ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Closed Thread
Old 6th May 2012, 07:51 AM   #1
GIBHOR
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,626
Why do you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence ?

Why do you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence ?
naturalism is the foundation of strong atheism, which declares, that God most probably does not exist. Please present good reasons, why you believe this world view to be the best explanation for our existence.
GIBHOR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 07:56 AM   #2
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 15,202
The Principle of Parsimony.

__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 07:58 AM   #3
Twiler
Master Poster
 
Twiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,484
Because I haven't seen any evidence of the supernatural existing.

It may that the supernatural is unknowable to me (for one reason or another), but in that case it is irrelevant, and I might as well adopt the view of naturalism anyway, because it is as close to the truth as is possible from my perspective.

If the supernatural ever does present itself to me, that's the time to change my views. Until then, here I stand.
Twiler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:01 AM   #4
Twiler
Master Poster
 
Twiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,484
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Why do you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence ?
naturalism is the foundation of strong atheism, which declares, that God most probably does not exist. Please present good reasons, why you believe this world view to be the best explanation for our existence.
Strictly speaking, atheism is about deities in general not existing; It's the opposite of theism, i.e. all deity-worship, rather than being orientated against christianity in particular.

This misconception seems to arise from atheists coming into contact with christians more than other religions, and christians being more interested in debating with atheists rather than members of other religions.
Twiler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:03 AM   #5
X
Slide Rulez 4 Life
 
X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,125
Because I am reluctant to accept an unsupported, unproven claim as an answer to things I don't know. I would rather admit I don't yet know than put a band-aid of ignorance over it.
__________________
It is sad that this is necessary:
Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly."
Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly."

[X's posts are] ...as good as having 24 hours of Justin Bieber piped into your ears! - kmortis
X is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:04 AM   #6
Doubt
Philosopher
 
Doubt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,013
I do not believe that naturalism is a great explanation for our existence.

It is just that all the other explanations are so much worse.
__________________
Doubt world tour locations:

Santiago, Chile, Aug. 18th to the Sept. 16th. Might get home before that.
Doubt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:14 AM   #7
MG1962
Penultimate Amazing
 
MG1962's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,666
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Why do you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence ?
naturalism is the foundation of strong atheism, which declares, that God most probably does not exist. Please present good reasons, why you believe this world view to be the best explanation for our existence.
You speak as if the issue has reached a final solution and no further study or consideration will be contemplated. Like all concepts in scientific philosophy everything is up for grabs, and will continue to be till man has his last thought
MG1962 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:20 AM   #8
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,586
The reason is extremely simple: Naturalism, as an explanation for phenomena, works. Science has pushed human knowledge so far beyond what the ancients thought possible that their world-view would shatter just from walking into my living room. Naturalistic explanations have allowed us to tame lightning and fire, and turn poisonous water into useful tools (the Great Black Swamp was known for having oil seeps, which poisoned the water--real nasty before we started using petroleum, but once we did it turned out to be quite useful). Naturalistic explanations gave us heart transplants, brain surgery, space exploration, and answers to some of the fundamental questions inherent in being human (Where did we come from? The African rift valleys. Why are we here? We evolved, then migrated. Not COMFORTING answers, but they are the correct ones). Naturalistic explanations also have the advantage of being universal. It doesn't matter if you like me or not, gravity attracts things. And I've convinced a number of people who were dead-set against me, by simply showing them facts.

In contrast, supernatural explanations can't even win a bet (the MDC). Prayer demonstrably doesn't work, and psi powers allegedly only work if no one doubts them.

So our options are: the single most powerful assumption humans have ever made in terms of explanatory power, or something that I can shut down simply by saying "I doubt that". It's not a hard choice.
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:36 AM   #9
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 44,969
Evidence, and the success of the scientific process in evaluating that evidence, are the reasons in a natural nutshell.
__________________
(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Pubbie Party, Repubs "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:41 AM   #10
gabeygoat
Muse
 
gabeygoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 869
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
The reason is extremely simple: Naturalism, as an explanation for phenomena, works. Science has pushed human knowledge so far beyond what the ancients thought possible that their world-view would shatter just from walking into my living room. Naturalistic explanations have allowed us to tame lightning and fire, and turn poisonous water into useful tools (the Great Black Swamp was known for having oil seeps, which poisoned the water--real nasty before we started using petroleum, but once we did it turned out to be quite useful). Naturalistic explanations gave us heart transplants, brain surgery, space exploration, and answers to some of the fundamental questions inherent in being human (Where did we come from? The African rift valleys. Why are we here? We evolved, then migrated. Not COMFORTING answers, but they are the correct ones). Naturalistic explanations also have the advantage of being universal. It doesn't matter if you like me or not, gravity attracts things. And I've convinced a number of people who were dead-set against me, by simply showing them facts.

