ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 27th April 2012, 05:08 AM   #1
EGarrett
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,064
Can Bob and Tom vote to rape Jane?

Bob proposes a bill that raping the young, attractive Jane should be legalized. Tom, who lives with them, likes this idea. It is opened up to a vote among the three of them and it passes by a 2-to-1 majority.

Jane disputes this result.

Bob and Tom argue the following:

1. Jane can spare it. She's naked everyday and it will only take a few minutes.

2. It will be voluntary. She will be given the option to participate willfully. But if she doesn't, she will be forcefully tied up and locked in the basement. But Bob says that counts as voluntary.

3. It is for the public good. Most of the house will be happy.

4. Sex is necessary for a population to survive. As is sexual-sanity. Jane says that sex happens voluntarily, Bob says that that's not good enough. Men are lonely and frustrated every day, and it causes bad things to happen, on top of having no next generation. Surely Jane does not want their house population to die off.

5. Jane, being the youngest and most attractive, must contribute a bit more. She has her healthy looks and body because of the quality food and shelter and fitness centers that modern society created for her. She has stolen from society in order to be so beautiful and fit, therefore she must give back and be violated.

6. It is democracy in action. Since a majority of people voted for it in a formal procedure, it doesn't count as a crime.

Jane stutters and starts to get very nervous. They roll up their sleeves and move toward her, but then they notice you, an outsider, who heard their discussion. You aren't allowed to vote, being a non-citizen of the house, but they ask your opinion of the issue. As Jane is backed into the corner and starting to hyperventilate.

What do you say to them?
__________________
"So if a tard came up to me and offered to sell me 10 bitcoins for $100, not only would I not do it, I think I'd punch him in the head, just for being stupid." -The Central Scrutinizer

Last edited by EGarrett; 27th April 2012 at 05:16 AM.
EGarrett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:17 AM   #2
DrDave
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,658
Wouldn't it be like murder. If it's legalised it's no longer rape.

Why is this in USA politics?
DrDave is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:18 AM   #3
stokes234
Master Poster
 
stokes234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,295
Are you trying to make this look equivalent to taxing the rich? Because if so, it's worth pointing out that on the one hand you've got someone being forced to go through a painful, traumatic, sometimes life-destroying experience for the benefit of others, whereas on the other hand you've got some of the most well-off people on the planet being forced to not be quite so well-off. Those are different.

If you were literally just proposing it as a straight-out thought experiment with no hidden meaning, i'd still say no because it's a horrible, horrible idea.
__________________
"I offer the world my genius. All I ask in return is that the world cover my expenses." Hugo Rune
stokes234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:20 AM   #4
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 14,326
Most democracies say they support certain rights and try to make it difficult for a simple majority to overturn those rights. In the case of Jane, she may or may not be protected from rape depending upon the country/state.

Rape is probably a less clear-cut example than you might think, in fact.

But in other cases such as taking someone's life it might be even less so.

In some ways this ends up being a good thing. In some ways this ends up being a bad thing. While it is wrong to murder people, many countries and states are given the power to do so depending upon the judicial system.

Life is complicated and political systems that work well tend to be complicated too.
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:24 AM   #5
DavidJames
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 8,297
Originally Posted by stokes234 View Post
Are you trying to make this look equivalent to taxing the rich?
Either that or "socialized" health care mandate.

Regardless, it's pathetic and probably should have been started in the AAH section.
__________________
I will no longer respond to those who choose to have tools of murder as their avatars.
Everyone is a skeptic except, of course, for the stuff that they believe
Beaver Hateman: Is your argument that human life loses value proportionate to the number of humans available? Malcolm Kirkpatrick: That's part of the argument. Value is determined by supply and demand.

