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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:40 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Seems like women care-- perhaps present company excluded-- as I suspect George would get way more hits than EG. That seems to be my problem.
Bitter, table of one.

Here's the fun part - you don't even mean "women." Because you're not including women who are gay, asexual, or attracted to something other than the George Clooney type. I'm gonna go way, way out on a limb and narrow that down to women = women that are attractive. Before you argue that point, ask yourself "Am I really including non-sexually viable women?"
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:41 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
You can't; but why is it okay to tell women with concerns about such behavior to "just don't attend", while telling men with concerns about how they're supposed to know who and who not to hit up for sex to "just don't hit up strangers" is some kind of unreasonable demand?
False dilemma. Ladies should make the decision to attend on any number of factors. But, pretending that TAM is more dangerous than similarly-themed events seems suspicious, imo.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:42 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Agreed. What if you touched her elbow while asking for her number? Does that cross the line?
depends. Is touching her elbow my first interaction that shows any form of physical interest? If so, I think it does cross the line. It certainly invades someone's personal space a fair bit. If it comes after a ten minute conversation where we're getting on famously, then that's a different thing.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:42 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
To me, all the "if it were George Clooney" nonsense smacks of inadequacy-projection. It's basically a rationalization - the woman who rejected your advance really does "want it", just not from you. Conveniently this allows you to believe that there's nothing wrong with what you did; it's just the broad was a stuck-up bitch.
Thank you, just formulated some odd thinking that was actually going on in my mind in some situations. Excuse me while I now look for the best way to hit my head with my desk a few dozen times...
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:44 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
You're quoting your own paper to back your own opinion? That's a bit convenient don't you think?
I quoted it only to illustrate that having an interest in the topic does not make me obsessed (as I was accused of being above). I can't be the most extreme case here of a user posting lots on a topic she/he finds interesting? This does seem to be an internet discussion board?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:45 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Sure it's inadequacy. I readily admit I can't bed ladies like GC can. But how am I to know that this lady will indeed reject me unless I advance (and by advance, I mean ask her out for coffee versus grope her after she says no).

So, I ask you out for coffee, even in an elevator. You say no. It's an awkward 30 second ride up, but I don't press further. This is something JREF is obligated to ensure doesn't happen? You will call upon your internet presence to boycott the conference unless this is resolved. Seems mumpish.
So I go to TAM. Some douchenozzle who knows I'm married decides to hit on me in an elevator. I decide to tell the story without mentioning his name and while protecting his identify. Do I then deserve to receive daily rape threats? Seems a bit much.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:45 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
You're like obsessed with Egate. What's up with that?
Just replying to posts that replied to me. Seems like projection on your part?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:45 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
False dilemma. Ladies should make the decision to attend on any number of factors. But, pretending that TAM is more dangerous than similarly-themed events seems suspicious, imo.
I don't think anyone has made that argument. I think the argument went more like "I assumed skeptical events were safe spaces in the LGBT/feminist meaning. Turns out I was wrong and they are just as problematic as other events/conferences which disappoints me."
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:47 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Yes, asking for coffee, even if a pretext for sex, is always creepy when a man strikes while opportunity is knocking (unless of course she consents). I guess that's my problem.
What was the opportunity? A vagina within a 10-foot radius?

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
You know, this was brought up by several people in the elevator thread including myself, and I recall that I literally had trouble believing the responses I read, which were something along the lines of "but what about all the women in elevators who want complete strangers to ask them for sex? How can we just cut them off from having sex at TAMs like that?"
The level of that response is what is keeping me away, and I can't say I'm surprised the number of female TAM attendees is down this year from last.

Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Seems like women care-- perhaps present company excluded-- as I suspect George would get way more hits than EG. That seems to be my problem.
It is your problem if you really think that women are that shallow. I'm sure some are, and George may get a few more takers than any random dude, but honestly, the vast majority of women wouldn't instantly jump in the sack the second a hot male celebrity says, "Care to let me relieve myself sexually into one of your bodily orifices?"

Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Sure if genuine. You don't even need to give a reason. In fact, You're allowed to lie too. Just don't use the lie to claim victimization in a public forum-- that's my point.
Who's doing this? Can you give an example of this? I keep saying that men dismissing women's concerns is keeping at least one woman away, and yet you keep on dismissing those concerns. Oh yes, I'm probably the only woman in the world who wouldn't jump instantly into George Clooney's bed if he propositioned me for sex.......
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:48 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
"opportunity is knocking." Excuse me, I must go barf.
Agreed. The human sex drive is a trivial thing, and even if it takes a village, we will eventually repress it.

