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Tags general discussion , holocaust , holocaust denial

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Old 1st June 2012, 07:39 PM   #2281
Clayton Moore
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
No wonder you don't know what on in them.
Huh?
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Old 1st June 2012, 07:56 PM   #2282
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Try to think it out, Clayton.

And, by the way, all you have to do to learn how Jews incarcerated, attacked, and put under penalty of death by the Nazis felt about them is . . . oh sorry, I almost suggested for you to read some books.
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Old 1st June 2012, 07:59 PM   #2283
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
So who do I hate?

The Jewish people of the day who I say would have surely reacted with rage or eventual rage if they witnessed or knew of atrocities against their children?


Seems you people hold them in disdain by saying they wouldn't.

Since the beginning of time the most hated people in the world have been people who harm children.
Argument from Ignorance.

Same sort of drivel you regularly hear from Monday Morning Quarterbacks following a school shooting.

"Why didn't they just charge him, he couldn't kill them all?"
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Old 1st June 2012, 08:01 PM   #2284
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
So who do I hate?

The Jewish people of the day who I say would have surely reacted with rage or eventual rage if they witnessed or knew of atrocities against their children?


Seems you people hold them in disdain by saying they wouldn't.

Since the beginning of time the most hated people in the world have been people who harm children.
Which is why rational people hold a special contempt and hatred for the perpetrators of the Holocaust.

And a great deal of sympathy for the victims.
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Old 1st June 2012, 08:04 PM   #2285
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Which is why rational people hold a special contempt and hatred for the perpetrators of the Holocaust.
As well as their apologists.
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Old 1st June 2012, 09:10 PM   #2286
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Which is why rational people hold a special contempt and hatred for the perpetrators of the Holocaust.

And a great deal of sympathy for the victims.
No. It's because they are told and believe lies.

Not unlike the "noble lie" tactic of Leo Strauss and his students.
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Old 1st June 2012, 11:40 PM   #2287
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
No. It's because they are told and believe lies.

Yes, "lies" told by Germans themselves, with German records, documents, and archives, researched by Germans, and put into books and research papers written by Germans and published by German printing houses and universities.

Perhaps you can square that circle someday as to why Germany itself is not ground zero for Holocaust denial but is instead, even today, publishing papers, articles, and books testifying to the reality of the Holocaust and why the country does not deny it.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:14 AM   #2288
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
So who do I hate?
Quite obviously Jews, among others.
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
The Jewish people of the day who I say would have surely reacted with rage or eventual rage if they witnessed or knew of atrocities against their children?
And some of them did.

But you ignore that aspect of history.
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Seems you people hold them in disdain by saying they wouldn't.
Who has said they wouldn't?

All I have seen, here or in, you know, real history books is that they were unable or not allowed to *express* that rage.

And yet, as has been pointed out many times, sometimes they did.
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Since the beginning of time the most hated people in the world have been people who harm children.
But yet you make excuses for exclusively oine group who did.

I ask you again: what, exactly, did the young man in my avatar do to deserve what the people you try to whitewash did to him?

Where is *your* rage for them?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:28 AM   #2289
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
No. It's because they are told and believe lies.
And yet, you have been completely unable to document a single such lie in an actual history book, preferring instead to whine about movies you haven't seen, and people who are not historians -- while continually posting lies which you either believe or will not de- or renounce.

For example, you continue to run away from discussing, let's say, "Other Losses" which you seemed to be citing earlier.

Or your crap about lying by lack of assertion.

Or the whole THHP thing.

Or the fact that you claim to know the "truth" about the Holocaust, but obviously have not actually read anything but denier crap on the subject.

But you have said those lies are okay, only those you pretend have any meaning to actual history are verboten.

And the lies you tell yourself: "Oh, let's have an anonymous poll, that'll show how people support me" "well, they are just being politically correct".
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Old 2nd June 2012, 03:20 AM   #2290
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
The Jewish people of the day who I say would have surely reacted with rage or eventual rage if they witnessed or knew of atrocities against their children?
Yesterday I read a book by a sociologist, Violence: A Microsociological Study, by Randall Collins, and he had a whole section on victim passivity. He cited examples from

- the Rape of Nanking
- riots against Muslims in India

and several other situations where violence was being meted out to defenceless civilian populations. The Japanese became quite contemptuous of how passive the Chinese were, how easy they were to slaughter.

He also discussed how on the battlefield, the side losing the initiative often becomes paralysed and is slaughtered as a result. Yet the losing side still has weapons.

The common pattern is that people don't fight back nearly as much as you seem to think. This is a universal characteristic, since you can find examples from many different cultures.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 03:24 AM   #2291
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Originally Posted by TSR View Post
All I have seen, here or in, you know, real history books is that they were unable or not allowed to *express* that rage.
All one can say is, here we go again.

Given examples of people reacting with rage to the actions of the Nazis, a week or so ago, Mr Moore responded by calling one person expressing hatred for the murderers "a crazed pathological liar," asking if one source wasn't a novel, and labeling another "scum" for reacting as Mr Moore advocates.

