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Old 9th May 2012, 12:39 AM   #321
realpaladin
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
because from absolutely nothing, nothing arises. please prove me wrong.
By just saying that you have proven yourself wrong.

You need to absolutely provide proof that in Nature nothing ever could arise from nothing.
Unless you claim to completely, without any gap in knowledge, claim to be able to explain how Nature works.

As long as you can not refute this, anything else you may mention is moot.
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Old 9th May 2012, 12:43 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
There is a common knowledge to all humans, which do not have to learn, that kill, steal, cheat, betray, torture etc. of others is a bad thing to do. Where does this knowledge come from ?
Evidence of this assertion, especially the 'we don't need to learn it' part? I think I could pick anyone off the street and find a situation where they'd say all of the above is acceptable. Where that line is drawn is different for everyone.

And of course, even if was true it could just as much be a result of biology and evolution as anything else.

No supernatural explanation required.

Last edited by Last of the Fraggles; 9th May 2012 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:12 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
I can believe in an uncaused universe.
My belief has the added advantage of being simpler and still fitting with all observations.
Please present the evidence that our universe is uncaused.
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:14 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
But you don't understand God is special, because he says so.

You see because he doesn't understand where reality came from, he makes up a magical super being that somehow comes from nowhere to create the thing he doesn't understood how it came to be.

And this makes perfect sense.
Ive said already at this topic, i believe God is UNCAUSED, ETERNAL, WITHOUT BEGINNING, AND WITHOUT A END. Something must have existed forever. For a simple reason. From absolutely nothing, nothing derives.
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:14 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Please present the evidence that our universe is uncaused.
You've been asked to present evidence for your uncaused being. When will you be doing that?
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:16 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Ive said already at this topic, i believe God is UNCAUSED, ETERNAL, WITHOUT BEGINNING, AND WITHOUT A END. Something must have existed forever. For a simple reason. From absolutely nothing, nothing derives.
Yes, you've asserted it. When will you be presenting evidence for it? You've already been proven wrong on your last statement, even though you've ignored it. When will you be addressing that?
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:16 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
Anyways, the odds are irrelevant as they do not prove impossibility. .
its said that odds above one to 10^50 will never happen.....would you bet us$ 100,00 on a lottery with that kind of chance to win ?
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:19 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
its said that odds above one to 10^50 will never happen.....would you bet us$ 100,00 on a lottery with that kind of chance to win ?
In which college text on statistics is this said?
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:19 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
You have a couple of problems with this argument:
1.) if we take your premise at face value, than regardless of mechanism, god can't explain the origin of the universe. Afterall, you state that from nothing nothing arises.
In the beginning, there was not absolutely nothing. There was God.

Quote:
Well, the universe came from nothing.
but not from absolutely nothing.


Quote:
2.) we have evidence of things coming from nothing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle
they come NOT from abstolutely nothing. There is still a powerful vacuum, and a special environment, so that these can appear and disappear.

Quote:
3.) As time started WITH the universe at the big bang, saying it "came" from nothing is a meaningless comment.
agree.
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:21 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Ive said already at this topic, i believe God is UNCAUSED, ETERNAL, WITHOUT BEGINNING, AND WITHOUT A END. Something must have existed forever. For a simple reason. From absolutely nothing, nothing derives.
As has been pointed out to you several times arleady, that last statement is wrong.
It has been experimentally found that you can get something from nothing.
Hence the very assumption on which you base your god is not correct.

Furthermore, even if something has existed forever, why would it be intelligent?

Lastly, naturalistic explanations have given us the technological and medical base without which current society would literally not exist. While the scientific methods might not have given us every answer yet, there is no reason to assume that any answer is totally beyond reach. Maybe WE won't get to know them, but our descendants might. What answers has religion given us? What predictive value has god?
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:21 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
This is idiocyfor obvious reasons, if you wish to educate your self as to why :

_Explain why the constants in the universe would have the variation Smolin postulates.

Then read
http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/v...o/FineTune.pdf
IS THE UNIVERSE FINE-TUNED FOR US?
i know Stengers article. He sticks to a multiverse. Could you point out if you believe in a multiverse, and if so, why do you believe that to be a compelling scnenario ? beside this, how does a multiverse cancel God out, and a absolute beginning ?
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:25 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post

You state your god has no beginning, so no infinite regression is necessary. Okay, my universe has no beginning and/or no cause, so no infinite regression is necessary. See- it's easy!
So how do you deal with the second law of thermodynamics ? If the universe had no beginning, why are we not in a state of heath death ?


