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Old 18th March 2012, 04:32 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
Yeah youre quite right, but have you ever tried to phone these guys? We have, many times. Im just making a point in a youtube video, if all you can do is to refer me to NIST rather than dispute the points that are made, then im fine with that.
Why would you be? This is important, is it not? Write a freaking report and stick it in their faces. Maybe get the 1500+ AE engineers to do something for once.

All I'm saying to you is, if you consider this important, **** or get of the pot. Get it?
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Old 18th March 2012, 04:35 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
OK, no problem, i just thought that you guys were interested in this sort of stuff, and that you had a forum set up here to debate it on. I can see why you dont want to on this occasion.
We are. We are having difficulty getting you to clearly state what your concerns or claims are. We cannot debate or discuss them unless you make clear what you want to discuss.
Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
Not at all, something could be misrepresented out of incompetence, and lack of technical ability. Do you think it suited NISTs story to leave out these elements in their analysis?
If you are not prepared to demonstrate clear thinking how can we respond with clarity?

What I think about possible malfeasance by NIST is not in question. It is your claim we are trying to address not mine.

Do you want to discuss "Why WTC7 fell down" OR "NIST is both incompetent and wrong".



(And to pre-empt the trolling tactic - they are separate topics and not interdependent.)

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Old 18th March 2012, 04:53 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Why would you be? This is important, is it not? Write a freaking report and stick it in their faces. Maybe get the 1500+ AE engineers to do something for once.

All I'm saying to you is, if you consider this important, **** or get of the pot. Get it?
YES I GET IT. What i am saying to you is that i have many directions to take this, and maybe NIST is one of them. One of them happens to be this forum, so if all you have to say about the videos is 'take it to nist', that is fine, youve said it, and i take that on board.
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Old 18th March 2012, 04:55 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
YES I GET IT. What i am saying to you is that i have many directions to take this, and maybe NIST is one of them. One of them happens to be this forum, so if all you have to say about the videos is 'take it to nist', that is fine, youve said it, and i take that on board.
What else do you expect us to say? You can't be expecting us to go "Hoboy you're right, NIST sucks, it's all a conspiracy", can you? The fact of the matter is that most of us - I dare say, save a handful of twoofers, everybody on this forum - don't believe you.
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:01 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
What else do you expect us to say? You can't be expecting us to go "Hoboy you're right, NIST sucks, it's all a conspiracy", can you? The fact of the matter is that most of us - I dare say, save a handful of twoofers, everybody on this forum - don't believe you.
ok, so what in these 3 videos is wrong specifically?
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:03 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
So you are saying that a 'layman' should contact the people who have been described on this very page as being the best in the US, to point out their mistakes? aye ok. ...
If nothing else, it should be good entertainment.

I love how you suddenly start using our terms when you want to imply that we're trying to lure you into some sort of trap.
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:05 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
ok, so what in these 3 videos is wrong specifically?
I'm not qualified to judge that. You see, for me as a layman who won't create an imaginary internet persona that has higher credentials than I actually have, I have to deferr judging technical evidence to those more able than I. The engineers at NIST happen to be deemed the most qualified in their field, so I deferr to them. They have earned my trust. You're just a nameless person on the internet. You have earned nothing.

For you to be taken seriously at all, you will need to have your evidence peer reviewed. That means typing up a report and submitting it. If you don't do that, you will never be more than a nameless person on the internet with a big claim and no real evidence.

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Old 18th March 2012, 05:06 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
YES I GET IT. What i am saying to you is that i have many directions to take this, and maybe NIST is one of them. One of them happens to be this forum, so if all you have to say about the videos is 'take it to nist', that is fine, youve said it, and i take that on board.
"Maybe NIST is one of them"? Isn't your problem with them? Maybe you should contact the Vatican or the League of Woman Voters and ask them first. When are you guys going to "grow a pair".

