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Old 13th April 2012, 11:08 AM   #121
Craig4
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Then we win. There are no goalposts.
Don't bother. He's not the caliber of person who gets taken seriously anyway. I have him on ignore. He amused me as a chew toy for a while but he's a bit of a one trick pony.
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Old 13th April 2012, 11:21 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post
...Do you have any understanding of government/military security that isn't based on movies, television, or conspiracists' hyperbole? I do and the physical security of the facility is not consistent with an operation as sensitive as you suggest...
Not from what I've seen. That's why I put him on Ignore in the first place - his "understanding" of how things worked was a Hollywood/YouTube version, but of course anybody disagreeing with him was lectured in the condescending tones of a 12-year-old fresh from a Matrix and V for Vendetta marathon. From what I've seen quoted, that hasn't changed, nor have his childish notions of what constitutes "evidence". I already waste too much time giving FF88/David C my attention; the junior model, SHC, won't get it unless he wants to join the Apollo "hoax" thread.

The funny thing is, HAARP has a stated military reserach purpose perfectly commensurate with its observed characteristics. Researchers from UAF and other civilian institutions publish scholarly articles on its real operations all the time in open literature. But because they don't understand it, and because (IMO) it's got a cool acronym, the conspiracy nuts can't accept the reality, and project all their paranoia and ignorance onto it.
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Old 13th April 2012, 11:31 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
The funny thing is, HAARP has a stated military reserach purpose perfectly commensurate with its observed characteristics. Researchers from UAF and other civilian institutions publish scholarly articles on its real operations all the time in open literature. But because they don't understand it, and because (IMO) it's got a cool acronym, the conspiracy nuts can't accept the reality, and project all their paranoia and ignorance onto it.
It would not surprise me in the least if some CTs claim that the fictional HARP system from the movie Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins is a whistleblow.
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Old 13th April 2012, 11:59 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Don't bother. He's not the caliber of person who gets taken seriously anyway. I have him on ignore. He amused me as a chew toy for a while but he's a bit of a one trick pony.
Yeah, that's the problem. His one trick is the argument from ignorance, following by the condescending lecture about how much less brainwashed he is than all us government cheerleaders, followed by the ham-fisted attempts to shift the burden of proof. He's too predictable to be much amusement as a troll.

At least AL has good timing with trying to regurgitate the Titanic CT on the weekend of the anniversary.
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Old 13th April 2012, 12:04 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by IndridCold View Post
A friend of mine is coming to me with his youtube videos blaming some disasters on the HAARP telling me it is Nicola Tesla's death ray and that it's going to split the Earth.
Your friend needs to do some more research, he's mixing unrelated conspiracies now. Tesla's nonsense claim that he could split the earth was based on mechanical resonnance, and completely unrelated to EMF or anything HAARP could do.
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Old 13th April 2012, 01:59 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
He asked you a question. Specifically, EXACTLY what evidence would convince you?
I don't know until I see it and am convinced. What do you have?
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Old 13th April 2012, 02:17 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert View Post
I don't know until I see it and am convinced. What do you have?
Now all you have to convince people you're worth the effort to try to convince (given your terms).

Have at it. Convince us.
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Old 13th April 2012, 02:19 PM   #128
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SpringHallConvert, I'd like you to join in a beauty contest I'm sponsoring. What? You want to know what the evaluation criteria are before entering? I don't know until I see you.
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Old 13th April 2012, 03:36 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert View Post
I don't know until I see it and am convinced. What do you have?
This is it? I was hoping for something more entertaining, or at least something that demonstrated some care and attention to his craft.

Oh well, my hope that he would grow into something worth reading for the luz has failed to materialise. Onto ignore you go.
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Old 13th April 2012, 04:35 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert View Post
I don't know until I see it and am convinced. What do you have?
Since you categorically refuse to admit that evidence exists proving anything to you is like pounding sand down a rathole.
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Old 13th April 2012, 04:40 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
It pumps RF energy into a patch of the ionosphere. It's good for studying some of the ionospheric behaviors and effects on radio propagation, and thus has military as well as civilian applications in communications.
Ah, but you see, according to some CTers, since RF can be used as a carrying wave, that means that RF energy can be used to carry other kinds of energy, so it doesn't matter that RF energy can't do ______, because the unnamed other sort of energy could do it.

Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert View Post
I don't know until I see it and am convinced. What do you have?
Lets say that any civilians who wanted to were not only allowed to inspect every room and every square inch of the HAARP facility, but were also given complete access to every computer, and were allowed to take apart every single piece of equipment to study their insides. Would that convince you? If so, would anything short of that convince you? If not, why wouldn't it convince you?

Also, do you doubt the government's claims about HAARP just as much as you doubt any other claim the government makes, or do you doubt the HAARP claims more? If you doubt the HAARP claims more, why?
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Old 13th April 2012, 05:25 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
This is it? I was hoping for something more entertaining, or at least something that demonstrated some care and attention to his craft.

Oh well, my hope that he would grow into something worth reading for the luz has failed to materialise. Onto ignore you go.
There's that Government Truther religious tendency I referenced in the 9/11 forum oozing to the surface:

"Think as I do or I'll ignore you!"

How persuasive.
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Old 13th April 2012, 05:28 PM   #133
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I think that a battery powered Nerf gun can be made into a real assault rifle firing real bullets if you just replace the stock spring with a much stronger one!
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Old 13th April 2012, 05:35 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
I think that a battery powered Nerf gun can be made into a real assault rifle firing real bullets if you just replace the stock spring with a much stronger one!
Nonsense. You also need some Top Secret MilSpec Nerf and a free energy cell.
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Old 13th April 2012, 05:37 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert View Post
I don't know until I see it and am convinced. What do you have?
How would you know it when you saw it?
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Old 13th April 2012, 05:47 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Matthew Cline View Post
Ah, but you see, according to some CTers, since RF can be used as a carrying wave, that means that RF energy can be used to carry other kinds of energy, so it doesn't matter that RF energy can't do ______, because the unnamed other sort of energy could do it.
The funny thing is that here we have a system whose military funding, and the reasons the military has an interest, are publicly described - a place that you can fly over in your small plane, a place that you can walk through in an open house - a place that is so super-secret that some of the guys using it are from the Russian Academy of Sciences - and because it's so obviously not the McGuffin, to the crackpots it's the ultimate McGuffin.

You are partly right, though. It turns out HF radio waves are an excellent carrier for ignorant paranoia.
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Old 13th April 2012, 06:10 PM   #137
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HAARP attacks my back yard.
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Old 13th April 2012, 06:45 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert View Post
Just ask the U.S. government what it does, because you can be certain that they will tell you the truth. The government always tells the truth.
Where did you ever get a crazy idea like that?

All governments tell lies, there isn't a single person here that will tell you otherwise. But that doesn't mean they only tell lies.

Think of it this way, when you were a child, did your parents ever tell you stories about the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny or Santa Clause? If so they lied to you. Does that mean that everything else they ever told you was also a lie?

Governments lie to their people for numerous reasons and while I'm not going to get into the ethics of such actions, there are things that the general public is better off not knowing. There is dialog from Men in Black that comes to mind "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."

Don't assume it's a lie without a reason to suspect such.
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Old 14th April 2012, 12:27 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
He amused me as a chew toy for a while but he's a bit of a one trick pony.
That's what made him the solitary person on my "ignore" list. I think in 10 years I've only had a total of 2 people on "ignore" lists.
I don't mind, in fact, I enjoy debating with people, even if their arguments are bizzarre, and wrong-headed. However, as you point out, he is a one trick pony, "If you don't believe what I believe, then you believe everything the government tells you." Seriously, that seems to be the person's sole message. It's boring.
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Old 14th April 2012, 04:12 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
I think that a battery powered Nerf gun can be made into a real assault rifle firing real bullets if you just replace the stock spring with a much stronger one!

