ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags james millette , kevin ryan , Niels Harrit , paint chips , richard gage , steven jones , wtc

Reply
Old 29th February 2012, 11:25 AM   #1
chrismohr
Master Poster
 
chrismohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,080
WTC Dust Study Feb 29, 2012 by Dr. James Millette

Link to James Millette's preliminary WTC Dust study:

High Res:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf

Low Res:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911..._030112web.pdf


In the summer of 2011, after finishing my 22 respectful YouTube rebuttals of Richard Gage’s Blueprint for Truth (keywords chrismohr911), I decided to see if I could organize an independent study of the World Trade Center dust to find out if thermitic materials could be found. Not being a chemist, I couldn't make a truly independent analysis of the data found in the Bentham paper alleging the discovery of unignited thematic material by Niels Harrit, Steven Jones, Kevin Ryan and others: “Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe, The Open Chemical Physics Journal, Vol 2, 2009,”

http://www.benthamscience.com/open/t...001/7TOCPJ.SGM

While I am very skeptical of claims of controlled demolition on 9/11, I’m no scientist, and I can’t independently judge the merits of this Bentham article. What if they did find thermitic materials? I wanted to see if their evidence could stand up to scientific testing. So I began to ask, what would it take to do an independent test of the dust? Some people said that for a few hundred dollars, a lab could easily test the dust. Kevin Ryan told me it would not be so easy, and he turned out to be right. He seemed to indicate he would be reluctant to provide samples of his own dust, so eventually I decided to look for a lab which:

1) Knew a protocol for searching for unignited thermitic materials in dust
2) Did not put down the idea as ridiculous or a waste of time
3) Had access to WTC dust
4) Would not just run whatever test their lab could do just to make a few hundred dollars (they had to know what they were doing and have the equipment to do it)

Finally, for my part I decided not to tell the researcher how to do his/her job. I would simply ask if they could look for unignited thermitic materials in the dust, and if so, what protocol would they suggest and how much would it cost?

The search was not easy. I contacted 24 or 25 forensic experts, laboratories, universities, fire safety experts, etc. I broadcast out a general request to refer me to someone who could do this.

Eventually, I was recommended to Dr. James Millette of MVA Scientific Consultants near Atlanta. He had all the qualifications: 1.) He had a lab that could do multiple tests. 2.) He had access to WTC dust (Kevin Ryan would not be likely to release any of his own samples) 3.) He was genuinely openminded. I asked him if he believed there was thermitic material in the dust and he said he wouldn’t know until he did the tests. He openly acknowledged that no one in the traditional scientific community has seriously investigated this question. I asked him point blank what would happen if he found thermitic materials in the dust and he said he was used to giving forensic evidence that contradicted the expectations of the people who had hired him. He is an independent scientist. “If I find it I’ll publish it.” Many 9/11 Truth activists have told me, “at last, someone is taking the Bentham study seriously! At last, a real independent investigation!”

Dr. Millette is a member of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences and works with internationally known microscopy experts. An ad hoc international team of these experts, as well as architects, engineers, and other specialists, contributed their expertise to this study. Dr. Millette had already glanced at the red-gray chips in WTC dust but never did a thorough study of them. He decided to do this study for only $1000, although the value of all his research was much more.

I thought he just might be my guy. In case things didn’t work out, I called him “Lab Guy” for a month or so on the JREF blog and other correspondences. I checked him out, and got recommendations from a top arson expert and fire safety expert.

Why did he do such a thorough study at such a low cost? He is doing a lot more with this study than just doing a job and reporting his findings. It was the centerpiece of three major presentations by his lab at the American Association of Forensic Scientists 2012 convention:

http://www.mvainc.com/2012/01/13/feb...nnual-meeting/

In addition, the results will soon be published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

Some people on the 9/11 Truth side were suspicious of him. I’ve summarized those suspicions on my Richard Gage debate thread starting near the bottom of this page:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...212725&page=86

On that thread I am willing, on a limited basis, to answer sincere questions about my decision to choose Dr. Millette for this study. I am not interested in endless rounds of attacks and will not participate in such an exercise on that thread or anywhere.

However, this thread here is about summarizing and discussing the scientific findings of this report. If you have questions about Jim Millette’s credibility, those are being dealt with on the other thread (link above). This is a moderated thread, so any questions about anyone’s honesty or integrity etc. will be referred to the other thread. Here is Dr. James Millette’s promise to us:

“Chris, I can assure you that we will proceed in an objective, scientific manner and report what we find. At present, I have no opinion as to whether we will find any active thermitic material. All I can say is that to this point in time we have not found any during the general particle characterizations we have done. Because we have not focused on this particular question in the past analyses, we are proceeding with a careful, forensic scientific study focused on the red-gray chips in a number of WTC dust samples. When I present the data, it will be in front of critical members of the forensic science community and when I publish, it will be in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. I am an independent researcher without an interest in how the research results come out. Our laboratory is certified under ISO 17025 which includes audits of our accuracy, reliability and integrity. I am a member of the American Academy of Forensic Scientists and have sworn to uphold the high ethical standards of the organization. I do not see anything in our article that he linked… to suggest that we were publishing misleading data.” Jim Millette

I submit to you that Dr. Millette has kept his promise.