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Old 18th March 2012, 05:11 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
So you are saying that a 'layman' should contact the people who have been described on this very page as being the best in the US, to point out their mistakes? aye ok.
Which of these elements do you think would have not been present in the 'as built' drawings, and why?
your focus seems to have shifted firmly towards "NIST is wrong".

So what is your objective?

Are you looking for a way to get the message to NIST?

If so:
What is the message you want to give to NIST?
Who do you want to take the message?
How do you want it delivered?
What are you wanting NIST to do with the message?
How will you know that you have succeeded?


Or, backing off a little:
What do you want to achieve?
How do you want to go about achieving it?
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:13 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
"Maybe NIST is one of them"? Isn't your problem with them? Maybe you should contact the Vatican or the League of Woman Voters and ask them first. When are you guys going to "grow a pair".

Right now i am here to debate the content, Taking it to NIST is another issue, and not one i came on here to discuss, though i do thank you for the advice.
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:14 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
your focus seems to have shifted firmly towards "NIST is wrong".

So what is your objective?

Are you looking for a way to get the message to NIST?

If so:
What is the message you want to give to NIST?
Who do you want to take the message?
How do you want it delivered?
What are you wanting NIST to do with the message?
How will you know that you have succeeded?


Or, backing off a little:
What do you want to achieve?
How do you want to go about achieving it?
Right now we are making a series of videos for youtube. For now, that's all. Feel free to comment on them.
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:18 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
Right now we are making a series of videos for youtube. For now, that's all. Feel free to comment on them.
Comment: Stop making videos. If you think your work is important, write reports. If you don't think your work is important, stop trolling.
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:19 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
YES I GET IT. What i am saying to you is that i have many directions to take this, and maybe NIST is one of them. One of them happens to be this forum, so if all you have to say about the videos is 'take it to nist', that is fine, youve said it, and i take that on board.
Take as many directions as you wish. I would suggest that NIST would be at the top of your list. Have you passed you conclusions to other engineers or have you so far restricted them to youtube? What did other engineers say? Do they find it worthy or relevent? Would your findings change the outcome?

If you have found something that will benefit the world of engineering then go at it. Your barking up the wrong tree here. JREF & youtube can't help you. No patents or changes to building regs done here. We primarily deal with delusional truthers and trolls. Engineers with something legitimate don't frequent these parts very often, if at all. Try those 1500 that Richard has. What did they say?
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:21 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
Right now i am here to debate the content, Taking it to NIST is another issue, and not one i came on here to discuss, though i do thank you for the advice.
You still don't get it. How are we supposed to know what information NIST used? Can you tell me with any certainty that these drawings were all they had to work from? No, you can't. You want us to argue against (or pat you on the back) your incomplete information with ours, Is that right?
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:22 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
Right now we are making a series of videos for youtube. For now, that's all. Feel free to comment on them.
Why not incorporate this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7rj5UQvlWw
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:25 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
Right now we are making a series of videos for youtube....
Why?
Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
For now, that's all.
Either it's pointless - you don't know why you are doing it - or you are not prepared to tell us why
Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
Feel free to comment on them.
Same problem as I have commented previously. You start at the wrong end.

"Why should I look at your videos?" comes at least one step before "Why should I comment on them?"

If you don't know why you are making them the number of reasons for me to look at them is a diminishing small number.
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:26 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
You still don't get it. How are we supposed to know what information NIST used? Can you tell me with any certainty that these drawings were all they had to work from? No, you can't. You want us to argue against (or pat you on the back) your incomplete information with ours, Is that right?
Not at all, I'm just interested as to your opinion, thats all. Im not looking for a pat on the back, im looking for the truth about wtc7.
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:27 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Jackanory View Post
...Engineers with something legitimate don't frequent these parts very often, if at all....
Some few do. We are ubiquitous! All over the place/Everywhere!
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:28 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by slowsmile View Post
Why not incorporate this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7rj5UQvlWw
Yes, foreknowledge is an issue, i agree. Fire doesnt bring buildings like this down, and certainly not predictably, or to a countdown.
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:29 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
Some few do. We are ubiquitous! All over the place/Everywhere!
You are also legit
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:31 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
Not at all, I'm just interested as to your opinion, thats all. Im not looking for a pat on the back, im looking for the truth about wtc7.
Somehow I dont think you want our truth. It kinda messes with the whole 'inside jobby' thing. But you will know that already, right. lol.
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:33 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
Not at all, I'm just interested as to your opinion, thats all. Im not looking for a pat on the back, im looking for the truth about wtc7.
So contact NIST and get their feedback on your concern.