Of course, Jews caught up in the Holocaust expressed their feelings in many ways, as described here http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2107. And also in writing. Just a few examples of Jews from Treblinka expressing their feelings, only these few as I'm feeling lazy and rushed this morning . . .

Abraham Krzepicki:
Quote:
I saw beautiful children who looked like little angels, young girls in their first bloom, and my heart almost burst with pain and anger at how such beauty could be turned into ashes, but this also taught me one lesson: "Get out, get out of here, so you’ll live to see revenge, to see something else with those eyes which had to look upon scenes like these!”
Quote:
I gathered all my strength, reminded myself of the motto “Revenge!
Samuel Willenberg:
Quote:
That day we learned from the newcomers about the Warsaw ghetto revolt. We were shaken by the news. We had long known that a considerable number of Jews had been concentrated in Warsaw, and that many of them were ready to do battle for life and death, because the underground had prepared the ground for the organization of a resistance movement. The news of life and conditions in the ghetto filtered in to us only in bits and pieces. Nevertheless we would dwell upon them, argue about them and weave thoughts around them. In Warsaw were many of the relatives, friends and acquaintances, of our comrades. Warsaw was our hope, our secret dream. And lo and behold, we suddenly learned that in the crowded streets of the Warsaw ghetto the fire of revolt had flared, the rat-tat-tat of machine guns accompanied by the sound of exploding grenades. We pictured that bitter struggle to ourselves. Our hearts went out to the rebels; we worried about the fate of the heroes, the relatives who had remained there, and the children ...

The revolt of the Warsaw ghetto fired us, infused new strength into us. We, too, wanted to act and no longer allow ourselves to be led to our death stunned, submissive and helpless. In the evening the barrack hummed like a beehive. On every bunk a group sat conversing in low voices. We were all very excited; it seemed as if daylight had broken into the everyday drabness of the camp. Now our suffering was of only secondary importance. We launched into wild conjectures and we were beset by a fever of activity. The plan for the destruction of Treblinka and an armed revolt against our oppressors took shape. We heard the call of the woods, where the partisans were multiplying daily and which the SS and Wehrmacht companies entered with ever-increasing fear.

Slowly the underground raised its head in the camp.
Stanislaw Kon:
Quote:
EVEN BEFORE I arrived at Treblinka, i.e., before October 1, 1942, cases of individual revenge on the part of Jews had been reported. Thus, for example, a Jewish man from Warsaw who worked in one of the death details and had seen his wife and child taken away to the gas chambers, attacked the SS man Max Biel[as] with a knife and killed him on the spot. From that day on, the SS barracks bore the name of this Hitlerite “martyr.” But neither the plaque on the wall of the barracks nor the massacre of Jews that followed this attack deterred us. On the contrary: this episode encouraged us to fight and take our revenge. The young man from Warsaw became our ideal.

As we witnessed Hitler’s horrible methods of extermination, a desire for revenge burned within us and grew each day, starting to concretize into something precise, particularly from the moment’ when the 50-year-old doctor, Chorążycki of Warsaw, began to be active.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 04:35 AM   #2292
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Originally Posted by Nick Terry View Post
The common pattern is that people don't fight back nearly as much as you seem to think. This is a universal characteristic, since you can find examples from many different cultures.
I think it would also be apt to point out regular, modern day prisons. None of those people want to be there. The inmates vastly outnumber the guards, especially in America. Many of the people have violent tendencies or a violent past. Some (like Bob Hare) suspect something like 10% of the prison population literally have no qualms about killing anyone and everyone that get in their way. And these are people who aren't starved, aren't dying from rampant diseases, and aren't being used as slave labor. AND many take the opportunity in prison to get fit. Many are in the prime of their life and thanks to ridiculous "tough on crime laws" know they won't be out for a few decades, if ever so really have next to nothing to lose.
They hardly could be in a better position than to resist and fight, if it was something humans routinely did.

How many prison riots are there? How many resist violently to the point where they'd rather die than be captured and imprisoned (letting themselves be herded into prison one way or another)?

Answer: Single individuals here and there and a rare riot that eventually gets suppressed, usually quickly.


I'd like to point out, that I think that this is a survival thing. Both with criminals and with the Jews during the Holocaust. Individual survival, not survival as a group. People rarely risk their own lives to save the lives of others if there's zero chance of succeeding. From my recollection there were even Jews in death camps (and trustees in prison) that did/do the will of the guards because it would increase their own survival chances. Phil Zimbardo's The Lucifer Effect mentioned Jews attempting to make their own SS-type uniforms so they could basically endear themselves with the guards.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 04:50 AM   #2293
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Originally Posted by I am Bigfoot View Post

I'd like to point out, that I think that this is a survival thing. Both with criminals and with the Jews during the Holocaust. Individual survival, not survival as a group. People rarely risk their own lives to save the lives of others if there's zero chance of succeeding.
This is precisely what comes through in the many first-hand accounts I've read, from contemporary diaries to postwar interviews and memoirs. Nor, as you and Nick indicate, is any of this surprising. Nor is the range of behavior - of course, some individuals tried to organize collective resistance - and sometimes succeeded; of course, some individuals sought whatever advantages they could for themselves (think of Abraham Gancwajch and The Thirteen or other collaborators in Warsaw, some Kapos, informants, etc.); but of course most people tried to find a way to survive, as described quite cogently by Primo Levi in his various writings.

