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Old 29th February 2012, 07:30 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by Porterboy View Post
Those are fascinating ideas. A lot of Oriental and indigenous spiritual practices, like meditation or taking certain drugs, are about shutting down or altering the normal mental processes of our mind in order to experience some kind of "higher consciousness" or "overmind" (I can't be sure here what terminology to use and I'm too keen on those words But in the absence of better alternatives they'll have to suffice.) I've personally never experienced this kind of thing, but people talk about the "veil being parted" and the "true self being audible once the noise of life is quietened." It must be an amazing feeling!

Thanks for adding a new slant to the conversation in your last few posts! The cryogenics resurrection ( suspended animation ) scenario would quite literally be an afterlife if it worked.
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:31 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
Thanks for adding a new slant to the conversation in your last few posts! The cryogenics resurrection ( suspended animation ) scenario would quite literally be an afterlife if it worked.
No, it wouldn't. By definition, it would still just be life.
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:38 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by RobRoy View Post
No, it wouldn't. By definition, it would still just be life.


I was under the impression that with those cryo pods the person is dead, but preserved, and that the assumption is that science will be able to revive them at a later date when they can be fully repaired. So are you saying that they aren't dead? If not, then why would ressurecting them at a later date not qualify as an afterlife? I mean they would literally be here after death, but alive so this would be their hereafter.
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:39 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by RobRoy View Post
No, it wouldn't. By definition, it would still just be life.
One Rredefinition coming up.
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:40 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
Thanks for adding a new slant to the conversation in your last few posts! The cryogenics resurrection ( suspended animation ) scenario would quite literally be an afterlife if it worked.


The whole idea of life --> death --> afterlife is completely escaping you, isn't it?
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:43 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
The whole idea of life --> death --> afterlife is completely escaping you, isn't it?
Oh, I don't know. With all these Rredefinitions, Ufology obviously believes he's the reincarnation of Samuel Johnson.
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:43 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
I was under the impression that with those cryo pods the person is dead, but preserved, and that the assumption is that science will be able to revive them at a later date when they can be fully repaired. So are you saying that they aren't dead? If not, then why would ressurecting them at a later date not qualify as an afterlife?


Because it would simply be a continuation of life after something of a hiatus.

Your own use of the term suspended animation should have been a big tip off.
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:46 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Oh, I don't know. With all these Rredefinitions, Ufology obviously believes he's the reincarnation of Samuel Johnson.


C: Big blue wobbly thing that mermaids live in.

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Old 29th February 2012, 08:47 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
Thanks for adding a new slant to the conversation in your last few posts! The cryogenics resurrection ( suspended animation ) scenario would quite literally be an afterlife if it worked.
Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Because it would simply be a continuation of life after something of a hiatus.

Your own use of the term suspended animation should have been a big tip off.
Just in case.
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:48 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
C: Big blue wobbly thing that mermaids live in.

I offer you my most enthusiastic contrafribularities.
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:48 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
C: Big blue wobbly thing that mermaids live in.

D. 48 inch talking wabbit.
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:51 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Just in case.


Thank You.

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Old 29th February 2012, 08:51 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
D. 48 inch talking wabbit.
Yes. Tiny misunderstanding. Still, my hopes weren't high.



Oh, and "D?"
I'm quite pleased with "dog."
Yes, and your definition of "dog" is?
Not a cat."
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:53 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Just in case.

I would agree ( with a certain person on my ignore list ) if the suspended animation were such that the client didn't actually die ... perhaps just slowed down a lot. But what about in the case of what would be considered clinical death?
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:13 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
I would agree ( with a certain person on my ignore list ) if the suspended animation were such that the client didn't actually die ... perhaps just slowed down a lot. But what about in the case of what would be considered clinical death?


Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
The whole idea of life --> death --> afterlife is completely escaping you, isn't it?


In either of the scenarios you're describing, what happens after the suspension is just a continuation of the same life that was going on before the suspension.

You really need to stop this nonsense of affecting a different understanding of what is actually meant by 'afterlife' to everyone else.

And all the other words as well, while you're at it.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:39 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
I was under the impression that with those cryo pods the person is dead, but preserved, and that the assumption is that science will be able to revive them at a later date when they can be fully repaired. So are you saying that they aren't dead? If not, then why would ressurecting them at a later date not qualify as an afterlife? I mean they would literally be here after death, but alive so this would be their hereafter.
Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
In either of the scenarios you're describing, what happens after the suspension is just a continuation of the same life that was going on before the suspension.

You really need to stop this nonsense of affecting a different understanding of what is actually meant by 'afterlife' to everyone else.

And all the other words as well, while you're at it.
This.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:45 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by RobRoy View Post
This.

That doesn't address this: "I would agree ( with a certain person on my ignore list ) if the suspended animation were such that the client didn't actually die ... perhaps just slowed down a lot. But what about in the case of what would be considered clinical death?"

