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#41 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 883
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That would possibly be one way to open the books. Join, sign up, pay fee, attend the foolery... complain, request refund of fee, travel expenses, mileage, other expenses within 30 days. Not satisfied... breach of contract, fraud (defense would be impossibility of contract and/or entertainment purposes only). But some fun discovery in the process ?
More thinking... It would also be interesting to see whatever waiver document they make you sign for these outings listing restrictions, rules, and non liabilities. The site states some basics but I would imagine it would be pretty detailed. |
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#42 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,784
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I did some digging at their site and found no waiver requirements, no termination penalties, no explanation in regard to refunds nor what the requirements are to receive a refund. So, as far as I can see. They have no official policy either way.
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#43 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 883
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I am just thinking that there is more.. when you sign up and pay.. then you get the Full Monty.
Has anyone ever signed up for these things and gone.. well that hasnt tried to or wanted to make out with Patty and relatives ever signed up ? Just wondering... and I dont mean that in the literal sense. They would almost have to have a waiver form that has a hold harmless clause or document for anything and everything which would include the outcome of finding BF and also non refundability of .. funds. Perhaps also including that the signer of the document personally believes in their existence and supports the movement ! okay.. not movement.. the cause. |
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#44 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,784
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It would certainly fit the profile eh? No direct information either way, but once you are on site , cash in hand, they whip out a 3 page waiver that grants you no protection (even if their idiot guide leads them into a Bear's den) and grant's the BFRO everything. Plus no refunding of the deposit if after reading the waiver you realize they are full of it.
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#45 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 883
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Yeah.. that is what they did the last time I went Whitewater Rafting ? If I hit a duck and drowned in the river the outfitter was covered. Not really but.. hey ? if somone wanted to truly beat them at their own game.. and have some fun with their organization that would be the way to go. Bankrupt them or expose them in public. The fraud is in the money myth.. not just the myth.
It is one thing to perpetuate the myth.. it is an entirely different thing to make money off of it. Myth + perpetuation of myth to make $$ = Fraud. |
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#46 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,784
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Are you kidding? I'm thinking of starting some squatchin tours of my own! I'm not greedy, $200 a head. Just supply your own gear, tents, food and water.
I only need to make 12 squatch safari's with 30 people per to make $72,000 and I only work 36 days a year!!! edit: Not to mention that since i know where we will be going I can setup a little squatch footprint action and some woodknocks ahead of time. This insures repeat bidness and that a good time is had by all! (for entertainment purposes only of course!) |
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#47 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,955
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Bill Munns started his own thread at JREF, He then attempted to get the thread removed, if he had been successful in getting the thread removed, then he would be fair game in this thread.
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"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic |
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#48 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,970
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LA Times:
Quote:
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"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
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#49 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,970
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That thread, which you referenced here, is not accessible. I assume it was locked out in response to certain statements made by Munns which did not comport with the rules of JREF. So in essence it has been removed. (There are a couple of other threads here and here. ) So I would say for the purposes of this thread, he doesn't have his own thread.
Munns last public attempt to monetize his "bigfoot research" was the kickstarter fiasco, in which he asked for $75,000, saying he intended to prove the PGF showed a real creature, not a man in a suit. After a couple or three months there were something like 7 conditional pledges for something less than $1000. His big paydays were apparently related to appearances on two cable television programs. These were the shows in which the world heard about his (now withdrawn) 15 mm lens theory and 7-4 inch bigfoot. I am not familiar with how "residuals" for these shows might work. He has done some conventions but I can't believe that is very lucrative, as he doesn't sell anything, at least not at the one I attended. I expect that if he can, he will begin marketing bound autographed copies of the Munns Report before "the jig is up" on the PGF. He holds a large databank of digital images, which he uses "for educational purposes" but since he doesn't own the rights to the film and the stills (which apparently are difficult/expensive to obtain) it is unclear how he can monetize them. |
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"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
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#50 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,955
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I suppose even those on the skeptical side of Bigfootry are not immune to the Bigsploitation tag. Does Kitakaze fall into that category?