And Clayton's strawman - that absence of 24/7 resistance equals absence of anger - is both ludicrous on its merits and shown to be false by consulting what victims and observers actually wrote.
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Last edited by LemmyCaution; 2nd June 2012 at 04:52 AM.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 06:07 AM   #2294
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Unfortunately, if this thread, the one on the USS Liberty and others started by Clay are a reliable indication he will ignore anything contrary to his preconceived understanding of the facts, lie low sulking for a period then come right back with his previously discredited ideas.

Clay's preconceptions are:

A. The Holocaust is a lie perpetrated to make lots of money;
B. the Holocaust is disproven because the Jews weren't continually fighting against the Nazis;
C. The evidence of said resistance can be ignored because, well Jews;
D. Although the mass graves have been shown to be big enough Clay doesn't believe it;
E. the German evidence was obviously fabricated after the fact to back it up; and
F. The only reason that anyone accepts the Holocaust is that certain people have convinced them that the lie is true and so that the money can keep coming in.

Have I missed anything?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 06:15 AM   #2295
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Has Clayton Moore explained yet why he spells the word "ghetto,"
Quote:
"BS?"
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Old 2nd June 2012, 06:35 AM   #2296
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G. Jews!jews!jews!
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Old 2nd June 2012, 06:35 AM   #2297
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Originally Posted by Cyrix686 View Post
Has Clayton Moore explained yet why he spells the word "ghetto,"
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
BS?
As I stated in another CM thread, it would appear that the operative reference comes from Lewis Carroll:

Quote:
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'
And in this case, it would appear that "ghetto" means "complete fabrication created after the fact, because that's what Jooos do..."

Last edited by TSR; 2nd June 2012 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 09:32 AM   #2298
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Originally Posted by TSR View Post
Quite obviously Jews, among others.

And some of them did.

But you ignore that aspect of history.

Who has said they wouldn't?

All I have seen, here or in, you know, real history books is that they were unable or not allowed to *express* that rage.
You don't understand rage. When you are enraged you can't function much beyond the object of your rage. When you are enraged you concern yourself with venting your rage. Revenge becomes your soul purpose.

The enraged person, without satisfaction, dwells on his or her and becomes even more enraged and focused on waiting for/finding an opportunity for revenge.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 09:43 AM   #2299
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Originally Posted by I am Bigfoot View Post

Phil Zimbardo's The Lucifer Effect mentioned Jews attempting to make their own SS-type uniforms so they could basically endear themselves with the guards.
So where do you find the time and lamp light and the tools and materials to make their own SS-type uniforms?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 10:27 AM   #2300
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
So where do you find the time and lamp light and the tools and materials to make their own SS-type uniforms?
I don't know. From my memory they used random bits and scraps.
No one said they looked good or were well made. Just people trying to don the colors of the side that was winning at the moment.

Where do you find the justification to support the Nazis as innocent victims in this supposed lie?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 10:39 AM   #2301
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Originally Posted by Nick Terry View Post
So it seems you believe quite a few countries in the world are inhabited by dwarves - China, Chile, India, Mexico, Indonesia, Iraq, Malawi, Malaysia, Mongolia, Nigeria, Peru, Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam all have measured average heights for men and women which would together average at 160cm or only a little greater. And you can easily find female average heights of 160cm or below in many more countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height
Yeah I wasn't really buying into that "Oh the Ostjuden were so tiny.." argument either. Of course people today are taller than they were seventy years ago. And maybe eastern European Jews were a little smaller than their immediate neighbors. But these people weren't pygmies. They weren't even Chinese or Mexicans.

Quote:
Your Belzec photo was interestingly chosen. One thing to note is that the pics are actually from the 1940 labour camp phase. The other is that the very next slide shows a row of men with wildly varying heights. As does the slide after that. And quite a few are indeed very short.
It does show Jews who appear to be shorter than the other people in the picture. Some of them are significantly shorter than the others. But forget about height for a second. Look at the emaciated condition those people are in! All that starving in the ghetto and heavy labor has turned them into walking skeletons. Short walking skeletons.

Quote:
The taller men were much more likely to be spared for labour or become fugitives, and not even reach Belzec in the death camp phase.
Taller men more likely to be spared for labor? It really depends on the type of labor but I agree that there are certain jobs where being tall has an advantage. So I'll let than slide without demanding any, ya know, evidence that what you're saying is true.

But tall men are more likely to become fugitives?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 10:52 AM   #2302
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I added the truth. Disturbing wasn't it. I notice that mums the word on it, other than your discharge.
That could be because, like me, they're not sure what you were saying.

Quote:
Can you believe the heinous Germans were paying wages to the intended victims of an alleged Final Solution? Letting them send and receive mail?
Yes, we know, blind skepticism without regard to the facts in evidence. You can't believe it, therefore it must be impossible. We're all familiar, except the new folks. It looks convincing until one realizes that all you can do is attack the conclusions, not the facts and logic leading up to them.