In contrast, supernatural explanations can't even win a bet (the MDC). Prayer demonstrably doesn't work, and psi powers allegedly only work if no one doubts them.

So our options are: the single most powerful assumption humans have ever made in terms of explanatory power, or something that I can shut down simply by saying "I doubt that". It's not a hard choice.


well said, that pretty much sums it up for me.
gabeygoat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:41 AM   #11
I Ratant
Penultimate Amazing
 
I Ratant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,197
"The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it's stranger than we can imagine"...J.B.S. Haldane.
That none of the 10s of 1000s of gods proposed so far have been found to exist doesn't eliminate the possibility there "might be something out there" that hasn't been discovered.... but probably will be.
That "something" however is extremely unlikely to be what the god-shouters are looking for.
I Ratant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:45 AM   #12
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5,706
Evidence.
__________________
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... timey wimey... stuff.
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:46 AM   #13
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 3,374
I just love how this is even a question because it's basically just asking "Why do you think not making stuff up without evidence is a better way at looking at the universe then making stuff up without evidence?"

It's simple. Because all the navel gazing pretentious alternatives don't actually provide accurate data about how the world works.
__________________
- Opinions require evidence and no before you ask defining something as "Something doesn't require evidence" doesn't count.
- In extreme cases continuing to be wrong when you've been repeatedly proven to be wrong is a form of rudeness.
- Major in philosophy. That way you can also ask people "why" they would like fries with that.
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:47 AM   #14
Monketey Ghost
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 21,257
I have no reason to think otherwise. My understanding of the scientific explanation and the Divine explanation makes it seem much more likely that natural processes are responsible.

After all, I know natural processes happen; by contrast, Divine processes have yet to make themselves obvious to me.
Monketey Ghost is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:48 AM   #15
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 12,434
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Why do you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence ?
naturalism is the foundation of strong atheism, which declares, that God most probably does not exist. Please present good reasons, why you believe this world view to be the best explanation for our existence.
It seems to have strong explanatory power in other areas and I can't figure out why the question "How did we get here?" should be in a special category. This is probably because I accept that I am a part of the natural world as much as a river is. The same kind of explanations should work for everything -- if they don't, only then do we need to invent new ones. But they seem to work pretty well.
marplots is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:49 AM   #16
mijopaalmc
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,433
Angry

Originally Posted by Twiler View Post
Strictly speaking, atheism is about deities in general not existing; It's the opposite of theism, i.e. all deity-worship, rather than being orientated against christianity in particular.

This misconception seems to arise from atheists coming into contact with christians more than other religions, and christians being more interested in debating with atheists rather than members of other religions.
What atheism is is itself a subject of some debate. Etymologically, it refers to some sort of lack with respect to god(s). Whether atheism is a lack of god(s), a lack of a belief in god(s), a lack of a belief of the existence of god(s) is a topic of constant discussion on this forum.
mijopaalmc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 08:55 AM   #17
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,586
Originally Posted by mijopaalmc
What atheism is is itself a subject of some debate. Etymologically, it refers to some sort of lack with respect to god(s). Whether atheism is a lack of god(s), a lack of a belief in god(s), a lack of a belief of the existence of god(s) is a topic of constant discussion on this forum.
And this is completely irrelevant to the quote you quoted. That quote was saying--and you must admit it is true--that an atheist doesn't believe in any gods. Someone who doesn't believe in the Christian god may or may not be an atheist.

Originally Posted by JoeBentley
It's simple. Because all the navel gazing pretentious alternatives don't actually provide accurate data about how the world works.
Well said.
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:02 AM   #18
mijopaalmc
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,433
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
And this is completely irrelevant to the quote you quoted. That quote was saying--and you must admit it is true--that an atheist doesn't believe in any gods. Someone who doesn't believe in the Christian god may or may not be an atheist.
Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the meaning of "irrelevant" and then respond, in a less haughty tone, to what I actually said.
mijopaalmc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:08 AM   #19
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,586
[QUOT=mijopaalmc]What atheism is is itself a subject of some debate.[/quote]This was said in response to this:

Originally Posted by Twiler
Strictly speaking, atheism is about deities in general not existing; It's the opposite of theism, i.e. all deity-worship, rather than being orientated against christianity in particular.
If you looked at what Twiler was saying--basically, that atheism means that we don't believe in any gods--and what Twiler was responding to--someone suggesting that we simply reject the CHRISTIAN god--you'd realize that your various definitions of atheism simply don't matter, because no matter which one you pick the atheist applies it to ALL gods, not just the Christian one. Because Twiler's statement is equally applicable to all the definitions you gave, we can ignore them.