BTW: please stop relaying answers from other people. You were doing just fine on your own. I'm interested in what you think, not them.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:53 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
That doesn't address this: "I would agree ( with a certain person on my ignore list ) if the suspended animation were such that the client didn't actually die ... perhaps just slowed down a lot. But what about in the case of what would be considered clinical death?"
I wasn't responding to that. You asked me a question, someone else answered it nicely, and there wasn't anything more to add.

Quote:
BTW: please stop relaying answers from other people. You were doing just fine on your own. I'm interested in what you think, not them.
Sure thing, I'll do anything you say as soon as you apologize for insulting me, admit where you've been wrong, and actually start having a discussion, rather than arguing your own point of view for arguments sake.

Deal?
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:57 AM   #379
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Quote:
The afterlife (also referred to as life after death, the Hereafter, the Next World, or the Other Side) is the belief that a part of, or essence of, or soul of an individual, which carries with it and confers personal identity, survives the death of the body of this world and this lifetime, by natural or supernatural means, in contrast to the belief in eternal oblivion after death.
do you get it yet Ufol, if the body doesn't die permanently, then its not the afterlife, its just this one
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:01 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
That doesn't address this: "I would agree ( with a certain person on my ignore list ) if the suspended animation were such that the client didn't actually die ... perhaps just slowed down a lot. But what about in the case of what would be considered clinical death?"
Then you're dead.

No large mammal brought back out of cryonic freezing has survived.

Cryonics is still the realm of science fiction.
The hypothesis that memories will be preserved in the frozen brain cells is still unproven.
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:02 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by RobRoy View Post
I wasn't responding to that. You asked me a question, someone else answered it nicely, and there wasn't anything more to add.



Sure thing, I'll do anything you say as soon as you apologize for insulting me, admit where you've been wrong, and actually start having a discussion, rather than arguing your own point of view for arguments sake.

Deal?

The comments that offended you were aimed at another poster altogether. I already mentioned that. So far as I'm concerned we're still having a civil discussion.
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:13 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
The comments that offended you were aimed at another poster altogether. I already mentioned that. So far as I'm concerned we're still having a civil discussion.
And how has 'So far as you're concerned' worked out for you so far?
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:16 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Then you're dead.

No large mammal brought back out of cryonic freezing has survived.

Cryonics is still the realm of science fiction.
The hypothesis that memories will be preserved in the frozen brain cells is still unproven.

Agreed ... but the context is obviously hypothetical. What about in that context?


NOTE: Then there are stories like this of people who have been revived after being presumed dead. What about them?
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:17 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
The comments that offended you were aimed at another poster altogether. I already mentioned that. So far as I'm concerned we're still having a civil discussion.
Allow me to jog your memory.

So again:
1 - Apologize for insulting me
2 - Admit where you've been wrong
3 - Actually start having a discussion, rather than arguing your own point of view for arguments sake
Then we might start having a “civil discussion”.

Originally Posted by ufology View Post
Agreed ... but the context is obviously hypothetical. What about in that context?


NOTE: Then there are stories like this of people who have been revived after being presumed dead. What about them?
Still not an afterlife. Your use of this term, along with your use of a number of other terms, has constantly been an example of moving the goal posts in order to suit your arguments. That's not discussion, that's argumentation for its own sake. Afterlife is what we're talking about. Not continuing this life.
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:24 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
Agreed ... but the context is obviously hypothetical. What about in that context?


NOTE: Then there are stories like this of people who have been revived after being presumed dead. What about them?
I answered that in the post you actually replied to ?!
Quote:
Cryonics is still the realm of science fiction.
The hypothesis that memories will be preserved in the frozen brain cells is still unproven.
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:26 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by RobRoy View Post

Still not an afterlife. Your use of this term, along with your use of a number of other terms, has constantly been an example of moving the goal posts in order to suit your arguments. That's not discussion, that's argumentation for its own sake. Afterlife is what we're talking about. Not continuing this life.

So if being dead, and then being alive again doesn't literally constitute life after death, then what context would you say is required for it to be considered to be "literally" that way ( which was the context I used at the time ), and because I've not changed that context, I've not changed the goalposts at all with respect to my original comment. But perhaps you would like to expand on the concept a bit ... Go ahead outline what else you think would be required to qualify for an afterlife ... in a literal sense or otherwise.
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:27 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
And how has 'So far as you're concerned' worked out for you so far?


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Old 29th February 2012, 10:29 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
So if being dead, and then being alive again doesn't literally constitute life after death, then what context would you say is required for it to be considered to be "literally" that way ( which was the context I used at the time ), and because I've not changed that context, I've not changed the goalposts at all with respect to my original comment. But perhaps you would like to expand on the concept a bit ... Go ahead outline what else you think would be required to qualify for an afterlife ... in a literal sense or otherwise.
Allow me to jog your memory.