The next several posts contain the results of Dr. James Millette’s study. Onward!
__________________
20 videos rebutting Blueprint for Truth YouTube keyword chrismohr911 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC3JgWkNNIQ
Playlists http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
and http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
WTC Dust study http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf Hundreds more links and info both sides: http:www.chrismohr911.com

Last edited by LashL; 7th March 2012 at 08:12 AM. Reason: To add high res version as requested.
chrismohr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 11:32 AM   #2
chrismohr
Master Poster
 
chrismohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,080
Jim Millette's Dust Study: Introduction and Methods

Progress Report of Results: MVA9119
Analysis of Red/Gray Chips in WTC Dust

Introduction


This report summarizes the results to date of the analyses of red/gray chips found in samples of dust generated by the World Trade Center (WTC) disaster of 11 September 2001. MVA Scientific Consultants was requested by Mr. Chris Mohr of Classical Guide to scientifically study red/gray chips from WTC dust that matched those presented in a paper by Harrit et al., 2009,1 which concluded that thermitic material was present in the WTC dust. Mr. Mohr was unable to gain access to any samples used in the Harrit study so four samples were chosen from the archives of MVA Scientific Consultants. These dust samples had been collected within a month of 11 September 2001 and sent to MVA for different projects. They are identified by the sample numbers shown below and on the New York City map shown in Figure 1. The red/gray chips discussed in this report were analyzed during the period from 18 November 2011 to 20 February 2012. Some analytical results characterizing the particles in the dust from two of the samples (4808-L1616 and 9119-X0135) had been previously published in the scientific literature. 2,3

Fig. 1
MVA # Date Collected Sample Location Map No.
4808-L1616 28 September 2001 22 Cortlandt St. 1
4795-L1560 22 September 2001 Murray & Church St. 2
5230-M3451 15-16 September 2001 49 Ann St. 3 9119-X0135
07 October 2001 33 Maiden Lane 4

Methods

In order to confirm that the samples chosen had the characteristics of WTC dust, the samples were examined by stereomicroscope and by polarized light microscopy (PLM) according to the procedures described in Turner et al., 20054 (Figures 2 and 3). The analytical procedures used to characterize the red/gray chips were based on the criteria for the particles of interest in accordance with the recommended guidelines for forensic identification of explosives5 and the ASTM standard guide for forensic paint analysis and comparison.6 The criteria for the particles of interest as described by Harrit et al.1 are: small red/gray chips attracted by a magnet and showing an elemental composition primarily of aluminum, silicon and iron as determined by scanning electron microscopy and x-ray energy dispersive spectroscopy (SEM-EDS) (Figure 4). The spectrum may also contain small peaks related to other elements. To that end, the following protocol was performed on each of the four WTC dust samples.

1. The dust sample particles contained in a plastic bag were drawn across a magnet and those attracted to the magnet were collected (Figure 5).
9119ProgressReport022912s Page 3 of 21
2. Using a stereomicroscope, particle chips showing the characteristic red/gray were removed and washed in clean water.
3. The particles were dried and mounted on a carbon adhesive film on an SEM stub and photographed (Figure 5).
4. Analysis of the surfaces of the chips was done by SEM-EDS at 20 kV without any added conductive coating (Figures 6 and 7).

Red/gray particles that matched the criteria (attracted to a magnet and an EDS Al-Si-Fe spectrum) were then considered particles of interest and subjected to additional analytical testing. The additional tests included: Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy (FTIR); SEM-EDS of cross-sections; low temperature ashing and residue analysis by transmission electron microscopy (TEM) with selected area electron diffraction (SAED) and EDS; muffle furnace ashing and residue analysis by PLM and TEM-SAED-EDS; ultra-microtome sectioning of the red layer and analysis by TEM-SAED-EDS; and solvent tests.

Stereomicroscopy was done using either an Olympus SZ-40 stereomicroscope or a Wild M5-49066 stereomicroscope.

Polarized light microscope (PLM) examination of the dusts and ashed residue was done with an Olympus BH-2 PLM or an aus Jena Jenapol PLM.

Scanning electron microscope (SEM) analysis of the surfaces of red/gray chips was done using a JEOL Model JSM-6490LV SEM coupled with a Thermo Scientific Noran System SIX x-ray energy dispersive spectrometer (EDS). Digital x-ray images and phase mapping was also done with this instrument.
Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy (FTIR) was performed with a SensIR FTIR equipped with a diamond ATR objective and attached to an Olympus BX-51 compound microscope.

Cross-sections of the chips of interest were made with clean scalpel blades. The analysis of cross-sections was done with a JEOL Model JSM-6500F field emission SEM with a Thermo Scientific Noran System SIX EDS system.
Low-temperature ashing (LTA) is an alternative to using solvents to extract inorganic constituents from an organic film or coating.6 LTA of the chips of interest was done using an SPI Plasma Prep II plasma asher. LTA was performed for time periods of
30 minutes to 1 hour depending on the size of the chip. The gray layer remained intact and the red layer residue was collected in clean water and drops of the suspension were placed on carbon-film TEM grids. After drying, the particulate was analyzed using a Philips CM120 TEM capable of SAED and equipped with an Oxford EDS system.

Chips of interest were ashed in a muffle furnace using a NEY Temperature Programmable furnace operated at 400oC for 1 hour. The gray layer remained intact and the red layer residue was prepared as described above and analyzed using a Philips CM120 TEM-SAED-EDS.


Ultra-thin sections of a red layer were cut using a Reichert-Jung Ultracut E Ultramicrotome with a diamond knife. The ultra-thin sections were placed directly on TEM grids and analyzed using a Philips EM 420 TEM-SAED-EDS.
Samples of red/gray chips were placed in several solvents overnight and then subjected to ultrasonic agitation to determine if the solvents could dissolve the epoxy binder and liberate the internal particles. The solvents included methylene chloride, methyl ethyl ketone (MEK), and two commercial paint strippers used for epoxy resins. The commercial paint strippers, Klean-Strip KS-3 Premium Stripper and Jasco Premium Paint and Epoxy Remover, contain methylene chloride, methanol and mineral spirits. One red/gray chip was subjected to 55 hours of submersion in MEK, then dried and coated with a thin layer of gold for conductivity. The red layer was analyzed by SEM-EDS analysis using an advanced x-ray phase mapping technique. The technique uses a multivariate statistical analysis program to find spectral-similar regions in a spectral imaging acquisition. It analyzes the spectrum at each pixel location and then groups the pixels with similar spectra into principal components or phases.
__________________
20 videos rebutting Blueprint for Truth YouTube keyword chrismohr911 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC3JgWkNNIQ
Playlists http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
and http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
WTC Dust study http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf Hundreds more links and info both sides: http:www.chrismohr911.com
chrismohr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 11:39 AM   #3
chrismohr
Master Poster
 
chrismohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,080
James Millette Study: Results, Discussion, Conclusions

Results

The composition of the four samples of dust chosen for study were consistent with WTC dust previously published 2,3 (Appendix A).