I don't see where this single issue really makes any difference to the final outcome. This was not the "straw that broke the camels back". I don't believe an extra inch would make any difference.

Besides that, What would be NIST's motivation to fake the cause of an insignificant buildings collapse?
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:33 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
Yes, foreknowledge is an issue, i agree. Fire doesnt bring buildings like this down, and certainly not predictably, or to a countdown.
High probability of collapse from observed the damage and bulging walls - no foreknowledge of anything like demolition by those silent explosives.

Going to incorporate the collapse including the east penthouse next time and a soundtrack?
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:38 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
So contact NIST and get their feedback on your concern.

I don't see where this single issue really makes any difference to the final outcome. This was not the "straw that broke the camels back". I don't believe an extra inch would make any difference.
Ok, you need to look at the drawings. Its not just an extra inch. The plate 'pg' under the 12" 'pf' seat extends the 'walk off' point by quite a bit.
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:41 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by slowsmile View Post
High probability of collapse from observed the damage and bulging walls - no foreknowledge of anything like demolition by those silent explosives.

Going to incorporate the collapse including the east penthouse next time and a soundtrack?
Sure, i think that given the impossibility of NISTs explanation of the column 79 failure, that the inclusion of the penthouse falling would be good to include as it begs the question just what could make this very robust connection fail, because it sure wasn't thermal expansion. Thanks for the input.
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:42 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
Ok, you need to look at the drawings. Its not just an extra inch. The plate 'pg' under the 12" 'pf' seat extends the 'walk off' point by quite a bit.
I have looked at them.

You missed my edit. What would be NIST's motivation to fudge (and hope not to get caught) the cause of collapse of an insignificant building? You're not one of those "Silverstein made out like a bandit" believers are you?
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:42 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
So contact NIST and get their feedback on your concern.

I don't see where this single issue really makes any difference to the final outcome. This was not the "straw that broke the camels back". I don't believe an extra inch would make any difference.

Besides that, What would be NIST's motivation to fake the cause of an insignificant buildings collapse?
Ok, youve made the 'contact NIST' point.(again) I take that on board, thanks.
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:44 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I have looked at them.

You missed my edit. What would be NIST's motivation to fudge (and hope not to get caught) the cause of an insignificant building? You're not one of those "Silverstein made out like a bandit" believers are you?
Not at all, I am very much in the 'thermal expansion could not do this' camp. And if you have looked at the drawings, do you not think that plate 'pg' would extend the distance that the girder needs to 'walk'?
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Old 18th March 2012, 05:48 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
Not at all, I am very much in the 'thermal expansion could not do this' camp. And if you have looked at the drawings, do you not think that plate 'pg' would extend the distance that the girder needs to 'walk'?
So why would they want to cover-up the real (as you claim) reason of the collapse. This is a crap load of people that are now dragged "into it". You do know the worst way to keep a secret is to not keep it to yourself. If you think they're all just incompetent...........well you know where I'm going.

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Old 18th March 2012, 05:56 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
So why would they want to cover-up the real (as you claim) reason of the collapse. This is a crap load of people that are now dragged "into it". You do know the worst way to keep a secret is to not keep it to yourself. If you think they're all just incompetent...........well you know where I'm going.