This thread has jumped the Haarp.
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Old 14th April 2012, 04:19 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
That's what made him the solitary person on my "ignore" list. I think in 10 years I've only had a total of 2 people on "ignore" lists.
I don't mind, in fact, I enjoy debating with people, even if their arguments are bizzarre, and wrong-headed. However, as you point out, he is a one trick pony, "If you don't believe what I believe, then you believe everything the government tells you." Seriously, that seems to be the person's sole message. It's boring.
Well, what do you know? More government trutherism religious mumbo jumbo.
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Old 14th April 2012, 04:57 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert View Post
Well, what do you know? More government trutherism religious mumbo jumbo.
Do you really believe that physics are dictated to us by some government bureaucrat?
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Old 14th April 2012, 05:29 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Do you really believe that physics are dictated to us by some government bureaucrat?
It's the Bureau of Approved Physics Bureau.
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Old 14th April 2012, 05:45 AM   #144
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THis is the HAARP website

http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

Overview of Active Ionospheric Research
In the field of geophysics, the use of high power transmitters, such as the one located at the HAARP facility, to study the upper atmosphere is called "active ionospheric research." The HAARP facility will be used to introduce a small, known amount of energy into a specific ionospheric layer for the purpose of studying the complex physical processes that occur in these naturally occurring plasma regions that are created each day by the sun. The effects of this added energy are limited to a small region directly over the HAARP observatory ranging in size from 9 km in radius to as much as 40 km in radius.
It is important to realize that HAARP interacts only with charged (or ionized) particles in a limited region of the ionosphere directly over the facility. Interaction occurs because a charged particle (electron or positive ion) will react to an external electric field. HAARP does not interact with the neutral atoms and molecules that make up the bulk of the gas at all atmospheric heights.

When the HAARP HF transmitter is shut down at the end of an experiment, any ionospheric effects rapidly dissipate, becoming imperceptible over time frames ranging from fractions of a second to minutes. Extensive research conducted over many years at other active ionospheric research facilities around the world has shown that there are no permanent or long term effects resulting from this research method. The following sections discuss these points in greater detail.

Last edited by Dcdrac; 14th April 2012 at 05:48 AM.
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Old 14th April 2012, 06:56 AM   #145
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SHC, you were asked what evidence you would accept that would show that Haarp wasn't a weapon. You dodged this question. Why?
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Old 14th April 2012, 07:01 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Do you really believe that physics are dictated to us by some government bureaucrat?
Unfortunately, people like David C/FatFreddy88 and (from quoted items), SHC, really do believe this. They don't understand science and engineering, but instead of recognizing their limitations, they think no one who does could disagree with them. Thus, if you point out that well-understood principles disprove their claims, you are either (a) ignorant, and fooled by the real experts, or (b) knowledgeable, and lying about it.

One way this manifests itself is FF88's claims that I don't actually believe what I'm saying about Apollo. Since I am an expert in various aspects of space flight, his worldview requires that I must be lying; I can't be telling the truth as I know it, or his reality-shield starts to develop cracks. (This goes much more in the case of JayUtah, but he's not indulging FF88's obsession any more.)

Another way is folks like FF88 and SHC insisting that the record (documentation, data, hardware, etc.) is simply government propaganda which can't be independently verified. In other words, your "government bureaucrat" dictates how things are supposed to work, and everyone except a small group of insiders is helplessly fooled by it. This, of course, is laughed at by anyone who understands the relevant fields, and especially by anyone who works in them.

No, it's not just some Agent Smith telling us that what the space radiation environment is like, or what an HF antenna farm can and can't do. It's physics and engineering, and the experience of practitioners in these fields worldwide. But if you can't stand the results, it's much easier to pretend it's all lies spread by some malevolent government priesthood than to learn how the real world works.

