observation. Neither man realized that the towers had collapsed at that point.

It was not uncommon for witnesses to misunderstand the nature of the tower collapses. Many, including EMS Division Chief John Peruggia, do not understand this until they actually see the rubble first hand.

In his words, even after running to escape the collapse - 'We didnít know that, but it was the south tower that was down.' 'I thought that part of the building or the facade of the building had collapsed. You know, it was too dusty to see outside, so we didnít know what
happened..'

This shows that even professionals who were outside, but not in direct view of the towers, did not comprehend that there was complete collapse. It is therefore not surprising that neither Jennings nor Hess, from their vantage point deep inside WTC 7, also did not realize what had happened.

Nor can either Jennings or Hess be expected to know exactly what time it was. It is unrealistic to treat their estimates and assumptions as some kind of absolute fact which overrides all others. But unfortunately this is exactly what 9/11 Truth does - it refuses to corroborate this information with known and established facts, and thus amplifies the errors instead of minimizing them.
The actions of 9/11 Truthers then focus on defending those accumulating errors against all facts and logic, creating a massively incorrect narrative which runs almost entirely counter to what actually happened.

The Barry Jennings mythology, which includes his alleged assassination by an unknown conspiracy for speaking about his experiences, is just one of a legion of 9/11 conspiracy myths which persist.
/\ /\

What he said, this thread can now die...again.
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Old 20th February 2012, 11:52 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Go and read Mike Catalanos testimony. It blows your nonsense out of the water.
Oh thanks! I'd forgotten his name, he was the security guy who was also in WTC 7 when WTC 1 collapsed.

I'll update my post.

ETA I've read his statements and apparently it wasn't him after all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't find anything in his statements which indicate he was inside WTC 7 when WTC 1 collapsed.
Therefore I'll leave the name blank as it was previously.
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