I'm just saying that the reason for the collapse is not the one that NIST claim because it is physically impossible, it follows then that this should be reinvestigated, in order to establish what could have caused this. Would it be reasonable for example, to expect NIST to test for explosives/residue, even if it were only to rule this out as a possible cause? After all, explosives have brought down way more steel buildings than fire ever has.
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Old 18th March 2012, 06:02 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
I'm just saying that the reason for the collapse is not the one that NIST claim because it is physically impossible, it follows then that this should be reinvestigated, in order to establish what could have caused this. .
You say it's "physically impossible". You'll have to forgive me if I don;t take your word for this. Where can I see your data showing this to be true? Why do we need a new investigation? You can conclude NIST got it wrong but you can't give an alternative theory?
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Old 18th March 2012, 06:06 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
You say it's "physically impossible". You'll have to forgive me if I don;t take your word for this. Where can I see your data showing this to be true? Why do we need a new investigation? You can conclude NIST got it wrong but you can't give an alternative theory?
The beams to the east of the girder cannot expand enough to push it off its seat. How far do you believe the girder has to 'walk' in order to fail?
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Old 18th March 2012, 06:08 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
I'm just saying that the reason for the collapse is not the one that NIST claim because it is physically impossible, it follows then that this should be reinvestigated, in order to establish what could have caused this. Would it be reasonable for example, to expect NIST to test for explosives/residue, even if it were only to rule this out as a possible cause? After all, explosives have brought down way more steel buildings than fire ever has.
Of course its physically possible.

Does metal expand?

What happens to a column pushed from one direction without a compensating normal force?

Would you change your mind if you knew steel buildings have collapsed due to fire?

Do things sometimes happen that have never happened before?

If that doesn't convince you, do you have a convincing alternative model for how they could have not collapsed due to fire? Has that model ever been used before successfully? If it hasn't, do you truly believe someone with power and influence would sign up to rolling the dice and taking their chances on it?
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Old 18th March 2012, 06:08 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
The beams to the east of the girder cannot expand enough to push it off its seat. How far do you believe the girder has to 'walk' in order to fail?
I don't know. Exactly how far can these beams expand? Was this the only factor?
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Old 18th March 2012, 06:10 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
The beams to the east of the girder cannot expand enough to push it off its seat. How far do you believe the girder has to 'walk' in order to fail?
How far could they have expanded and pushed it? What is your model? Please included tolerance stack-ups.
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Old 18th March 2012, 06:14 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
How far could they have expanded and pushed it? What is your model? Please included tolerance stack-ups.
unrestrained thermal expansion (no resistance) would be around 5.7" for the longest of the floor beams to the east of the girder at NISTs temperature estimate. Not enough to cause the girder to walk off.
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Old 18th March 2012, 06:17 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
unrestrained thermal expansion (no resistance) would be around 5.7" for the longest of the floor beams to the east of the girder at NISTs temperature estimate. Not enough to cause the girder to walk off.
Do you believe these all would have expanded evenly and not caused any twisting or distortion of any other members? What happens when a restrained member is heated then cools?
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Old 18th March 2012, 06:18 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by gerrycan View Post
unrestrained thermal expansion (no resistance) would be around 5.7" for the longest of the floor beams to the east of the girder at NISTs temperature estimate. Not enough to cause the girder to walk off.
Why not? Would it hold with .3" remaining to the COG (at the contact point)? What if the column was deformed?

What is your tolerance stackup?
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Old 18th March 2012, 06:24 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Why not? Would it hold with .3" remaining to the COG (at the contact point)? What if the column was deformed?

What is your tolerance stackup?
This is absolute worse case scenario in terms of tolerances. In reality 2.5" would be closer, if not less. There is also another plate under the 12" seat which is wider onto which the girder would fall even if it could walk this far, which it can't.
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Old 18th March 2012, 06:27 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Do you believe these all would have expanded evenly and not caused any twisting or distortion of any other members? What happens when a restrained member is heated then cools?
Depends, how hot did it get? And NIST say that these beams were heated uniformly in their analysis, so their expansion would be proportional to their length. I know it's a crazy idea to think that these beams could all go to 600 deg in a few seconds and uniformly at that, but hey, that's NIST for ya.
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