I think it's how I respond after you vomit that makes the incident harassment or not.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:50 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
False dilemma. Ladies should make the decision to attend on any number of factors. But, pretending that TAM is more dangerous than similarly-themed events seems suspicious, imo.
You wrote a paper about harassment without understanding the idea of safe space and the chilling effect. Sweet.

Women don't need to be raped in the halls to be turned off. Being constantly told that they will be seen and treated as nothing more than "opportunity" is enough. Being told that complaining about this is verboten for the "good of the movement" is enough. Having no reason to believe that serious complaints will be dealt with is enough. Knowing that repeat offenders are invited back is enough.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:52 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Agreed. The human sex drive is a trivial thing, and even if it takes a village, we will eventually repress it.

I think it's how I respond after you vomit that makes the incident harassment or not.
Oh great now I'm anti-sex. Typical. Why do you consent-deficient folk always have to go there?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:52 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Moss View Post
Not that it does matter in any way as I am not really a skeptic and not attending TAM in the foreseeable future but:
When I first read your post I went "Oh, great, now all males attending have to suffer for some few idiots." That didn't seem quite right though.
(Among other things the rather icky question of why you should attend just for us non douchebag males. Seems like some odd sense of entitlement(? not sure if that is the correct word anyway.) I had going there. Err... )
Next came "Well, it's just a minority that acts like that and just a minority that dismisses these experiences." Which begs the question: Isn't even just a vocal minority too much?
So I quickly moved on to the obvious conclusion: if men are bugged by the nonattendance of women at conferences and the women state that that is because some males are actually harassing them the obvious conclusion is to verbally slap some sense and decency into those males, not finding reasons why it isn't actually all that bad.
But then again most people with more sense than me would have come to that conclusion by now. Oh well...
Sometimes I'm really annoyed by what goes on my mind.
What's going on in your mind is totally cool by me.

And when you said, "people with more sense than me would have come to that conclusion," I think it points to the heart of the issue. As skeptics and rationalists, we pride ourselves on having more sense than other people, and when you find that really smart people are willing to dismiss your concerns because OMG some guy somewhere might not be getting laid right this minute when he really really wants to!11!, then yeah, it points out that if it looks like an oldboysclub and it walks like an oldboysclub....
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:56 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
Bitter, table of one.

Here's the fun part - you don't even mean "women." Because you're not including women who are gay, asexual, or attracted to something other than the George Clooney type. I'm gonna go way, way out on a limb and narrow that down to women = women that are attractive. Before you argue that point, ask yourself "Am I really including non-sexually viable women?"
Agree completely. Hot women get hit on lots more. Gay is mostly immutable in that I can't usually tell your sexual orientation just by looking at you. So, yeah, I'm more likely to hit on an attractive woman (risking she might be gay) than a non-attractive woman. I don't think that needs apology, given the equally vacuous traits that many-- not all-- ladies seem to screen on (you must be tall; I like my heels!).
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:57 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Moss View Post
Not that it does matter in any way as I am not really a skeptic and not attending TAM in the foreseeable future but:
When I first read your post I went "Oh, great, now all males attending have to suffer for some few idiots." That didn't seem quite right though.
(Among other things the rather icky question of why you should attend just for us non douchebag males. Seems like some odd sense of entitlement(? not sure if that is the correct word anyway.) I had going there. Err... )
Next came "Well, it's just a minority that acts like that and just a minority that dismisses these experiences." Which begs the question: Isn't even just a vocal minority too much?
So I quickly moved on to the obvious conclusion: if men are bugged by the nonattendance of women at conferences and the women state that that is because some males are actually harassing them the obvious conclusion is to verbally slap some sense and decency into those males, not finding reasons why it isn't actually all that bad.
But then again most people with more sense than me would have come to that conclusion by now. Oh well...
Sometimes I'm really annoyed by what goes on my mind.
I heart your brains.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:57 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
Yes. Similar. Yes. Accurate.
You might be right. Then again, you might be wrong, and with this level of debate there's no way for me to tell the difference. So I think I'll just sit this one out.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:59 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
So I go to TAM. Some douchenozzle who knows I'm married decides to hit on me in an elevator. I decide to tell the story without mentioning his name and while protecting his identify. Do I then deserve to receive daily rape threats? Seems a bit much.
Nope, completely inappropriate and smacks of bitter maleness. Were you legitimately harassed at the conference, though, and is this the JREF's fault, and is your experience here worse than what you encounter in daily living (while comparing apples to apples re setting)?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 12:59 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Agree completely. Hot women get hit on lots more. Gay is mostly immutable in that I can't usually tell your sexual orientation just by looking at you. So, yeah, I'm more likely to hit on an attractive woman (risking she might be gay) than a non-attractive woman. I don't think that needs apology, given the equally vacuous traits that many-- not all-- ladies seem to screen on (you must be tall; I like my heels!).
"Only women who are hot count, they are responsible for my bonerz, also they are dumb."