Red/gray chips that had the same morphology and appearance as those reported by Harrit et al.1, and fitting the criteria of being attracted by a magnet and having the SEM-EDS x-ray elemental spectra described in their paper (Gray: Fe, Red: C,O, Al, Si, Fe) were found in the WTC dust from all four locations examined. The red layers were in the range of 15 to 30 micrometers thick. The gray layers were in the range of 10 to
50 micrometers thick (Appendix B).

The FTIR spectra of the red layer were consistent with reference spectra of an epoxy resin and kaolin clay (Figure 8) (Appendix C).

The SEM-EDS and backscattered electron (BE) analysis of the cross-sections of the gray layer in the red/gray chip showed it to be primarily iron consistent with a carbon steel. The cross-sections of the red layer showed the presence of equant-shaped particles of iron consistent with iron oxide pigment and plates of aluminum/silicon consistent with reference samples of kaolin. The thinnest kaolin plates were on the order of 6 nm with many sets of plates less than 1 micrometer thick. Small x-ray peaks of other elements were sometimes present. The particles were in a carbon-based matrix (Figures 9 through 14) (Appendix D).

TEM-SAED-EDS analysis of the residue after low temperature ashing showed equant-shaped particles of iron consistent with iron oxide pigment and plates of kaolin clay. Small numbers of titanium oxide particles consistent with titanium dioxide pigment were also found (Figure 15) (Appendix E).


PLM analysis of the residue from red/gray chips after muffle furnace ashing at 400oC for 1 hour showed very fine red particles consistent with synthetic hematite (iron oxide) pigment particles (Figure 16). PLM also found possible clay present based on a micro-chemical clay-stain test. TEM-SAED-EDS analysis of another portion of the same muffle furnace residue showed equant-shaped particles of iron consistent with iron oxide pigment, plates of kaolin clay and some aciniform aggregates of carbon soot consistent with incomplete ashing of a carbon-based binder (Figure 17). The SAED pattern of the kaolin particles (Figure 18) matched the kaolin pattern shown in the McCrone Particle Atlas8 (Appendix E). The values for the d-spacings determined for the diffraction patterns matched those produced by reference kaolin samples.

TEM-SAED-EDS analysis of a thin section of the red layer showed equant-shaped particles of iron consistent with iron oxide pigments and plates of kaolin clay (Figures 19 and 20). The matrix material of the red coating layer was carbon-based. Small numbers of titanium oxide particles consistent with titanium dioxide pigment and some calcium particles were also found (Appendix F).

The solvents had no effect on the gray iron/steel layer. Although the solvents softened the red layers on the chips, none of the solvents tested dissolved the epoxy resin and released the particles within. SEM-EDS phase mapping (using multivariate statistical analysis) of the red layer after exposure to MEK for 55 hours did not show evidence of individual aluminum particles (Appendix G).

In summary, red/gray chips with the same morphological characteristics, elemental spectra and magnetic attraction as those shown in Harrit et al.1 were found in WTC dust samples from four different locations than those examined by Harrit, et al.1 The gray side is consistent with carbon steel. The red side contains the elements: C, O, Al, Si, and Fe with small amounts of other elements such as Ti and Ca. Based on the infrared absorption (FTIR) data, the C/O matrix material is an epoxy resin. Based on the optical and electron microscopy data, the Fe/O particles are an iron oxide pigment consisting of crystalline grains in the 100-200 nm range and the Al/Si particles are kaolin clay plates that are less than a micrometer thick. There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminum particles detected by PLM, SEM-EDS, or TEM-SAED-EDS, during the analyses of the red layers in their original form or after sample preparation by ashing, thin sectioning or following MEK treatment.

Discussion


The Encyclopedia of Explosives9 describes thermite as essentially a mixture of powdered ferric oxide and powdered or granular aluminum. There are two sets of ingredients listed for thermite in Crippen’s book on explosives identification.10 The first is iron oxide and aluminum powder and the second is magnesium powder, ferric oxide, and aluminum powder. Nano-thermite (thermatic nanocomposite energetic material) has been studied in the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California. A TEM image of a thin section of that material was published by R. Simpson11 in 2000 and
shows material that is made up of approximately 2 nanometer iron oxide particles and approximately 30 nanometer aluminum metal spheres (Figure 21).
According to the Federation of Societies for Coatings Technology, kaolin (also known as aluminum silicate or china clay) is a platy or lamellar pigment that is used extensively as a pigment in many segments of the paint industry.12 It is a natural mineral (kaolinite) which is found in vast beds in many parts of the world.13 Iron oxide pigments are also used extensively in paints and coatings.13,14 Both kaolin and iron oxide pigments have been used in paints and coatings for many years.13,14 Epoxy resins were introduced into coatings in approximately 194715 and are found in a number of specially designed protective coatings on metal substrates.

In forensic studies, paints and coatings often must be broken down so that the components of the entire coating product can be studied individually. Epoxy resins are formed from the reaction of two different chemicals which produces a polymer that is heavily cross-linked. Epoxy resins can be especially difficult to dissolve. Organic solvents, including those sold commercially for epoxy paint/coating stripping, were found to soften the red layer of the red/gray chips but did not dissolve the epoxy resin sufficiently so particles within the coating could be dispersed for direct examination. In this study no organic solvent was found to release particles from within the epoxy resin and it was necessary to use low temperature ashing to eliminate the epoxy resin matrix and extract the component parts of the coating. The other procedures generally used to examine component particles within a coating without extraction (cross-sections and thin sections) were also applied in this study.

Conclusions


The red/gray chips found in the WTC dust at four sites in New York City are consistent with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin that contains primarily iron oxide and kaolin clay pigments.

There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminum particles of any size in the red/gray chips, therefore the red layer of the red/gray chips is not thermite or nano-thermite.