Last edited by DavidJames; 27th April 2012 at 05:26 AM.
DavidJames is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:27 AM   #6
EGarrett
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,064
Originally Posted by stokes234 View Post
Are you trying to make this look equivalent to taxing the rich? Because if so, it's worth pointing out that on the one hand you've got someone being forced to go through a painful, traumatic, sometimes life-destroying experience for the benefit of others, whereas on the other hand you've got some of the most well-off people on the planet being forced to not be quite so well-off. Those are different.
Bob listens to you, strokes his chin, and replies that if Jane goes through it willingly and doesn't fight so much, it's just a matter of laying down for a few minutes and she may even enjoy the experience.

They're still looking at you. Jane is starting to tremble in fear.
__________________
"So if a tard came up to me and offered to sell me 10 bitcoins for $100, not only would I not do it, I think I'd punch him in the head, just for being stupid." -The Central Scrutinizer
EGarrett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:29 AM   #7
Skepticemea
Master Poster
 
Skepticemea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,764
WTF?
__________________
Learn the words!
Skepticemea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:30 AM   #8
EGarrett
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,064
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Either that or "socialized" health care mandate.

Regardless, it's pathetic and probably should have been started in the AAH section.
Bob says it's not pathetic, it's very relevant to the household as he has shown, and if that's all you have to say then he feels their logic stands and if you don't mind, please go away so they can get on with their rape.
__________________
"So if a tard came up to me and offered to sell me 10 bitcoins for $100, not only would I not do it, I think I'd punch him in the head, just for being stupid." -The Central Scrutinizer
EGarrett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:30 AM   #9
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,451
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
Bob proposes a bill that raping the young, attractive Jane should be legalized. Tom, who lives with them, likes this idea. It is opened up to a vote among the three of them and it passes by a 2-to-1 majority.

Jane disputes this result.

Bob and Tom argue the following:

1. Jane can spare it. She's naked everyday and it will only take a few minutes.

2. It will be voluntary. She will be given the option to participate willfully. But if she doesn't, she will be forcefully tied up and locked in the basement. But Bob says that counts as voluntary.

3. It is for the public good. Most of the house will be happy.

4. Sex is necessary for a population to survive. As is sexual-sanity. Jane says that sex happens voluntarily, Bob says that that's not good enough. Men are lonely and frustrated every day, and it causes bad things to happen, on top of having no next generation. Surely Jane does not want their house population to die off.

5. Jane, being the youngest and most attractive, must contribute a bit more. She has her healthy looks and body because of the quality food and shelter and fitness centers that modern society created for her. She has stolen from society in order to be so beautiful and fit, therefore she must give back and be violated.

6. It is democracy in action. Since a majority of people voted for it in a formal procedure, it doesn't count as a crime.

Jane stutters and starts to get very nervous. They roll up their sleeves and move toward her, but then they notice you, an outsider, who heard their discussion. You aren't allowed to vote, being a non-citizen of the house, but they ask your opinion of the issue. As Jane is backed into the corner and starting to hyperventilate.

What do you say to them?


Can I ask what you're trying to draw a false equivalency to?
__________________
Refenestrate the delusional.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:31 AM   #10
BenBurch
Gatekeeper of The Left
 
BenBurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 35,272
Would still be a violation of federal civil rights and your law falls.

Also a really stupid way to try to make the point you appear to have been trying to make. A point which itself was pretty much illogical.
__________________
For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?
BenBurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:31 AM   #11
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
 
TubbaBlubba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sweden
Posts: 8,845
A democracy that does not protect basic rights is not a very useful democracy.
__________________
There are two kinds of fact - the trivially true, and the technically correct.
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:33 AM   #12
stokes234
Master Poster
 
stokes234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,295
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
Bob listens to you, strokes his chin, and replies that if Jane goes through it willingly and doesn't fight so much, it's just a matter of laying down for a few minutes and she may even enjoy the experience.