And this is the guy who wrote a paper on sexual harassment.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:00 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Moss View Post
I don't think anyone has made that argument. I think the argument went more like "I assumed skeptical events were safe spaces in the LGBT/feminist meaning. Turns out I was wrong and they are just as problematic as other events/conferences which disappoints me."
This is exactly it! (So quit hiding yourself in a box!)


And bpesta, do you actually have a bingo card? Because every time you post, you basically tick off another box....


bookitty, you have been warned. The destruction of the human race is on your shoulders. Why do you insist on people getting to know each other before one asks the other for sex? Don't you know we're on a very narrow time line, and if every single person on the planet doesn't start humping.....RIGHT NOW, no more babies can ever be born?!? So just grab the first available complementary body part and get busy, everybody! I'd better not see any more posts in this thread or every other for at least five minutes.


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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:01 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Nope, completely inappropriate and smacks of bitter maleness. Were you legitimately harassed at the conference, though, and is this the JREF's fault, and is your experience here worse than what you encounter in daily living (while comparing apples to apples re setting)?
Yes, I was legitimately harassed, and I had to fend off a guy who stated his intention to get my friend drunk enough to take to his room. All of the parties had been to several TAMs, I was warned about 2 of them.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:05 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
You wrote a paper about harassment without understanding the idea of safe space and the chilling effect. Sweet.

Women don't need to be raped in the halls to be turned off. Being constantly told that they will be seen and treated as nothing more than "opportunity" is enough. Being told that complaining about this is verboten for the "good of the movement" is enough. Having no reason to believe that serious complaints will be dealt with is enough. Knowing that repeat offenders are invited back is enough.

Yes Princess, you're entitled to a safe space. We men should huddle in asexual corners until you vet us. Approaching anywhere is creepy (unless you consent). Except that it seems like the nice guy gets rejected for the bold guy (at least some bold guys) who are confident enough to approach you in places like elevators. I don't claim the behavior is rational. But what's a man to do? I might be attracted to you, so much so that I approach. You have the absolute right to reject. We should shun this behavior specifically because it's a problem at TAM?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:07 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Yes Princess, you're entitled to a safe space. We men should huddle in asexual corners until you vet us. Approaching anywhere is creepy (unless you consent). Except that it seems like the nice guy gets rejected for the bold guy (at least some bold guys) who are confident enough to approach you in places like elevators. I don't claim the behavior is rational. But what's a man to do? I might be attracted to you, so much so that I approach. You have the absolute right to reject. We should shun this behavior specifically because it's a problem at TAM?
Taking a strawman to dinner doesn't make your table any less lonely.

ETA: For the demographics of TAM I am considered moderately attractive. There were people there who found me appealing. Some of them focused on this aspect alone and were creepy. Others considered it just nice bonus to the conversation we were having and they were not creepy. In both cases, I was aware of the attraction. Sometimes *gasp* it was even reciprocated. This did not end in any sort of sexual contact. When sexual contact was implied, pushed for, or repeatedly mentioned, it was creepy. When sexual contact was the only reason for speaking to me, it was creepy.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:09 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Yes Princess, you're entitled to a safe space.
"princess"? Really?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:09 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
"Only women who are hot count, they are responsible for my bonerz, also they are dumb."

And this is the guy who wrote a paper on sexual harassment.
You're dichotomizing a continuum. fwiw, the paper passed peer review.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:11 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
Taking a strawman to dinner doesn't make your table any less lonely.
We disagree so obviously I am one of them lonely men who can't attract female companionship?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:12 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Sun Countess
Originally Posted by Moss View Post
I don't think anyone has made that argument. I think the argument went more like "I assumed skeptical events were safe spaces in the LGBT/feminist meaning. Turns out I was wrong and they are just as problematic as other events/conferences which disappoints me."
This is exactly it! (So quit hiding yourself in a box!)
I've never been to TAM!, never really wanted to, and this thread is certainly not changing that, but I'm a bit confused how people came to the above conclusion (that skeptical events would be sexual harrassment free).