You're arguing for a broad definition of "atheist". Twiler, on the other hand, is saying "Atheist doesn't simply mean that I reject Jesus".

Your response was akin to me asking a mechanic what's wrong with my car, and my mechanic giving me the history of the automobile. There's a tenuous connection, and the information isn't necessarily wrong--it's just irrelevant to this particular situation, since it doesn't deal with the issue at hand.

ETA: TL;DR version=context matters.
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

Last edited by Dinwar; 6th May 2012 at 09:09 AM. Reason: To add a thought
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:11 AM   #20
Donn
Illuminator
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 3,960
Why naturalism? Lego. I never had astral blocks to build on.
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:15 AM   #21
GIBHOR
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,626
Originally Posted by Twiler View Post

It may that the supernatural is unknowable to me (for one reason or another), but in that case it is irrelevant, and I might as well adopt the view of naturalism anyway, because it is as close to the truth as is possible from my perspective.
.
So your world view is based on a negative ? any positive evidence on hand for naturalism ?
GIBHOR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:16 AM   #22
GIBHOR
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,626
Originally Posted by Twiler View Post
Strictly speaking, atheism is about deities in general not existing; It's the opposite of theism, i.e. all deity-worship, rather than being orientated against christianity in particular.

This misconception seems to arise from atheists coming into contact with christians more than other religions, and christians being more interested in debating with atheists rather than members of other religions.
what do you think , why did i write STRONG ATHEISM ??
GIBHOR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:16 AM   #23
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,586
Originally Posted by GIBHOR
any positive evidence on hand for naturalism ?
Our entire technological society is based on the assumption of naturalism. I'd say that's pretty strong evidence.
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:18 AM   #24
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 3,374
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
any positive evidence on hand for naturalism ?
It works. It provides data that allows accurate predictions about how the world works, allows us to expand out knowledge of the world, and is useful for something other then just mental masturbation and excusing away Woo.
__________________
- Opinions require evidence and no before you ask defining something as "Something doesn't require evidence" doesn't count.
- In extreme cases continuing to be wrong when you've been repeatedly proven to be wrong is a form of rudeness.
- Major in philosophy. That way you can also ask people "why" they would like fries with that.
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:19 AM   #25
GIBHOR
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,626
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I just love how this is even a question because it's basically just asking "Why do you think not making stuff up without evidence is a better way at looking at the universe then making stuff up without evidence?"

It's simple. Because all the navel gazing pretentious alternatives don't actually provide accurate data about how the world works.
So what data do you have on hand that supports naturalism ?
GIBHOR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:20 AM   #26
GIBHOR
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,626
Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post

After all, I know natural processes happen; .
the question is, what caused them into existence ?
GIBHOR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:22 AM   #27
X
Slide Rulez 4 Life
 
X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,125
What data do you have that supports supernaturalism?

Arguably, all the knowledge we have about how things work comes from a naturalistic assumption. Naturalism works.

All the explanations put forward by supernaturalism have been shown to be wrong, and short-sighted. They stop the quest for knowledge, saying "this is MY answer, and you'd better believe it". They stimy further inquiry, and beget only ignorance.
__________________
It is sad that this is necessary:
Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly."
Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly."

[X's posts are] ...as good as having 24 hours of Justin Bieber piped into your ears! - kmortis
X is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:22 AM   #28
GIBHOR
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,626
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It seems to have strong explanatory power in other areas and I can't figure out why the question "How did we get here?" should be in a special category. This is probably because I accept that I am a part of the natural world as much as a river is. The same kind of explanations should work for everything -- if they don't, only then do we need to invent new ones. But they seem to work pretty well.
so please explain then, how did we get here ? may you start with cosmology, evolution of chemistry, and last not leas, bio chemistry ?
GIBHOR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:24 AM   #29
GIBHOR
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,626
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
It works. It provides data that allows accurate predictions about how the world works, allows us to expand out knowledge of the world, and is useful for something other then just mental masturbation and excusing away Woo.
naturalism is more : it makes the assertion nothing else beyong our natural world exists. How can it be supported ?
GIBHOR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:27 AM   #30
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 3,374
*Sighs* And the begging the Woo begins.

GIBHOR before we get into this is every question we answer just going to be dropped down a metaphysical level and/or restated in a more convoluted way and lobbed back at us?