Notes on the Source of the Red/Gray Chips


At the time of this progress report, the identity of the product from which the red/gray chips were generated has not been determined. The composition of the red/gray chips found in this study (epoxy resin with iron oxide and kaolin pigments) does not match the formula for the primer paint used on iron column members in the World Trade Center towers (Table 1).16 Although both the red/gray chips and the primer paint contain iron oxide pigment particles, the primer is an alkyd-based resin with zinc yellow (zinc chromate) and diatomaceous silica along with some other proprietary (Tnemec ) pigments. No diatoms were found during the analysis of the red/gray chips. Some
small EDS peaks of zinc and chromium were detected in some samples but the amount detected was inconsistent with the 20% level of zinc chromate in the primer formula.

Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) contain some information about product materials. According to the MSDS currently listed on the Tnemec website,17 55 out of the 177 different Tnemec coating products contain one or two of the three major components in the red layer: epoxy resin, iron oxide and/or kaolin (aluminum silicate) pigments. However, none of the 177 different coatings are a match for the red layer coating found in this study.
__________________
20 videos rebutting Blueprint for Truth YouTube keyword chrismohr911 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC3JgWkNNIQ
Playlists http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
and http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
WTC Dust study http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf Hundreds more links and info both sides: http:www.chrismohr911.com
chrismohr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 11:43 AM   #4
chrismohr
Master Poster
 
chrismohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,080
Dust Study: References

References

1. Harrit, N.H., Farrer, J., Jones, S.E., Ryan, K.R., Legge, F.M., Farnsworth, D., Roberts, G., Gourle, J.R., and Larsen, B.R., "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe", The Open Chemical Physics Journal, 2009, 2, 7-31.
2. Lioy, P.J, Weisel, C.P., Millette, J.R., Eisenreich, S., Vallero, D., Offenberg, J., Buckley, B., Turpin, B., Zhong, M., Cohen, M.D., Prophete, C., Yang, I., Stiles, R., Chee, G., Johnson, W., Porcja, R., Alimokhtari, S., Hale, R.C., Weschler, C., and Chen, L.C., "Characterization of the Dust/Smoke Aerosol that Settled East of the World Trade Center (WTC) in Lower Manhattan after the Collapse of the WTC 11 September 2001", Environmental Health Perspectives, Vol. 110, No. 7, 703-714, July 2002.
3. Millette, J.R., Boltin, R., Few, P. and Turner, Jr., W., "Microscopical Studies of World Trade Center Disaster Dust Particles", Microscope, 50(1): 29-35, 2002.
4. Turner, W.L., J.R. Millette, W.R. Boltin, and T.J. Hopen, A Standard Approach to the Characterization of Common Indoor Dust Constituents. Microscope 53(4):169-177. 2005.
5. TWGFEX Laboratory Explosion Group, Recommended Guidelines for Forensic Identification of Intact Explosives and Recommended Guidelines for Forensic Identification of Post-Blast Explosive Residues (Rev. 8 - 2009), Technical Working Group for Fire and Explosions, National Institute of Justice - Office of Justice Programs, U.S. Department of Justice. http://www.ncfs.org/twgfex/docs.
6. ASTM E1610-02, Standard Guide for Forensic Paint Analysis and Comparison. ASTM –International, West Conshohocken, PA. Reapproved 2008.
7. COMPASS multivariate statistical analysis software program for Noran System Six x-ray system. Minoru Suzuki, Thermo Fisher Scientific, Yokohama, Japan; Pat Camus, Ph.D., Thermo Fisher Scientific, Madison, WI, USA. Application Note: 51220. 2008.
8. McCrone, W.C. and Delly, J.G. The Particle Atlas, 2nd Ed. Ann Arbor Press. Vol. 3, p. 584. 1973.
9. Kaye, S.M. “Thermite”, Encyclopedia of Explosives and Related Items, Vol. 9, PATR 2700, US Army Armament Research and Development Command, Dover, New Jersey, 1980, (available from NTIS, US Department of Commerce, Springfield, Virginia 22161), page T189.
9119ProgressReport022912s Page 8 of 21
10. Crippen, J.B. Explosives and Chemical Weapons Identification. CRC Taylor &
Francis, Boca Raton, FL, 2006, p.149.
11. Simpson, R., Nanoscale Chemistry Yields Better Explosives, Science and Technology Review. Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory October, 2000.
12. Smith, A. “Inorganic Primer Pigments”, Federation Series on Coating
Technology, Federation of Societies for Coatings Technology, Philadelphia, PA. 1988.
13. Gettens, R.J. and Stout, G. L., “Painting Materials”, Dover Publications, 1966.
14. Petraco, N. and Kubic, T., Color Atlas and Manual of Microscopy for Criminalists, Chemists, and Conservators. CRC Press, Baca Raton, 2004.
15. Prane, J.A., “Introduction to Polymers and Resins”, Federation Series on
Coating Technology, Federation of Societies for Coatings Technology,
Philadelphia, PA. 1986.
16. Sramek, T.F.: Correspondence between Pittsburgh-Des Moines Steel Co. and
R. M. Monti, Port of New York Authority, giving clarification and attaching a
product sheet for Tnemec 69 and 99 column paints, Nov 22, 1967. As cited in:
Banovic, S.W. and Foecke, T., Assessment of Structural Steel from the World Trade Center Towers, Part IV: Experimental Techniques to Assess Possible Exposure to High –Temperature Excursions. Journal of Failure Analysis and Prevention. 6(5):103-120. Oct 2006.
17. www.tnemec.com [ last accessed on Feb. 26, 2012].

Table 1. Composition of Primer Paint on the World Trade Center Towers according to T. F. Sramek16
Pigment Iron Oxide 35.9%
Zinc Yellow (Zinc Chromate13) 20.3%
Tnemec pigment (proprietary composition) 33.7%
Diatomaceous silica 10.1%
Vehicle Soya alkyd resin solids 16.5%
Hard Resin 2.8%
Raw Linseed Oil 35.1%
Bodied Linseed Oil 6.4%
Suspension agents 2.2%
Driers and antiskin 4.8%
Thinners 32.3%
__________________
20 videos rebutting Blueprint for Truth YouTube keyword chrismohr911 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC3JgWkNNIQ
Playlists http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
and http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
WTC Dust study http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf Hundreds more links and info both sides: http:www.chrismohr911.com
chrismohr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 11:51 AM   #5
invr4get911
New Blood
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 13
Thanks for taking this on and sharing the results, Chris.