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"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic |
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#51 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,559
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I love the iCarly episode referenced above. In a lovely bit of satire, the kids encounter an bigfoot researcher peddling his latest book "Bigfoot: True, or Real?"
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#52 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,955
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Agree on the Icarly episode. Good one.
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"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic |
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#53 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,970
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Good question, Db,
It's possible that he is soliciting funds. But he's not selling anything to footers or to skeptics. If his documentary were to be purely an homage to the founding fathers of bigfootery, possibly so. But his intent is to debunk the PGF. I do think there is potential (albeit limited) to exploit the hoax aspect. But he is not creating and filling a market for nonsense. Creating and filling a need for truth is not the subject of this thread or the JREF. p. |
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"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
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#54 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,955
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James Randi promotes truth, at the expense of charlatans and liars, isn't that what Kit is doing as well?
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"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic |
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#55 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Inland NW
Posts: 4,836
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What is Kit doing these days? It may be time for an update.
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Normal in a weird way. |
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#56 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,865
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Yes, core Randi belief is to expose deception for profit.
In raising the subject of kids' books/shows, etc. the standard is the same. My two year old can do calls for moose, wolf, raven, etc. but also bigfoot - and he knows that is a fictional animal. You can put bigfoot in with unicorns and fairies for kids shows, no problem. But when you are posing bigfoot as real and making money off it to kids - that's a proper Randi topic. I didn't know the Munns thread had been locked out or that would have been an automatic nomination. How old can this schtick get with the loudly announced "not a proponent...unbiased study..." while simultaneously doing the opposite? It's the trade standard in 'footery: doing the opposite of what you are saying. |
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#57 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: All up in your business!
Posts: 1,705
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While Bigsploitation doesn't necessarily mean only money, to better help us calculate the proper Degree of Derision™ coefficient - you know, the one used to more effectively ridicule them - how much money do I/we think is generated (annually) under the hope/guise/cause of Bigfoot? Up until recently I'd have bet it wasn't a whole bunch. Maybe a couple million? Now, counting things like Finding Bigfoot™, it's surely more, although not necessarily 10x more. Some speculative calcs:
I say we wait to get worried when it's actually time to get worried, like when it hits $6.66 million. ![]() |
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"If you vote for me, all of your wildest dreams will come true." - Pedro |
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#58 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,779
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I've recently learned that Animal Planet has applied for a permit to film a Bigfoot-related episode in the Kisatchie National Forest, which I live adjacent to.
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"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
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#59 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 883
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#60 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,784
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Jerky costs $16 a bag? OMG!!!
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#61 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 883
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Well.. there is always sales tax ? Plus the Bobo Fey pants.. and the lack of candor issue.. it could add up ?
Seriously though, the FB thing is in full swing and they are making money. I find it rather sad. |
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#62 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,865
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Now this is excellent intelligence. Because here again they can't prohibit anyone from being in the park at the same time to capture that video of them hyukin' it up between takes or comparing a wide screen shot including crew compared to the framing they use in the show...
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#63 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,955
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You do realize that this is TOURISM dollars, and you are going to ruin a lot of small-town establishments that need those Bigfoot dollars to make a living.
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"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic |
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#64 |
beer-swilling semiliterate
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 25,012
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Don't forget to add a few bucks for Zagnuts.
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A møøse ønce bit my sister |
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#65 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,865
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Exactly so - and it isn't just chambers of commerce in the towns adjacent to parks where "bigfoot expeditions" occur, but the park administration too wants big visitor numbers for funding.
You can use typical per-day visitor expenditures on gas, groceries, food etc. to see that 30 people for several days is probably on the order of ten thousand dollars in revenue for local merchants. That figure comes from a hundred bucks a day per visitor - extreme rough order of magnitude. It is a lot higher in our tourism industry, but these bigfoot folks are staying in campgrounds and not hotel or cabin lodging. So the lodging component is only ten bucks a day or so. |
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#66 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,784
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Maybe this is a cynical POV, but I don't see the harm in all of the Bigfootsploitation, because I think the HOODWINKED would just be getting suckered in by some other sort of woo if there was no Bigfoot mythology. Plus, there's the whole caveat emptor thing.