Do you honestly have intentions of accepting any possible answer we could give you or are you just waiting for us to answer so you can just go "But what caused that / evidence do you have for that" ad nauseum?
__________________
- Opinions require evidence and no before you ask defining something as "Something doesn't require evidence" doesn't count.
- In extreme cases continuing to be wrong when you've been repeatedly proven to be wrong is a form of rudeness.
- Major in philosophy. That way you can also ask people "why" they would like fries with that.
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:29 AM   #31
Monketey Ghost
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 21,257
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
the question is, what caused them into existence ?
Naturally, they happened naturally. It's natural that lots of folks prefer an unnatural explanation. It's easier to understand God waving a magic wand and saying presto! than to crack science book after science book.
Monketey Ghost is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:31 AM   #32
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,586
Originally Posted by GIBHOR
naturalism is more : it makes the assertion nothing else beyong our natural world exists. How can it be supported ?
It works. It's supported by the fact that making this assumption leads to new knowledge and actual information. This is what's known in science as empirical evidence.

But let's turn this around: The alternative assumption is supernaturalism (either supernatural entities are acting on our world, or they're not). What evidence is there of THAT assumption? Naturalism has empirical evidence to support it. What does supernaturalism have?

Quote:
so please explain then, how did we get here ? may you start with cosmology, evolution of chemistry, and last not leas, bio chemistry ?
Depends on what you mean by "we". If you mean Homo sapien sapien the answer is that we evolved from apes in the African rift valley, and migrated out of there into the wider world. If you mean hominids, the answer is the same. If you mean animals, we evolved from a protist family that had a bacteria symbiote (the mitochondria). If you mean vertebrates, I would suggest you get a textbook on vertebrate evolution; it's far too long to synopsis here.

If you mean abiogenesis, the jury's still out--but only because we have too many viable theories. I'm not an expert, though, so I won't attempt to summarize the research.

This is starting to sound more and more like a "Defend yourselves!" thread, and less and less like a friendly discussion.
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:34 AM   #33
Twiler
Master Poster
 
Twiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,484
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Our entire technological society is based on the assumption of naturalism. I'd say that's pretty strong evidence.
Yeah, that's what I was going to say.
Twiler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:35 AM   #34
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 15,202
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
so please explain then, how did we get here ? may you start with cosmology, evolution of chemistry, and last not leas, bio chemistry ?
So what do you say if I say, "I don't know"?

But I will apply The Principle of Parsimony. You do know what that is don't you?

Do you have an explanation?

If you are truly interested in having your question answered, I suggest that you either get an formal education or inform yourself.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:43 AM   #35
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 67,662
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
So what data do you have on hand that supports naturalism ?
Look at the screen that is displaying this text, that came into being by those folk who assumed naturalism.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:52 AM   #36
GIBHOR
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,626
Originally Posted by X View Post
What data do you have that supports supernaturalism?
.
thats not the quest of this topic.
GIBHOR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:54 AM   #37
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 3,374
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Look at the screen that is displaying this text, that came into being by those folk who assumed naturalism.
Along with every thing ever. Nothing is ever going to advance if we accept the mentality of all the pretentious Navel Gazers that watched the Matrix while stoned too many times and think going "But how do we know reality is real?" makes them the wise old man on the mountain.

Either reality is real or we're all having an unreasonably persistent shared delusion. I think the former is more reasonable conclusion and certainly the more useful one.

In the last 500,000 years we've advanced from Og rubbing two sticks together to make fire to today. I don't understand why the Navel Gazers think we'd be better off if after 500,000 years we were still sitting around that fire trying to prove it's real or not.

Actually I know exactly why, because it lets them think Woo.
__________________
- Opinions require evidence and no before you ask defining something as "Something doesn't require evidence" doesn't count.
- In extreme cases continuing to be wrong when you've been repeatedly proven to be wrong is a form of rudeness.
- Major in philosophy. That way you can also ask people "why" they would like fries with that.
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:56 AM   #38
Twiler
Master Poster
 
Twiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,484
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
thats not the quest of this topic.
But your question has already been answered. It's time to move on, and look for knowledge in new directions.
Twiler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 09:58 AM   #39
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,426
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Why do you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence ?
naturalism is the foundation of strong atheism, which declares, that God most probably does not exist. Please present good reasons, why you believe this world view to be the best explanation for our existence.
Nice way to reverse the burden of proof.
tsig is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 6th May 2012, 10:01 AM   #40
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,426
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I just love how this is even a question because it's basically just asking "Why do you think not making stuff up without evidence is a better way at looking at the universe then making stuff up without evidence?"

It's simple. Because all the navel gazing pretentious alternatives don't actually provide accurate data about how the world works.

^^^
This

Arguing with the OP is a mugs game.
tsig is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:22 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.