They're still looking at you. Jane is starting to tremble in fear.
Is bob... is bob in the room with us right now, garett?
__________________
"I offer the world my genius. All I ask in return is that the world cover my expenses." Hugo Rune
stokes234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:33 AM   #13
DrDave
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,658
Originally Posted by Skepticemea View Post
WTF?
You've summed up the thread very nicely there!
DrDave is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:36 AM   #14
EGarrett
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,064
Originally Posted by stokes234 View Post
Is bob... is bob in the room with us right now, garett?
For the purposes of this thought experiment, yes. I can be in the room too, and I have plenty to say to Bob and Tom, but what do you say in reply to him? He's answered your statement about how traumatizing it would be by saying that if Jane doesn't fight it won't be bad at all, and she may even enjoy it.
__________________
"So if a tard came up to me and offered to sell me 10 bitcoins for $100, not only would I not do it, I think I'd punch him in the head, just for being stupid." -The Central Scrutinizer
EGarrett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:41 AM   #15
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,451
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
For the purposes of this thought experiment, yes. I can be in the room too, and I have plenty to say to Bob and Tom, but what do you say in reply to him? He's answered your statement about how traumatizing it would be by saying that if Jane doesn't fight it won't be bad at all, and she may even enjoy it.
No, seriously, what are you planning on comparing this too that won't be at all like it? I want to know now. It's like the Xfactor and that bit before the adverts when they do 'COMING UP!!' etc.

I am on the edge of my seat waiting for the metaphorical rabbit to come out of theslightly wonky hat.

Unfortunately I believe that what's going to come out of the hat is going to be an otter, but you're going to insist it's a rabbit.
__________________
Refenestrate the delusional.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:41 AM   #16
EGarrett
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,064
Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Would still be a violation of federal civil rights and your law falls.
Bob wants to know what you mean? They voted 2-to-1 to do it. He asks you, isn't law established by democracy?

Quote:
Also a really stupid way to try to make the point you appear to have been trying to make. A point which itself was pretty much illogical.
I will tell you once. If you try to make personal attacks toward me, you will receive personal attacks, and you won't enjoy it.
__________________
"So if a tard came up to me and offered to sell me 10 bitcoins for $100, not only would I not do it, I think I'd punch him in the head, just for being stupid." -The Central Scrutinizer
EGarrett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:42 AM   #17
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,451
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
Bob wants to know what you mean? They voted 2-to-1 to do it. He asks you, isn't law established by democracy?

I will tell you once. If you try to make personal attacks toward me, you will receive personal attacks, and you won't enjoy it.
Did the bolded bit come with dramatic music?
__________________
Refenestrate the delusional.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:43 AM   #18
BStrong
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 6,111
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
Bob proposes a bill that raping the young, attractive Jane should be legalized. Tom, who lives with them, likes this idea. It is opened up to a vote among the three of them and it passes by a 2-to-1 majority.

Jane disputes this result.

Bob and Tom argue the following:

1. Jane can spare it. She's naked everyday and it will only take a few minutes.

2. It will be voluntary. She will be given the option to participate willfully. But if she doesn't, she will be forcefully tied up and locked in the basement. But Bob says that counts as voluntary.

3. It is for the public good. Most of the house will be happy.

4. Sex is necessary for a population to survive. As is sexual-sanity. Jane says that sex happens voluntarily, Bob says that that's not good enough. Men are lonely and frustrated every day, and it causes bad things to happen, on top of having no next generation. Surely Jane does not want their house population to die off.

5. Jane, being the youngest and most attractive, must contribute a bit more. She has her healthy looks and body because of the quality food and shelter and fitness centers that modern society created for her. She has stolen from society in order to be so beautiful and fit, therefore she must give back and be violated.

6. It is democracy in action. Since a majority of people voted for it in a formal procedure, it doesn't count as a crime.

Jane stutters and starts to get very nervous. They roll up their sleeves and move toward her, but then they notice you, an outsider, who heard their discussion. You aren't allowed to vote, being a non-citizen of the house, but they ask your opinion of the issue. As Jane is backed into the corner and starting to hyperventilate.