In support of this, FF88 and SHC deploy their own loyalty tests, wherein if you don't agree with the interpretation of some video, or if you evaluate rather than automatically reject information from "the government", you are therefore branded as a disinfo agent/shill/mindless slave. "You're with us or you're against us." The irony, of course, is that they are dedicatedly using the same mindset and method as the entities they profess to despise.
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Old 14th April 2012, 07:16 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert View Post
Well, what do you know? More government trutherism religious mumbo jumbo.
Calling you out on your idiotic and irrational debate "techniques" is hardly mumbo jumbo. Your reaction to it sure is though.
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Old 14th April 2012, 08:22 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert View Post
Well, what do you know? More government trutherism religious mumbo jumbo.
Well what do you know? More name-calling.
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Old 14th April 2012, 08:35 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Calling you out on your idiotic and irrational debate "techniques" is hardly mumbo jumbo. Your reaction to it sure is though.
Funny how he confuses religious mumbo jumbo with an inability to grasp.
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Old 14th April 2012, 12:50 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by JimBenArm View Post
It's the Bureau of Approved Physics Bureau.
I believe you worked in the Gravity Division making entire ships sink and rise.
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Old 14th April 2012, 12:59 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
I believe you worked in the Gravity Division making entire ships sink and rise.
He spent his time working with tubes filled with Seamen?
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Old 14th April 2012, 07:37 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert View Post
There's that Government Truther religious tendency I referenced in the 9/11 forum oozing to the surface:

"Think as I do or I'll ignore you!"

How persuasive.
Fixed that for you.
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Old 15th April 2012, 12:01 AM   #153
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Have any of the government truthers yet posted any evidence of HAARP's inability to be used as a weapon?

[scans latest replies]

Nope, not yet. Still just regurgitating whatever the government or HAARP website says.

That's what I figured!
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Old 15th April 2012, 12:10 AM   #154
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SHC, what if HAARP is controlling your mind right now? Just to **** with you? Can you prove this is not happening?
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Old 15th April 2012, 02:29 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert View Post
Have any of the government truthers yet posted any evidence of HAARP's inability to be used as a weapon?

[scans latest replies]

Nope, not yet. Still just regurgitating whatever the government or HAARP website says.

That's what I figured!
Let's talk specifics then, shall we? I'm going to start with the claims that HAARP can cause earthquakes:

So what really causes earthquakes?
Originally Posted by HLN
Let's first take a look at the earth. The earth is made up of 4 main layers-the inner core, the outer core, the mantle and the crust. The crust is where we live, on the surface of the earth. Below the crust lies the mantle, which is made up of solids, liquids and gases.

The lithosphere is made up of the crust and the upper most layer of the mantle, and is divided up into 12 major plates. As the plates of the lithosphere shift, weak spots, or "faults" develop. When this shifting has built up over long periods of time, the crust of the earth weakens and an earthquake occurs. The place where the crust is weakened is called a "fault".

Sometimes the movement of plates is slow, with great pressure accumulating over time. Other times, plates become locked together and when pressure has reached a certain point, the plates are released and an earthquake happens. If this earthquake happens in a populated area, the effects on mankind can be devastating[Source].
Now let's ask ourselves, is it possible to induce an earthquake? Yes... in theory. One could drill holes at predetermined depths around an active fault line and set off a series of nukes to cause earthquakes (although the original idea for such a action would be to alleviate stress at faults, thus preventing earthquakes). This is obviously putting aside the ensuing complications.

This is currently impossible since it would require drilling to depths that we can't get to and using warheads far in excess of anything in existence. The energy in warheads currently in existence is far in excess of anything that HAARP is capable of producing and since the laws of thermodynamics exist and we have such a sound understanding of them we can be reasonably sure that HAARP doesn't cause earthquakes.

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Old 15th April 2012, 02:54 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert View Post
Have any of the government truthers yet posted any evidence of HAARP's inability to be used as a weapon?

[scans latest replies]

Nope, not yet. Still just regurgitating whatever the government or HAARP website says.

That's what I figured!
Telecommunications squirrel sez you are wrong, and have no evidence of HAARP weaponisation.
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Old 15th April 2012, 04:57 AM   #157
aggle-rithm
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Originally Posted by SpringHallConvert View Post
Have any of the government truthers yet posted any evidence of HAARP's inability to be used as a weapon?
The rational default position would be that it is not a weapon. I come to that conclusion because it lacks one critical attribute that all weapons have.

It doesn't go anywhere.

So unless it's designed to wait patiently until its target happens to move into its line-of-sight, it ain't a weapon.
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Old 15th April 2012, 05:57 AM   #158
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Now I address some other specific claims about HAARP, weather control.