So again:
1 - Apologize for insulting me
2 - Admit where you've been wrong
3 - Actually start having a discussion, rather than arguing your own point of view for arguments sake
Then we might start having a “civil discussion”.*


*Clearly, you missed that last part, so I've reposted.
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:30 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
So if being dead, and then being alive again doesn't constitute life after death, then what context would you say is required for it to be considered to be "literally" that way ( which was the context I used at the time ), and because I've not changed that context, I've not changed the goalposts at all with respect to my original comment. But perhaps you would like to expand on the concept a bit ... Go ahead outline what else you think would be required to qualify for an afterlife ... in a literal sense or otherwise.
I'm not sure that "Afterlife" (as in the thread title) is exactly the same as life after death, though the two are quite interchangeable. The concept of "Afterlife" is that everyone thinks you're dead (all your life has gone), but actually you're off somewhere having an afterlife.
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:33 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
I'm not sure that "Afterlife" (as in the thread title) is the same as life after death. The concept of "Afterlife" is that everyone thinks you're dead (all your life has gone), but actually you're off somewhere having an afterlife.
It's practically (except for ufology) a universally accepted concept, although the particulars are what get tricky.
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:42 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by RobRoy View Post
It's practically (except for ufology) a universally accepted concept, although the particulars are what get tricky.

Fair comment. So for an afterlife to qualify as genuine we need at least two conditions then:

1. To have been presumed dead ( clinically ) in this reality ( universe ).
2. To have been moved to some other location, presumably in some other reality analagous to Valhalla where we continue living.

Do these conditions seem to agree with you?
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:44 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by RobRoy View Post
It's practically (except for ufology) a universally accepted concept, although the particulars are what get tricky.
Yes, I realised I wasn't being precise enough and edited my post.
The distinction between "the Afterlife" and "life after death" is the perspective you look at it from.
Afterlife being from the perspective of those still alive.
Life after death being from the perspective of the one who's actually having a life after death.

But the main thrust is that the people left alive perceive the person to be dead even if they believe that person has gone somewhere else and there is a dead body for proof of death.

It certainly doesn't cover what ufology is trying to pass off as afterlife.
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:44 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
Fair comment. So for an afterlife to qualify as genuine we need at least two conditions then:

1. To be dead in this reality
2. To have been moved to some other location, presumably in some other reality analagous to Valhalla.

Do these conditions seem to agree with you?
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:45 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by ufology View Post
Fair comment. So for an afterlife to qualify as genuine we need at least two conditions then:

1. To have been presumed dead ( clinically ) in this reality ( universe ).
2. To have been moved to some other location, presumably in some other reality analagous to Valhalla.

Do these conditions seem to agree with you?
Allow me to jog your memory.

So again:
1 - Apologize for insulting me
2 - Admit where you've been wrong
3 - Actually start having a discussion, rather than arguing your own point of view for arguments sake
Then we might start having a “civil discussion”.*


*Clearly, you missed that last part, twice now, so I've reposted again.
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:47 AM   #395
RobRoy
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Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
It certainly doesn't cover what ufology is trying to pass off as afterlife.
Sorry, I was actually agreeing with you. The term ufology is trying to pass off isn't the generally accepted term for "afterlife" which was, and remains, the thrust of the thread. We're on the same page. I was actually just lending additional support to your post.

Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:54 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by RobRoy View Post
Sorry, I was actually agreeing with you. The term ufology is trying to pass off isn't the generally accepted term for "afterlife" which was, and remains, the thrust of the thread. We're on the same page. I was actually just lending additional support to your post.

Sorry for the confusion.
Everything in the world is good.
I too apologise for any confusion. I knew you weren't disagreeing. I was just clarifying my self further. I thought my post preceding that one was a little clumsy.

The addition of my comment about ufology was just because I knew he wouldn't see it*.



* Unless someone quoted it.
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Old 29th February 2012, 11:05 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
Everything in the world is good.
I too apologise for any confusion. I knew you weren't disagreeing. I was just clarifying my self further. I thought my post preceding that one was a little clumsy.

The addition of my comment about ufology was just because I knew he wouldn't see it*.



* Unless someone quoted it.
I quoted it, so likely it was seen.
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Old 29th February 2012, 11:06 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
ftfy

You haven't really "fixed" anything, just restated the position with a slightly different perspective. For the sake of discussion it amounts to about the same thing either way. So fine, let's say we have met those two conditions, are we in agreement that such would constitute a genuine afterlife ... or is there something else we are missing? For example is a mythological, supernatural or religious component a strict requirement? Or would some other reality that facilitates atheism like this one still be sufficient?
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Old 29th February 2012, 11:14 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Porterboy View Post
One thing that he makes very clear though is that if any part of our consciousness survives the death of our physical body then it would be mentally very different to what we are today, as I said to UFOlogy above.
I missed that part: can you transcribe his words, or give the time-stamp where he says that?
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Old 29th February 2012, 11:21 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
I missed that part: can you transcribe his words, or give the time-stamp where he says that?

I just watched it again. Harris didn't say that. How would he know, anyway?
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