Having participated in this forum for a few years, and read the descriptions of TAMs past and the fond reminiscences of the merry antics of Drs Adequate and Buzzo I'd always pictured it as fairly seedy, with a high percentage of men who were enormously pleased with themselves but not particularly blessed with social skills.
What gave others a different impression?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:15 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Sun Countess View Post
This is exactly it! (So quit hiding yourself in a box!)


And bpesta, do you actually have a bingo card? Because every time you post, you basically tick off another box....


bookitty, you have been warned. The destruction of the human race is on your shoulders. Why do you insist on people getting to know each other before one asks the other for sex? Don't you know we're on a very narrow time line, and if every single person on the planet doesn't start humping.....RIGHT NOW, no more babies can ever be born?!? So just grab the first available complementary body part and get busy, everybody! I'd better not see any more posts in this thread or every other for at least five minutes.


Why over-dramatize the point? I never claimed this. I only claim that I have the right to approach / you have the right to reject. And, that this behavior is not unique to TAM.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:15 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Yes Princess, you're entitled to a safe space. We men should huddle in asexual corners until you vet us. Approaching anywhere is creepy (unless you consent). Except that it seems like the nice guy gets rejected for the bold guy (at least some bold guys) who are confident enough to approach you in places like elevators. I don't claim the behavior is rational. But what's a man to do? I might be attracted to you, so much so that I approach. You have the absolute right to reject. We should shun this behavior specifically because it's a problem at TAM?
How about men and women treat each other like human beings, and act in friendly ways toward each other? Do you honestly think that the only people who have ever entered into sexual relationships are those who boldly took a chance with virtual strangers? Do you think that the guys who approach women in elevators are the only sexually successful ones? Or do you think maybe just a few people have managed to get to know each other, recognized their mutual attraction, and increased their intimacy with enthusiastic consent? Nobody is telling men to stay in a corner until a woman has given him clearance to enter the sacred ground.

Regarding the highlighted bit: How do you even know if you're attracted to a woman until you've at least spoken to her?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:16 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Why over-dramatize the point?
heaven knows you haven't done that in this thread at all
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:16 PM   #190
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There is a legitimate type of harassment? o_O
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:17 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Lamuella View Post
"princess"? Really?
Yes, really. By the author of a report on sexual harassment.

The mind, it boggles.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:18 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Moss View Post
There is a legitimate type of harassment? o_O
"legitimately harassed' = "harassed to the point where it shines so brightly I can see it through my privilege"
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:19 PM   #193
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I'm sorry, but so much I'm seeing here tastes like that misogyny that so many people are saying Rebecca was over-exaggerating. The notion that women like to punish men for being male and/or socially awkward. That a rejection of an "awkward advance" isnt based on discomfort, but rather women judging the poor hopeful male to be "unworthy". The insistence that women who claim that strangers' propositioning them for sex would make them uncomfortable, would certainly agree instantly "if it was George Clooney". The idea that women would never have decided for themselves based on their own observations and reasoning capacity to not attend a TAM, but rather must've been "scared off by a feminist news article". All of these complete speculations simply stated and argued as axiomatic givens. I see it now.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:19 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
We disagree so obviously I am one of them lonely men who can't attract female companionship?
If you can't, it isn't the fault of the women. Or George "please don't drag me into this" Clooney's.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:27 PM   #195
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Umm... I don't think the issue at hand has anything to do with 'E-Gate'. That incident didn't happen at TAM. The real issue here is how RW has reacted to a comment made by DJ which may or may not have been fair/unfair.

From my perspective, when you become an internet public personality of some reknown, particularly in a specific and active community, you better be willing to stand some heat. Sometimes strategies to deal with these situations include:

- Ignoring the whole thing.
- Calling the individual out on the comment in a public forum (live, in person)
- Writing an article on your own blog/various fora
- Calling for a boycott / publicly choosing to not participate in a specific event
- Picking up the phone and talking to the individual(s) involved and trying to find a common ground.

I think that RW in this case has chosen a strategy that I PERSONALLY would not have selected. There was/is probably a better way to handle the situation for everyone involved, in particular the 'community' as a whole. But its entirely in her right to do so.

Her not attending TAM will have absolutely zero effect on whether or not women feel safe(r) at TAM. Those who are guilty of the harassment (I genuinely believe, a very small subset of the larger group) will continue to operate, presumably on the smaller number of available targets. The terrorists win.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:30 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
I've never been to TAM!, never really wanted to, and this thread is certainly not changing that, but I'm a bit confused how people came to the above conclusion (that skeptical events would be sexual harrassment free).