Quote:
Your argument is that "believing" in what we can actually see, smell, hear, and understand through our scientific instruments, and that always repeats when we repeat the experiment, is not the best explanation of our universe,
the question is what caused it into existence, if its not eternal.



Quote:
but that an invisible, intelligent entity that behaves indistinguishably from chance is.
why do you believe God behaves undistinguishably from chance ? i see a lot of design from a super intelligence much above ours.......
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:28 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
In the beginning, there was not absolutely nothing. There was God.
In the beginning there was The Flying Spaghetti Monster. It created the universe and was destroyed in the making.

Ok, we have competing unevidenced assertions.
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:29 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Social conditioning
If ist social conditioning, then its learned. But the sense of morals is independent of in which society somemone lives.

Quote:
, certainly the bible says it is okay to rape and kill the enemy , enslave them, persecute them, destroy their cities and rape their daughters. So no morals there.

In fact the god of the old testament is rather a psychotic maniac with bloodlust.
The only thing you prove here, is that you repeat others hear say, without actually studing the bible.
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:31 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Funny how you did not present an argument, just a bunch of unsubstantiated opinions.
fist of all, to argue the universe is not finely tuned is ridiculous. That is a scientific , undisputed fact.

Secondly, the quotes are from reknown scientists, they do not just reflect unsubstantiated opinions, but opinions based on FACTS.

You should do your homework, before argue, the universe is not finely tuned to life.
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:36 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
The Earth is not fine tuned to us. Puddles of water fit the depression in the road, not the opposite.
oh sure........

http://www.reasons.org/design/solar-...earth-apr-2004

Quote:
SIZE AND GRAVITY: There is a range for the size of a planet and it gravity which supports life and it is small. A planet the size of Jupiter would have gravity that would crush any life form, and any high order carbon molecules, out of existence.
WATER: Without a sufficient amount of water, life could not exist.
ATMOSPHERE: Not only must a planet have an atmosphere, it must have a certain percentage of certain gasses to permit life. On earth the air we breath is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and 1% argon and carbon dioxide. Without the 78% nitrogen to “blanket’ the combustion of oxygen, our world would ‘burn up’ from oxidation. Nitrogen inhibits combustion and permits life to flourish. No other planet comes close to this makeup of atmosphere.
OXYGEN: The range of oxygen level in the atmosphere that permits life can be fairly broad, but oxygen is definitely necessary for life.
RARE EARTHS MINERALS: Many chemical processes necessary for life are dependent on elements we call ‘rare earth’ minerals. These only exist as ‘trace’ amounts, but without which life could not continue.
THE SUN: Our sun is an average star in both composition and size. The larger a star is the faster it burns out. It would take longer for life to develop than those larger stars would exist. Smaller stars last longer but do not develop properly to give off the heat and radiation necessary to sustain life on any planets that form. The smaller the star the less likely it will form a planetary system at all.
DISTANCE FROM THE SUN: To have a planet with a surface temperature within the bounds for life, it must be within the ‘biosphere’ of a star, a temperate zone of a given distance from the source of radiation and heat. That would depend on the size of the star. For an average star the size of our sun, that distance would be about 60 to 150 million miles.
RADIOACTIVITY: Without radioactivity, the earth would have cooled to a cold rock 3 billion years ago. Radioactivity is responsible for the volcanism, and heat generated in the interior of the earth. Volcanism is responsible for many of the rare elements we need as well as the oxygen in the air. Most rocky planets have some radioactivity.
DISTANCE AND PLACEMENT FROM THE GALACTIC CENTER: We receive very little of the x-rays and gamma rays given off from the galactic center, that would affect all life and its development on earth. We live on the outer rim of the Milky Way, in a less dense portion of the galaxy, away from the noise, dust, and dangers of the interior.
THE OZONE LAYER: Animal life on land survives because of the ozone layer which shields the ultraviolet rays from reaching the earth’s surface. The ozone layer would never have formed without oxygen reaching a given level of density in the atmosphere. A planet with less oxygen would not have an ozone layer.
VOLCANIC ACTIVITY: Volcanic activity is responsible for bringing heaver elements and gasses to the surface, as well as oxygen. Without this activity, the planet would never have sustained life in the first place.
EARTH’S MAGNETIC FIELD: We are bombarded daily with deadly rays from the sun, but are protected by the earth’s magnetic field.
SEASONS: Because of the earths tilt, we have seasons, and no part of the earth is extremely hot or cold. The seasons have balancing effect of the temperature on the surface and cause the winds and sea currents which we and all life depend on for a temperate climate.
THE MOON: We have the tides that are very important for some species, but the very early collision of a smaller Mars sized planet and the earth is what caused the moon. It also tilted the earth on its axis and caused seasons. The earth and moon should more accurately be called a ‘two-planet’ system, as the size of earth’s moon is greatly larger in proportion to the earth, than any other planet. The moon early in its existence also shielded the earth from bombardment by meteor showers that were devastating. The craters on the moon are the evidence of that factor. No other planet has undergone such a unique event in its history.
Quote:
2. Similarly, the code in our DNA was not generated at random: it was generated by random mutation followed by natural selection.
can you imagine a book or a computer code could arise this way ?
what amazing faith you have in chance......