What do you say to them?
No.

The definition of rape is the act of forcible sexual contact with a person against that person's will.

"Voting" that rape is legal doesn't change the nature of the act.

If I were to encounter an individual or a group of individuals in an act of rape, I'd act within the scope of my training and experience to stop the act.
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:44 AM   #19
EGarrett
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,064
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
A democracy that does not protect basic rights is not a very useful democracy.
Ah, this piques their interest. You might even have made a light-bulb go off over their heads. Bob needs a tiny bit more though. They can't vote on whether to rape someone? What do you mean when you say that it's a basic right?
__________________
"So if a tard came up to me and offered to sell me 10 bitcoins for $100, not only would I not do it, I think I'd punch him in the head, just for being stupid." -The Central Scrutinizer
EGarrett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:46 AM   #20
EGarrett
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,064
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Did the bolded bit come with dramatic music?
You can participate in the thread, or you can leave the thread. Those are your options. Posting non-content or derailing the thread is not one of them.
__________________
"So if a tard came up to me and offered to sell me 10 bitcoins for $100, not only would I not do it, I think I'd punch him in the head, just for being stupid." -The Central Scrutinizer
EGarrett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:48 AM   #21
BenBurch
Gatekeeper of The Left
 
BenBurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 35,272
Egarret, I'll debate you when you start being honest.
__________________
For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?
BenBurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:48 AM   #22
EGarrett
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,064
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
No.

The definition of rape is the act of forcible sexual contact with a person against that person's will.

"Voting" that rape is legal doesn't change the nature of the act.

If I were to encounter an individual or a group of individuals in an act of rape, I'd act within the scope of my training and experience to stop the act.
Another good reply.

Bob: "So even if most of us vote to do it, it's not okay? Even if 2 out of 3 us think it will make us happier, or if she owes us because of society allowing her to be so healthy? We still can't rape her?"
__________________
"So if a tard came up to me and offered to sell me 10 bitcoins for $100, not only would I not do it, I think I'd punch him in the head, just for being stupid." -The Central Scrutinizer
EGarrett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:49 AM   #23
stokes234
Master Poster
 
stokes234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,295
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
For the purposes of this thought experiment, yes. I can be in the room too, and I have plenty to say to Bob and Tom, but what do you say in reply to him? He's answered your statement about how traumatizing it would be by saying that if Jane doesn't fight it won't be bad at all, and she may even enjoy it.
I would say no, because he's wrong. And if you don't know this, you've got problems. What is your point, exactly?
__________________
"I offer the world my genius. All I ask in return is that the world cover my expenses." Hugo Rune
stokes234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:53 AM   #24
BStrong
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 6,111
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
Another good reply.

Bob: "So even if most of us vote to do it, it's not okay? Even if 2 out of 3 us think it will make us happier, or if she owes us because of society allowing her to be so healthy? We still can't rape her?"
Unless your hypothetical Jane agrees to the act, the act is illegal.

You cannot by vote legalize forcible sexual contact against an unwilling individual.
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 05:57 AM   #25
Skepticemea
Master Poster
 
Skepticemea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,764
I'm really hoping that this is a some sort of dodgy allegory. Otherwise, it's just pretty dodgy.
__________________
Learn the words!
Skepticemea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:00 AM   #26
Carnivore
Salad Dodger
 
Carnivore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 1,461
I would explain to Bob and Tom why rape is wrong, the nature of the evil they seek to perpetrate and why they must protect Janes's right to physical safety if they wish their own to be respected.

Then, when they start bleating false analogies relating to economic issues I would bitchslap them, just to larn 'em.
__________________
"It's backwards thinking like this that made me leave Manchester. You Guinness swilling, Marmite blaspheming animal." - Malfie Henpox
Carnivore is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:01 AM   #27
TheL8Elvis
Illuminator
 
TheL8Elvis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,848
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
Bob wants to know what you mean? They voted 2-to-1 to do it. He asks you, isn't law established by democracy?