Quote:
Those crafty Germans. I guess those privileges were to get the Jewish people to not feel too badly about the alleged atrocities against their children and babies and themselves. Another day another mark or two.

Kinda kicks to the curb the slave labor and work them till they drop nonsense.
Who says they couldn't do both?

TSR's already responded in more detail.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
So who do I hate?

The Jewish people of the day who I say would have surely reacted with rage or eventual rage if they witnessed or knew of atrocities against their children?


Seems you people hold them in disdain by saying they wouldn't.

Since the beginning of time the most hated people in the world have been people who harm children.
So your claims get knocked down and you retreat to what you think strongest fallback position without ever acknowledging you were wrong. Boy, are you predictable. That position was already destroyed. We've been cavorting about in the ruins, stealing your liquor, and "watering" your flowerpots for a while now. It has been proven wrong in literally almost every particular.

Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Yes, "lies" told by Germans themselves, with German records, documents, and archives, researched by Germans, and put into books and research papers written by Germans and published by German printing houses and universities.

Perhaps you can square that circle someday as to why Germany itself is not ground zero for Holocaust denial but is instead, even today, publishing papers, articles, and books testifying to the reality of the Holocaust and why the country does not deny it.
Jews made them do it.


Originally Posted by Nick Terry View Post
...
The common pattern is that people don't fight back nearly as much as you seem to think. This is a universal characteristic, since you can find examples from many different cultures.
Don't bother. I don't think he has ever acknowledged that point made by anyone.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
You don't understand rage. When you are enraged you can't function much beyond the object of your rage. When you are enraged you concern yourself with venting your rage. Revenge becomes your soul purpose.

The enraged person, without satisfaction, dwells on his or her and becomes even more enraged and focused on waiting for/finding an opportunity for revenge.
Oh, I assure you, Mr. Moore, many of us reading your drivel understand rage quite well.

I note that you don't actually address any of his other points.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
So where do you find the time and lamp light and the tools and materials to make their own SS-type uniforms?
"Attempting".

If you're so skeptical, why don't you go find the book yourself and see what it says in full? I'm not sure why lamplight would be a consideration when they could just open a window.

People incarcerated are capable of surprising ingenuity with limited materials. Watch any documentary on a modern prison, and FFWD to the point where they show the wall o' shivs. Or just click on the image below.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Shivs%20-%20Prison%20knives-1.JPG (72.3 KB, 0 views)
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Old 2nd June 2012, 10:54 AM   #2303
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Originally Posted by I am Bigfoot View Post
I don't know. From my memory they used random bits and scraps.
No one said they looked good or were well made. Just people trying to don the colors of the side that was winning at the moment.

Where do you find the justification to support the Nazis as innocent victims in this supposed lie?
(Psst! He doesn't have any! That's why most of his arguments consist of skepticism and nothing to back it up!)
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Old 2nd June 2012, 10:55 AM   #2304
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
So where do you find the time and lamp light and the tools and materials to make their own SS-type uniforms?
I wondered that myself. I also wonder what the German guards thought of this effort to make SS-type uniforms for the inmates to wear? I know how a modern day prison guard in the United States might react if he saw prisoners making "prison guard"-type uniforms for the inmates to wear. And just how close to the SS uniforms were these "SS-type" uniforms the prisoners were making? I thought Jews weren't allowed to fly the swastika flag or give the Nazi salute or say "Heil Hitler" I'm pretty sure that Jews making an "SS-type uniform" would be similarly received.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 11:02 AM   #2305
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Originally Posted by I am Bigfoot View Post
I don't know. From my memory they used random bits and scraps.
No one said they looked good or were well made. Just people trying to don the colors of the side that was winning at the moment.

Where do you find the justification to support the Nazis as innocent victims in this supposed lie?
random bits and scraps? From your memory? You remember reading about these prisoner made SS-type uniforms? Whatever...
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Old 2nd June 2012, 11:24 AM   #2306
Clayton Moore
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Originally Posted by I am Bigfoot View Post
I don't know. From my memory they used random bits and scraps.
No one said they looked good or were well made. Just people trying to don the colors of the side that was winning at the moment.

Where do you find the justification to support the Nazis as innocent victims in this supposed lie?
Who ever said they were innocent? War is evil. War is decided upon by leaders.

The gas chamber lies are simply ridiculous. Two cottages were said to be gas chambers. Shower rooms were actually supposed to be gas chambers. How many times more than ONCE could the Germans fool Jewish people or anybody with the shower premise without them going completely berserk?


The Holocaust lies demand that the Germans were able organize over 12 million noncombatants and captured military and systematically kill them and dispose of the bodies while fighting and supporting a land, sea and air war on three fronts and supporting their own civilian population.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 11:34 AM   #2307
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Who ever said they were innocent? War is evil. War is decided upon by leaders.

The gas chamber lies are simply ridiculous. Two cottages were said to be gas chambers. Shower rooms were actually supposed to be gas chambers. How many times more than ONCE could the Germans fool Jewish people or anybody with the shower premise without them going completely berserk?