Having participated in this forum for a few years, and read the descriptions of TAMs past and the fond reminiscences of the merry antics of Drs Adequate and Buzzo I'd always pictured it as fairly seedy, with a high percentage of men who were enormously pleased with themselves but not particularly blessed with social skills.
What gave others a different impression?
For my part, I can only say naivete. I knew there would be a few boors, but it was my thought that men who were more socially progressive would be more accepting of a diverse crowd, similar to what I'm used to from living in cities like Seattle and Vancouver. (Of course there are creeps here too, but it's nothing like what I experienced in the US South, where the racism and sexism were worn as sa-weet badges of pride.) I was hoping for more of the awesome multicultural diversity and less of the pompous blowhardiness from the skeptical community. Especially when some of the top male dogs were talking about how to get more women interested. Oh well. Still hopeful that things will change. Lots of pockets of awesomeness in this thread.





Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Why over-dramatize the point?
That was my response to this:
Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
Agreed. The human sex drive is a trivial thing, and even if it takes a village, we will eventually repress it.
Basically saying that if we don't give all men every opportunity to get laid, we are repressing the entire human sex drive.
Quote:
I never claimed this. I only claim that I have the right to approach / you have the right to reject. And, that this behavior is not unique to TAM.
Why don't I have the right to approach?

Sorry I didn't mean to confuse you further, since you're obviously missing the point. Nobody is saying that men can't approach women (or vice versa) or that it's not okay to hook up when you go to a convention. It's all in the way it's done. If too many men are cold-propositioning women, or sticking their tongue down the throat of every woman they see, then there's a problem. Is it really so difficult for people to get to know each other just a little bit, so they have some degree of confidence that their advances will be accepted? Like, I don't know....start with something smaller and see where it takes you. Hasn't this particular wheel already been invented?
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:31 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
I don't claim the behavior is rational. But what's a man to do? I might be attracted to you, so much so that I approach. You have the absolute right to reject. We should shun this behavior specifically because it's a problem at TAM?
How about meeting someone first? Is she at a bar talking with friends - sit down and talk for a while about whatever the group is talking about. Is she alone? Wait til she's in a public place. Strike up a conversation. Something not along the lines of "Hello, I saw you at the conference and couldn't help but notice you have a vagina; let's ****!" would probably be best.

I mean it's funny, men all throughout history even in the most restrictive societies have somehow managed to get laid, and often. Yet not being welcome to corner a woman in an elevator and ask for it is somehow a clear and present danger to the future of mankind's sex-getting.

Edited by jhunter1163:  Edited for Rule 10.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:32 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
If you can't, it isn't the fault of the women. Or George "please don't drag me into this" Clooney's.
Agreed.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:33 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Sun Countess View Post
For my part, I can only say naivete. I knew there would be a few boors, but it was my thought that men who were more socially progressive would be more accepting of a diverse crowd, similar to what I'm used to from living in cities like Seattle and Vancouver. (Of course there are creeps here too, but it's nothing like what I experienced in the US South, where the racism and sexism were worn as sa-weet badges of pride.) I was hoping for more of the awesome multicultural diversity and less of the pompous blowhardiness from the skeptical community. Especially when some of the top male dogs were talking about how to get more women interested. Oh well. Still hopeful that things will change. Lots of pockets of awesomeness in this thread.



That was my response to this: Basically saying that if we don't give all men every opportunity to get laid, we are repressing the entire human sex drive.
Why don't I have the right to approach?

Sorry I didn't mean to confuse you further, since you're obviously missing the point. Nobody is saying that men can't approach women (or vice versa) or that it's not okay to hook up when you go to a convention. It's all in the way it's done. If too many men are cold-propositioning women, or sticking their tongue down the throat of every woman they see, then there's a problem. Is it really so difficult for people to get to know each other just a little bit, so they have some degree of confidence that their advances will be accepted? Like, I don't know....start with something smaller and see where it takes you. Hasn't this particular wheel already been invented?
Agreed, but I don't think you accurately characterize my position. Could be my writing is unclear.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:35 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
Yes, I was legitimately harassed, and I had to fend off a guy who stated his intention to get my friend drunk enough to take to his room. All of the parties had been to several TAMs, I was warned about 2 of them.
I am also mystified that nothing has been done about some of these well-known attendees. Is there a risk that someone would sue the JREF if they were refused admission?

From your mention of Anita Ikonen, it was TAM8 you went to, which was before the anti-harassment policy at TAM9, so there were no instructions on what to do. However, did you report your experiences to any of the staff?
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