I will tell you once. If you try to make personal attacks toward me, you will receive personal attacks, and you won't enjoy it.
TheL8Elvis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:02 AM   #28
RenaissanceBiker
Eats shoots and leaves.
 
RenaissanceBiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,102
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the vote."
Ben Franklin

ETA: I would say, "Jane, would you mind holding my gun for me?"
__________________
"Truth does not contradict truth." - St. Augustine
"Faith often contradicts faith. Therefore faith is not an indication of truth." - RenaissanceBiker

Last edited by RenaissanceBiker; 27th April 2012 at 06:09 AM.
RenaissanceBiker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:03 AM   #29
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,451
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
You can participate in the thread, or you can leave the thread. Those are your options. Posting non-content or derailing the thread is not one of them.
Well, apparently you only respond to non-content.

The post I made with a question in it seems to have been ignored.
__________________
Refenestrate the delusional.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:06 AM   #30
jhunter1163
Beer-swilling semiliterate
Moderator
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Room 118, Bohemian Grove Marriott
Posts: 21,348
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Did the bolded bit come with dramatic music?
And I'll tell you once, that if you guys start making personal attacks on each other, there'll be consequences that neither of you will enjoy.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:09 AM   #31
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,451
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
And I'll tell you once, that if you guys start making personal attacks on each other, there'll be consequences that neither of you will enjoy.
I'm somewhat offended at that. I haven't made a personal attack.
__________________
Refenestrate the delusional.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:10 AM   #32
mhaze
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 15,718
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
Ah, this piques their interest. You might even have made a light-bulb go off over their heads. Bob needs a tiny bit more though. They can't vote on whether to rape someone? What do you mean when you say that it's a basic right?
NOW you will find the bigoted and prejudiced small minds of the internet tubes launch attacks on you, ad hominem, ridicule being the most that can be launched at once from brains with 2 cells, but third and forth logical errors being shuffled out lamely in sequence.

But may I suggest adding a further and very interesting requirement for Jane? The majority vote to compel Jane to go buy a 24 pack of beer each time before she is raped. With her own money. For the common good and to inspire the collectivist spirit.
mhaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:11 AM   #33
jhunter1163
Beer-swilling semiliterate
Moderator
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Room 118, Bohemian Grove Marriott
Posts: 21,348
I apologize for the offense. For the record (and this applies to all thread participants):

Mod Warning Do not personalize your arguments, and remain civil and polite.
Posted By:jhunter1163
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:14 AM   #34
bjornart
Master Poster
 
bjornart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,569
Households are not democracies. Bob and Tom are bound by the laws of the country where they live.
__________________
Well, I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU LIKE TO BELIEVE, GODDAMMIT! I DEAL IN THE FACTS!
-Cecil Adams
bjornart is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:15 AM   #35
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,451
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
I apologize for the offense. For the record (and this applies to all thread participants):

Mod Warning Do not personalize your arguments, and remain civil and polite.
Posted By:jhunter1163
My apologies. I probably wasn't helping, I admit.

I shall remain quiet and wait for the otter.
__________________
Refenestrate the delusional.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:17 AM   #36
EGarrett
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,064
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Unless your hypothetical Jane agrees to the act, the act is illegal.

You cannot by vote legalize forcible sexual contact against an unwilling individual.
You're making them think. They say, okay, we understand. We can't vote to initiate forcible sexual contact even if the majority of us want to do it. They seem very close to understanding something.

Bob apologizes and says he understands. But now, Jane has a proposal. She wants both she and Tom want to beat Bob up. They vote by a 2-to-1 majority to beat Bob into unconsciousness. It's not sexual contact, it's just pounding him to a pulp. Can they do that, they ask?