The Holocaust lies demand that the Germans were able organize over 12 million noncombatants and captured military and systematically kill them and dispose of the bodies while fighting and supporting a land, sea and air war on three fronts and supporting their own civilian population.
So...again. Mostly personal incredulity that people could be killed by a fascist government. Stunning. Who said they needed to fool the Jews all the time every time? Has anyone made that claim?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 11:35 AM   #2308
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Originally Posted by Dogzilla View Post
random bits and scraps? From your memory? You remember reading about these prisoner made SS-type uniforms? Whatever...
From what I read. You know what I meant. Stop being so god damned disingenuous. You aren't being cute when you do that.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:56 PM   #2309
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Originally Posted by Dogzilla View Post
Yeah I wasn't really buying into that "Oh the Ostjuden were so tiny.." argument either. Of course people today are taller than they were seventy years ago. And maybe eastern European Jews were a little smaller than their immediate neighbors. But these people weren't pygmies. They weren't even Chinese or Mexicans.
On the contrary, Mexicans is pretty much exactly what they were, according to the contemporary anthropological studies of Polish Jews.

Quote:
It does show Jews who appear to be shorter than the other people in the picture. Some of them are significantly shorter than the others. But forget about height for a second. Look at the emaciated condition those people are in! All that starving in the ghetto and heavy labor has turned them into walking skeletons. Short walking skeletons.
Dude, remember context. You're looking at photos from 1940, two whole years before the majority of Belzec victims were deported there. Even regular rationing for ordinary civilians caused average weights to fall across most of Europe during the war; for Jews in Poland, you're talking a prolonged period of undernourishment and food shortages in an economy that was experiencing significant inflation.

Quote:
Taller men more likely to be spared for labor? It really depends on the type of labor but I agree that there are certain jobs where being tall has an advantage. So I'll let than slide without demanding any, ya know, evidence that what you're saying is true.

But tall men are more likely to become fugitives?
Overall, more men than women would be selected for the kinds of work performed by Jews in western and eastern Galicia during 1942, eg the building of Durchgangsstrasse IV in eastern Galicia. In western Galicia as in other parts of western Poland, shtetl Jews were subjected to selection before deportation and the healthiest men and women were dispatched to forced labour camps. SS officers carrying out selections had to have some criteria to choose the labourers, and since very few selections were carried out in order to skim off skilled artisans, the main criteria would be physical strength, which correlates with height. Simply put, the runtiest and weakest Jews were significantly more likely to be deported than the healthiest, strongest and tallest Jews, while the bias in favour of male workers would skew the profile towards women, and thus reduce average height still further.

This would be quite explicit with many early transports in the first half of 1942, i.e. the oldest victims of Belzec, since these transports were composed of entirely surplus populations of children and the elderly, eg from the Lublin ghetto in March-April 1942.

The majority of Jews who tried to escape were young men and women, with few families and few elderly Jews; the fact that this demographic escaped more frequently would further lower average height on the deportation transports, and by the time the transports arrived, escape attempts from the transports carried out by young physically fit men and women would have shaved a little more height off again.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:00 PM   #2310
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Who ever said they were innocent? War is evil. War is decided upon by leaders.

The gas chamber lies are simply ridiculous. Two cottages were said to be gas chambers. Shower rooms were actually supposed to be gas chambers. How many times more than ONCE could the Germans fool Jewish people or anybody with the shower premise without them going completely berserk?
They didn't need for it to succeed more than once.

Quote:
The Holocaust lies demand that the Germans were able organize over 12 million noncombatants and captured military and systematically kill them and dispose of the bodies while fighting and supporting a land, sea and air war on three fronts and supporting their own civilian population.
It's fairly obvious they couldn't do any of that well. But the Nazis did think they could do it, afterall the Slavs, etc were just untermenschen they shouldn't be able to put up much of a fight and "one good kick and the whole structure will fall in."
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:02 PM   #2311
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
The Holocaust lies demand that the Germans were able organize over 12 million noncombatants and captured military and systematically kill them and dispose of the bodies while fighting and supporting a land, sea and air war on three fronts and supporting their own civilian population.
No, your lies demand that you ignore or dismiss the mountains of evidence which contradict you, including confessions by those involved and physical evidence, and pretend that your willful ignorance of most of it is somehow less important than the fact that you really, *really* feel the need to justify your hate by posting those lies.

Just to choose an example at random, let's talk about the Jäger Report.

One unit, one area, 5 months, ~140k victims.

Fully a third of them reported as having been children. That's close to 350 murders *per day* of innocent youngsters.

Its author, found hiding under an assumed name, arrested by *German* police and scheduled for trial in a *German* court.

Who, far from denying his acts, told his fellow Germans he was acting from a sense of duty in overseeing the cold blooded murders of those children.

Where would he have gotten the idea that killing children was his duty, CM?

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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:12 PM   #2312
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
The Holocaust lies demand that the Germans were able organize over 12 million noncombatants and captured military and systematically kill them and dispose of the bodies while fighting and supporting a land, sea and air war on three fronts and supporting their own civilian population.
And so we're back to your incredulity about the feasibility of moving large populations around during wartime. Maybe you ought to read something, like Kulischer's 1943 study of 'The Displacement of Population in Europe', and realise how stupid you're being.