http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...e-really-a-god

Quote:
Life is built upon information. In fact, in just one of the trillions of cells that make up the human body, the amount of information in its genes would fill at least 1,000 books of 500 pages of typewritten information. Scientists now think this is hugely underestimated.
http://www.unmaskingevolution.com/20-typing.htm

Quote:
It has been calculated that it would be statistically impossible to randomly type even the first 100 characters in Shakespeare's "Hamlet". If the monkeys typed only in lower case, including the 27 spaces in the first 100 characters, the chances are 27100 (ie. one chance in 10143).
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:39 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
So that IS possible for something as infinitely complex as a moral reasoning intelligent ultra powerful being, but impossible for a dense amount of energy without any extra super powers?.
your dense amount of energy, if eternal, would have reached today heath death. we would not exist anymore......
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:40 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
No. You are wrong.


John Barrow and Frank Tipler comment, ". . .

Quote:
the modern picture of the quantum vacuum differs radically from the classical and everyday meaning of a vacuum-- nothing. . . . The quantum vacuum (or vacuua, as there can exist many) states . . . are defined simply as local, or global, energy minima (V'(O)= O, V"(O)>O)" ([1986], p. 440). The microstructure of the quantum vacuum is a sea of continually forming and dissolving particles which borrow energy from the vacuum for their brief existence. A quantum vacuum is thus far from nothing, and vacuum fluctuations do not constitute an exception to the principle that whatever begins to exist has a cause.
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:42 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I bet he's fun at parties.
absolutely. I believe in heaven, there will be the best parties EVER. Hope see you there......
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Old 9th May 2012, 03:44 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Please present the evidence that our universe is uncaused.
Please present evidence that your "god" is uncaused.
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Old 9th May 2012, 04:12 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Originally Posted by joobz
I can believe in an uncaused universe.
Please present the evidence that our universe is uncaused.
Your question makes no sense to my full post.
So, lets try again. This time, don't quote mine.
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
If you can randomly decide to believe in an uncaused god, I can believe in an uncaused universe.
My belief has the added advantage of being simpler and still fitting with all observations.
Now, please present evidence of a god created universe.
AND
Please present evidence of an uncaused god.
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Old 9th May 2012, 04:19 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
In the beginning, there was not absolutely nothing. There was God.
So you believe that god is absolutely nothing.


Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
but not from absolutely nothing.
So there are different levels of nothing now?
seems like there's track marks from this goal post shift.



Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
they come NOT from abstolutely nothing. There is still a powerful vacuum, and a special environment, so that these can appear and disappear.
Well, then, you now admit that things DO come from nothing.
So your entire premise if false and argument defeated.

Excellent. So we are back to the beginning.
Why do you think a supernatural argument is any better than a natural one?
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
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Old 9th May 2012, 04:25 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
So how do you deal with the second law of thermodynamics ?
by using calculus.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
If the universe had no beginning, why are we not in a state of heath death ?
because we stocked up on mars bars.



Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
the question is what caused it into existence, if its not eternal.
Well, as you already agreed that time started with the big bang as well, your comment is illogical. How can you "exist" without a time and space to exist in?




Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
why do you believe God behaves undistinguishably from chance ? i see a lot of design from a super intelligence much above ours.......
so says the puddle.
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
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Old 9th May 2012, 04:30 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
You have a couple of problems with this argument:
1.) if we take your premise at face value, than regardless of mechanism, god can't explain the origin of the universe. Afterall, you state that from nothing nothing arises.
In the beginning, there was not absolutely nothing. There was God.

Quote:
Well, the universe came from nothing.
but not from absolutely nothing.
Part of the problem is that you cannot successfully argue that where the universe came from has to be a God and cannot be another, a not-divine, entity. (The universe here of course has to be undestood as "our time-space continuum; that what 'started' with the Big Bang". It must not be conflated with the Universe as defined as everything that exists or with -- something more for a theist -- the totality of creation.)

- For one, you cannot differentiate between the very vaguely defined concept of a God, and the also very vague concept of any entity that is not-universe and not-God. Bait and switch tactics won't cut it; tossing in free will (as Craig does) is to commit suicide.