Looks like THE main question was in deed answered.
invr4get911 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 11:52 AM   #6
Quad4_72
AI-EE-YAH!
 
Quad4_72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,354
Wow. Very good work. Of course, the twoof movement will completely discredit it, as it does not fall in line with their beliefs. Still, well done.
__________________
Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
Quad4_72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 11:52 AM   #7
chrismohr
Master Poster
 
chrismohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,080
List of Figures and Diagrams in WTC Dust Report

Here is a list of appendices and diagrams that are part of the original report. The full report with photos will be posted very soon on the MVA Scientific Consultants website.

Figure 1. Sample Locations.
Figure 2. Example of the WTC dust. Sample L1560 - Murray & Church St.
9119ProgressReport022912s Page 10 of 21
Figure 3. Example of the WTC dust as seen with PLM showing common components of glass fibers, cementitious material and soot. Sample L1560 - Murray & Church St.
Figure 4. SEM-EDS spectral criteria for red/gray chips from Harrit, et al., 2009.
Figure 4. An example of separating particles with a magnet. Sample M3451 – Ann St.
Figure 5. An example of red/gray chips mounted on a carbon stub.
Sample M3451 – Ann St.
Figure 6. An example of SEM analysis of red/gray chips mounted on a carbon stub.
The particle numbers are shown that correspond to EDS spectra in Figure 7.
Figure 7. SEM-EDS spectra for particles 1, 2 and 3 in Figure 6.
Figure 8. Comparison of FTIR spectrum from red side of a red/gray chip showing the match with kaolin and epoxy resin references. Sample L1560.
Figure 9. BE image of a cross-section of a red (top)/gray (bottom) chip.
Figure 10. Secondary electron (SE) image of a cross-section of a
red (top)/gray (bottom) chip.
Figure 11. SEM-EDS spectrum from Spot 1 on the red layer (top) in Figure 10.
Figure 12. SEM-EDS spectrum from Spot 2 on the gray layer (bottom) in Figure 10.
Figure 13. Combined SE and BE image showing bright iron particles and aluminum-silicon plates in the carbon-based matrix.
Figure 14. SE image showing books of aluminum/silicon plates.
Figure 15. TEM image of residue after low temperature ashing. Particles: ‘a’ is kaolin, ‘b’ is iron oxide, ‘c’ is titanium dioxide, ‘d’ is kaolin on edge, ‘e’ is iron oxide.
Fig 15a. EDS of ‘a’. Fig 15b. EDS of ‘b’ Fig 15c. EDS of ‘c’
Fig 15d.
__________________
20 videos rebutting Blueprint for Truth YouTube keyword chrismohr911 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC3JgWkNNIQ
Playlists http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
and http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
WTC Dust study http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf Hundreds more links and info both sides: http:www.chrismohr911.com
chrismohr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 11:57 AM   #8
Spektator
Dog Who Laughs
 
Spektator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,516
Thanks, Chris, and thanks to Dr. Millette.
__________________
Even when you keep piling them up, lies never compress to become the truth.
Spektator is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 12:13 PM   #9
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 17,530
This is, to the letter, what the truth movement has been asking for since its inception. It is now up to them to prove that they were honestly looking for this or not.

Excellent work, Chris.
__________________
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.

-Leonard Nimoy
RIP. Thank you.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 12:15 PM   #10
Edx
Philosopher
 
Edx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,641
Clearly he is in on it.

None of them will change their minds on this. Anyone who doesnt agree with them is lying.
Edx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 12:29 PM   #11
332nd
Penultimate Amazing
 
332nd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,913
Thanks for doing the leg work on this Chris.

As far as the truthers, while few, if any, will even do so much as reexamine their position, at the very least its a good example of scientific research.
__________________
The poster formerly known as Redtail
332nd is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 12:32 PM   #12
Kent1
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,179
Thanks! Looks like great work. Will look this over in more detail tonight.
Kent1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 12:39 PM   #13
moorea34
Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 157
Jim Millette does not know the Laclede Primer Paint ?

moorea34 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 12:51 PM   #14
sheeplesnshills
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,706
Chris, Good job.
sheeplesnshills is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 12:54 PM   #15
tmd2_1
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,657
Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
Results

The composition of the four samples of dust chosen for study were consistent with WTC dust previously published 2,3 (Appendix A).

Red/gray chips that had the same morphology and appearance as those reported by Harrit et al.1, and fitting the criteria of being attracted by a magnet and having the SEM-EDS x-ray elemental spectra described in their paper (Gray: Fe, Red: C,O, Al, Si, Fe) were found in the WTC dust from all four locations examined. The red layers were in the range of 15 to 30 micrometers thick. The gray layers were in the range of 10 to
50 micrometers thick (Appendix B).

The FTIR spectra of the red layer were consistent with reference spectra of an epoxy resin and kaolin clay (Figure 8) (Appendix C).

The SEM-EDS and backscattered electron (BE) analysis of the cross-sections of the gray layer in the red/gray chip showed it to be primarily iron consistent with a carbon steel. The cross-sections of the red layer showed the presence of equant-shaped particles of iron consistent with iron oxide pigment and plates of aluminum/silicon consistent with reference samples of kaolin. The thinnest kaolin plates were on the order of 6 nm with many sets of plates less than 1 micrometer thick. Small x-ray peaks of other elements were sometimes present. The particles were in a carbon-based matrix (Figures 9 through 14) (Appendix D).

TEM-SAED-EDS analysis of the residue after low temperature ashing showed equant-shaped particles of iron consistent with iron oxide pigment and plates of kaolin clay. Small numbers of titanium oxide particles consistent with titanium dioxide pigment were also found (Figure 15) (Appendix E).


PLM analysis of the residue from red/gray chips after muffle furnace ashing at 400oC for 1 hour showed very fine red particles consistent with synthetic hematite (iron oxide) pigment particles (Figure 16). PLM also found possible clay present based on a micro-chemical clay-stain test. TEM-SAED-EDS analysis of another portion of the same muffle furnace residue showed equant-shaped particles of iron consistent with iron oxide pigment, plates of kaolin clay and some aciniform aggregates of carbon soot consistent with incomplete ashing of a carbon-based binder (Figure 17). The SAED pattern of the kaolin particles (Figure 18) matched the kaolin pattern shown in the McCrone Particle Atlas8 (Appendix E). The values for the d-spacings determined for the diffraction patterns matched those produced by reference kaolin samples.