Considerably more than 12 million people were displaced by the Nazis. 10 million or so prisoners of war were moved around, 7 million foreign workers, a million political prisoners, millions of civilians displaced in colonisation programs or repatriation schemes, several million moved away from combat zones or the coast, along with transporting 17 million German soldiers from one end of Europe to the other, several times during the war.

But, get this through your thick skull, only a maximum of 3 million Jews were deported. And of those 3 million, 2 million only had to be moved from A to B within the same country, Poland. In other words, no distance at all.

The rest were killed where they lived.

Your incredulity fails. And will continue to fail, it seems, forever, until you bother to learn just a couple of facts about WWII and the Holocaust.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:36 PM   #2313
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
The Holocaust lies demand that the Germans were able organize over 12 million noncombatants and captured military and systematically kill them and dispose of the bodies while fighting and supporting a land, sea and air war on three fronts and supporting their own civilian population.
Distance between Warsaw and Treblinka = 102km

what fun, we can calculate some more distances.

Distance between Lublin and Belzec = 130km
Distance between Rzeszow and Belzec = 124km
Distance between Lwow and Belzec = 85km
Distance between Zamosc and Belzec = 43km

If you want a really long one...
Distance between Bialystok and Auschwitz = 508km
But, oh look, Bratislava to Auschwitz is only 319km
And Theresienstadt to Auschwitz is not much greater, at 523km
Distance between Berlin and Auschwitz = 553km
Distance between Vienna and Auschwitz - 396km
Distance between Budapest and Auschwitz = 514km
Distance between Debrecen and Auschwitz - 444km
Distance between Lodz and Auschwitz - 216km
Distance between Bedzin and Auschwitz = 45km

Most of the victims lived within 600km of their end-destination. Many, a lot closer.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:38 PM   #2314
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Who ever said they were innocent? War is evil. War is decided upon by leaders.

The gas chamber lies are simply ridiculous. Two cottages were said to be gas chambers. Shower rooms were actually supposed to be gas chambers. How many times more than ONCE could the Germans fool Jewish people or anybody with the shower premise without them going completely berserk?
Just say the showers were preparation for transfer to a new camp. In fact, according to Terry Deary in Horrible Histories, they were told things much like that.

Your implied claim that every single Jew would somehow find out and go nuts is ridiculous, especially since Jewish POWs were apparently magically exempt from this bloodthirst, which, as you argued, does not depend on Jews being personally at risk.

Quote:
The Holocaust lies demand that the Germans were able organize over 12 million noncombatants and captured military and systematically kill them and dispose of the bodies while fighting and supporting a land, sea and air war on three fronts and supporting their own civilian population.
So you're admitting the POWs were also at risk, or at least the Team Holocaust version says they were? Because that would demolish your claim that the POWs didn't rebel because they weren't at risk like the Jews were. Not that that house of cards hasn't been knocked down several times over.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 02:11 PM   #2315
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Originally Posted by TSR View Post

Just to choose an example at random, let's talk about the Jäger Report.

One unit, one area, 5 months, ~140k victims.

Fully a third of them reported as having been children. That's close to 350 murders *per day* of innocent youngsters.

Its author, found hiding under an assumed name, arrested by *German* police and scheduled for trial in a *German* court.

Who, far from denying his acts, told his fellow Germans he was acting from a sense of duty in overseeing the cold blooded murders of those children.

Where would he have gotten the idea that killing children was his duty, CM?
You mean the Jagger Reporr. The Jaeger Report, on the other hand, was not written or was forged or covered anti-partisan actions or was only about a little harmless ethnic cleansing or was written by Lynndie England.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 02:20 PM   #2316
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Originally Posted by Nick Terry View Post
what fun, we can calculate some more distances.
Speaking of Colonel Jaeger, the distance from Vilna to Ponar, where in summer and fall of 1941 about 30,000 Jews from Vilna were exterminated, was a bit short of 10 km.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 03:27 PM   #2317
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Originally Posted by Robert Muehlenkamp View Post
Originally Posted by Robert Muehlenkamp View Post
What a shame that Carlo Mattogno didn’t have the assistance of your mathematical genius, because my "bizarre" model and "worst" method are based on the method applied by Mattogno. From the blog "Mattogno, Graf & Kues on the Aktion Reinhard(t) Mass Graves (3)":
A bit hysterical, are we? If I refute Mattogno using his own calculation method, that's not plagiarism where I come from. Maybe you should look up the term.

Originally Posted by Nick Terry
Until you get it through your thick skull that Roberto Muehlenkamp used multiple methods to arrive at his estimates, then there is really nothing to discuss here.
Nick was presumably referring to my establishing grave capacity first without taking into consideration the effect of decomposition and then taking into account that effect.

Calling me names already in your first message? Quite the hysteric, really.
noun
the practice of taking someone else’s work or ideas and passing them off as one’s own.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...s&q=plagiarism
Previously you admitted your model and method was based on Carlo Mattogno’s model and method and now you are admitting you just refuted Carlo Mattogno’s model and method.