- Another problem would be evidence. Merely showing off a few logically 'possible' ... errr ... possibilities is one thing. Producing evidence (in whichever form) is another thing entirely.


Put differently, how can an entity sufficiently described as God produce universes from nothing? You have no case.

Plus, you really have to watch out that you do not unwittingly cannibalize your own arguments, e.g. that all of a sudden it is apparantly possible for stuff to come from nothing. I mean, creation ex nihilo, huh??
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Old 9th May 2012, 04:42 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
because from absolutely nothing, nothing arises. please prove me wrong.
It is not up to us to prove you wrong. You made the assertion so it is up to you to prove it correct.

Please demonstrate that from absolutely nothing, nothing arises. If you can.
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Old 9th May 2012, 04:45 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
its said that odds above one to 10^50 will never happen.....would you bet us$ 100,00 on a lottery with that kind of chance to win ?
If I shuffle a deck of cards, the odds of it ending up in exactly the order it is are 1 in 8x10^67.

Is shuffling cards impossible?
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Old 9th May 2012, 04:46 AM   #347
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GIBHOR did you know that matter and anti-matter are created constantly, even in a vacuum, and then immediately destroyed?

Energy in the space is transformed into matter and anti-matter, which immediately collide and become energy once again. They've tested it. Multiple times. They've recorded it's effects.
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Old 9th May 2012, 04:50 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
No. He is simply trolling. He's hitting every "how to annoy a skeptic" argument.

What I find amusing is that instead of providing positive support for his position, he must attempt to tear down another. That's not the most convincing belief position to hold.
It seems more like witnessing to me, go forth to the wild savages to convert them.
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Old 9th May 2012, 04:51 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
"Chance" and "physical necessity" are NOT compelling answers to me.

I prefer "predictive aspects" and "productive considerations" to be much more compelling.

"Chance" implies it can't be predicted. Naturalism strives to do better than that, whenever possible. It might not always be possible, but we get better at this, all the time.

"Physical necessity" means nothing. That would be arguing: "It is that way because it is that way".
We can do much better. How about: "We might not know why this physical process is 'necessary', but by studying it, we can put it to good use." Naturalism leads into that sort of innovation-driven in thinking.



It doesn't matter where it came from. It matters more where it is going.

Some people just choose explanations for existence that are helpful for getting interesting or important things done. That's all.

Can you give us some examples of how non-naturalistic thinking can be productive in any important way? Can it help us gain new empirical knowledge? Can we develop better ways to fight or manage diseases? Can we predict or manage natural disasters in any better manner? Can it help us fly to Mars (whether or not you think that's important)? Anything?
This
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Old 9th May 2012, 04:57 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
its said that odds above one to 10^50 will never happen.....would you bet us$ 100,00 on a lottery with that kind of chance to win ?
But that is assuming a huge range of freedom in the natural constants:

_this is the error that both Smolin and Penrose make

Without empirical data you can not just give a freedom of say 10,000x to a factor, or 1,000 or 100.

It is just as like that physical constants are constrained (read the first part of The Inflationary Universe by Guth) as that they have huge degrees of freedom.

So his 10^50 could really be 10^5, now couldn't it?

And given the possibility of an almost infinite number of inflationary space times, those are pretty good speculative odds.
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Old 9th May 2012, 05:21 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
well, i have a very defined way to understand who God is:

God is the supreme being of the universe. God is a unbodied mind, He is righteous and just, love, good, free from sin, he is perfect in his character and person, he is righteous in all His attitudes and actions, he is eternal, without a beginning, and without a end, he is omniscient, omnipresent, limitless in authority, immutable, he is the truth. Moreover, God is self-existent, nonspatial, nonmaterial,unimaginablypowerful, and personal.

anyone got a kitchen sink they'd like to throw in?

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Old 9th May 2012, 05:32 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
its said that odds above one to 10^50 will never happen.....would you bet us$ 100,00 on a lottery with that kind of chance to win ?
The argument from big numbers.
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Old 9th May 2012, 06:04 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Ive said already at this topic, i believe God is UNCAUSED, ETERNAL, WITHOUT BEGINNING, AND WITHOUT A END. Something must have existed forever. For a simple reason. From absolutely nothing, nothing derives.
No, GIBHOR.
You're indulging in special pleading here.
But you knew that, right?

"If ist social conditioning, then its learned. But the sense of morals is independent of in which society somemone lives. "

I'm interested in knowing where you got that idea.
Could you source it, please?
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Old 9th May 2012, 06:34 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Ive said already at this topic, i believe God is UNCAUSED, ETERNAL, WITHOUT BEGINNING, AND WITHOUT A END. Something must have existed forever. For a simple reason. From absolutely nothing, nothing derives.
What is forever? You seem to have an all too common misconception regarding the nature of time as currently understood. We have no indication that time goes back forever. As far as we can tell, time and space, for this universe at least, only go back as far as the Big Bang. There is no evidence for such a thing as 'before' the Big Bang.