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#67 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,970
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1.) 30-35% of people in the US seem to believe
2.) thats 100,000,000 folks, many are kids 3.) getting weirded out about the woods and 4.) some are going to be out there with guns ready to shoot the rest of us. 5.) how do they learn to caveat unless someone tells them |
__________________
"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
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#68 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,784
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People are responsible for their own knowledge.... if they want to believe in Bigfoot, or Ghosts or Jesus... It's not really my responsibility to stand on street corners and tell them they are wrong.
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#69 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,970
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don't look now, but this is 3rd and Main....more for the undecided than for the crazies.
or are you just here to enjoy the literary craftings? |
__________________
"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
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#70 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,784
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I'm amused by the Bigfoot thing in general (as I assume most of us on this thread are). As far as the books and stuff go, I don't read them much anymore. My local library doesn't carry em and I'm not about to give these fools any of my hard earned cash!!
I am always making amusing posts about how silly the Bigfoot world is on FB and I hope that makes an impact on a few people that it's all a big con..... Aside from that, i reckon peopl are on their own |
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#71 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 883
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Yes.. Just.. um.. "Leave it to Bleever".. I cant believe that Eddie Haskell guy is still around and is pitching some .. I forget what it is. Anyway...non BF item.
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#72 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,970
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Bigsploiter bio from the online program of a 'footer convention in Richland WA in May. She's pumping up the hype, with "nonfiction" and selling the heck out of bigfoot to kids :
Quote:
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__________________
"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
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#73 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,568
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#74 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 365
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Anyone could write the stuff she does.
I noticed JP O'Neill also didn't like Kelly's book on Amazon. However, the clueless reviews swamp the critical ones. Here's what I wrote. "This book is very disappointing. The only plus is the wealth of pictures that are interesting and should capture attention. The authors state these creatures were "investigated". The list of references used is abysmally short. Most of what is given is regurgitated from older books including misconceptions or mistakes just carried over once again. The authors give us the "Who knows?" attitude. We do know some things. We do have evidence. This is not a fair assessment - it's a view of what they wish were true. The path here leads only to more mystery, no answers. Sections start with pieces of fantastic fictional "what ifs" and end with a false dichotomy - either this animal does or doesn't exist. Those aren't the only two options. Misidentification is not addressed well. I'm looking for something more balanced, more science- and evidence-based. This is NOT it." http://www.amazon.com/Tales-Cryptids...ews/1581960492 I'm thinking about revisiting this topic for an upcoming piece. I may have to reiterate the inadequacies of Bigfoot juvenile nonfiction. |
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#75 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Inland NW
Posts: 4,836
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Would "Bigfoot nonfiction" be considered an oxymoron?
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Normal in a weird way. |
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#76 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 152
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the part of bigfoot exploitation that kills me is people offering up copyrighted "evidence".
ive had a few run ins with critique of copyrighted photos and such, as in having videos removed from youtube and being threatened with lawsuits for making video analysis of this "evidence" since i havent purchased the "rights" to show the image (even though its clearly covered by fair use, i dont have the time or $ to fight a lawsuit). to me these folks are more concerned with making money than what the truth of the matter really is, they just dont want their cash cows exposed. |
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#77 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 883
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#78 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 883
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Well.. that is the thing. Anyone can copyright anything so long as they can say in an affidavit that they were the source or the first in line to be the source of the idea/concept, image, writing, photograph etc.. ? Now if the item being shared or used is not copyrighted then well.. all bets are off.
Intellectual Property Law is very funny and often not very intellectual if you know what I mean ? edit: They have some really fun posters and slippers over on ebay ! |
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#79 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,568
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#80 |
beer-swilling semiliterate
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 25,012
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A møøse ønce bit my sister |
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