TEM-SAED-EDS analysis of a thin section of the red layer showed equant-shaped particles of iron consistent with iron oxide pigments and plates of kaolin clay (Figures 19 and 20). The matrix material of the red coating layer was carbon-based. Small numbers of titanium oxide particles consistent with titanium dioxide pigment and some calcium particles were also found (Appendix F).

The solvents had no effect on the gray iron/steel layer. Although the solvents softened the red layers on the chips, none of the solvents tested dissolved the epoxy resin and released the particles within. SEM-EDS phase mapping (using multivariate statistical analysis) of the red layer after exposure to MEK for 55 hours did not show evidence of individual aluminum particles (Appendix G).

In summary, red/gray chips with the same morphological characteristics, elemental spectra and magnetic attraction as those shown in Harrit et al.1 were found in WTC dust samples from four different locations than those examined by Harrit, et al.1 The gray side is consistent with carbon steel. The red side contains the elements: C, O, Al, Si, and Fe with small amounts of other elements such as Ti and Ca. Based on the infrared absorption (FTIR) data, the C/O matrix material is an epoxy resin. Based on the optical and electron microscopy data, the Fe/O particles are an iron oxide pigment consisting of crystalline grains in the 100-200 nm range and the Al/Si particles are kaolin clay plates that are less than a micrometer thick. There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminum particles detected by PLM, SEM-EDS, or TEM-SAED-EDS, during the analyses of the red layers in their original form or after sample preparation by ashing, thin sectioning or following MEK treatment.

Discussion


The Encyclopedia of Explosives9 describes thermite as essentially a mixture of powdered ferric oxide and powdered or granular aluminum. There are two sets of ingredients listed for thermite in Crippen’s book on explosives identification.10 The first is iron oxide and aluminum powder and the second is magnesium powder, ferric oxide, and aluminum powder. Nano-thermite (thermatic nanocomposite energetic material) has been studied in the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California. A TEM image of a thin section of that material was published by R. Simpson11 in 2000 and
shows material that is made up of approximately 2 nanometer iron oxide particles and approximately 30 nanometer aluminum metal spheres (Figure 21).
According to the Federation of Societies for Coatings Technology, kaolin (also known as aluminum silicate or china clay) is a platy or lamellar pigment that is used extensively as a pigment in many segments of the paint industry.12 It is a natural mineral (kaolinite) which is found in vast beds in many parts of the world.13 Iron oxide pigments are also used extensively in paints and coatings.13,14 Both kaolin and iron oxide pigments have been used in paints and coatings for many years.13,14 Epoxy resins were introduced into coatings in approximately 194715 and are found in a number of specially designed protective coatings on metal substrates.

In forensic studies, paints and coatings often must be broken down so that the components of the entire coating product can be studied individually. Epoxy resins are formed from the reaction of two different chemicals which produces a polymer that is heavily cross-linked. Epoxy resins can be especially difficult to dissolve. Organic solvents, including those sold commercially for epoxy paint/coating stripping, were found to soften the red layer of the red/gray chips but did not dissolve the epoxy resin sufficiently so particles within the coating could be dispersed for direct examination. In this study no organic solvent was found to release particles from within the epoxy resin and it was necessary to use low temperature ashing to eliminate the epoxy resin matrix and extract the component parts of the coating. The other procedures generally used to examine component particles within a coating without extraction (cross-sections and thin sections) were also applied in this study.

Conclusions


The red/gray chips found in the WTC dust at four sites in New York City are consistent with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin that contains primarily iron oxide and kaolin clay pigments.

There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminum particles of any size in the red/gray chips, therefore the red layer of the red/gray chips is not thermite or nano-thermite.

Notes on the Source of the Red/Gray Chips


At the time of this progress report, the identity of the product from which the red/gray chips were generated has not been determined. The composition of the red/gray chips found in this study (epoxy resin with iron oxide and kaolin pigments) does not match the formula for the primer paint used on iron column members in the World Trade Center towers (Table 1).16 Although both the red/gray chips and the primer paint contain iron oxide pigment particles, the primer is an alkyd-based resin with zinc yellow (zinc chromate) and diatomaceous silica along with some other proprietary (Tnemec ) pigments. No diatoms were found during the analysis of the red/gray chips. Some
small EDS peaks of zinc and chromium were detected in some samples but the amount detected was inconsistent with the 20% level of zinc chromate in the primer formula.

Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) contain some information about product materials. According to the MSDS currently listed on the Tnemec website,17 55 out of the 177 different Tnemec coating products contain one or two of the three major components in the red layer: epoxy resin, iron oxide and/or kaolin (aluminum silicate) pigments. However, none of the 177 different coatings are a match for the red layer coating found in this study.
To be clear at this time the source of the chips is unknown, but it is definitely not thermite or nano-thermite? Is that a fair statement?
tmd2_1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:03 PM   #16
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 14,782
Originally Posted by tmd2_1 View Post
To be clear at this time the source of the chips is unknown, but it is definitely not thermite or nano-thermite? Is that a fair statement?
I believe that it would be more clear if you were to say that the red/gray chips found in the WTC dust at four sites in New York City are consistent with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin, and the red layer of the red/gray chips is not thermite or nano-thermite. At this time, the manufacturer of the epoxy product is unknown, although another candidate that was been suggested elsewhere is LaClede Steel Company who painted the floor trusses with their own standard primer.
__________________
Mother Teresa, intercede for me, and God give me the grace to let this go and to forgive this person.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:08 PM   #17
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 23,299
Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
I believe that it would be more clear if you were to say that the red/gray chips found in the WTC dust at four sites in New York City are consistent with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin, and the red layer of the red/gray chips is not thermite or nano-thermite. At this time, the manufacturer of the epoxy product is unknown, although another candidate that was been suggested elsewhere is LaClede Steel Company who painted the floor trusses with their own standard primer.
You might want to add they matched the collection and preparation methods and the data included in the Harrit paper.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:08 PM   #18
tmd2_1
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,657
Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
I believe that it would be more clear if you were to say that the red/gray chips found in the WTC dust at four sites in New York City are consistent with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin, and the red layer of the red/gray chips is not thermite or nano-thermite. At this time, the manufacturer of the epoxy product is unknown, although another candidate that was been suggested elsewhere is LaClede Steel Company who painted the floor trusses with their own standard primer.
Of course I can completely see where you got that from this quote. "At the time of this progress report, the identity of the product from which the red/gray chips were generated has not been determined. The composition of the red/gray chips found in this study (epoxy resin with iron oxide and kaolin pigments) does not match the formula for the primer paint used on iron column members in the World Trade Center towers (Table 1).16" Makes perfect sense now.
tmd2_1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:11 PM   #19
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 23,299
Originally Posted by tmd2_1 View Post
Of course I can completely see where you got that from this quote. "At the time of this progress report, the identity of the product from which the red/gray chips were generated has not been determined. The composition of the red/gray chips found in this study (epoxy resin with iron oxide and kaolin pigments) does not match the formula for the primer paint used on iron column members in the World Trade Center towers (Table 1).16" Makes perfect sense now.
Do you have a problem with the methodology (or are you waiting for someone to tell you what to think)?
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:11 PM   #20
moorea34
Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 157
This is the paint:




Epoxy
Iron Oxyde
Kaolin

moorea34 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:13 PM   #21
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 14,782
Originally Posted by tmd2_1 View Post
Of course I can completely see where you got that from this quote. "At the time of this progress report, the identity of the product from which the red/gray chips were generated has not been determined. The composition of the red/gray chips found in this study (epoxy resin with iron oxide and kaolin pigments) does not match the formula for the primer paint used on iron column members in the World Trade Center towers (Table 1).16" Makes perfect sense now.
"At this time, the manufacturer of the epoxy product is unknown, although another candidate that was been suggested elsewhere is LaClede Steel Company who painted the floor trusses with their own standard primer."

Embiggened for you. Thanks for agreeing with this part:

I believe that it would be more clear if you were to say that the red/gray chips found in the WTC dust at four sites in New York City are consistent with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin, and the red layer of the red/gray chips is not thermite or nano-thermite.
__________________
Mother Teresa, intercede for me, and God give me the grace to let this go and to forgive this person.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:16 PM   #22
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 23,299
Originally Posted by tmd2_1 View Post
To be clear at this time the source of the chips is unknown, but it is definitely not thermite or nano-thermite? Is that a fair statement?
Let me help you:
Quote:
There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminum particles of any size in the red/gray chips, therefore the red layer of the red/gray chips is not thermite or nano-thermite.
Harrit also does not document any of this crucial element.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:20 PM   #23
tmd2_1
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,657
Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
"At this time, the manufacturer of the epoxy product is unknown, although another candidate that was been suggested elsewhere is LaClede Steel Company who painted the floor trusses with their own standard primer."

Embiggened for you. Thanks for agreeing with this part:

I believe that it would be more clear if you were to say that the red/gray chips found in the WTC dust at four sites in New York City are consistent with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin, and the red layer of the red/gray chips is not thermite or nano-thermite.
Please point out to me where that is in any of Chris' posts. Thank you.
tmd2_1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:21 PM   #24
tmd2_1
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,657
Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Let me help you:


Harrit also does not document any of this crucial element.
Not my question.
tmd2_1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:23 PM   #25
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 14,782
Originally Posted by tmd2_1 View Post
Please point out to me where that is in any of Chris' posts. Thank you.
Hi, that is why I put elsewhere in my post. Thanks.

We'll just leave it at this:

I believe that it would be more clear if you were to say that the red/gray chips found in the WTC dust at four sites in New York City are consistent with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin, and the red layer of the red/gray chips is not thermite or nano-thermite.
__________________
Mother Teresa, intercede for me, and God give me the grace to let this go and to forgive this person.

Last edited by The Big Dog; 29th February 2012 at 01:26 PM. Reason: My mind was "elsewhere"
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:33 PM   #26
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 23,299
Originally Posted by tmd2_1 View Post
Not my question.
So, what is your question? If it pertains to the origin of the samples it was already covered.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

Last edited by DGM; 29th February 2012 at 01:36 PM.
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:34 PM   #27
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 3,427
Nice work Chris, and please pass on my thanks to Dr. Millette when you have the opportunity. I have much respect for the work you two put in to see this testing from beginning to end. Well done.
__________________
"All acts performed in the world begin in the imagination."--Barbara Grizzuti Harrison

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:35 PM   #28
tmd2_1
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,657
Originally Posted by DGM View Post
So, what is your question? If it pertains yo the origin of the samples it was already covered.
Last time I'm posting it. To be clear at this time the source of the chips is unknown, but it is definitely not thermite or nano-thermite? Is that a fair statement?
tmd2_1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:38 PM   #29
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 23,299
Originally Posted by tmd2_1 View Post
Last time I'm posting it. To be clear at this time the source of the chips is unknown, but it is definitely not thermite or nano-thermite? Is that a fair statement?
No (On the origin) Yes (on the results)

The origin is documented to be in the same area as the Harrit paper.

Quote:
Fig. 1
MVA # Date Collected Sample Location Map No.
4808-L1616 28 September 2001 22 Cortlandt St. 1
4795-L1560 22 September 2001 Murray & Church St. 2
5230-M3451 15-16 September 2001 49 Ann St. 3 9119-X0135
07 October 2001 33 Maiden Lane 4
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

Last edited by DGM; 29th February 2012 at 01:40 PM.
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:46 PM   #30
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 17,530
Originally Posted by tmd2_1 View Post
Last time I'm posting it. To be clear at this time the source of the chips is unknown, but it is definitely not thermite or nano-thermite? Is that a fair statement?
tl;dr?