SHC it's no conspiracy theory saying that there's an interest and experiments looking into weather control. It's undeniable, indisputable fact and, what's more, it's not a top secret project or anything remotely new. A version of weather control exists where clouds are 'seeded' using various means since at least the 1950's all across the globe, although the results are debatable. That isn't to say that other means aren't being looked into (and they are) but the potential applications are endless.

However, and this is important to know, international law has proactively prohibited such technology to be used as a weapon. It's just as well if you stop and think about it, who knows what kind of detrimental effects it would have on the environment used for destructive purposes?

So what does any of that have to do with HAARP? Not a damned thing. None of the ideas involving weather control involve involving HF or any other radio waves.


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Last edited by Mudcat; 15th April 2012 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 15th April 2012, 06:33 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Journal of Geophysical Research[/quote
JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH, VOL. 113, A10201, 12 PP., 2008
doi:10.1029/2008JA013157

Magnetospheric amplification and emission triggering by ELF/VLF waves injected by the 3.6 MW HAARP ionospheric heater

M. Gołkowski, U. S. Inan, A. R. Gibby, M. B. Cohen
STAR Laboratory, Department of Electrical Engineering, Stanford University, Stanford, California, USA

The HF dipole array of the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) in Gakona, Alaska, was recently upgraded to 180 elements, facilitating operations at a total radiated power level of 3.6 MW and an effective radiated power of ∼575 MW. In the first experiments at the new power level, the HAARP array is used for magnetospheric wave injection. Modulated heating of auroral electrojet currents in the ionosphere yields radiation in the ELF/VLF frequency range. The HAARP-generated signals are injected into the magnetosphere, where they propagate in the whistler mode in field-aligned “ducts,” allowing them to be observed at the conjugate point on a ship-borne receiver and on autonomous buoy platforms. The observation of the 1-hop signals is accompanied by the observation of associated 2-hop components in the northern hemisphere, which have reflected from the ionospheric boundary in the southern hemisphere. The observed signals are accompanied by triggered emissions and exhibit temporal amplification of 15–25 dB/s and bandwidth broadening to ∼50 Hz. Amplification occurs at injected signal frequencies selected in near real time on the basis of observations of natural emission activity, and only certain components of the frequency-time formats transmitted are amplified. Observations at multiple sites and dispersion analysis show that the signals are injected into the magnetosphere directly above the HF heater. The duration of echo observation and the prevalence of 1-hop observations are consistent with statistics from 1986 Siple Station experiments. The particle-trapping wave amplitude near the magnetic equator is estimated in the range 0.1–0.4 pT and gyroresonance with 10 keV–100 keV electrons.
Translation: RF energy radiated by HAARP array stimulates generation of low-frequency waves, which bounce back and forth. Potential applications in communications and (possibly) detection. I think this would be of interest to archaeologists and geologists as well as the military. IndridCold, if you're still interested, note that this is an example of published scientific research describing what HAARP does, which matches the descriptions, stated motivations, and observed (by anyone who cares to go there) characteristics of the HAARP research facility.

Last edited by sts60; 15th April 2012 at 06:39 AM. Reason: fixed typo
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Old 15th April 2012, 06:50 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Radio Science
RADIO SCIENCE, VOL. 42, RS3025, 8 PP., 2007
doi:10.1029/2005RS003326

Generation of VLF waves in the ionosphere with coherent dual-site excitation

A. Y. Wong
High Power Auroral Stimulation (HIPAS) Observatory, Fairbanks, Alaska, USA
Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of California, Los Angeles, California, USA


E. Wei, J. Pau
High Power Auroral Stimulation (HIPAS) Observatory, Fairbanks, Alaska, USA

High Power Auroral Stimulation (HIPAS) Observatory and High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) are two radiating facilities in the Arctic region separated by a distance of the order of VLF wavelengths. The current-carrying plasma in the E region of the ionosphere above each facility can be modulated to radiate VLF waves via HF heating. Experiments demonstrated that VLF waves can be coherently excited by these two facilities through constructive interference that is sensitive to the phase difference between these two sources.
Translation: RF energy radiated by HAARP and HIPAS can generate low-frequency radio waves. Potential applications in communications and (possibly) detection (see prior post).
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