Imagine a sphere as an analogy for our universe. We'll have to reduce the number of dimensions so as to fit it into our experience. Let's reduce the spatial dimensions to two and imagine that time is the third dimension, perpendicular to the spatial dimensions. Space and time are really the same thing, but for reasons we do not yet understand we perceive them differently. If Mr. Square inhabits our imaginary universe, he will only perceive the two spatial dimensions in a plane perpendicular to the time dimension, but he will, in fact, be moving through time as well. Although he thinks of himself and his universe as two dimensional, he actually exists in three dimensions. If we were to curve the space/time of our model in other dimensions, it could become unbounded yet finite, like the 2D surface of a 3D sphere.

So let's take a step back and look at our little 3D universe model. There is no space/time outside of it. It exists as finite and unbounded. Even though Mr. Square can perceive of time and has memories that enable him to form a concept of the past, it doesn't mean that he can go backward in time infinitely. He can only go as far as his Big Bang event where matter and energy are concentrated in the spatial dimensions, in a little circular plane near one 'pole' of his universe. Just because he experiences movement through time, it doesn't follow that he can move through it infinitely, and it doesn't follow that his universe crossed some transition from nonexistence to existence. It simply is. This highly simplified illustrational model is one possible explanation for the nature of our universe. The notion that it had to have a moment of creation is far from being established as fact.

Another possibility is that our universe was generated by natural forces, and while it seems to have arisen from 'nothing', it actually arose from matter and energy in another universe. One very interesting observation is that when you run the equations for a black hole backward, it looks a lot like equations for the Big Bang. Our universe may exist within the event horizon of a black hole in another universe. This idea of a 'multiverse' is remarkable, but given the history of understanding of our own universe, it really shouldn't shock us to have our status demoted even further.

In short, there are an number of possible naturalistic explanations for the existence of our universe. Your arguments from personal incredulity fall flat. The universe has a way of confounding our intuitions about how it should behave. Stars are born and die, continents drift, space can be bent and time can pass at different rates for observers in two different frames of reference, and virtual particles can be generated and destroyed from seemingly nothing. In fact, at the quantum level, things get really weird. Saying, "I can't believe it" says more about your ignorance of science and lack of imagination than it does about the nature of the universe.
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Old 9th May 2012, 06:36 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
In the beginning, there was not absolutely nothing. There was God.
Or maybe the quantum field.
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Old 9th May 2012, 06:40 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Or maybe the quantum field.
And before someone goes the "What the %$#@! Do We Know?" path, that does not mean that the quantum field is God.
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Old 9th May 2012, 06:48 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
So how do you deal with the second law of thermodynamics ? If the universe had no beginning, why are we not in a state of heath death ?

the question is what caused it into existence, if its not eternal.
You really need to get past this false dichotomy in stating that the universe either had a discrete beginning separating states of nonexistence from existence, or that it must be temporally eternal, with time going back infinitely into the past. I realize that it's a counterintuitive concept, but if you really think about it, you can understand, fundamentally, how the universe might exist in a completely self contained state, both finite and unbounded.


Quote:
why do you believe God behaves undistinguishably from chance ? i see a lot of design from a super intelligence much above ours.......
Such as? Perhaps you could start another thread discussing what you regard to be such evidence.
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Old 9th May 2012, 06:51 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
And before someone goes the "What the %$#@! Do We Know?" path, that does not mean that the quantum field is God.
But if atmospheric static electrical potential and Kepler's laws of planetary motion are not God, then what is? God is always going to live in the shadows just beyond our candlelight.
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Old 9th May 2012, 07:07 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
I did not say DNA IS a code. I said it CONTAINS codified information, similar to a computer code, or a book. How could it have a " natural " aka non intelligent origin ?
Crystals contain 'codified' information, too. Naturally occurring polymers (which is essentially what RNA and DNA are) contain 'codified' information as well. Who programs a snowflake, or the crystalline patterns in clay deposits?
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Old 9th May 2012, 07:17 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
I did not say DNA IS a code. I said it CONTAINS codified information, similar to a computer code, or a book. How could it have a " natural " aka non intelligent origin ?
Why should it not? We know of numerous codes that have a non-intelligent origin. (e.g. tree rings).

There is no law saying that a code information must have an intelligent origin. (I know Creationists like to claim just that, but they are provably wrong).

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