Did you use Carlo Mattogno’s model and method or not?

Which is your own model and method?

Originally Posted by Robert Muehlenkamp View Post
Bravo, genius. Now explain the components of your so-much-better formula, tell us what assumptions your figures are based on, and let's see the results of your so-much-better calculation.

(...)

Sounds nice, but what's the genius trying to tell us here? Instead of throwing theoretical wisdom around, show us your calculations of the volume of space occupied by three dead people weighing 43, 43 and 16 kg. (...)
I have already demonstrated in my original post:
Originally Posted by Snaketongue
Using the Holocaust Controversies distribution of 2 adults and 1 child the total volume of all bodies is:

V = 0.0905263 + 0.0905263 + 0.0336842

V = 0.2147368m^3

The average body volume of 2 adults and 1 child is 0.07158 cubic meters. Thus a 21,310 cubic meters burial pit would hold up to 297,713 bodies of adults and children with an average weight of 34 kilograms.
Originally Posted by Robert Muehlenkamp View Post
But first tell us that "Revisionist" guru Mattogno's method (which I also applied) is the worst possible method. I'd like to read that from you. I shall then send Mattogno an e-mail with your opinion about his method.
Did you refute or did you apply Carlo Mattogno’s model and method?

Originally Posted by Robert Muehlenkamp View Post
(...) I don't think such a person would look like the skeleton in your picture, which seems to be emaciated rather than just underweight. I'd say that person's weight is below the lowest range of Untergewicht according to the BMI table. But you are free to demonstrate the contrary.
How to tell if you are anorexic:

Are you fat?
Was your last period more than three months ago?
Does your weight fall below these sort of numbers:
metric:
1.60 metres: 45 kg
1.70 metres: 51 kg
1.80 metres: 57 kg
English:
5 foot: 90 lbs
5 foot 6: 108 lbs
6 foot: 129 lbs
If you answered “yes” to at least two of these questions then there is a good chance you are anorexic. See your doctor to be sure.


http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/anorexia/
Originally Posted by Robert Muehlenkamp View Post
I'd say that depends on the definition of "underweight" and on the degree of undernourishment. A person 1.60 meters tall weighing 48 kg (just 1 kg below what would still be normal weight) would hardly require "constant assistance to move". If you think you can demonstrate that a person this tall weighing 5 kg less would require such assistance, fire away. Throwing unsubstantiated generalities around doesn't cut it.
(...) As the 6 months of semistarvation progressed, the volunteers exhibited many physical changes, including gastrointestinal discomfort; decreased need for sleep; dizziness; headaches; hypersensitivity to noise and light; reduced strength; poor motor control; edema (an excess of fluid causing swelling); hair loss; decreased tolerance for cold temperatures (cold hands and feet); visual disturbances (i.e., inability to focus, eye aches, "spots" in the visual fields); auditory disturbances (i.e., ringing noise in the ears); and paresthesias (i.e., abnormal tingling or prickling sensations, especially in the hands or feet).

http://www.joyproject.org/overcoming/starvation.html
In general, the men responded to semi-starvation by reducing their activity levels. They became tired, weak, listless, apathetic and complained of a lack of energy. (...)

http://www.ednses.com/downloads/effe...starvation.pdf
Originally Posted by Robert Muehlenkamp View Post
Now I'm getting curious. How exactly am I supposed to have "misinterpreted" Charles Provan's experiment (whose results I merely compared with the results I had arrived at by a different method, which you call the "worst" method), and how exactly is my method supposed to be "deceitful"? Please be more specific. And bear in mind that what you are accusing me of regarding my method you are also accusing your guru Mattogno of, for my method is no different from his.

(...) Am I supposed to have been "deceitful" to the disadvantage of my own argument?
The method is deceitful because induce the reader to believe the human body volume variation is absolute proportional to the body mass variation. You applied an imaginary mass value to a hypothetical model which was only defined to estimate the capacity of a mass grave. With the imaginary mass you obtained the hypothetical density of the mass grave. Then, ignoring a scientific established method, you transformed the density into “corpse per cubic meter”. Thus you propose that density variation could estimate the volume of your lower mass odd model. Since you applied unknown values to the Charles A Bay hypothesis, you extrapolated the results.

Originally Posted by Robert Muehlenkamp View Post
Still waiting for your superior decomposition model, my friend. And please show us where you got the idea that every grave was "closed and sealed approxmately each 8 days". I hope for you that you didn't just divide the number of days corresponding to eight months by the number of graves discovered by Prof. Andrzej Kola.
Yes, that is right. If you have a better assumption is up to you to present it.

Originally Posted by Robert Muehlenkamp View Post
I'd love to have a chat with you on the CODOH forum, but unfortunately the CODOH moderator, Mr. Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis, is so afraid of me that he banned me for good from that lovely place (after deleting many of my posts, last time I was there).

(...)

Another thing: If you're also posting your wisdom on CODOH, kindly link the CODOH thread to the discussion here. Thanks.
(...) post which I have already published in the JREF forum (...)