They obviously are a bit confused about the principle involved. Although they're close.
__________________
"So if a tard came up to me and offered to sell me 10 bitcoins for $100, not only would I not do it, I think I'd punch him in the head, just for being stupid." -The Central Scrutinizer
EGarrett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:17 AM   #37
mhaze
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 15,718
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Unless your hypothetical Jane agrees to the act, the act is illegal.

You cannot by vote legalize forcible sexual contact against an unwilling individual.
Why, my friend, is your thinking clogged up with those out of fashion, conservative ideas? Think progressive!

It's obviously consensual sex. Now I grant you that some wingnut could allege it was unconstitutional. But (snicker snicker) he'd have to have that case snake it's way through the courts to the Supreme Court and have it heard. If they even took the case. So don't you want to get in on the fun? It could go on for years before it was decided. And then the federal Justice Dept, you know they've been playing ball pretty nicely. Even with a SC decision, Justice would have to act to enforce. And you know they've been pretty busy lately. So many things to do, so little budget <wink wink>
And didn't you notice? That Jane, she pretty h4wt.

mhaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:18 AM   #38
crimresearch
Alumbrado
 
crimresearch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,618
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
Bob wants to know what you mean? They voted 2-to-1 to do it. He asks you, isn't law established by democracy?

I will tell you once. If you try to make personal attacks toward me, you will receive personal attacks, and you won't enjoy it.
In the US, the laws are not voted in by the majority of those affected by them. Neither are the policies.

Even if you extend your shaky analogy to account for the courts, society, et al. this has nothing to do with US Politics.

And pointing out obvious logical fallacies is in no wise a 'personal attack'.
crimresearch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:19 AM   #39
Careyp74
Illuminator
 
Careyp74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,407
OK, the obvious answer to the OP is NO. No, Bob and Tom can't vote to rape Jane.

Now, what is the analogy?
Careyp74 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2012, 06:20 AM   #40
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 25,831
Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
Bob proposes a bill that raping the young, attractive Jane should be legalized. Tom, who lives with them, likes this idea. It is opened up to a vote among the three of them and it passes by a 2-to-1 majority.

Jane disputes this result.

Bob and Tom argue the following:

1. Jane can spare it. She's naked everyday and it will only take a few minutes.

2. It will be voluntary. She will be given the option to participate willfully. But if she doesn't, she will be forcefully tied up and locked in the basement. But Bob says that counts as voluntary.

3. It is for the public good. Most of the house will be happy.

4. Sex is necessary for a population to survive. As is sexual-sanity. Jane says that sex happens voluntarily, Bob says that that's not good enough. Men are lonely and frustrated every day, and it causes bad things to happen, on top of having no next generation. Surely Jane does not want their house population to die off.

5. Jane, being the youngest and most attractive, must contribute a bit more. She has her healthy looks and body because of the quality food and shelter and fitness centers that modern society created for her. She has stolen from society in order to be so beautiful and fit, therefore she must give back and be violated.

6. It is democracy in action. Since a majority of people voted for it in a formal procedure, it doesn't count as a crime.

Jane stutters and starts to get very nervous. They roll up their sleeves and move toward her, but then they notice you, an outsider, who heard their discussion. You aren't allowed to vote, being a non-citizen of the house, but they ask your opinion of the issue. As Jane is backed into the corner and starting to hyperventilate.

What do you say to them?
I say to them, "Gosh fellas, have you been listening to too much Reactionary Radio? Abject pluralism is the worst variation on Democracy known. This is why no single government enacts its legislation on the basis of plebiscites. Democracy doesn't quite work like this, and here's my friend Officer Killeen of the County Sheriff's Office (Local Constabulary to you, I guess) with his trusty Glock to explain why."

It am against the law. Thanks for playing.

And Jane presses charges and Bob and Tom spend fifteen years incarcerated.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

Don't you wish someone had slapped baby Hitler really really hard? [i] Dr. Buzzo 02/13 [i]
Foolmewunz is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:01 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.