Quote:
Fig. 1
MVA # Date Collected Sample Location Map No.
4808-L1616 28 September 2001 22 Cortlandt St. 1
4795-L1560 22 September 2001 Murray & Church St. 2
5230-M3451 15-16 September 2001 49 Ann St. 3 9119-X0135
07 October 2001 33 Maiden Lane 4
And according to the wall of text you didn't read, you are correct. They are not thermite or nano-thermite.
__________________
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.

-Leonard Nimoy
RIP. Thank you.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:46 PM   #31
Mudcat
Man of a Thousand Memes
 
Mudcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,446
Originally Posted by tmd2_1 View Post
To be clear at this time the source of the chips is unknown, but it is definitely not thermite or nano-thermite? Is that a fair statement?
In what context are you using the word 'source'? They know where it came from, the WTC. They don't know who made it (though how that factors in is beyond me as it does nothing to strengthen or weaken the truther movement), but they suspect that it's likely from company already named in the report.

And yes, it is 100% not thermite or nano-thermite (or any other sinister substance for that matter). What's the confusion?
__________________
"There is no special treatment for guns." ~WildCat, confirmed gun owner.
Mudcat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:47 PM   #32
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,244
Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
...
I submit to you that Dr. Millette has kept his promise.

The next several posts contain the results of Dr. James Millette’s study. Onward!
Good job piggybacking on other studies and funding the work. Here you are doing it for free... You organized funding for a study, while, Gage took in over 300,000 dollars and he has funded zero studies to back up his delusions.

chrismohr - 1 Gage - 0

Good work
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:49 PM   #33
moorea34
Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 157
Yes, excellent job Chris

And thanks to Jim Millette also!
moorea34 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 01:51 PM   #34
Edx
Philosopher
 
Edx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,641
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Good job piggybacking on other studies and funding the work. Here you are doing it for free... You organized funding for a study, while, Gage took in over 300,000 dollars and he has funded zero studies to back up his delusions.

chrismohr - 1 Gage - 0

Good work
Thats the real kicker, isnt it?

If Gage wanted to have the scientitic community take notice he would have used some money to fund lots of studies, eventually if they all came back positive someone would have to listen. Even if each cost them 10 times as much as Chris' study, they could have still afforded many. Rather spend it on Gage's personal income.

Its almost as if they dont want to fund studies they think wont give them the results they want.......

Last edited by Edx; 29th February 2012 at 02:15 PM.
Edx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 02:04 PM   #35
fourtoe
Graduate Poster
 
fourtoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,031
Originally Posted by Edx View Post
Its almost as if they dont want to fund studies they think wont give them the results they want.......
That can't possibly be the reason!

I can't wait to read this article, it's such a bummer that by the time I get the chance to do so this thread will have 25 pages....I won't be able to read it until later tonight.
__________________
***My old username used to be knife fight colobus, but it was totally too long.***
-Here's my YouTube Channel where I either debate crazies (Kirk Cameron, Westboro Baptist Church, Truthers etc.) or play Zelda
-I sooo have a blog.
-The thread for discussing/reviewing and posting any 911 related debates one can find!
fourtoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 02:08 PM   #36
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 23,299
Originally Posted by fourtoe View Post
That can't possibly be the reason!

I can't wait to read this article, it's such a bummer that by the time I get the chance to do so this thread will have 25 pages....I won't be able to read it until later tonight.
The actually article won't be out for a while. This is a summary. Nothing really surprising. He more or less duplicated what Harrit et al did. They didn't find thermite either. So far I haven't seen anything that wouldn't have been discovered if they did a competent peer-review.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

Last edited by DGM; 29th February 2012 at 02:12 PM.
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 02:23 PM   #37
cjnewson88
Graduate Poster
 
cjnewson88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,659
Ok so, correct me if I'm wrong.. but..

In Summery;

1) Red/Gray Chips are Not Thermite

2) Red/Gray Chips are Not Primer Paint

3) However, Red/Gray Chips Could Be Laclede Primer Paint?

What other source for the chips could their be? Clarity please if anyone can provide it

edit: Oh and Thanks Chris! Very much appreciated by all! Thanks to Jim too!
__________________
Common sense has clearly been snuck up on from behind beaten several times on the head and left to bleed.
Over 140 pieces of evidence showing American 77 hit the Pentagon http://therightbloggerbastard.blogspot.co.nz/
http://www.youtube.com/user/cjnewson88
cjnewson88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 02:26 PM   #38
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,865
I am still a little troubled by the fact that no strontium chromate was found in Millette's study. This would have absolutely confirmed the La Clede theory, but then, we are looking for less than 1% of the total mass of the material.

The absolute lack of discernable elemental aluminum positively rules out the possibility that the chips are thermite of any nature.
__________________
No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.

Last edited by leftysergeant; 29th February 2012 at 02:28 PM.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 02:34 PM   #39
fourtoe
Graduate Poster
 
fourtoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,031
Originally Posted by DGM View Post
The actually article won't be out for a while. This is a summary. Nothing really surprising. He more or less duplicated what Harrit et al did. They didn't find thermite either. So far I haven't seen anything that wouldn't have been discovered if they did a competent peer-review.
Yeah, summary not article, my bad. Mohr mentioned that he was gonna present his findings at a conference first, IIRC. I will totally read this summary later.
__________________
***My old username used to be knife fight colobus, but it was totally too long.***
-Here's my YouTube Channel where I either debate crazies (Kirk Cameron, Westboro Baptist Church, Truthers etc.) or play Zelda
-I sooo have a blog.
-The thread for discussing/reviewing and posting any 911 related debates one can find!
fourtoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th February 2012, 02:51 PM   #40
chrismohr
Master Poster
 
chrismohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,080
Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
I am still a little troubled by the fact that no strontium chromate was found in Millette's study. This would have absolutely confirmed the La Clede theory, but then, we are looking for less than 1% of the total mass of the material.

The absolute lack of discernable elemental aluminum positively rules out the possibility that the chips are thermite of any nature.
Jim Millette told me personally, because I asked, if he found strontium chromate and he said no, none.
__________________
20 videos rebutting Blueprint for Truth YouTube keyword chrismohr911 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC3JgWkNNIQ
Playlists http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
and http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
WTC Dust study http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf Hundreds more links and info both sides: http:www.chrismohr911.com
chrismohr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:19 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.