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7042
Originally Posted by Robert Muehlenkamp View Post
(...) How do you explain so large a difference in concentration (14 vs. 18 per cubic meters) despite a low difference in average weight (34 vs. 33.25 kg)?
Bodies per cubic meter is not a measurement.

Originally Posted by Robert Muehlenkamp View Post
(...) bodies of Provan's test group occupy less volume on average than those of the hypothetical test group with 3 adults à 43 kg and 5 children à 16 kg, even though the total and average weights of the latter test group are lower than those of the former:

(...)

(g) Total weight of children (2) kg_7_16

(...)

(m) Total volume m³ of (j)+(k)+(l)_0,142669_0,157895
(n) Average volume per person = (m) ÷ 3_0,047556_0,052632

How do you explain this?
On item (g) you regarded a toddler as a child. This explains why the first average volume is higher than the second average volume on item (m).

If my formula is applied with an appropriate low mass for the toddler (5Kg), the total average volume is:

V = x+y+z

{x = 129/(129+64+5)*0.44/3, y = 64/(129+64+5)*0.44/4, z = 5/(129+64+5)*0.44/1}

x~0.0955556, y~0.0355556, z~0.0111111

V = 0.0955556+0.0355556+0.0111111

V = 0.1422223m^3

x = 0.1422223m^3 /3

x = 0.0474074m^3

Originally Posted by Robert Muehlenkamp View Post
(...)

Now let's look only at the 3*43kg + 5*16 scenario and do the following exercises:
a) cut the weights in half (21.5 kg for adults, 8 kg for children)
b) double the weights (86 kg for adults, 32 kg for children).

(...)

(h) Total weight of test group kg_209_105_418

(...)

(m) Total volume m³ (j)+(k)+(l)_0.157895_0.157895_0.157895

(...) As long as you use the same multiplier or divider for both and the relation between adult weight and child weight is not changed, the average volume occupied by one person in the test group will always be 0.052632 m³, and the concentration of bodies per cubic meter will always be 19.
This is not the appropriate way to estimate capacity of a hypothetical space. The average volume of each body does not represent an accurate factor to estimate the number of bodies which a mass grave could hold. Since bodies of adults, children and toddlers have drastic difference in their absolute volume, the average volume of each group must be applied in accordance with a distribution ratio of adult per child per toddler. Instead to obtain the average volume of x, y and z and then estimate the capacity of a given space, I would use x, y and z in accordance with a body distribution ratio no lower than 2:1:1 or no higher than 3:4:1.

Item (m) of your calculation is a body distribution ratio of 1:1:1. Therefore, if you use the same multiplier or divider with my formula, the expected result is a common factor. If there is no variation in the proportional volume occupied by each group, there is no change of the average volume of each body.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 04:51 PM   #2318
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Who ever said they were innocent? War is evil. War is decided upon by leaders.

The gas chamber lies are simply ridiculous. Two cottages were said to be gas chambers. Shower rooms were actually supposed to be gas chambers. How many times more than ONCE could the Germans fool Jewish people or anybody with the shower premise without them going completely berserk?
How many times do you HAVE to con someone into going to their death, Clayton?

I assure you, humans do not have nine lives.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
The Holocaust lies demand that the Germans were able organize over 12 million noncombatants and captured military and systematically kill them and dispose of the bodies while fighting and supporting a land, sea and air war on three fronts and supporting their own civilian population.
They could also manage to work on super-science projects which never panned out, write long academic treatises, launch archeological expeditions, and of course send forces to places where the chances of a net military advantage were nearly nil.

People in the real world, Clayton, do not operate with 20/20 hindsight either.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 04:54 PM   #2319
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Originally Posted by Dogzilla View Post
I wondered that myself. I also wonder what the German guards thought of this effort to make SS-type uniforms for the inmates to wear? I know how a modern day prison guard in the United States might react if he saw prisoners making "prison guard"-type uniforms for the inmates to wear. And just how close to the SS uniforms were these "SS-type" uniforms the prisoners were making? I thought Jews weren't allowed to fly the swastika flag or give the Nazi salute or say "Heil Hitler" I'm pretty sure that Jews making an "SS-type uniform" would be similarly received.
I'm reminded of several well-documented cases of prisoners or POWs manufacturing mock uniforms that were used in a successful escape.

And remember, the people making SS-like uniforms were almost certainly trustees, not run-of-the-mill prisoners.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 05:10 PM   #2320
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Originally Posted by SnakeTongue View Post

The method is deceitful because induce the reader to believe the human body volume variation is absolute proportional to the body mass variation.
After compression (by weight and soil) and partial decomposition, they are close enough. We aren't playing Tetris here.


Originally Posted by SnakeTongue View Post

Bodies per cubic meter is not a measurement.
ANY properly-defined unit is a measurement. I can give you a currency value in number of pennies. I can give you a crate size in number of medium Braeburns. I can give you a speed in smoots per weekend.

In these calculations, bodies per m^3 is a derived value. It is a useful figure for comparison or for further calculation. Only those who can not understand algebriac manipulation should have trouble with it.
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